Author Topic: Cameron Solves Debt Crisis  (Read 2346 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ovacikpeedoff

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 622
  • Location: Turkey
Cameron Solves Debt Crisis
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2011, 18:20:26 PM »
Totally agree Fiona, what is so annoying about the last government was that they presided in a time of ecomonic growth and wealth and all they did was squander it away.For most of the the Blair/Brown years the coffers were overflowing with tax revenue and they managed to do nothing with it. If they had left the country with first class transport,education and health systems it would not be too bad.We have none of these. We will have the Labour supporters belly aching that things have got worse in the NHS. They probably have but money has got to come from somewhere.

As people I do not like the current lot as I find Cameron,Clegg and Osbourne smug. But that is not a reason for me to say that I disagree with what they are trying to do.Someone has got to sort out the mess.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 18:22:13 PM by Ovacikpeedoff »

Offline Colwyn

  • Prolific Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6412
  • Location: Bristol
Cameron Solves Debt Crisis
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2011, 18:44:38 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by Firo

Would those who complain /criticise prefer the country to go bankrupt?
Well I can't speak for all critics/complainers, but I wouldn't want the country to go bankrupt. My problem is that Osbournes ill-informed, badly-considered policies seem to me the most likely way of accellerating the bankruptcy possiblity. I think Brown did brilliantly well in first preventing key UK banks from going bankrupt (without simply giving them billions for free as Eurozone Finance Ministers are currently determined to do) and second persuading other major governments to follow suit. Has everybody forgotten that pre the financial collapse, only the first couple of thousand of your earnings was fully protected by Government. The next slice up to £35k was covered at 90%, and anything over that you were to lose entirely. I remember because was preparing for retirement and saw my life savings about to be wiped out. But Brown stepped in and used taxpayers' money to ensure that no private saver in the UK lost a penny during the banking crisis. He then persuaded suffient other government to adopt similar polices so that the feared global banking meltdown didn't happen.

The Coservative Party opposed all of this. They may try to forget, and now say that our national debt was all down to Brown's mismagement of the economy, but this - for me - is lies, damned lies, and Tory lies. And I don't suppose that will change. I thought Brown's Prime Ministership was a disaster, and I know he couldn't smile very well, but how long are the Tories going to go on, and on, and on about this when they are in charge now and are whipping the horses faster and faster towards the precipice?

George, it's not too late to listen to someone who knows about economics. For all our sakes - do it.

Offline desmartinson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2143
  • Location: Turkey
  • Banned
Cameron Solves Debt Crisis
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2011, 19:09:30 PM »
good reply Colwyn, but you forgot to mention how (BRILLIANTLY) Mr Brown did with our gold reserves ;)

Offline Ovacikpeedoff

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 622
  • Location: Turkey
Cameron Solves Debt Crisis
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2011, 20:30:04 PM »
Brown did brillianly he saved the western world so he says. Let us remember how the banks got into this mess. Brown has admitted that the banks were not properly regulated and policed. Who is at fault for that?

British taxpayers had to pay more into our big banks to bail them out than any other country had to pay into their banks. It was poorly regulated British banks that had most exposure to these toxic assets.It goes full circle and finishes back at the same start point of poor regulation of the banking industry.

Colwyn you tell me what any government can do to get out of this mess without introducing hardship. Cameron turned this thing about paying off debt into a fiasco but in truth he is right. You have got to live within your means and rolling up more debt on credit cards finally catches up and it cannot be paid off.People finish up having to go to loan sharks to borrow at excessive interest rates. That scenario for an individual bear up equally for any country. A stage is reached where debt cannot be raised without having to pay for it and bond markets react by expecting excessive yields.

Austerity measures do work.Ireland got it itself into a terrible state and had an ECB bailout. As part of this bailout conditions it had to slash public spending. Although not out of the woods the green shoots of recovery are being seen. The economy is seeing growth and the recent unemployment data has shown a stabilisation in the market.The IMF are now saying it is the model that needs to be adopted.

The UK has not yet seen the worst as todays economic data highlights. Whatever government is in power all they can do is move the deckchairs around. The boat will still sink until some fixes the hole.In the UK economy that is excessive government debt.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 20:32:39 PM by Ovacikpeedoff »

Offline usedbustickets

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2859
  • Age: 67
  • Institute for the hard of understanding
Cameron Solves Debt Crisis
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2011, 10:13:46 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by desmartinson

Well said Fiona, the one thing Blair and Brown did for me was they made up my mind to get out of Britain,so sad to have to leave your country, but just couldnt stand being screwed anymore, so much for the working mans party.:(



And welcome to economically successful Turkey, where the government does not try to screw its people ;)

Offline desmartinson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2143
  • Location: Turkey
  • Banned
Cameron Solves Debt Crisis
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2011, 11:30:40 AM »
you obviously dont live here Peter ;)

Offline BM06

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1087
  • Location: England
Cameron Solves Debt Crisis
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2011, 12:33:52 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by desmartinson

you obviously dont live here Peter ;)

And you obviously have not lived here very long Des ;)

Offline Colwyn

  • Prolific Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6412
  • Location: Bristol
Cameron Solves Debt Crisis
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2011, 14:52:59 PM »
OPO

Again, I agree with your economic analysis but not with the political one; agreeing with economic cause and effect but not about at whom to point the finger.

Of course the banks were under-regulated and poorly regulated. From my perspective, all British governments over the last fifty years have done far too little to control capitalism. In doing so we have allowed the development of a fairly extreme form of capitalism that, whilst not identical to that of the USA, is sufficiently like it to justify the term Anglo-American capitalism. There are different ways of doing things. The economies of Germany and France, for example, follow rather different models of capitalism and many people in those societies see the banking collapse as a failure of precisely this Anglo-American capitalism. Under-regulation of the finance sector in the UK runs directly from Thatcherism, through the Major lacuna, and on through the New Labour years. Brown is as reprehensible as all the other chancellors in this. (A caller to a phone-in radio programme this morning reminded the audience that when profitability was high, and the country was enjoying "the good times" the government disastrously allowed businesses to take a "pension holiday" to avoid paying employer's contribution. I remembered this happening but I couldn't remember which government was involved. It could have any of them).  Brown may have been worse than most due to the pathological fear of New Labour that they might be thought of as hostile to business, and thus be seen as just like old Labour, and hence unelectable. This is one of the main reasons why I have never voted New Labour.

On the question of bringing down the debt. Of course this needs to be reduced, in fact one of the notable things about Brown's early years as Chancellor was his bringing down of the National Debt; a policy for which he was attacked by people who couldn't see what the problem was as long as the UK could pay off the interest.  I haven't heard anyone seriously arguing against debt reduction. Only the most naive would assume this could happen without hardship. The issues for disagreement are what should be speed and depth of debt reduction, and what the balance should be between this and economic growth. For eighteen months Ed Balls has been saying that the Coalition policy has got both issues wrong - and I agree with that. It is interesting that now even that orthodox neo-liberal institution the IMF is urging governments to put more emphasis on growth. The phrase "double dip recession" is appearing more frequently in discussions of market analysts.

You also use the analogy of individual/household economic action being like government/country action. I am very suspicious of any such analogies - but perhaps that's for a separate post.

Offline Ovacikpeedoff

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 622
  • Location: Turkey
Cameron Solves Debt Crisis
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2011, 17:16:48 PM »
Colwyn, I do not totally disagree with what you are saying and we have much more in common than we may think. My main point is that Osbourne seems to be the man that is taking the blame for what is happening and that is not right. The whole of the developed world is in trouble. The US, France, Germany and Japan are also in deep trouble and we all seem to be heading for a double dip recession.We are in uncharted waters and we have never seen such instability since the depression. The IMF, the ECB, the Fed or the BOE do not have a cast iron solution to what we are encountering.

The world is on a roundabout and has not found a way to get off it. Cut the debt slows the economy down. Spend your way out of the recssion and we are back to where we started.The IMF, a few weeks ago, were saying Osbourne has got it right. Then there was a slight change in the IMF view in what he is doing is right but he should have this famous plan B. Now the IMF is talking about growth.The argument with debt reduction is the speed that it is done. Debt is like a cancer how much of it can you cut away and the patient still survives. What you do not want to do is have to perform the same operation twice.Equally if you are not careful you can cut away healthy tissue.

France and Germany are now heading into the realms of serious debt problems because they are the main carriers of raising the bailout funds for the Eurozone.

We can debate and argue over the flaws in capitalism and whether it has failed or not.The alternatives to capitalism have also collapsed. In the developed countries I do think that the main cause of the current situation is greed. In the Uk an attitude has developed that wealth is no longer earned and it is a given right.Most governments have actually pushed this ideal and have financed by borrowing. You might be surprised with this comment but Thatcher was one of the fundemental developers of this attitude. It has carried through all governments since. I remeber when I bought my first TV as I saved up for it. This attitude is old fashioned and now it is do not bother waiting just go and get it on tick. It is now I am Ok and sod the rest of you. We have become very materialistic.



Offline Highlander

  • Lord of the Rings
  • Prolific Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21645
  • Age: 72
  • Location: Dingwall, Ross-shire (God's Own Country)
Cameron Solves Debt Crisis
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2011, 22:07:18 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by desmartinson

Well said Fiona, the one thing Blair and Brown did for me was they made up my mind to get out of Britain,so sad to have to leave your country, but just couldnt stand being screwed anymore, so much for the working mans party.:(



Des - I was wondering if you would care to expand/explain that in a little more detail please




Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf