Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum

General Topics => All things that have nothing to do with Turkey => Topic started by: davybill on July 09, 2018, 07:43:37 AM

Title: Brexit
Post by: davybill on July 09, 2018, 07:43:37 AM
 :'( :'Davd Davis resigns with 2 other Government Brexiteers,
what a mess at the moment.
 8) 8) 8) :-\ :-\
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on July 09, 2018, 09:29:17 AM
At the moment ?  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Colwyn on July 09, 2018, 09:34:12 AM
...................(http://britishexpat.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/rat-suitcase.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Anne on July 09, 2018, 10:48:10 AM
It beggars belief that these morons are paid to run this country on our behalf.
God help us is all I can say :(
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on July 09, 2018, 15:13:43 PM
Boris has packed is bags also.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on July 09, 2018, 15:14:27 PM
Who is the alternative?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Colwyn on July 09, 2018, 15:24:02 PM
I suppose he sees a chance to enhance his ambitions to become PM via whatever skulduggery available.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: marina on July 09, 2018, 15:46:16 PM
God help us.   : :)  :o
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: sadler on July 09, 2018, 16:08:31 PM
I suppose he sees a chance to enhance his ambitions to become PM via whatever skulduggery available.



Surely not! At such a crucial period in our soon to be history!  Possible Personal advancement, Boris would never have the shallowness to try that!  Pigs flying very low over my house at the moment.   ;) ;D >:(
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Colwyn on July 09, 2018, 16:17:15 PM
Don't worry Sadler, he'll be lying down in front of bulldozers at Heathrow very soon - if he's not urgently required in Afghanistan at the time.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on July 09, 2018, 18:25:45 PM
Looks like we’re crashing out with no deal.
Did they really think the EU would bend over backwards to help us.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on July 09, 2018, 19:05:32 PM
Well this is the most shocking news story involving Davis and Johnson since the Crucible in 86.

Paul Sinha
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: sadler on July 09, 2018, 19:13:01 PM
Do you think she has been snookered?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Colwyn on July 09, 2018, 20:57:01 PM
Who is the alternative?
If you meant the alternative to Davis we now know that it will be Dominic Raab. Now I am prepared to believe that Davis Davis is an honourable man. Not very bright perhaps, and wrong-headed, but not self-scheming and basically decent (unlike the former Foreign Secretary). But his replacement, Raab, seems a really nasty piece of work. A  Foreign Office lawyer who is against equality laws, women's rights (he said men were getting a rough deal!) and human rights laws. So that's what scraping the Tory barrel came up with.

If you meant the alternative to a Theresa May "leadership" of the Tory Party my guess is if the Brexit headbangers forced a leadership vote they would lose it.  So the alternative is May or May.

If you meant an alternative government then it is obvious. Let's get Labour in ASAP before the Tories bollix things up even more.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Anne on July 10, 2018, 10:40:31 AM
We're too far down the line for an election Colwyn, either way we are well and truly scuppered.  UK is now the laughing stock of the world.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on July 10, 2018, 10:45:49 AM
UK is now the laughing stock of the world.

Nothing new there. We've had the pi** taken out of us for decades !
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on July 10, 2018, 11:59:33 AM
Let me see?

A No Deal Brexit OR Corbyn as PM?

No deal please! Walk away on WTO terms and leave our card with Barnier. Tell him to call us when he wants to talk business.



Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on July 10, 2018, 16:15:49 PM
Anything but Corbyn.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on July 10, 2018, 17:07:10 PM
Corbyn would be worse than Brown. Does not bare thinking about.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on July 11, 2018, 18:06:17 PM
Anti Semite Naz Shah is made shadow Equalities Minister by Corbyn!

The woman who shared a post on Twitter last year that told Rotherham abuse victims to ‘shut their mouths for the good of diversity’.

I don’t think Labour have learned anything.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on July 12, 2018, 07:19:36 AM
If criticising Israel’s treatment of Palestinians is anti Semitic, mea culpa.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: JohnF on July 12, 2018, 07:54:42 AM
I think its worth pointing out that being a critic of the State of Israel does not make one an antisemite. 

JF
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on July 12, 2018, 13:43:48 PM
Whatever - but retweeting that Rotherham’s abused girls should shut their mouths for the sake of diversity is disgusting!

It’s what I’ve come to expect from the left though.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: saoirse on July 12, 2018, 19:31:51 PM
One good thing that could come out of the hilarious  Brexit debacle is the implosion of the Tory party.
Vieweing this tragic comedy is  great entertainment
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on July 17, 2018, 10:59:34 AM
No deal is going to be catastrophic for the U.K. 
India and Turkey say they’ll do a trade deal in exchange for freedom of movement, which is ironic as a lot of brexiteers voted out to stop freedom of movement.
Many companies have already left our shores, and many will follow.
If we think America is ready to do a deal, think again.  I fear any deal would depend on their huge corporations moving in on our NHS;  why else would Trump be so keen on Brexit.  I’m also not keen on chlorinated chicken, and hormone fed beef.
WTO rules would require a very hard border in Ireland, which would cost millions to police, and also a return to the troubles.
Why has Rees Mogg moved his business to Southern Ireland, I wonder?  I suspect him and his millionaire mates are scared of the EUs proposed action on tax evasion next year.
It’s a nightmare.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Stuart T on July 17, 2018, 17:49:13 PM
How could we, as non - politicians, possibly make such an important decision on behalf of a whole nation without fully understanding the consequences?

A blooming cop out by Cameron who was in no doubt about the outcome. Of course we wouild remain. All sensible politicians from all sides knew that it was the only possible outcome.

The remainers were virtually silent throughout the whole campaign, so assured were they of the end result.  Smug and arrogant, of course the country would make the sensible vote and remain.

The exiteers loaded big guns with a strong emphasis on reduced immigration and the promise of a load of money we could keep in our own coffers. As net contributors to Europe we were told of great advantages to Portugal, Ireland etc. at Britain's expense.

Still many were undecided. Then Boris put his twopence worth in and with it came the approval of many who follow this formerly very popular figure. It lent credence to an exit vote.

Nonetheless, we were never prepared for an exit vote bugt the public didn't know that.

We thought there was a post Brexit strategy.

Immediately the Prime Minister, Chancellor et al resign and a new (remainer) Prime Minister is brought in.

Now, everybody's resigned and been replaced.

Look at the bloody chaos now.

We had no Plan 'A' for an exit vote let alone a 'B' or 'C'.

It took us all by surprise.

Can we have a revote please on the understanding that not a single exit person ever foresaw the full extent of the political carnage that would follow?





Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on July 18, 2018, 06:33:49 AM
Agree 100% Stuart.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on July 18, 2018, 10:24:25 AM
How many revotes will come after that Stuart? as it seems none of the Government understand it, and im positive
the Public don't understand it. its a bit like prison its easy to get in, but bl--dy hard to get out. >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Diverbaz 1 on July 18, 2018, 11:01:55 AM

After Camoron resigned there should have been a Brexiteer Prime Minister and cabinet, those that believed in what they were doing, not, the try and please everybody and end up pleasing nobody brigade.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Stuart T on July 18, 2018, 13:34:17 PM
davybill - only one.

The remain vote would, I am sure, be something of a landslide with a big sigh of relief.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on July 18, 2018, 15:52:08 PM
So we would have another vote to try to reverse the vote we have already had because remainers are not happy. Should we do the same at every general election until we are all agreed on the winning party? The vote was leave so the will of the majority should be carried out.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: saoirse on July 18, 2018, 16:02:39 PM
When you say leave- leave what exactly?

The Customs union? The single market? Either? Both? Neither?

Even if you ask 5 different brexiteers you will get 6 different answers
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: JohnF on July 18, 2018, 16:31:56 PM
So we would have another vote to try to reverse the vote we have already had because remainers are not happy. Should we do the same at every general election until we are all agreed on the winning party? The vote was leave so the will of the majority should be carried out.

This arrangement seemed to work well in Turkey (2015).

 :)

JF
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Stuart T on July 18, 2018, 20:57:35 PM
1 calis:The "will of the majority" was created by falsehoods and misrepresentation.

The Brexiteers were sold a pup and the remainers stood idly by and watched in disbelief as it happened. They then scattered to the four winds.

If those supporting Brexit had such a good outcome to present why has it all gone arse up now?

Where are the confident politicians who supported Brexit?

The politicians are the experts(!) in this and they are far better qualified through experience and traning to make this sort of decision on behalf of the nation. WTF do the rest of us know about it apart from what we read or hear?

The Brexiteers believed the lies. They believed that there was a plan to succeed.

Surely this nullifies the referendum - there never was a clear understanding of what we voted for.

In a general election we can remove the winning party after four years.


saoirse: we were told we would be leaving a very expensive club that offered far cheaper rates to members who had little or no money to put in but could reap the full  benefits of the wealthier ones e.g. Britain.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on July 21, 2018, 19:53:39 PM
No lies from the remain side? 
Brexıt ıs goıng well as long as T.May does not give everything Eu wants.
The publıc can make their own descisions. Perhaps you need politıcians to decide for you but I do not.
UK ıs doing fine. We will be free from EU soon.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Stuart T on July 21, 2018, 20:58:17 PM
The remain side, if anything, was worse. Smugly sat by and confidently waited for the British public to vote remain. I feel as much let down by them as the Brexiteers.

Huge anticipation answered when Boris put his political weight behind Brexit. He persuaded a lot of fence sitters. For the longest time I was an undecided voter. I was a blooming reluctant one too because I did not know enough about it.

Then shock, horror. The lies and falsehoods worked.

Cameron and his buddies didn't want any part of this fiasco and resigned. "Nothing to do with me, Guv. I'm off".

All the Brexiteer politicians would now be able put their well thought out plan in place.

....and there wasn't one. Neither politician nor plan.

Cometh the hour cometh blooming nobody.



The public make their own decisions at election time, not in matters of state or national interest like declaring war or joining the Common Market.

I do need politicians to make political decisions on behalf of the country. We should never have been asked because we don't know enough about it. Cop out by Cameron.

I don't know enough to fully understand what's best for the country's economy.

I did make the mistake and voted to leave. Looking at the shambles that remains I regret doing it.

I thought they had a plan...........I believed the hype.


Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: peter16 on July 22, 2018, 01:05:24 AM
1calis, I do believe there was a referendum in 1975 that was "won" by the "remain in the union" group. Going by your "rules" then there shouldn't have been another vote because after all the "will of the majority" must always prevail. Obviously leavers do not wish to follow the same rules they foist on others, democracy is not a one shot choice, people can change their minds as more facts come to be known. We older citizens should remember that it is our children and grandchildren that will suffer for the Leavers dreams of utopia, unicorns and a return to the days of the empire.
 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on July 22, 2018, 08:26:30 AM
What will your children suffer from,does anybody know?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ray1951 on July 22, 2018, 15:04:42 PM
It’s becoming clearer now. No deal woul mean no flights being allowed to enter Eu airspace, certain foods not allowed to be imported /exported into/from the UK and worst of all specific medicines, including vital cancer drugs not available in the U.K.  These are FACTS not scaremongering.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on July 22, 2018, 15:36:25 PM
The 1975 referendum was about the EEC which ıs completely different from the EU of today.
No deal has yet been negotiated so nobody knows about flights foodstuffs etc yet.
I am old enough to remember that we were ok without EU membership. We do not need EU ruling us. We will survive on WTO rules.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Diverbaz 1 on July 22, 2018, 18:13:28 PM
It’s becoming clearer now. No deal woul mean no flights being allowed to enter Eu airspace, certain foods not allowed to be imported /exported into/from the UK and worst of all specific medicines, including vital cancer drugs not available in the U.K.  These are FACTS not scaremongering.

What a load of tosh.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Scunner on July 22, 2018, 18:19:58 PM
Ray come on, raise your game - what a load of rubbish. I am truly shocked that there are people who actually believe and share this nonsense.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on July 22, 2018, 18:41:25 PM
It’s becoming clearer now. No deal woul mean no flights being allowed to enter Eu airspace, certain foods not allowed to be imported /exported into/from the UK and worst of all specific medicines, including vital cancer drugs not available in the U.K.  These are FACTS not scaremongering.

Clearly a Grieve fan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tk86kiwJW8I
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Scunner on July 22, 2018, 18:59:17 PM
Clearly an idiot
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on July 23, 2018, 07:42:08 AM
Some important questions:
Why has Jacob Rees Mogg moved his business to Southern Ireland.

(JRM stated yesterday that it could take 50 years for Britain to see the benefit of Brexit)

WTO rules would definitely mean a hard border in Ireland.  Who will pay for this, both the fences and the manning of border posts?

Why did Raab refuse to answer the question of whether the U.K. was stockpiling food?

How long will it take for the U.K. to broker a deal with Japan;  the EU has just done so, but we won’t be part of it after next March.

What will happen to U.K. citizens living and working in the EU?  At present, they’re covered by reciprocal health care.  Methinks a lot of them will return after selling their homes cheaply, and be unable to buy here.

We import a lot of food from the EU.  Will we have to charge tariffs on those foods? 

Who will pick fruit and harvest vegetables when all the EU workers go home. (A lot already have)

How many jobs will be lost when big firms relocate?

Answers, please.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: peter16 on July 23, 2018, 09:02:28 AM
LindseyMitchell. You will sadly wait a long time for answers to your questions, a very long time if you want sensible answers. Future generations will wonder why we as a nation were so stupid and/or blind (to give up their peace and prosperity). The mythical land of milk and honey they seek has never existed and for little Britain it never will.
 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ray1951 on July 23, 2018, 12:01:42 PM
These are factual reports, provided by politicians and people in the know. I don’t take kindly to being referred to as an idiot. You have no respect but I have come to expect this from certain forum members.your way or no way.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on July 23, 2018, 12:15:06 PM
Love the way you combined "factual" and "politicians" in the same sentence there Ray. A very rare occurence.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on July 23, 2018, 12:42:03 PM
It’s becoming clearer now. No deal woul mean no flights being allowed to enter Eu airspace, certain foods not allowed to be imported /exported into/from the UK and worst of all specific medicines, including vital cancer drugs not available in the U.K.  These are FACTS not scaremongering.

It’s precisely this sort of scare mongering crap that made so many people vote to leave.

The EU have no right in aviation law to ban us from their airspace. Google it if you want.

As for a no deal. Leaving with one on WTO rules has guarantees that the EU will not be able to shaft us. I think it’s ten years from leaving that they have to abide by current trade rules. They also cannot legally block the movement of goods to and from the EU. WTO rules don’t allow that.

A no deal would be just as ‘devastating’ for many EU countries (Ireland especially) as it would be for the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ray1951 on July 23, 2018, 16:18:56 PM
MILLIONS of Brits could see their holidays cancelled next year as the EU is refusing to discuss an emergency aviation deal in a Brexit “no deal” scenario.

Without an emergency Plan B, thousands of flights from the UK to Europe could be cancelled if talks between our government and Michael Barnier’s team collapse before March 29, 2019.

 Aviation leaders need at least nine months to create an emergency plan in event of a 'no deal' but Brussels won't negotiate until March deadline.

Taken from The Sun but other newspapers are reporting the same.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ray1951 on July 23, 2018, 16:21:42 PM
Britain could be hit with food and medicine shortages within two weeks of leaving the European Union if a Brexit deal isn't reached, a new government study has claimed.

A 'doomsday' scenario for a no-deal Brexit has been drawn up which paints a terrifying picture of what Britain could be forced to endure when the country leaves the EU.

Senior civil servants have speculated on three different scenarios for possible Brexit outcomes – one mild, one severe and one they have called 'Armageddon'.


READ MORE
Pressure mounts on Corbyn to back new Brexit referendum
A source told The Sunday Times: "In the second worst scenario, not even the worst, the port of Dover will collapse on day one.

"The supermarkets in Cornwall and Scotland will run out of food within a couple of days, and hospitals will run out of medicines within two weeks."

The source added that the RAF would have to be used to transport emergency medicine to the far corners of the UK and warned that the country would also quickly run out of petrol.

A spokesperson for David Davis' Brexit department said such discussions had taken place, but denied that the doomsday scenario would occur.

Brexit threatens life on the Irish border: in pictures

Taken from the Idependent but other newspapers are reporting the same.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: JohnF on July 23, 2018, 16:28:59 PM
Food parcels can be sent from here in Spain of all those things you'll miss...


... oh wait, they won't get delivered.

  :)

JF
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on July 23, 2018, 16:31:01 PM
Written by the same civil servants that wrote the government pamphlet sent to everyone? We all know how true their doomsday scenario turned out. Cannot believe the remainer civil servants.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on July 23, 2018, 17:02:48 PM
MILLIONS of Brits.........

Ray1951 - do you remember this

(https://s22.postimg.cc/ysu61rz5p/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ysu61rz5p/)

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Scunner on July 23, 2018, 18:11:34 PM
I have come to expect this from certain forum members.your way or no way.

Yes you are only allowed to post opinions that agree with ours.

Like the one you posted here, which disagrees with ours and was deleted.

Oh hang on, it’s still here.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: JohnF on July 23, 2018, 20:50:03 PM
Well, as far as I'm concerned, [deleted for not following the party line].

JF
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Stuart T on July 23, 2018, 22:06:06 PM

(https://s33.postimg.cc/i6oebtfln/victory.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/i6oebtfln/)


Starting now.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on July 24, 2018, 07:22:52 AM
I love Europe;  French cheese, Italian food, German sausage, Belgian beer, Spanish tapas, lovely wines, beautiful architecture and scenery, the freedom to travel without border checks, and mostly friendly people. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on July 24, 2018, 11:27:47 AM
I love Europe;  French cheese, Italian food, German sausage, Belgian beer, Spanish tapas, lovely wines, beautiful architecture and scenery, the freedom to travel without border checks, and mostly friendly people. 

Pray tell me how do you enter an EU country without a border check?

I'll wait .....................................................

As for the rest - I'm fairly certain they will still allow you to buy them after we leave.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on July 24, 2018, 16:16:17 PM
There are too many rumours going the rounds just now. No deal has been agreed so nobody knows the outcome. Only guesswork. Obviously EU goods will still be available but perhaps with an import duty added. Neither the world,nor the UK, are going to crash after brexit. We managed without EU for centuries, we can do so again.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on July 24, 2018, 17:11:23 PM
Last year, I went on a coach trip.  We sailed from Hull to Rotterdam, and drove through Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, and finally to Germany.
I showed my passport once, on the ferry.
As far as I can see, we’ll have to rely on Trump’s America;  chlorinated chicken, hormone fed beef, GM crops;  no thank you.  I like Danish bacon, French and Italian wines, dairy foods from Holland, and meats that are EU certified as safe.  These things will carry duty, so will become a lot more expensive.
Rees Mogg actually said yesterday (I’ve seen the interview) that it would be 50 years before we had any financial benefit, by which time most brexiters will have popped their clogs.
Title: Brexit
Post by: Scunner on July 24, 2018, 19:55:28 PM
Obviously EU goods will still be available but perhaps with an import duty added.

How would they get here, what with there being no flights between Europe and the UK?

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on July 24, 2018, 21:08:18 PM
Container ships, like now, Scunner, except most of Kent will be a lorry park waiting for goods to be verified and duty to be paid.
I was talking to someone in our hotel who lives in Kent, and plans for said parks are well underway.  They’ll be huge.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on July 24, 2018, 21:16:17 PM
I freely admit to not knowing much, if anything about Brexit, but can someone advise me as to what affect a "no deal" will have on the EU countries and why they would want it.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Scunner on July 24, 2018, 21:19:57 PM
Container ships, like now, Scunner


Oh I see! So all these cargo planes coming in from across Europe are empty?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on July 24, 2018, 23:10:12 PM
Highlander, the impact on the 27 will be serious. It will impact on some more than others. Some countries like Ireland, Denmark and The Netherlands will be hardest hit. The UK will be hit much harder because 43% of exports to go the EU. In the case of The EU as a block 9% is exported to The UK.

The greatest achievement of the EU is the single market and customs union. The supporting regulations ensure that a company can sell its goods in London, Rome, Berlin or any other country within the EU without incurring additional tariffs. Goods can be moved around the EU without the need for customs posts and checking giving unfettered access to 500 million customers. The single market not only just refers to exports and I ports but it includes all regulations and directives that are the basis of the EU.  Health and Safety,employee rights and the working hours directive are the ones that most people have heard of.  The SM and CU reduces costs and administration by applying one set of rules. When the UK leaves then Dover and other ports will become virtually gridlocked as customs checks will probably be introduced. There will be the introduction of tariffs and reams of customs documentation. Tariffs are not uniform and are determined according to the type of goods. For example cars carry a tariff of 10%. These costs will eventually passed into the consumer. Sticking with cars the costs will be higher. We live in a world of interdependence. Cars made in Sunderland are really assembled there. Parts come from all over the EU and could make several journeys back and forth. Each time that a part goes back and forth will incur a tariff. This will add to the final cost of the product. The estimated cost to business could exceed £4 billion.


The EU also regulates what can and cannot be imported into the EU. GM cereal and chlorinated chicken are just a couple of examples as mentioned earlier.

Why is the EU taking the stand that it is taking?

The EU is protecting the integrity of the single market and the customs union. If every country goes off and does its own thing then the SM and the CU are irrelevant. The EU is built on 4 freedoms. The movement of goods,services, capital and people. These freedoms underpin the SM. The UK wants to have its cake and eat it by selecting what they want and discard the rest.

There has been a discussion on aviation and there has been some made some that do not know what they are talking about. Aviation has been been the major success of the single market. The consumer has certainly benefited with lower fares and more flights. Prior to 1987 there were major restrictions on who could fly where. Flights into major airports were virtually a cartel. Prices were set by the airlines and competition non existent. The opening of the sky's by the EU changed all that. Once the UK leaves the EU then this agreement opening will no longer be valid. In Dec 2017,the European Commission wrote to all airlines stating that UK airlines would no longer enjoy traffic rights under any agreement to which the EU is  a party to. UK airlines may not be able to fly to Europe or fly between member states. Britian could have less than 9 months to negotiate a new agreement.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on July 24, 2018, 23:44:51 PM
On a personal note some of you may be aware that I and 3 others started a company concentrating on financial risk management. We became reasonably successful helping small financial institutions  meet their statutory obligations. Most of our customers are EU based.

We spent a great deal of time exploring what would be best for the company. We decided in the end to relocate. In March, we finally moved most of the company to Ireland. We moved to a town with a technology institute.The IDA was superb and did so much to help the company find premises etc. We now have a large pool of resource and expertise that we can draw from. We lost some staff but we retained our key employees. They appear to be happy because financially they are much better off. They have been able to buy properties at a fraction of the cost. They all spend a maximum of 30 minutes driving to work. We renegotiated their contracts to ensure that salaries were stated in Euros.

Last month, i retired from the company and sold my shares to a trust set up for the benefit of employees. I sold the shares for the amount i had invested. Eventually all the shares will finish up in the trust.

I thought it would give memory time for doing the things I never had time to do before but that is not the case.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on July 25, 2018, 06:03:07 AM
Great posts, Ovacikpeedoff.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on July 25, 2018, 06:08:52 AM
Go up and down any UK motorway, Scunner, and see how many EU artics there are.  For many firms, this is way cheaper than airlifting goods.
The flower shop near me has an articulated lorry delivering plants and flowers every week from Holland, and the owner is seriously worried.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Scunner on July 25, 2018, 08:20:02 AM
Lindsey

One question

Do you believe that after Brexit you will not be able to fly to and from the UK to EU countries?

I’m not even disputing that lots of goods arrive in the UK by road.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on July 25, 2018, 09:01:37 AM
Scunner, it is one of the big uncertainties. The answer is nobody knows. Most people think that easyjet just flies from the UK but that is not so. Easyjet operates internally throughout Europe. Easyjet will be operating outside the single market and those routes within the EU could be cut off. Same will apply to other airlines like Virgin and Flybe.You also need to remember the biggest beneficiary of open skies was the UK. Many airlines have arrived on the scene since 1987. There is even a question of ownership of BA as it is part of IAG. If the situation was to get very nasty then yes flights to and from Europe could be seriously impeded as technically aviation would revert back to pre 1987 with cartels and limited landing slots. The compensation rules would also disappear because they are enshrined in EU law and enforced through the ECJ.

In the early 90s the EU through EASA (I think) took over the role of aviation regulation and compliance. Next to nuclear aviation is the most highly regulated industry. EASA is responsible for safety and the issue of licenses in the UK and not the CAA. EASA makes the rules. The UK is nowhere near replicating EASA and as a result many aircraft could be grounded. When the UK was a member of the EU it had a say on the writing and implementation of regulations and directives. This will stop.

The big sticking point will be juristicion. The UK will no longer be bound  or accept ECJ rulings.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on July 25, 2018, 09:02:03 AM
Yes, of course we will, but flights will be less frequent and s lot more expensive.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on July 25, 2018, 12:23:16 PM
Yes, of course we will, but flights will be less frequent and s lot more expensive.

Who says? It's all speculation.

I'm pretty certain that the likes of Spain, France, Portugal, Greece, Italy and other countries that do very well out of British holidaymakers won't take kindly to us being banned from taking our holidays there.

It's all hot wind. There will be a deal on the things that really matter because, as daft as it sounds, the EU will suffer just as badly if no deal is reached. Ireland will be one of the worst hit and their little man in charge threatening to ban our planes from their airspace should have checked with his defence minister first and then checked where most of the flights from Dublin go to and who's airspace they use.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on July 25, 2018, 12:28:00 PM
Last year, I went on a coach trip.  We sailed from Hull to Rotterdam, and drove through Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, and finally to Germany.
I showed my passport once, on the ferry.
As far as I can see, we’ll have to rely on Trump’s America;  chlorinated chicken, hormone fed beef, GM crops;  no thank you.  I like Danish bacon, French and Italian wines, dairy foods from Holland, and meats that are EU certified as safe.  These things will carry duty, so will become a lot more expensive.
Rees Mogg actually said yesterday (I’ve seen the interview) that it would be 50 years before we had any financial benefit, by which time most brexiters will have popped their clogs.

No the quote was this:

Rees-Mogg: “We will know at some point, of course we will. But it’s a question of timescale.”

Guru-Murthy: “So how long have you got?”

Rees-Mogg: “We won’t know the full economic consequences for a very long time, we really won’t.”

Guru-Murthy: “Of course not, but I mean we’ll have an indication. We’ll know if there’s been chaos, we’ll know if there have been job losses.”

Rees-Mogg: “The overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years.”
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on July 25, 2018, 12:29:37 PM
 "and meats that are EU certified as safe."

Such as the horsemeat they sent us disguised as beef?

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on July 25, 2018, 12:33:15 PM
I freely admit to not knowing much, if anything about Brexit, but can someone advise me as to what affect a "no deal" will have on the EU countries and why they would want it.

They don't want it. It's only Junker and his cronies who are looking to punish us for daring to leave their little club. Many of the 27 will suffer worse than us if there is a no deal.

As far as I can see the UK has been pretty flexible in negotiations - yet the EU have dismissed everything as unworkable. It's almost like they want a no deal and the unrest that it will cause across Europe.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on July 25, 2018, 13:09:05 PM
The current forecast is that our GDP will shrink by 3.5%, and EU countrys’ bt 1.5%.
Thing is, they can trade with each other, being near neighbours, and they have trade deals in place with other non EU countries.  We have no one at present.
Trump said he’d sign a deal, but this would include their disgusting foodstuffs, and probably an in to our NHS;  Jeremy Hunt has already had meetings with American insurance companies, and Mrs May has refused to rule out American involvement in our health service.
India and Turkey are willing to talk, but any deal would include free movement of their citizens, and could take years to sort out.
As least the horsemeat was safe horsemeat, which caused zero health problems;  some people refuse to eat pretty animals for some reason.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Stuart T on July 25, 2018, 15:03:11 PM
Cats, dog, insects, guinea pigs etc. are standard fare in some countries.

Indeed, insects are the future "super food" according to "some experts".

Not sure you'd eat those Lindsey.

Not for me, I'm afraid.

Not yet ready for that.

I've eaten horsemeat in Belgium and France with no problem but I understand those who don't.



Mother loved rabbit but wouldn't eat squirrel.

Nothing to do with prettiness.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on July 25, 2018, 15:14:36 PM
We traditionally don’t eat other meat eaters, so that would rule out dogs and cats, but I would have a go at most other things.
I was once called a bambi eater when I ordered venison!  It was lovely. 
I trust European meats because the EU has strict hygiene and humane killing legislation.  Wonder if we’ll ditch these laws after Brexit. 
I’ve been to America three times, and found their food bland and sweet, with ridiculously huge portions.  They don’t seem to have a cuisine of their own. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: scorcher on July 25, 2018, 15:18:07 PM
Hamburgers and apple pie for starters......
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on July 26, 2018, 07:16:21 AM
Wow, hamburgers eh, America’s version of haute cuisine.
My mother used to make apple pie every Sunday;  we never thought of it as an American pudding.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: scorcher on July 26, 2018, 08:30:16 AM
Wow - no mention of "haute" eh in your post. I've worked all over America and had some fantastic meals but as you say and I agree that portions are often daunting.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ray1951 on July 26, 2018, 11:02:32 AM
I love reading everyone’s views on this and ‘yes’ we really do not know what the outcome will be but I’m positive it won’t benefit the majority of people. IF there are disruptions or price hikes on flights and holidays, IF there are shortages of certain foods and commodities, IF there are this that and t other.  This time next year we will be able to, hopefully think positively and say ‘it’s better than we thought’.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: saoirse on July 26, 2018, 11:46:17 AM
I think thats wishful thinking bordering on naive

The half who voted Remain are still going to be remainers regardless of the degree of impact this nonsense brings and certainly in Scotland and the North of Ireland where most people voted remain there won't be a rallying around the misguided chinless wonder Rees Mogg/ Johnson  type self serving loons

The break up of the UK has certainly taken a step forward
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on July 27, 2018, 05:50:18 AM
I think the problem of the Northern Ireland/Republic Border wasn’t even thought of.
A No Deal, which looks on the cards right now would mean a hard border, despite Mrs May’s assurances.
Lots of people who live near the border cross it daily to go to work;  this will become increasingly difficult.
Will we see a return of unrest and violence?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: saoirse on July 27, 2018, 06:57:33 AM
I do not think in the short term we will see any immediate upturn in violence

However there are already well-advanced plans for legal civil disobedience and organised action to remove any infrastructure apparatus or technology sited to enforce a border.

 Whilst we welll know that the chinless wonder Bullingdon types would struggle to find Ireland on a map let alone understand or care about the imposition of a hard border the determination not to have lives turned upside down is galvanising support against Brexit and in favour of unity

On a lighter note to underline the absurdity of trying to enforce a border I highlight a couple of scenarios which the bumbling jingoists need to get their head around

The border despite the way it looks on your tv weather maps is not a straight line. It runs through rivers towns even buildings. A pub ( now closed) had the unusual feature whereby the main lounge was in the North with the ladies loos in the South

One village has the border right along the white lines on one of its streets- the sight of a red post box ( Royal Mail)  on one side of the street facing a green one ( An Post) on the other is  often snapped by tourists.

Farmers fields straddle the border and in some areas if a hard border were to be imposed there could be up to a 11mile journey for the land owner to go from one field to the next

There are literally hundreds of crossing points and during our conflict the British army even blew up many of the roads to make them impassable. However with the ingenuity and determination of locals, Sundays often saw ' Road opening community days" whereby locals and supporters would gather to fill in the holes caused by the British army

Bottom line whilst the British never have and never will understand Ireland they have excelled themselves in the bungling bizarre ill thought out Brexit re the border
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on July 27, 2018, 08:32:59 AM
Great to get an Irish viewpoint, Saoirse.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on July 27, 2018, 09:52:38 AM
Well with Catholics and Prodisans  will Ireland understand their selves?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: saoirse on July 27, 2018, 09:55:01 AM
Lol-We are a complex lot Davy!!!!!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: sadler on July 27, 2018, 16:13:58 PM
 
Well with Catholics and Prodisans  will Ireland understand their selves?


Or even Protestants!   :)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on July 27, 2018, 21:31:39 PM
Well done Sadler.10 out of 10 for spelling shows u are a  lert😎😎😁
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on July 28, 2018, 00:53:29 AM
I do not think in the short term we will see any immediate upturn in violence

However there are already well-advanced plans for legal civil disobedience and organised action to remove any infrastructure apparatus or technology sited to enforce a border.

 Whilst we welll know that the chinless wonder Bullingdon types would struggle to find Ireland on a map let alone understand or care about the imposition of a hard border the determination not to have lives turned upside down is galvanising support against Brexit and in favour of unity

On a lighter note to underline the absurdity of trying to enforce a border I highlight a couple of scenarios which the bumbling jingoists need to get their head around

The border despite the way it looks on your tv weather maps is not a straight line. It runs through rivers towns even buildings. A pub ( now closed) had the unusual feature whereby the main lounge was in the North with the ladies loos in the South

One village has the border right along the white lines on one of its streets- the sight of a red post box ( Royal Mail)  on one side of the street facing a green one ( An Post) on the other is  often snapped by tourists.

Farmers fields straddle the border and in some areas if a hard border were to be imposed there could be up to a 11mile journey for the land owner to go from one field to the next

There are literally hundreds of crossing points and during our conflict the British army even blew up many of the roads to make them impassable. However with the ingenuity and determination of locals, Sundays often saw ' Road opening community days" whereby locals and supporters would gather to fill in the holes caused by the British army

Bottom line whilst the British never have and never will understand Ireland they have excelled themselves in the bungling bizarre ill thought out Brexit re the border


The obvious answer is that it’s not just our border. So we go no deal and let the EU sort it out.

Any trouble is then on their head.



Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: saoirse on July 28, 2018, 07:31:54 AM
Exactly the type of narrow view little Englander thinking that has contributed to the current Brexit mess
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on July 28, 2018, 10:44:59 AM
So if people are killed or wounded, their families will have the solace of knowing that it wasn’t Britain’s fault. 
There’s a great article in today’s Independant about our first day of leaving the U.K. with no deal.  No scaremongering or project fear, just a realistic description of what will happen.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on July 28, 2018, 11:44:54 AM
There’s a great article in today’s Independant about our first day of leaving the U.K. with no deal.  No scaremongering or project fear, just a realistic description of what will happen.

So, The Independent's not scaremongering........ much, is it ?

All of a sudden it's changed from from what COULD happen, to what WILL happen.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Scunner on July 28, 2018, 12:01:38 PM
I hope what WILL happen won't include any British ministers flying to Brussels to negotiate a new trade deal. What with there being no more flights anymore.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ray1951 on August 13, 2018, 12:29:24 PM
http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/309548/no-deal-brexit-warning-on-flights

Worth a read. Informative, NOT scaremongering, just preparing for “possibilities”.
Title: Brexit
Post by: Scunner on August 13, 2018, 12:43:20 PM
Not ‘facts’ then this time.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ray1951 on August 13, 2018, 14:57:07 PM
Oh how I wish I was as perfect as you and some of your cronies.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Scunner on August 13, 2018, 17:09:14 PM
Long way to go yet Ray, keep trying though :D

I don't have any cronies as far as I know though.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: saoirse on August 13, 2018, 17:52:43 PM
Its all gonna work out spiffingly

How would anyone ever doubt the word of self serving bullingdon toffs ????

When I witness the crass naivety of some I def think there's a market in England for selling magic beans

Am convinced the Tory chinless wonders put something in the drinking water for so many normally rational people to swallow the Brexit guff
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on August 13, 2018, 20:54:04 PM
Totally agree Saoirse x
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on September 26, 2018, 14:54:35 PM
Some people will refuse to believe the tide is coming in until their feet get wet.

Government admits No Deal will ground UK aircraft. (http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/09/26/now-even-the-government-admits-it-no-deal-would-ground-our-a)

"Brexiters will accuse the EU of parading itself in all its vicious, vindictive ugliness and punishing the UK for having the audacity to leave the club. It is not. The EU is a rules-based, supranational organisation which depends on laws and agreements to function at any level. If it abandoned its legal order it would fall apart. In a no-deal scenario, the UK would become a third party without any ties to Brussels. London would effectively be instructing Brussels to void any pre-existing UK-EU agreements and the EU would be obliged to comply. The hardliners want a 'clean Brexit' and that is what it means."

Leaving the EU means cheaper food, right?

Wrong. Dim leaver MP calls the EU a "Protection Racket", then proceeds to get royally owned. (https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-mp-daniel-kawczynski-shrewsbury-lemons-tesco-twitter-trade-tariffs/)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on September 27, 2018, 07:53:23 AM
You should be a MP, Villain, no one else knows whats happening,
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on September 27, 2018, 08:44:57 AM
You're too kind. However, all I know is that in 2016, David Davis told us there would be "no downsides to Brexit, just considerable upsides" and yesterday, the Government appointed a new Minister to deal with post-Brexit food shortages.

Doesn't seem very consistent to me.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on September 27, 2018, 15:50:10 PM
We haven't left yet so everything is supposition.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on September 27, 2018, 17:37:44 PM
Here's some Brexiter supposition for you:

Professor Minford - the leading pro-brexiter "Economist for Brexit" (note use of the singular) that Rees-Mogg etc. lauds, says Brexit will ruin UK manufacturing and farming, and thinks this is a good idea.

Rees-Mogg himself proudly proclaims that the benefits of Brexit will take about 50 years to occur.

Got any good supposition?

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on September 28, 2018, 09:08:25 AM
Here's some Brexiter supposition for you:

Professor Minford - the leading pro-brexiter "Economist for Brexit" (note use of the singular) that Rees-Mogg etc. lauds, says Brexit will ruin UK manufacturing and farming, and thinks this is a good idea.

Rees-Mogg himself proudly proclaims that the benefits of Brexit will take about 50 years to occur.

Got any good supposition?



More remainer lies! Try reading what he actually said instead of listening to the idiots who twist it for their agenda!

Jacob Rees-Mogg said “The overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years”

That’s what he said. Nothing more and nothing less. Nowhere did he say it will take fifty years to see the benefits.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on September 28, 2018, 12:50:20 PM
Here's the video. Watch for yourself. He was doing nothing but weaseling out of the personal consequences when it all goes horribly wrong by not specifying any date within the next 50 years when the Sunlit Uplands finally come into view (i.e. after we're all dead)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My4UM_zCpk0

What are those opportunities exactly, anyway and why will they take up to 50 years to occur?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on September 28, 2018, 17:13:22 PM
Stoop, you really need to change the record. Everything is remained lies or project fear. Never hear you own up to the lies that got us into this situation. Where are the 70 million Turks and Albanians? Where is the £350m? Where is the trade deal that was promised to be the easiest thing to negotiate? Why has sterling headed south? Where is the cake that Johnson promised? Why is foreign investment at its lowest level since 2011? Why is the car industry slowing down?

Just answer these and I will give you a load more questions to answer.

I am really sick of Farage, Moggie, Johnson and all the others who do a great deal of shouting but when they are asked to put meat on the bone as to what the UK will look like in the future all they do is spout about opportunities. They go on about free trade agreements with the Commonwealth. Many commonwealth countries already have preferential treatment because of they are classified as developing countries.

All of this so called project fear in relation to food shortages, medicines, aviation has been fully supported by papers issued by the Brexit Dept.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on September 28, 2018, 17:29:36 PM
Stoop, you really need to change the record. Everything is remained lies or project fear. Never hear you own up to the lies that got us into this situation. Where are the 70 million Turks and Albanians? Where is the £350m? Where is the trade deal that was promised to be the easiest thing to negotiate? Why has sterling headed south? Where is the cake that Johnson promised? Why is foreign investment at its lowest level since 2011? Why is the car industry slowing down?

Just answer these and I will give you a load more questions to answer.

I am really sick of Farage, Moggie, Johnson and all the others who do a great deal of shouting but when they are asked to put meat on the bone as to what the UK will look like in the future all they do is spout about opportunities. They go on about free trade agreements with the Commonwealth. Many commonwealth countries already have preferential treatment because of they are classified as developing countries.

All of this so called project fear in relation to food shortages, medicines, aviation has been fully supported by papers issued by the Brexit Dept.




Change the record? Are you having a laugh?

I saw that interview live and I’ve seen the full transcript. The interviewer was trying to catch out Rees-Mogg and like many before him he failed.

I was pointing out Villains incorrect statement and it’s you who needs to change the LP as far as I’m concerned.

I’m not even going to give the time of day to your questions because we haven’t left yet nor have we agreed a deal with EU. Come back in five years and see where we are once we’ve left - with or without our £39 billion.

Have a nice weekend. Not long until the end of a March now  :)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Scunner on September 28, 2018, 18:08:52 PM
You would prefer us to be out before you will discuss all the bull**** used to secure our decision to be out? Makes sense.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: nichola on September 28, 2018, 20:51:26 PM
It makes you wonder why a second investment fund has been set up in Ireland by the City firm co-founded by Rees-Mogg after the Financial Times warned earlier this year about the financial dangers of ‘hard Brexit’ if leaving is such a great opportunity.

Perhaps he just fancied a change of scenery    ;)

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on September 28, 2018, 23:56:34 PM
It makes you wonder why a second investment fund has been set up in Ireland by the City firm co-founded by Rees-Mogg after the Financial Times warned earlier this year about the financial dangers of ‘hard Brexit’ if leaving is such a great opportunity.

Perhaps he just fancied a change of scenery      ;)



Perhaps you need to check the facts on that. Google is quite good I hear.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on September 28, 2018, 23:58:26 PM
You would prefer us to be out before you will discuss all the bull**** used to secure our decision to be out? Makes sense.

What bul****? I’ll wait.

And don’t wheel out the £350m bus again please!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Scunner on September 29, 2018, 00:16:09 AM
Why not?

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180928/79bcde627946de6f4a622ed6495e5cbb.jpeg)

Uncomfortable?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on September 29, 2018, 07:03:00 AM
It will all be sorted in the end. OR will it?😮😮😎
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: nichola on September 29, 2018, 07:57:33 AM
It makes you wonder why a second investment fund has been set up in Ireland by the City firm co-founded by Rees-Mogg after the Financial Times warned earlier this year about the financial dangers of ‘hard Brexit’ if leaving is such a great opportunity.

Perhaps he just fancied a change of scenery       ;)



Perhaps you need to check the facts on that. Google is quite good I hear.

Perhaps YOU should check the facts stoop...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: nichola on September 29, 2018, 08:17:55 AM
More fabricated nonsense from the Farage Leave Team

(https://i.postimg.cc/phMgzmCp/IMG_0683.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/phMgzmCp)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: nichola on September 29, 2018, 19:29:52 PM
The governments own secret Brexit analysis suggests a “no deal” scenario, under which Britain reverts to World Trade Organization rules, would reduce UK economic growth by 8 percentage points over the next 15 years compared with current forecasts.

https://www.ft.com/content/b3d35136-0543-11e8-9650-9c0ad2d7c5b5
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ray1951 on September 30, 2018, 17:31:49 PM
Commenting on Brexit or sharing info that has been highlighted in the press, isn’t worth sharing on here because there are some people who try to shoot you down in flames.  What will be will be and personally, I think if you prepare for the worst, then if it’s not as bad as expected, it doesn’t hit you as hard.  I’ve given up commenting or sharing too much on here as it’s often classed as scaremongering.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Scunner on September 30, 2018, 17:53:02 PM
Commenting on Brexit or sharing info that has been highlighted in the press, isn’t worth sharing on here because there are some people who try to shoot you down in flames.

It's a discussion forum Ray, who knew
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Menthol on September 30, 2018, 22:08:41 PM
Glad you referenced that last post, Nichola. Or you may have been accused of not doing your research.

I genuinely hope the Brexiteers are right and the UK becomes a much better place. Unfortunately absolutely no evidence I have seen indicates that will be the likely scenario.

You know those blue birds that fly over the white cliffs of Dover? Do they taste nice in a pie? We may need to adapt our diets.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 01, 2018, 10:40:07 AM
"We've been very clear..."


Marr: ”If we leave the EU without a deal, doesn’t there have to be a hard border in Ireland?”

May: “We’ve been very clear that we do not want to see a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland.”

Marr: “But if we leave without a deal, that does mean a hard border, doesn’t it?”

May: “We are committed to making sure that we can provide a guarantee to the people of Northern Ireland.”

Marr: “But if we leave without a deal, you can’t guarantee there won’t be a hard border, can you”?

May: “We are working to make sure that we leave with a good deal.”

Marr: “But if we leave without a deal, there will be a border in Ireland, won’t there?”

May: “If we leave with no deal, we as the UK Government are still committed to do everything that we can to ensure that there is no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland.”

Marr: “But you’ll inevitably fail, because, according to World Trade Organisation rules, there has to be a border. Shouldn’t you level with people and explain that?”

May: “As the UK Government, we remain committed to doing everything we can to ensure no border between Northern Ireland and Ireland.”
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 15, 2018, 11:27:34 AM
Brexit explained through the medium of cakes - by Gary Bainbridge.

LEAVER: I want an omelette.

REMAINER: Right. It’s just we haven’t got any eggs.

LEAVER: Yes, we have. There they are. [HE POINTS AT A CAKE]

REMAINER: They’re in the cake.

LEAVER: Yes, get them out of the cake, please.

REMAINER: But we voted in 1974 to put them into a cake.

LEAVER: Yes, but that cake has got icing on it. Nobody said there was going to be icing on it.

REMAINER: Icing is good.

LEAVER: And there are raisins in it. I don’t like raisins. Nobody mentioned raisins. I demand another vote.

DAVID CAMERON ENTERS.

DAVID CAMERON: OK.

DAVID CAMERON SCARPERS.

LEAVER: Right, where’s my omelette?

REMAINER: I told you, the eggs are in the cake.

LEAVER: Well, get them out.

EU: It’s our cake.

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes, get them out now.

REMAINER: I have absolutely no idea how to get them out. Don’t you know how to get them out?

LEAVER: Yes! You just get them out and then you make an omelette.

REMAINER: But how?! Didn’t you give this any thought?

LEAVER: Saboteur! You’re talking eggs down. We could make omelettes before the eggs went into the cake, so there’s no reason why we can’t make them now.

THERESA MAY: It’s OK, I can do it.

REMAINER: How?

THERESA MAY: There was a vote to remove the eggs from the cake, and so the eggs will be removed from the cake.

REMAINER: Yeah, but…

LEAVER: Hang on, if we take the eggs out of the cake, does that mean we don’t have any cake? I didn’t say I didn’t want the cake, just the bits I don’t like.

EU: It’s our cake.

REMAINER: But you can’t take the eggs out of the cake and then still have a cake.

LEAVER: You can. I saw the latest Bake Off and you can definitely make cakes without eggs in them. It’s just that they’re horrible.

REMAINER: Fine. Take the eggs out. See what happens.

LEAVER: It’s not my responsibility to take the eggs out. Get on with it.

REMAINER: Why should I have to come up with some long-winded incredibly difficult chemical process to extract eggs that have bonded at the molecular level to the cake, while somehow still having the cake?

LEAVER: You lost, get over it.

THERESA MAY: By the way, I’ve started the clock on this.

REMAINER: So I assume you have a plan?

THERESA MAY: Actually, back in a bit. Just having another election.

REMAINER: Jeremy, are you going to sort this out?

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes. No. Maybe.

EU: It’s our cake.

LEAVER: Where’s my omelette? I voted for an omelette.

REMAINER: This is ridiculous. This is never going to work. We should have another vote, or at least stop what we’re doing until we know how to get the eggs out of the cake while keeping the bits of the cake that we all like.

LEAVER/MAY/CORBYN: WE HAD A VOTE. STOP SABOTAGING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. EGGSIT MEANS EGGSIT.

REMAINER: Fine, I’m moving to France. The cakes are nicer there.

LEAVER: You can’t. We’ve taken your freedom of movement.

https://garybainbridge.com/2018/10/10/column-october-11-2018/
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: AOK on October 15, 2018, 16:37:42 PM
yawn :-X :-X
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on October 15, 2018, 17:46:21 PM
Well, there's one "journalist" I won't be following in future.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on October 16, 2018, 08:55:28 AM
Great post, Villain. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 16, 2018, 19:39:31 PM
Seeing as I finally have a fan on the site (cheers, Lindsey!)

Here's another I spotted.

UK: We’re off.
EU: OK.
UK: But we need the trade.
EU: Here’s some models that work well.
UK: Yes please.
EU: Which one?
UK: All of them!
EU: Er, all of them?
UK: Yes, none of them.
EU: What?
UK: The benefits of each and the costs of none.
EU: You can’t cherr-
UK: OMG! Bullies!

(@NoCake4Brexit)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on October 17, 2018, 16:54:13 PM
The way the EU is treating the UK suggests there will be no deal. Let's see how the remoaners laugh at that.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on October 18, 2018, 06:55:43 AM
Did anyone think the EU would give us an easy ride;  the current situation could have been predicted two years ago, without recourse to a crystal ball or Mystic Meg. They’re not being bullying or overly recalcitrant, they’re being realistic.
Try ringing, say, Sky and telling them you want to leave them, but you still want three of their channels without paying for them.  See how far you get.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: saoirse on October 18, 2018, 07:36:11 AM
Sadly if anything its even worse. They want to end their subscription still get the channels plus tell Sky how to run their business!!

Alas I think we are wasting our time even highlighting the obvious to brexiteers as, bless them, they appear to inhabit a flawed nostalgic  world of Britain still having  an empire, ruling the waves, being the workshop of the world etc- delusional sad and daft in equal measures.

Meanwhile back on 21st century planet earth one cannot fail to have sympathy for EU negotiators- as one put it yesterday " how can we reach an agreement with UK when they have yet to reach an agreed position amongst themselves?"

Accurate frank and blunt in equal measures
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on October 18, 2018, 10:48:56 AM
Brexit means Brexit patience is a virtue.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on October 18, 2018, 11:29:04 AM
I’ve been patiently waiting since June 2016.
Is there a glimmer of hope of an agreement?
Is there a logical solution to the border with Ireland that would be agreeable to the DUP?
No one seems to mention Gibraltar.
Are any of May’s plans agreeable to Rees Mogg and Boris et al?

Even the most committed Brexiteer will admit that we’ll be worse off with a no deal, but it looks like that’s where we’re heading.  Putting off the inevitable as May is suggesting is just delaying what will happen next March.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on October 18, 2018, 11:39:30 AM
Gibraltar's sorted apparently. They're going to put a towrope on it and drag it out to The Azores.   ;)

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1031964/brexit-news-gibraltar-spain-ireland-border-latest-eu-summit
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: saoirse on October 18, 2018, 12:02:59 PM
I’ve been patiently waiting since June 2016.
Is there a glimmer of hope of an agreement?
Is there a logical solution to the border with Ireland that would be agreeable to the DUP?
No one seems to mention Gibraltar.
Are any of May’s plans agreeable to Rees Mogg and Boris et al?

Even the most committed Brexiteer will admit that we’ll be worse off with a no deal, but it looks like that’s where we’re heading.  Putting off the inevitable as May is suggesting is just delaying what will happen next March.

Lol
  Never r seen that before- attempting to put logical and DUP in same sentence!!

Ffs these throwbacks believe the earth is only 5000 years old, kids shouldn’t play on a Sunday and homosexuality should be illegal!!!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: yabanci on October 18, 2018, 13:32:37 PM

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZW4xXC34/bf.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZW4xXC34)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on October 18, 2018, 16:20:03 PM
Problem for UK is May will not stand up to Barnier. She gives in to EU. A brexit MP should be leading negotiations not a remainer. She is trying to keep UK in EU as long as possible until the referendum result is forgotten then we will not leave.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on October 18, 2018, 17:12:54 PM
She can stand up to Barnier all she likes, but it wouldn’t make one iota of difference.  He’s got four aces, and she’s got four under ten.
We have virtually no manufacturing here apart from assembling foreign cars, and the owners are already threatening to move to Europe.  What would the EU miss in the way of imports from the U.K.?
If it weren’t for the financial sector in London and Edinburgh, we’d have been sunk years ago.
You try to buy a British made t shirt, suit, car, white goods, chocolate or medicine.  Our trains, water and utility companies, and to a large extent banks are foreign owned.
Don’t get me wrong, I love my country, and can see the EU needs reform, but remaining is our least worst option.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ray1951 on October 18, 2018, 19:56:29 PM
Wonderful, isn’t it?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 19, 2018, 10:14:57 AM
The way the EU is treating the UK suggests there will be no deal. Let's see how the remoaners laugh at that.

I don't get that at all. Perhaps you could explain why you feel somehow bullied.The EU's negotiating position has been crystal clear from the start. They even posted this image (below) in December last year to help explain it to Primary School children and UK Cabinet Ministers. Which relationship with the EU would you like?

(https://i.postimg.cc/nCp6Xpqx/ladder.png) (https://postimg.cc/nCp6Xpqx)

I think at least the Primary School children understand the situation now. The Cabinet, however is unfortunately still struggling to grasp the concept of the Backstop agreement that they already signed up to.

P.S. Calling remainers "remoaners" is is just so old and really, really pathetic.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on October 19, 2018, 12:01:07 PM
There has been peace in Ireland for decades now.
If there is a no deal exit, there’ll have to be a hard border between the Republic  and Northern Ireland, stretching some 310 miles from coast to coast
Without this border, we would be unable to trade under WTO rules, with anyone.
The likelihood is that the troubles would start again in earnest, rising the lives of civilians and our armed forces once again.
That what you want?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 19, 2018, 12:05:43 PM
A bit sweary, but good

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPfxSEdUtFk
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on October 19, 2018, 16:51:00 PM
Perhaps you could explain why you feel somehow bullied.

  Where did I say the EU is bullying the UK? I am sure even primary school children would agree I did not state there was any bullying.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 20, 2018, 00:24:11 AM
The way the EU is treating the UK...

OK. Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick, but perhaps you could expand on this? In what way is the EU treating the UK exactly?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on October 20, 2018, 15:29:12 PM
We voted to leave the EU but the EU is making the demands on the withdrawal process. Barnier refuses every option put forward by UK.
Why do we let EU control the withdrawal process?.

Tusk mocks the UK and May. You may not like her but she represents us to the world.
Why do we accept an unelected,by population, minister to mock us as if we are second class?

We need to take control. Barnier is no longer favourite to replace Juncker. Germany,France,Spain and Italy in particular will not want a no deal brexit. They need to export to the UK more than the UK needs to export to them. Eu needs our contributions. Why stay linked to EU paying more each year but having no input into their descisıons?
 Time to leave.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on October 20, 2018, 19:53:25 PM
The EU is not making demands. It is the UK that is making demands. The UK is leaving the club. The EU has been totally consistent from the outset. It is the UK that even at this stage that has not stated what it wants. We had the bulls**t of Johnson with we will have our cake and eat it. Rees Mogg and his fantasies. David Davis who spent 2 years negotiating with the EU and his suggestion is leave and negotiate free trade with each EU country. Poor little Englanders are throwing their toys out of their prams, crying and complaining that Barnier will not give us what we want. Get rid of Johnson and then appoint Hunt who has compared the EU to being like the Soviet Union during the cold war. Many counties in the EU are former satellites of the USSR and are greatly offended by the comparison. The EU has not taken thousands of Latvians as prisoners or killed them. The Latvian ambassador has been very vocal in her response to Hunt's statement by saying that joining the EU has brought growth and prosperity to her country. The British papers have not been slow in insulting EU leaders.

The backstop was agreed in writing by May nearly a year and because she cannot and will not stand up to the bully boys in the Tory party she has changed what she agreed. How can anyone negotiate with someone who agrees a policy, goes back to London and then wants to change it because the fanatics in the Tory party will not accept it.. There is this stupid belief that they need to export to the UK more than the UK export to the EU. What utter nonsence and total leavers bull.UK accounts for about 5% of EU exports. EU accounts for 44% of UK exports. Yes, it will cause discomfort in the EU  but it will be small in comparison what will be  the impact in the UK. It is a well documented fact that inward investment in the UK has seriously tailed off in the past 18 months and mostly due to Brexit uncertainty. 82% of cars assembled in the UK last month went to the EU. It will not be long before investment in new car models will lead to a movement of production into the EU. Scottish fishermen who were pro Brexit are not happy because they no longer will be able to land their catches in the EU without major inconvenience. Funny really that the fishermen have blamed the EU for everything. Most of the catch finishes up in the EU. Also it was not the EU but the British government who sold off fishing licenses to big firing fishing companies.

The recent technical papers issued by the government has put the potential impact of a no deal into perspective.

I hear so much about control of money, control of borders and democracy. The £350m is gone. On the one hand the UK is saying they will not put a hard border in Ireland and they will trade under WTO rules. Alas without a border WTO trading is not possible. On democracy what about the rights of the Scots? They did not vote to leave the EU. Equally in 1921, the UK showed little respect for Ireland when it an artificial border was installed  when at least 80% of the population supported a full break from  from the UK. I could go on about the Good Friday Agreement and its importance. I will keep it for another day?

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on October 20, 2018, 21:35:20 PM
If the Eu are not making demands then we should just leave with no deal but EU wants UK contributions. They want to cherry-pick and have their cake and eat it.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on October 20, 2018, 22:10:54 PM
Absolute rubbish. The UK needs a deal more than the EU. It is the UK wants to cherry pick. Want frictionless trade without being a member of the club and not complying with the club rules. I wish these people who make such comments read unbiased papers and not take everything the rags like the mail and express spout out. To the EU the single market is sacrosanct. It is not perfect but it is by far the biggest frictionless trading block in the world. It ensures goods can travel through 28 borders without interference. This also ensures maximum cost savings to suppliers and consumers. This is what British business wants to retain. The single market ensures that supplies are available immediately. It ensures that companies like Nissan do not to tie capital up in holding unnecessary excess stocks. It i
ensures a continuous supply and not having parts spending days/ weeks stuck in ports or stack parked on the motorway. No deal will ensure that exports will attract tariffs and pages of customs documentation. The government technical papers have highlighted that UK produced cars may not be sold in the EU because they will not have the appropriate certificates. Any company selling into the EU may have to adopt a two tier production. One ensuring compliance with EU regs and the other complying with UK regs.

One of the greatest supporters and probably the pushiest person supporting the establishment of the single market was Thatcher.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on October 20, 2018, 22:16:21 PM
On the question of contributions the UK is legally bound to honour it's committments to the end of this budget cycle plus contribute towards British costs. Who do you think should pay Farages pension of 70 grand a year from being an MEP. Also all the British civil servants working within the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on October 20, 2018, 23:42:20 PM
I have strenuously tried to avoid commenting on this but can the people who highlight the possible negative effects of UK exports to the EU advise me on the possible effect of EU exports to the UK .
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on October 21, 2018, 07:27:59 AM
Great posts, Ovacikpeedoff.  You should read them, Highlander, they’re intelligent and accurate, as are Villains. 
All I would add is how long do we think Nissan and Toyota are going to carry on in the U.K. when their supply chains are unreliable and intermittent, and huge amounts of new paperwork is going to be needed.
Ditto Vauxhall.
We have just completed a trade deal with Singapore;  it took eight years to complete.
Mrs May has refused to rule out the NHS being included in any American trade deal.  It would be beyond foolish to believe that America would do special deals with us because of our traditional alliances;  as far as I can see, the relationship has consisted of America asking us to jump, and us asking ‘how high?  Trump wants to MAGA and is being very protectionist;  any deal would, I am sure, be very much in America’s favour.
It has to be said also that in the unlikely event Mrs May does cobble an agreement together, it will have to be signed off by all the other member states, who have a right of veto, and by our Parliament, who are irrevocably divided on both sides.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: saoirse on October 21, 2018, 15:17:15 PM
Cannot understand any Scot supporting Brexit- (hopefully it will lead to Independence for Scotland and unity for Ireland)

Indeed both Mayhem and Boris- during their Vote No campaign in the Scottish Indy Ref- said one of the main reasons Scotland should stay in the UK was......their continued membership of the EU!!!

Consistency and Tories eh!!!!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 21, 2018, 16:54:52 PM
I have strenuously tried to avoid commenting on this but can the people who highlight the possible negative effects of UK exports to the EU advise me on the possible effect of EU exports to the UK .

In 2016, 43% of UK exports went to the EU. However an additional 12% of our exports went to countries with whom we have Free Trade Agreements with as part of The Customs Union.

53% of the UK's imports came from the EU.

About 8% of the EU’s goods and services exports to EU and non-EU countries went to the UK in 2016. Some EU countries such as Ireland and Holland would be disproprtionately adversely affected if trade was disrupted, but some other countries would be much less affected.

I suggest the facts speak for themselves. If trade was disrupted between the  UK and EU it would undoubtedly affect all parties - but overall us far more than them.

There's more info here:

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on October 21, 2018, 17:11:07 PM
(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t301/KayaKoyuWalker/Mansize.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 21, 2018, 17:53:43 PM
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1030419/M26-traffic-latest-closed-Kent-travel-Brexit-lorry-park
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on October 21, 2018, 20:38:30 PM
If we end up with no deal, we’ll all be crying, KKOB
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 22, 2018, 09:43:15 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45931537

"Businesses are becoming exasperated at the lack of progress in Brexit talks and are pausing or cancelling investment in the UK.

A week that many had hoped would bring progress in the talks has now come and gone without a breakthrough.

Employers group the CBI says 80% of surveyed members feel Brexit uncertainty has already had a negative impact on investment decisions."
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on October 22, 2018, 10:49:23 AM
Can anyone list for me the advantages of a no deal Brexit?
I can think of many, many disadvantages, but not one advantage.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on October 22, 2018, 12:24:49 PM
I know I will probably regret this but what deal is the EU offering the UK ?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 22, 2018, 12:54:06 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/nCp6Xpqx/ladder.png) (https://postimg.cc/nCp6Xpqx)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on October 22, 2018, 13:08:48 PM
Why would they bend over backwards to give us a good deal, John;  we’re leaving them.  See my analogy about Sky - if you told them you were leaving them, would you expect them to offer you their movie channels for nothing, and a say in their future content?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on October 22, 2018, 13:28:51 PM
See my analogy about Sky - if you told them you were leaving them, would you expect them to offer you their movie channels for nothing, and a say in their future content?

But Sky is run by a complete bunch of are5oles...................... Oh, wait a minute...................
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 22, 2018, 13:29:25 PM
The trouble is that we, the UK, the Cabinet, the government, the Conservative Party, and parliament all can't agree on what we do want.

Meanwhile, on 29th March, if there is no deal, more 750 International treaties and agreements that allow this country to function cease to be. These agreement cover everything from transportation of nuclear materials, to air and sea travel, customs and trade agreements. Our response? Do absolutely nothing other than turn the M26 into a lorry park.


(https://i.postimg.cc/34Jn9Xmb/Screenshot-20181022-132444.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/34Jn9Xmb)

https://www.ft.com/content/f1435a8e-372b-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on October 22, 2018, 13:32:53 PM
Do absolutely nothing other than turn the M26 into a lorry park.

I think the Highways Agency should be congratulated for doing something proactive for a change.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on October 22, 2018, 14:13:04 PM
Why would they bend over backwards to give us a good deal, John;  we’re leaving them.

Because they export 53 % to us ?. What happens to that if there is no deal.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on October 22, 2018, 14:28:17 PM
Yes they do, and will continue to do so, except that we’ll have to charge import tariffs.  40% of our food comes from Europe, and I will be paying a lot more for my Camembert, wine, pasta, chorizo, Danish bacon, Irish pork, Belgian chocolate.
Still, I will be able to buy American chlorine soaked chicken, hormone fed beef and other horrors of their ‘cuisine’.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 22, 2018, 14:41:01 PM
Why would they bend over backwards to give us a good deal, John;  we’re leaving them.

Because they export 53 % to us ?. What happens to that if there is no deal.

53% of our imports might come from the EU, but that trade represents just 8% of total EU27 exports.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on October 22, 2018, 15:37:00 PM
Are you happy about great swathes of Kent becoming in effect a lorry park.  Our friends who live there aren’t.

I forgot to mention drugs before, which will have to spend hours in said park, including Dutch insulin and French isotopes for cancer treatment. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on October 22, 2018, 16:39:55 PM
What should the UK do if the deal offered by the EU is crazy ?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on October 22, 2018, 16:40:37 PM
This magnificent trade deal with Trump will not include British meat products. For the past 30 plus years British beef cannot be exported to the US because of mad cow disease. The recent cases in Scotland will prolong that ban.

What really saddens me what has happened to the country that I loved. The UK had its problems but it seems to gone backwards. Back to the days of No Blacks, No Irish and No dog signs on B&Bs. The days of hatred and intolerance. From a country that looked outwards to one that is looking inwards and wants to draw up the bridge. As part of the EU the UK was a big influencer. We saw the battles over the budget but common ground was found. The EU has a major role in world affairs and now the UK wants to withdraw and finish up as one of those little countries that will be ignored.

The days of the empire are gone and there is little point in trying to recreate them. I listen to Johnson and co going on about German influence. Some people still think of Germany as the enemy. Let us never forget history but we have to move on. All I hear is we will strike our own trade deals here there and everywhere. We need to look at ourselves and ask why Germany sells 5 times more to the US, China, India and most other countries in the world. Being innthe EU is not an impediment  to Germany. In fact it is a benefit because anyone trading with Germany knows about the need to comply  with EU standards. We need to stop blaming others and start to realize we might not be as great as we think we are. I worked in Germany for a year and the ethos applied there is so much more positive than the UK. Here there is such a stigma applied to the type of job you do.  The suit and tie jobs carry so much status than your factory operative.The person at the bottom is just the skivvy and has nothing to add. There is no real incentive to buy in to work. It is not always cash it is being appreciated. More emphasis is put on shareholder value than investment. The shame is the UK can hold its own on development with any country in the world. But that development finishes up in other countries. Sometimes this is due to the hypocritical behaviour of some. Take Dyson exploits the British know how and heads off to the far East to manufacture.

I feel that the country is heading for a disaster where we will all be poorer. People have been fooled by fantasies. When I hear Rees Mogg saying we have nothing to fear trading under WTO regs and people buying it concerns me. When a country imports so much food like the UK does will have to pay more just to cover the tariffs. Rees Mogg stands to make millions from his investment trusts in Dublin..Redwood has been advising his clients to move their money out of the UK and return when the economy goes south. Farage is such a great believer in Brexit he has got his children German passports!!!!

There seems to be a bunch of fanatics driving this Brexit who want to make it a country of low regulation and low taxation. Minimise workers rights with the removal of work time and health and safety directives. Make the rich richer and the poor poorer. These people have no respect for anyone that disagrees with them. Directors of companies like Toyota, Nissan and JLR are treated like they are committing treason and ridiculed by people who have never did a proper days work in their lives.

The consequences of a no deal are serious. Loss of investment,, movement and loss of jobs. Falling revenues to the government, less cash for services and falling living standards. Is that what people voted for?




Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 22, 2018, 18:09:34 PM
What should the UK do if the deal offered by the EU is crazy ?


If only there was some sort of supra-national organisation we could join in order to club together and gain more clout in such negotiations ensuring something like  that could never happen.

I mean, how could little old Ireland gain get so much support for their position? We're bigger than them, after all.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 22, 2018, 19:16:10 PM
What should the UK do if the deal offered by the EU is crazy ?


If only there was some sort of supra-national organisation we could join in order to club together and gain more clout in such negotiations ensuring something like  that could never happen.

I mean, how did little old Ireland gain so much support for their position? We're bigger than them, after all.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on October 22, 2018, 19:44:51 PM
It doesn’t matter who runs Sky KKOB, you purposely changed the parameters of the argument.
Are EU managers any worse than ours?  I look at the cabinet sometimes and wonder how on earth those idiots got to their elevated positions.
At least the EU bosses aren’t cruel, heartless and self serving
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on October 22, 2018, 19:48:15 PM
I meant to ask

What should the UK do if the deal offered by the EU is crap ?.

So the answer is...... ?????
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 22, 2018, 21:17:12 PM
Only the withdrawal agreement is being negotiated at present. Maybe you'll get to know about a trade deal in about 2 years time. What form it takes actually takes is anyone's guess.

I say 2 years, but comprehensive trade deals like this can take 7 years or more. If you don't like it, tough luck.

But remember, you have taken back control.


Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on October 22, 2018, 21:57:41 PM
The Eu is not offering a deal. Every time May tries to negotiate the answer is no. EU only interested in EU dominance. I doubt there will be a no deal brexit which means we will have to remain in custom union ie status quo.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on October 22, 2018, 22:24:18 PM
The Eu is not offering a deal. Every time May tries to negotiate the answer is no. EU only interested in EU dominance. I doubt there will be a no deal brexit which means we will have to remain in custom union ie status quo.

Agree re the EU and belive if they reach a reasonable deal with the UK others will want the same kind of deal and the whole thing might start to unravel. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 23, 2018, 09:15:41 AM
I will re-iterate that the UK and EU are not negotiating a trade deal at this time, they are only negotiating the Withdrawal Agreement. This sequence of negotiations was agreed to by the UK in 2017. The main disagreement is the Irish Backstop which the UK had previously agreed to in January 2018 but are currently trying to renege on.

The EU have been explicitly clear on which future trade models are open to the UK ("EFTA", "Switzerland", "Canada" etc.). They even published the info on a handy slide which I previously posted twice. The UK is still deciding upon what it actually wants.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on October 23, 2018, 09:42:40 AM
We need to start getting real here. You would think the EU is leaving the UK and not the other way round. The EU law is enshrined investigations that apply to all members. It is based on the 4 freedoms and the EU from the outset these freedoms are not open to negotiation. What the UK wants is frictionless trade and that is not possible without adherence to the freedoms.

We heard all of this we want to control our borders, our money and our laws. We were promised that nothing will change  by the leave campaign. We heard Brexit is Brexit and all the other waffle. The EU said sorry you are leaving  but we respect your decisions. These are the options available to you (Villains slide). These were available from day one. May and her fanatics in the Tory party have spent over 2 years infighting like alley cats paying little attention to the ecnomic consequences but jockeying for leadership.

The EU has offered a deal but it is not acceptable because they have not and will notallowed the UK to cherry pick.For 18 months the EU has been frustrated with the UK's negotiating position. The trouble is the UK does not know what it wants. This has led to frustration and the EU has lost patience which resulted in the Tusk tweet regarding cake with no cherries.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 23, 2018, 10:30:39 AM
You need to understand what "Chequers" is too. It is effectively staying in the Customs Union and as far as staying in the Single Market as we think we can get away with. We want to stay in The single Market for goods, but not services and end Free Movement.

But what is the Single Market? It allows the free movement of goods, services, labour and capital. This is sacrosant to the EU and all of the EU (and EFTA) countries agree to it. This is where we are cherry-picking - goods yes, services no, labour no and capital yes. I just can't see it working.

Why are we doing this? because the UK know that exiting the CU/SM will smash the UK's manufacturing base (Friction at the border = lorry parks, Just in Time manufacturing companies will leave, suppliers then go out of business.

So-called "Economist for Brexit" and ERG poster boy Prof Minford admitted as such: https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/mps-react-after-vote-leave-11269819 ("MPs react after Vote Leave economist admits Brexit would 'mostly eliminate manufacturing' " )

But think about it - under Chequers, the Germans would still be able to sell their cars to us, but we wouldn't be able to sell our biggest export - financial services - to the EU. That's plain nuts. We would no doubt still make contributions to the EU budget and would have little to no say about the Single Market in the future (Rees-Mogg's "Vassal state" ). That's nuts, too.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 23, 2018, 11:29:10 AM
Yet all the while, we are continually being fed a constant stream of lies from MPs. They are either deliberately lying, or just spectacularly stupid. there is no other explanation.

Please read these where MPs make completely false claims:

1. https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/25/brexit-mps-tweet-about-foreign-lemons-didnt-go-down-too-well-7976838/?ito=article.amp.share.top.twitter

Dan Kawczynski MP for Shrewsbury: "Now at Tescos in Shrewsbury. Please remember EU protectionist racket means inefficient EU growers preferred to other non EU Mediterranean growers,due to massive tariffs imposed by EU. This leads to you paying more for your products! No more after March 2019! #Brexit"

Rapidly and completely debunked, the reality is that you will be clucky to find ANY produce in Tesco that is subject to tariffs.

2. Andrew Bridgen MP (NW Leics.), reckons all English people (I can only assume he thinks Scottish and Welsh people too) are entitled to get an Irish passport.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/irish-passport-england-uk-andrew-bridgen-tory-mp-brexit-border-eu-a8587286.html

3. Chris Philp MP (Croydon South) demonstrates the "Frictionless" Swiss Customs Border. "This is what EU Customs Union border can look like - Flughafenstrasse in Basel on Swiss (not in CU) French (in CU) border. There is a little sign and a small camera of the kind seen on every high street. There are technical solutions to ensuring no hard border NI/RoI"

https://twitter.com/CPhilpOfficial/status/1053603969585561600

What he doesn't mention is that the road leads directly to a  Customs centre/lorry park, and at other border points, lorry queues of 15-20km are frequent. Also worth noting that citizens can pass freely as Switzerland and all of its neighbours participate in Schengen - so whilst citizens can pass through the border virtually unimpeded, goods simply cannot.

He is suggesting the UK can go "WTO" and the Irish border will be unaffected. Complete BS.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on October 23, 2018, 14:13:01 PM
So if I'm reading this correctly you are saying that the EU will not agree a trade deal with us before we leave in March 2019. That's not strictly correct.

We are leaving on March 29th 2019 and at that point, assuming some sort of deal has been agreed, we will move on to a two year transition period. Any deal agreed will more than likely include a draft trade deal so that trade can continue pretty much as it does now whilst we enter and go through the transition period.

If there is no withdrawal agreement (deal) reached then we would leave on March 29th without the two year transition period.

Neither the EU or the UK want this! Remainers are using this scenario to scare whoever they can into believing this will happen and we will all be in the crap. Well the EU would be as well!

My view is that there will be an agreed withdrawal deal. It might not be perfect but there will be one that prevents the 'cliff edge' that is worrying businesses on both sides.

Trade with the EU will continue. It has to. Anything else is just plain stupid. However it will not be inside the Single Market or the Customs Union.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 23, 2018, 16:48:24 PM
No, we will not have a trade agreement in place by March 29th. Chequers is only a UK plan.

The "Transition Period" is a misnomer. There is no deal to transition to.

The government are currently stockpiling medicines and food and are building a lorry park in Kent. Please stop saying that's "Project Fear".

Trade will continue, but on what terms? Outside both the Customs Union and Single Market, Just In Time manufacturing (e.g. cars) will cease in the UK.

At least you have your blue passport, I suppose.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on October 24, 2018, 06:57:06 AM
Do we really want to deal with a blackmailer?
They are not interested in a deal only our money.

 https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1035627/brexit-news-France-threatens-block-calais-Brexit-divorce-bill-39-billion (https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1035627/brexit-news-France-threatens-block-calais-Brexit-divorce-bill-39-billion)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 24, 2018, 07:25:22 AM
Funny, that. I've lost count of the times politicians, newspapers, people on here etc. have threatened to "just walk away".

And when you see the potential consequences...

WE'RE BEING BLACKMAILED!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 24, 2018, 07:37:30 AM
National Audit Office says we won't be ready this side of the Channel anyway and it'll be chaos here.

Does that mean we're blackmailing ourselves, too?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45952284





Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on October 24, 2018, 08:06:19 AM
Still no word on the Irish border issue.
Raab has stated that the problem can be solved by technology.  This is completely and utterly untrue.  Technology can’t search lorries, and even if it could technology has a tendency to break down occasionally.
There are farms which straddle the border, and people who live on one side and work on the other.  The DUP have repeatedly stated they will not brook a hard border.
The WTO will not agree to our membership without a hard border.
Your views on this?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 24, 2018, 15:43:37 PM
Robert Peston: "A shocked cabinet was today told no-deal Brexit may force government to own or operate lorry ferries, because freight through Dover and Channel Tunnel could fall 85% and we’d run out of vital goods, food and medicine https://www.facebook.com/1498276767163730/posts/2193134667677933/

It's almost like literally no-one has repeatedly been telling them this for 2 and a half years.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we are literally preparing to introduce Blitz-style emergency measures to stop British people starving because we can’t countenance the idea of staying in the customs union. Ask yourself if you ever saw that on the side of a bus.

Excerpt from National Audit Office detailing HMRC border system No Deal preparedness (if it's red, the prognosis is "virtually no chance" ;):

(https://i.postimg.cc/8F8KJgwQ/nao.png) (https://postimg.cc/8F8KJgwQ)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 25, 2018, 10:25:22 AM
Unless someone wants to demonstrate otherwise, we are already well past the point of of being anywhere ready for a No Deal exit in March next year. Looks like there will be blockages apon both sides of the Channel.

How do brexiters feel about Chequers? That is now your only option (other than, of course, remain) As a reminder, Chequers involves potentially permanent membership of the Customs Union, and proposes a fantasy part-membership of The Single Market which we already know is highly likely to be rejected by the EU.

Even if acceptable, it leaves the UK at a huge trading disadvantage with the EU - overwhelmingly our biggest trading partner. The Sun reported that the UK have accepted that ECJ will still be the arbiter, and we will inevitably continue to contribute to the EU budget - but have virtually no say in the running of the EU. Oh, and £39bn.

Really, what on earth is the point?

If you don't agree with that, why not drop a quick email to your MP to confirm if he/she agrees with the analysis?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on October 26, 2018, 08:50:53 AM
To sum up, the whole Brexit affair is an unholy mess which has caused division between politicians, business leaders, friends and families.
I love Europe, and feel at home there.  I love the history, the architecture, the art, the beauty of the countryside and of course the food and wine.  I’ve never felt any animosity towards me as an English woman, even from people who didn’t want my custom.  I feel much more at home in Europe than I do in America or Asia.  Of course, I adore Turkey too.
I think that leaving the EU will cause my country untold damage, and not just in terms of our economy, but in workers’ rights, our NHS, our food safety, our defence, our policing, our beaches, our tax system, and lots of other things that affect our daily lives.
If only we’d all known the myriad implications of Brexit before we voted.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Steve A on October 26, 2018, 11:35:13 AM
Unfortunately Lyndsey all of the things that you think will be screwed by Brexit have already been screwed long ago by Theresa and muppets.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on October 26, 2018, 13:21:39 PM
The EU, the judiciary, the Lords, Remainers, so now it's Theresa May's fault.

Why don't you blame the people that got you here in the first place? The people who lied and continue to lie to you. The people who told you about "buccaneering" trade deals, the people who lied about money for the NHS, the Sunlit Uplands and myths of British exceptionalism. How we could have our cake and eat it before stating "F@ck Business". The same people who ran away when the reality hit. The same people who continue to hurl abuse from the sidelines but still, with 5 months to go, have no coherant plan of their own?

I'd love to hear suggestions for who could have handled this any better. I reckon we would have ended up in the same place.

I used to think Brexit was stupid, now I think it's a case of wilful self-harm, but on a national scale. I honestly cannot see any benefits.

Can anyone?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on October 26, 2018, 15:35:34 PM
I can’t see any benefits either, Villain.  I think some people still have a deep seated hatred for the French and the Germans, and maybe think they’re getting on up on them. 
There’s also the fact that the EU are introducing tax evasion legislation next year, which will affect the likes of Boris, JRM, Farage et al.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 10, 2018, 17:51:03 PM
Congratulations to the UK for being the first country ever to impose economic sanctions upon itself.

Who thinks it's time to think again and have a Peoples Vote, or as some call it: "informed consent"?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on November 10, 2018, 21:53:02 PM
Me, Villain!
As the sensible member of the Johnson family said today, it wouldn’t be a rerun of the 2016 vote, but a new vote on the deal negotiated by Mrs May and the EU;  different thing altogether.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on November 11, 2018, 00:35:48 AM
If there was another vote then what should be on the ballot paper. There is little point having a new vote if the choice is to accept May's negotiated deal or no deal. Both will result in an economic downturn

Some of the stuff that I have read this week makes me wonder about the intelligence of the UK electorate and the country's political leaders.

An article in the Irish Times related to conversations that the journalist had with people in Sunderland. Sunderland was one of the most pro Brexit areas. When the journalist asked about the future of Nissan in the event of a no deal. The answer he got it will make no difference to Nissan as the company is so embedded in the area it will not leave. All I would say to these idiots is remember shipbuilding, coal and steel were  embedded in the area and where are they today? Gone and will never return.

Rabb, the Brexit secretary admits that until recently he did not know how important the Dover - Calais route is. I assume he has also just realized he lives on an island.
We have Corbyn away with the fairies. Brexit cannot be stopped and he will not do anything to try and stop it. EUleaders have said that it could be stopped He will not support a peoples vote. Yet a motion was passed at the Labour party conference.75% of Labour party members support it. Recent opinion polls show there is a majority in every Labour seat supporting a new vote. He goes on about wanting society to be fairer and people to be better off and he taking a stance on Brexit that totally contradicts that statement by sitting back and watching thousands lose their jobs. Keir Stamer has said that another vote is not off the table yet Corbyn says it is. So much for democracy in the Labour party
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on November 11, 2018, 14:33:14 PM
 All I would say to these idiots is remember shipbuilding, coal and steel were  embedded in the area and where are they today? Gone and will never return.

  Union wage demands destroyed these industries by pricing us out of the market.

 EUleaders have said that it could be stopped

 It would be stopped on their terms ie we join the euro,Shengen and stop the current rebate.


Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on November 11, 2018, 14:57:23 PM
Joining the Euro has never  never been raised . European leaders have stated that the UK could continue to remain a member of the EU under current conditions. With regards the rebate it is reviewed and agreed at the start of the budget cycle. The next cycle is due coveting post Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on November 11, 2018, 15:42:36 PM
So, Icalis, the disappearance of these industries is just down to greedy workers?  Utter tosh.

I live in an old mining area - my father worked down a coal mine from the age of 14.  We obviously have friends who were miners.  In the two years before all the closures started, millions were spent on new machinery, new pit top showers, new office furniture and tech, landscaping of gardens, and new canteen facilities.  This happened at most pits in our area. 
The balance sheets at these pits looked appalling.  The pits closed.
This was a long term plan to get rid of the pesky miners who had bettered Heath,
A factory near us used to make clothes for Burberry - very expensive clothes, which must have had a high profit margin (£80 t shirts etc).  The manufacturing has been moved abroad to make more profit for shareholders.  If British workers worked for the same wage as in, say, Sri Lanka, the government would have to subsidise their wages with tax credits and housing benefit.
Our steel industry suffered because of cheap foreign imports, allowed and encouraged by the government.
No, greedy workers and their unions aren’t to blame, but the policies of successive governments who don’t seem to care what happens north of the Home Counties.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 12, 2018, 11:21:50 AM
Here's the Brexit dividend!

Steris PLC, a company with $2.6 billion in annual revenue, is planning to redomicile from the UK to Ireland due to Brexit. What that means is that, as an Irish company, the Irish tax authorities will collect its taxes going forward and not HMRC.
 
8 health providers have warned of medicine shortages in the event of a no-deal Brexit: "we do not believe that the current medicine supply plans will suffice, and we will have widespread shortages if we do not respond urgently”.

Pfizer - $100 million on Brexit prep:"Pfizer’s preparations are well advanced to make the changes necessary to meet EU legal requirements after the U.K. is no longer a member state, especially in the regulatory, manufacturing and supply chain areas."

AstraZenica estimates its Brexit-related costs at £40 million for duplicate drug testing requirements, and building up product stockpiles.

Chubb (world's largest publicly traded property and casualty insurance company) is redomiciling from the UK to France. It has already received permission from the french regulator, and aims to complete its move on 1 January 2019.

Similarly, British Airways plans to re-register in Spain

Columbia Threadneedle switched £6.2 billion worth of assets from UK domiciled funds to Luxembourg domiciled funds.

Liberty Specialty Markets is redomiciling its insurance company from the UK to Luxembourg.

Admiral Group is planning to move some of its UK business from Admiral Insurance Company Limited to an entity in Spain, Admiral Europe Compañía de Seguros, S.A, that was set up on 20 December 2017.

A ferry company has brought in 2 new ships, including the "Brexit Buster" ship Celine (600 truck capacity, world's largest short sea roll-on roll-off ferry). Idea is to bypass the UK and send freight directly from Ireland to Belgium and Spain.

SwissQuote cancelled its expansion plans in London after Brexit, and instead bought a bank in Luxembourg.

STM Life moving part of its business from Gibraltar to Malta to guard against the effects of Brexit.

JPMorgan and other leading US banks are getting ready to shift over 250 billion euro in assets from London to Frankfurt.

A hard Brexit may increase the price of Dutch plants by 50% due to customs delays, additional safety tests and red tape. But they can’t easily be replaced by increased UK production since 90% of shoots come from abroad.

XL Insurance Company SE (a company writing over £2 billion/year in insurance premiums) is moving from the UK to Ireland in January 2019 due to Brexit (the move is explicitly described as due to Brexit in its annual accounts).

Bank of America has spent between $300 and $400 million preparing for Brexit, including establishing new subsidiaries in Paris and Dublin, moving staff etc. Exact cost not yet clear as project is ongoing.

So many firms are stockpiling food against the disruption of Brexit that a cold storage company has now completely run out of room.

DEXEU (the Brexit Ministry) has spent over £100 million (estimated) on staffing costs since the referendum. That figure's just for the people in the department, and doesn't account for any other costs.

Insurer Hiscox spent US$15 million (£11.5 million) in preparations against a no-deal Brexit (it will also transfer some business to Luxembourg).

A $15 billion hedge fund specialising in distressed debt is gearing up to profit out of Brexit chaos.

Government has spent £5.5 million keeping Manston Airport open in case it's needed as additional overflow lorry parking after Brexit.

Corporate Sterling-denominated bond sales have slumped 34% this year, as companies put off investing in the UK due to Brexit uncertainty.

Royal & Sun Alliance Insurance plc is moving approximately 6% of its insurance and reinsurance business to a new legal entity in Luxembourg, with the intention that the move be effective 1 January 2019.

AIG operates in Europe through a single legal entity established in the UK (with branches across Europe). They are restructuring their business because of Brexit, and moving all non-UK business to a Luxembourg entity (planned by December 2018).

European Medical Agency (EMA), Europe's medicines regulator, is moving from London to Amsterdam. It used to employ close to 900 people in London. It's had to cut its short-term service offering as it will lose at least 30% of staff during the move.

France's top banks are moving 500 jobs out of London due to Brexit.

The Government has 7000 civil servants working on Brexit, plus Treasury funding for 9000 more. (Just imagine the mountains of red tape they're generating, and the forests being decimated to print it all).

GSK Brexit prep spend: "We currently anticipate that the cost to implement these and other necessary changes could be up to £70 million over the next two to three years, with subsequent ongoing additional costs of approximately £50 million per year."

A major financial firm, CME Group's BrokerTec, is leaving London for Amsterdam because of Brexit, taking its $240 billion/day repo market with it.

British hauliers are already having to turn down contracts worth hundreds of thousands of pounds because of uncertainties surrounding a no-deal Brexit.

Theresa May repeatedly cancelled national security meetings because of being overwhelmed by Brexit planning.

The Government estimates that it will cost the chemicals industry £450 million to reregister chemicals under a post-Brexit regime. (That's just to replicate the status quo.)

Investment in UK renewables drops 46% year-on-year because of Brexit concerns.

Tokio Marine Group is using a "Part VII transfer" to transfer business from two UK-based subsidiaries (Tokio Marine Kiln Insurance Limited, and HCC International Insurance Company Plc) to a Luxembourg entity.

QBE Limited is reorganising the affairs of several of its group companies, using the Part VII mechanism, in order to be ready for Brexit. Plans to move business to Belgium.

Once we're out of the EU, we'll be cut out of the pan-EU transport strategy (which unlocks billions of euro in grants and other funding). Indeed, EU transport maps will be redrawn (policy-wise, not literally!) so that the UK doesn't appear any more.
 
XTX Markets is establishing a new office in Paris for post-Brexit trade.

Credit Suisse is moving 250 jobs to Germany, Madrid and elsewhere in the EU27, including Luxembourg.

New Look (fashion retailer) are closing a further 25 stores (85, up from planned 60 store closures) citing "significant headwinds and uncertainties, including Brexit".

Schaeffler, a car parts company, is closing two UK factories, in Llanelli, Wales, and Plymouth (affecting 570 jobs) because of Brexit.

Haulage companies face entering a lottery for scarce permits to continue doing business internationally post-Brexit, after the Government admits there are less than 10% of the needed number of permits to go around.

MS Amlin receives the green light to redomicile Amlin Insurance SE from the UK to Belgium.
 
Hiscox are transferring some aspects of their business to Luxembourg, and expect the Part VII transfer to complete by 1 January 2019. "The Transfer will move £421.5m of liabilities (and the corresponding assets) from HIC to HSA."

Scotland Yard is having to spend £2.4 million on setting up a no-deal Brexit "safety net unit" after Government ignored its reasoned warnings over how Brexit would make the UK less safe.

The Customs Declaration Service (CDS) is a major new HMRC IT system meant to replace existing customs systems. Supposed to be ready by January 2019. Delays mean it won't be ready by Brexit Day. Old and new systems will have to run in parallel.

Home Office private beta of its new EU citizen registration system took nearly 2 weeks to process just 1,053 applicants (despite testing relatively "easy" batches of applicants). Full system will need to handle over *3 million* people in 2 years.

Barclays is moving €250 billion of business to Dublin ahead of Brexit, making it Ireland's largest bank. It has already bought a huge gleaming new office building there in preparation.

The Government has spent £4.2 billion pounds on Brexit preparations (£2.2 billion in previous Budgets, plus an additional £2 billion in the most recent Budget.)

Just a sample.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on November 12, 2018, 12:18:01 PM
Villain you forgot to mention that a major dividend will be a new 50p coin that in real terms will be worth 20p.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on November 12, 2018, 14:30:45 PM
Villain you forgot to mention that a major dividend will be a new 50p coin that in real terms will be worth 20p.

 Oh how the remain losers like a laugh.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 12, 2018, 14:44:47 PM
Anybody got a brexit "good news" story?

Fire away...

How about "we can trade on WTO terms and make our own trade deals".

Nope!

https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/international-trade-committee/news-parliament-2017/chairs-statement-uk-goods-schedule-wto-17-19/

"...our WTO schedules form the “baseline” for the UK’s negotiations with other countries on Free Trade Agreements – of which Dr Fox hopes to conclude a great many very soon after Brexit Day. The question now is: will other countries want to negotiate trade deals with us when our baseline still hasn’t been fixed?"
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on November 12, 2018, 15:24:08 PM
If Theresa the appeaser would stop trying to get her Chequers plan approved time could be spent on organising a no deal solution. Instead she is locking us into a customs union with time limit determined by Brussels.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on November 12, 2018, 15:58:20 PM
1Calis continue reading the Daily Express. It is about your level because you certainly don't understand economics.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 12, 2018, 16:33:43 PM
People who are victims of Confidence Tricks will still very often refuse to believe that they have been conned even after being presented with incontrovertible evidence after the event that they have indeed been conned. It's thought that most victims of financial con-tricks don't even report the crime, for example. There's a term for this - it's called "Cognitive Dissonance". I'll let you google that.

I will not blame the victims of this con, and will urge leavers to look at the promises made by the con-men themselves. So stand up Nigel "FBI Person of interest" Farage, Arron "impermissible donations" Bankski, Jacob "Diasaster capitalist" Rees-Mogg, Daniel "nobody is questioning our place in The Single Market" Hannan, Boris "we can have our cake and eat it" Johnson, Kate "No Deal Brexit will be fine, except I can't tell you how or why" Hoey, Steve "Legatum-powered" Baker, John "another disaster capitalist" Redwood, Nadine "what does the Customs Union do?" Dorries, David "we hold all the cards" Davis, Liam "easiest trade deal in human history" Fox...the list goes on.

Did ANY of them say ANYTHING in the lead up to the referendum that has proven to be true?

All are demonstrably either bare-faced liars or simply incredibly, magnificently dim. Yet - THEY CONTINUE TO LIE TO YOU.

P.S. Special mention of course to brexit's biggest fan Vladimir Putin, who managed to pull off the biggest win of all.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 12, 2018, 16:47:55 PM
Sorry, I forgot that Farage has only just been upgraded from FBI "Person of Interest" to "Actively Being Investigated". Arron Banks, the UK's biggest electoral donor ever, is of course being investigated to the UK by The Metropolitan Police, The National Crime Agency, The Information Commissioner and The Financial Conduct Authority.

More on Banks' "wealth" here:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/adam-ramsay/how-did-arron-banks-afford-brexit

Personally, I cannot and will not stand idly by why these shysters try to wreck my country.

Now, who would like to be the first to present their Brexit "good news" stories?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 12, 2018, 17:05:19 PM
If Theresa the appeaser would stop trying to get her Chequers plan approved time could be spent on organising a no deal solution. Instead she is locking us into a customs union with time limit determined by Brussels.

Tell me what this "no deal solution" is? Give some detail, at least.

You do remember that "No Deal" = "No Flights", "Chaos at Ports", etc. etc?

The UK Government agreed to the backstop agreement in December last year. Why are they going back on that now? Also, a "time-limited backstop" is, very simple terms, "not a backstop".

Finally, if we leave with "no deal" and presumably without paying the financial settlement of £39b which is in respect of pre-existing treaty commitments made by the UK, how on earth do you expect any other country to enter into new treaties ("trade deals" ;) with the Uk in the future?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on November 12, 2018, 17:14:01 PM
What happened to Osborne' emergency budget and increase tax rates id leave won? Project fear proven to be lies.

 Not worth replying to ovacikpeedoff. Basic primary school response.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 12, 2018, 17:39:57 PM
You might remember that Mark Carney immidiately cut interest rates and massively expanded Quantitative Easing after the vote. Despite that, the UK went from the fastest growing EU economy then, to the slowest now. The £ was 1.43 euros before the Referendum, to approx 1.14 now.

If we crash out with no deal, expect the £ to suffer another big hit. Shortly after that, the disaster capitalists will move. Big money was made when Farage declared the Referendum lost. The pound rallied, bets were made, Leave actually won, and Farage's cronies cashed in as the pound fell again.

Farage & Co. of course had access to private exit poll data.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on November 12, 2018, 18:15:46 PM
1calis, my response may be primary but what you write is more like nursery school. Still cannot answer a question but spout out some petty statement about Osbourne and his budget. Hammond has already stated that if the UK leaves without a deal he will have to reverse his recent budget to balance the books. Even with a deal the UK is forecast to be the poorest performing country among the 28. Since the vote the UK has gone from the top of the G20 to the bottom in terms of economic growth

What about Farage and mass immigration from Turkey? Johnson £350m to the NHS and getting his cake and eating it. Fox and all his trade deals. Davis dealing with the EU Will be easy. This the crap and lies that the leave campaign used to persuade voters

Just answer Villain's perfectly fair and logical question. Because it is not covered in the Express you don't have a clue about the implications of no deal and what the impact will be on the country.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on November 12, 2018, 19:17:17 PM
Some benefits of leaving the EU. There are many more but these will do for now:

http://www.jonathanarnott.co.uk/2018/06/benefits-of-brexit/
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 13, 2018, 16:29:19 PM
Some of those quite frankly are minor issues compared to the Irish border, friction at Dover and Calais which could very realistically lead to food and medicine shortages (we are actually stockpiling CUSTARD for Christ's sake), the loss of ALL of our existing trade deals, the abandonment of EU-based UK citizens (many of whom didn't even get to vote in your oh-so-"democratic" referendum) and the betrayal and scandalous treatment of UK-based EU citizens - the rest is just utter BS. I'll just have a go a few of them anyway, only because I'm a little bit bored.
 
"The EU Procurement Directive won’t be able to force us to give State contracts to overseas businesses"
 
Likewise, EU countries won't be forced to include UK firms in tendering. My wife has written loads of tenders for NHS contracts. The awarding of tenders is hardly ever just about cost. The NHS does not automatically award tenders to the cheapest one offered. A detailed specification (performance, environmental etc.) is drawn up and points are awarded on the basis of how the submitted tender meets the required specification. Points make prizes. the 1-2% thing he mentions is just about the reddest of herrings.
 
"We won’t have to comply with the VATMOSS legislation, boosting jobs"

Unbelievably simplistic

Guess what, things will get worse, not better after a No Deal Brexit:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/08/24/uk_gov_publishes_nodeal_papers/
 
“Compliance costs will be lower outside the European Union”

According to the OECD, “the UK is still a lightly regulated economy compared to other rich countries. This suggests that regulatory gains from leaving the EU would be quite small.”
 
Fact Check here:
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-regulation-and-single-market/

For the above two points, did you realise that post-Brexit, instead of just dealing with VATMOSS, e-commerce traders selling to the EU will now have the "red-tape busting" 27 different sets of trading rules depending on the country and deal agreed. Source: https://ec.europa.eu/info/brexit/brexit-preparedness/preparedness-notices_en . Glad to see the UK government have similarly prepared UK businesses - except they haven't, actually. "Brexit Preparedness" = oxymoron.
 
"We can negotiate our own bespoke trade deals with third countries"

I’ve dealt with this. We already enjoy more trading agreements through membership of the Customs Union than any other trading block or country.  On March 30th, we won’t have ANY trade deals – how on earth is that better? It will take decades just to replicate what we already have and with the trade disputes at the WTO already lodged, it’s highly unlikely we will be able to conclude any substantial FTAs for years in any case. Just how more wrong can this bloke be?
 
"The North East is a strong fishing region. Outside the EU, our fisheries will recover through reclaiming our 200-mile limit"

The UK’s fishing economy is worth (from memory) less than £800m per annum. Relatively speaking, it’s a tiny, tiny part of our economy. The economy of Harrod’s alone is 3 times the size of that. How is it that one of our smaller industries is suddenly more important than, say the Financial Services industry which provides £billions and £billions more in positive trade flows? Call that rational? I don't.

P.S. Nigel Farage is on the Fisheries Committee at the EU. How many meetings could have he attended and how many did he actually attend? (look it up, actions speak louder than words...)
 
"The net EU membership fee"

So far the UK has spent £2billion on Brexit ”preparations”, the last budget allocated £2.2 billion more. We need 1000’s of extra Customs officials, 1000s of other civil servants, we need trade negotiators, more civil servants, new regulatory bodies (nuclear, banking, aviation etc. etc. etc.) and we're spending money on really useful stuff like converting motorways into lorry parks. What’s the bill for all that? Arnott mystifyingly doesn't say. DexEU has the highest turnover of staff of any Ministry (wonder why?) and the average age of staff is just 32. Anybody with any sense runs a mile in the opposite direction when offered a job there.

EU membership does cost the equivalent of approximately 0.5% of UK GDP, but the Single Market is estimated by the CBI to boost GDP by 4-5%. I think you'll find that you’re cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Finally: this “One of the key problems with uncontrolled immigration from the EU is that an oversupply of unskilled and semi-skilled labour drives down wages. Even if there existed a reasonable mechanism by which the UK might enforce the permitted restrictions on those who do not find work in the UK, uncontrolled immigration does lead to lower wages (hence, why it tends to be supported by big business).
By prioritising skilled immigration over unskilled, this downward pressure on wages will be reversed – whilst developing the skills base within the economy.”

…is just a lie, followed by another lie, with another repeated lie thrown in for good measure. Still, seeing as this Arnott bloke (who I have genuinely never heard of before) apopears to be best mates with one of this age’s great liars - ex-UKIP leader Paul Nuttall (Arnott resigned from UKIP after Nuttall resigned the UKIP leadership), it really isn’t surprising.

Nuttall, to remind everyone, lied about being a professional footballer, lied about having a PhD and lied about “losing close friends at Hillsborough". Arnott's his mate? What wouldn't that rabble lie about?

Next time, instead of just linking to some aspirational BS from some local random boob who, like Farage, Davis, Redwood, Bankski, BloJo, et al  is nowhere near to any sort of Brexit decision-making (but who still insist on interfering with bloviating nonsense from the sidelines), why not have a look at what Legatum, I mean the government are actually going to fob you (and me) off with, and offer some decent self-generated critique on that?

Here's one for you - How will Brexit affect Arnott's region's biggest employer - Nissan? Nissan import 3 million components a day from the EU. With friction at the border, tariffs, customs declarations and general increase in RED TAPE (but Brexit was going to virtually eliminate that, wasn't it?), what do you think will happen to that now largely French owned firm, I wonder? Especially when their goods are subject to a another tariff upon export?

I will repeat: you were lied to, but the lies keep on coming.

Cognitive dissonance works wonders, doesn't it?


Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on November 13, 2018, 16:45:40 PM
(https://www.imagesource.com/Doc/IS0/Media/TR3_WATERMARKED/2/6/6/c/IDI1ZD9.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 13, 2018, 16:53:32 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-historians-will-not-believe-sheer-ignorance-of-brexit-supporters-1.3695347?mode=amp
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 14, 2018, 00:06:06 AM
Still waiting for the Brexit Good News stories, btw.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on November 14, 2018, 07:23:40 AM
Well its time for deal or no deal! But look on the bright side.
Nothing can be as bad as as we have seen on Sunday.
ie the last two wars.!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 14, 2018, 10:37:14 AM
Can't wait for the PM to speak to the nation later and explain exactly why a bad deal is better than no deal.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on November 14, 2018, 11:46:01 AM
How many of the cabinet will resign today, and how will the DUP and Labour vote?  Popcorn at the ready, this could get messy!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 14, 2018, 12:20:28 PM
PMQs latest: Peter Bone has just cancelled the commission for his Theresa May "Queen of Brexit" statue.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: nichola on November 14, 2018, 20:40:09 PM
Whats in the draft withdrawal agreement?

The EU tells us here http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-18-6422_en.htm
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: nichola on November 14, 2018, 21:34:14 PM
All 585 pages of the draft withdrawal agreement text on the UK government's web site https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/progress-on-the-uks-exit-from-and-future-relationship-with-the-european-union?utm_source=39814fd5-eaf8-454a-b68d-ed9768231370&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 14, 2018, 23:03:56 PM
May has finally succeeded in uniting the country...


...against her.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on November 14, 2018, 23:31:17 PM
Only hours after the draft was published on what basis do you make that assertion
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on November 15, 2018, 06:07:45 AM
No way have I read it all but from those who have I think she has been shafted big time.

If it goes through Parliament then we are all getting the worst possible deal. We will be tied to the EU forever if they wish, be paying £39 billion for the privilege and NI will become a separate entity.

When it gets rejected the EU know that May might have to call an election or for a peoples vote - unless she goes down the no deal route which is very unlikely for a remainer.

So she is right - it's this deal, no deal or Corbyn in power by default.

I guess that's what happens when you put a Turkey in charge of Xmas.

Only hope is that enough letters go in and we get a leader who actually wants to leave the EU. Has anyone got the balls for it?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on November 15, 2018, 06:17:58 AM
Latest:

Battlelines are being drawn over #Brexit.
Here's the latest:
- At least two senior ministers said to be on the brink of resigning.
-  Brexiteer rebels within the Tories say leadership contest 'will be triggered'
- PM reaches out to rivals for support
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on November 15, 2018, 07:29:49 AM
Although a committed left winger (you guessed that, right) I feel quite sorry for Mrs May.

I don’t believe a better deal was achievable.  Why on earth would the EU offer us a good deal;  only 8% of their total exports come to us and making our exports dearer in EU countries isn’t going to give them sleepless nights.  Brexit will also benefit them as a lot of companies have/will relocate to EU countries.

Does anyone think Boris or Jacob Rees Mogg could have somehow got a better deal;  I don’t believe they could. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 15, 2018, 08:25:33 AM
Only hours after the draft was published on what basis do you make that assertion


Just ask yourelf - what was promised by leavers? What were May's "red lines" that she couldn't possibly cross?

What have remainers been saying about those aspirations all along?

What have we ended up with?

How many times (just as an example) is Scotland mentioned in there?

This just won't get through parliament anyway.

Now tell me what you think.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on November 15, 2018, 09:02:12 AM
Interesting stats on the vote in parliament:

If Tory loyalists and moderate tories vote for, 88 votes short
If Tory loyalists, moderate tories, Tory remainers and Labour rebels vote for, 63 votes short
If Tory loyalists, Tory remainers, labour rebels and the DUP vote for, 53 votes short
If the number of Labour rebels increases to 45, still 28 votes short
- of a majority.

I see Raab has just resigned!!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 15, 2018, 09:03:28 AM
Until the Twelfth of Never....

(https://i.postimg.cc/XXzMBKnN/backstop.png) (https://postimg.cc/XXzMBKnN)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 15, 2018, 09:04:47 AM
I see Raab has just resigned!!

That's Alan B'stard, surely?

Sums Brexiters up, Raab just resigned over the deal he negotiated.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on November 15, 2018, 09:19:20 AM
Northern Ireland to be re-named ‘West Belgium’ in Brexit deal

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/northern-ireland-re-named-west-belgium-in-brexit-deal-20181114179420
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 15, 2018, 10:27:53 AM
James O'Brien reminds us: "David Cameron called the referendum in order to unite the Conservative Party"


(edit) Esther McVey just resigned.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 15, 2018, 10:31:08 AM
So has Anne-Marie Trevelyan (PPS to the Education Minister).
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 15, 2018, 10:38:35 AM
Farewell to ERG dimwit Suella Braverman.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 15, 2018, 10:48:42 AM
If you happen to wonder how we got here...

June 23rd 2016 vs November 15th 2018


(https://i.postimg.cc/phkPjxPy/sun.png) (https://postimg.cc/phkPjxPy)

(https://i.postimg.cc/SjNShXG9/sun1.png) (https://postimg.cc/SjNShXG9)

This is really quite extraordinary - The lies about the EU that we're peddled in the media over the years:

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on November 15, 2018, 17:46:33 PM
What 3 things do people think that a Corbyn team could have got the Europeans to agree to that Mrs May couldn't.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 15, 2018, 18:47:53 PM
Quite frankly, I have no idea what that has to do with anything, nor do I care.

What do you think of May's deal?

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on November 15, 2018, 22:22:18 PM
I don’t think Labour, or indeed the rabid conservative brexiteers could have done any better.

I think that brexiteers have a vision of a Great Britain which no longer exists - the Britain of years ago, when we had a manufacturing industry and were a force to be reckoned with on the world stage.

What I find particularly abhorrent are the comments I’ve heard about our role in WW2, as if Europe, even 70+ years on should still be grateful for our intervention.  Our role was motivated mostly by self interest and we should not now expect any special treatment.

Of course, there is one deal that would benefit every one of the people of the UK, protect jobs, benefit British manufacturing, increase the security of the U.K., calm the fears of British people living and working on the EU, satisfy the people of Northern Ireland, ensure our supplies of food and medicines are uninterrupted, keep car manufacturers here, safeguarding thousands of jobs, stop the SNP calling for independence, prevent dodgy food imports and NHS interference from the US, maintain our environmental standards, stop EU nurses, doctors, hotel and farm workers feeling unwelcome and going  home etc etc etc.

REMAIN.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on November 15, 2018, 23:09:50 PM
.....stop the SNP calling for independence
REMAIN.

There is nothing, repeat nothing on God's earth that will stop Nicola and her sheep calling for independence.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 15, 2018, 23:14:41 PM
.....stop the SNP calling for independence
REMAIN.

There is nothing, repeat nothing on God's earth that will stop Nicola and her sheep calling for independence.

Highlander, with the greatest of respect, stop dodging the question - What are your thoughts on May's deal?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on November 16, 2018, 06:12:23 AM
Lets face it the Eu dnt want  to let us go.and i dont care whos doing
the deal May or Corbin, the  same result.😣😣.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: saoirse on November 16, 2018, 07:15:44 AM
.....stop the SNP calling for independence
REMAIN.

There is nothing, repeat nothing on God's earth that will stop Nicola and her sheep calling for independence.


Lol

The irony of Brexiteers calling anyone sheep!!

Still I suppose being a  sheep is better than being a lemming

However the most delicious irony re Brexit  amongst some forelock touching Scots is when the Indy Ref was called, the Tories campaigned that independence for Scotland would be a disaster because......Scotland would be outside the EU!!!!!!

Quite frankly the only good side of Brexit is it should hasten  the end of partition in Ireland and allow Scotland its independence

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on November 16, 2018, 11:36:45 AM
villian - I just wonder if the present deal is the best that the Europeans would allow the UK and if that is the case what could others negotiate that the government didn't.

Perhaps the Europeans didn't give anything away for fear of it having a domino effect throughout the EU.

saoirse - we Scots had a people's vote in 2014 and 55.3 % voted NO.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: saoirse on November 16, 2018, 12:00:49 PM
Lol

You sure did and 1 reason you were told to vote no was if you got independence you would LEAVE the EU!!!! Were you made mugs off then or now????

Of course when it came to a straight vote on Brexit solely -Scotland voted to stay in!!!!

Do you seriously think privileged English upper class toff chinless wonders like Mogg Johnson etc give a stuff about Scotland??

Even when they poll Brexiteers they readily  say if ditching Scotland or the North of Ireland was the price to pay for them to get their Brexit they would jettison the " paddies and jocks" in a heart beat

Have some dignity man and faith in Scotland - not Boris and his self centred careerist upper class knobs

Hanging on to the shirt tails of posh crooks who don't want you is not becoming
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 16, 2018, 12:47:36 PM
villian - I just wonder if the present deal is the best that the Europeans would allow the UK and if that is the case what could others negotiate that the government didn't.

What would an ideal Brexit look like as far as you're concerned?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on November 17, 2018, 09:11:34 AM
We've heard nothing from him in over 18 hours. Surely this can't be the end of Villain ?

(https://images.techhive.com/images/idge/imported/imageapi/2014/03/flame-virus-100257165-primary.idge.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on November 17, 2018, 22:35:30 PM
Aussie (ex PM) Tony Abbott sums it up beautifully!-----

It’s pretty hard for Britain’s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that’s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn’t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it’s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.

Let’s get one thing straight: a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender. It’s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain’s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he’d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she’s desperate for whatever deal she can get.

The EU’s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there’s only one ‘deal’ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it’s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.

But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it’s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It’s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can’t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year — and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world’s fifth-largest economy?

A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.

Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently — and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don’t need a deal. You don’t need Michel Barnier’s permission. If Europe knows what’s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.

Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker’s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.

Fourth, no ‘divorce bill’ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU’s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain’s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn’t getting its fair share, it’s the EU that should be paying Britain.

Finally, there’s no need on Britain’s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn’t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there’s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let’s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don’t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.

Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US — but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We’re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).

UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It’s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let’s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.

As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain’s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain’s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it.

Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on November 18, 2018, 08:33:38 AM
With the greatest possible respect, Highlander, I could not possibly disagree more.

Abbott maintains that after Brexit, we wouldn’t be under the rule of Brussels;  this is an oft used expression.  Last time I looked, we still had a royal family, a parliament and a House of Lords.  If Abbott means we have to have strict food regulations, clean beaches, a close relationship on security and policing, strict rules on workers’ rights, freedom to live and work in any EU country and an EU Court of Justice, what exactly are his objections to these things.

He states that May gave the impression of being desperate for a deal.  She wasn’t playing poker, she was fighting for the future of our country, as any patriot would.  The use of the word ‘punish’ is ridiculous.  Why would the EU give us the same rights and privileges of member states without paying the membership fee.

I think Abbott misunderstands WTO rules.  It is not possible under these rules to waive tariffs to a ‘favoured nation’ - in this case, the EU.  We would have to waive tariffs across the board, which could cause what few manufacturers we have to go out of business.  On the other hand, the EU could, and probably would charge us tariffs;  the current tariff on vehicles, for instance is 10%.  This would affect the car plants in this country, and almost certainly would cause some or all of them to consider moving to EU countries. 

Abbott uses the term ‘shackles’ as if we were slaves to the EU, and implies that Leave voters were true patriots.  A true patriot, I would have thought, would want what is best for their country and it’s prosperity, and it is my deeply held belief that what is best for my country is to remain.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 18, 2018, 12:19:04 PM
Aussie (ex PM) Tony Abbott sums it up beautifully!-----

That article is appalling - riddled with untruths, misconceptions, contradictions and downright lies.

“Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia.”
Here’s a list of all the Free Trade Agreements that Abbott thinks that Australia doesn’t have:

•   Australia-New Zealand (ANZCERTA or CER) — 1 January 1983
•   Singapore-Australia (SAFTA) — 28 July 2003
•   Australia-United States (AUSFTA) — 1 January 2005
•   Thailand-Australia (TAFTA) — 1 January 2005
•   Australia-Chile (ACl-FTA) — 6 March 2009
•   ASEAN-Australia-New Zealand (AANZFTA) — 1 January 2010 for eight countries: Australia, New Zealand, Brunei, Burma, Malaysia, the Philippines, Singapore and Vietnam. For Thailand: 12 March 2010. For Laos: 1 January 2011. For Cambodia: 4 January 2011. For Indonesia: 10 January 2012
•   Malaysia-Australia (MAFTA) — 1 January 2013
•   Korea-Australia (KAFTA) — 12 December 2014
•   Japan-Australia (JAEPA) — 15 January 2015
•   China-Australia (ChAFTA) — 20 December 2015

FTAs concluded but not yet in force

Australia-Hong Kong Free Trade Agreement
Indonesia-Australia Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement
Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership
Peru-Australia Free Trade Agreement
Pacific Agreement on Closer Economic Relations (PACER) Plus
signed in June 2017 by Australia, New Zealand, Cook Islands, Kiribati, Nauru, Niue, Samoa, Solomon Islands, Tonga and Tuvalu.

FTAs under negotiation

•   Australia-European Union Free Trade Agreement
•   Australia-Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) Free Trade Agreement
•   Australia-India Comprehensive Economic Cooperation Agreement
•   Environmental Goods Agreement
•   Pacific Alliance Free Trade Agreement
•   Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership
•   Trade in Services Agreement

Hang on, didn’t Abbott say “Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia.” Sure, it does, Mr Abbott, sure it does.

What is the UK’s current situation? As EU members, the UK currently benefits from over 750 international treaties. Some allow us to trade freely with the EU and 40+ non-EU countries. Others cover a host of other issues, from air worthiness to drivers licenses, UK & EU citizens rights, food safety, etc. Article 50 states that all EU treaties will automatically cease to apply to a country 2 years after it chooses to invoke Article 50. In the UK's case, that's 29 March 2019 at 11pm UK time.

On that date we lose the benefits of all those 750+ EU treaties we participate in. All the treaties end just like that, as if we'd fed them all through a giant shredder. That's not the EU being vindictive, it's just how A50 works.

As an EU member, the currently UK has free trade deals with 78 countries (22 more pending). They cover 60.7% of our imports & 66.9% of our exports. All gone, 50+ years worth of negotiations down the toilet.

What are tariffs for, anyway? Under WTO, we control our own tariffs for imports (we can set them to zero if we want to). So if e.g. we're desperate for cabbages, we can set a tariff of 0% to encourage other countries to sell them to us. However, we MUST treat every country in the world the same. So we can have cheap things, but at the expense of our domestic industry. If we take away all the cabbage quotas and set a 0% tariff, anyone in the world can flood the UK with cheap cabbages. Great if you like cabbage. Pretty devastating if you're a UK cabbage farmer.
Cheap cabbages, you say? But Abbott says our currency will devalue, so our cabbages will end probably up costing the same but we will probably no longer have a cabbage industry. The man is a genius!

Repeat that across multiple agricultural sectors and we have a major Food Security issue. That is a dereliction of parliament’s obligations for the UK's National Security.

However, at the same time, we have no control over other countries' import tariffs when the UK sells them goods. So the EU and other countries will impose the standard WTO tariffs on everything we send to them. Indeed, under WTO rules, they HAVE to.

Which leads me to this by Abbott:

“We’re talking levies [tariffs] of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).”

So, tariffs of 4-5% will be imposed, imports will be more expensive because the £ is worth less, but imports will be cheaper? I think Mr Abbott is on drugs.

“A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards.”

So we can simultaneously set our own rules whilst Brussels sets product standards for us? Is that what “Taking back control” means?

But there’s more:

“…there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare.”

Those rules already exist under EU Freedom of Movement rules. It’s just that Home Secretaries, like, erm…Theresa May chose not to apply them. So what will change? I thought many brexiters  wanted less forigners?

Finally, “technology allows for smart borders”.

An oft-repeated Brexit lie. Tell me where in the world does this mythical border exist right now? Explain how “technology” does physical checks.

In summary, I don’t think I have ever read a more dishonest article.


I'll ask again, what would an ideal Brexit look like as far as you're concerned?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on November 18, 2018, 14:15:14 PM
Fantastic reply, Villain.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on November 21, 2018, 16:07:45 PM
Looks like you had the last word on Brexit, Villain.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on November 21, 2018, 17:20:38 PM
No. I have.

Until.................
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on November 22, 2018, 13:04:51 PM
Let's wait and see how much May capitulates to the EU. UK will be under EU control thanks to May. Will UK fishing waters be given to EU as part of a weak deal?. May is not delivering brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: nichola on November 22, 2018, 13:49:54 PM
Strangely enough the answer may be here...

Revealed: the millionaires hoarding UK fishing rights...

"The finding comes from a new Unearthed investigation that traced the owners of more than 95% of UK quota holdings – including, for the first time, those of Scotland, the UK’s biggest fishing nation.

In England nearly 80% of fishing quota is held by foreign owners or domestic Rich List families, and more than half of Northern Ireland’s quota is hoarded onto a single trawler.

The news comes as the government is preparing to publish a new fisheries bill, which will set the legal foundations for the UK’s fishing industry after Brexit. The Tories have said the new bill will not see any redistribution of the UK’s existing quota rights.

As Unearthed’s investigation reveals, this would leave the bulk of UK fishing rights in the hands of a small domestic elite and a handful of foreign multinationals.

Responding to Unearthed’s findings, Labour shadow environment secretary Sue Hayman said ministers needed to take “urgent action to use the powers that they have domestically to redistribute fishing quota to deliver a fairer deal for smaller boats”.

Read the rest of it here...

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/11/fishing-quota-uk-defra-michael-gove/?fbclid=IwAR2WaiLyBb9EuVIvmbQj6DcuPQLWQj1VqJH65-TLZEUPcSHAsiZB0EaPUW0

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on November 22, 2018, 14:11:45 PM
The fact is that Britain is not a big fish eating nation any more, apart from fish and chips, and frozen ‘pop it in the oven’ type fish.  Most of the fish caught in our waters is exported.

May has no choice but to ‘capitulate’ iCalis.  The alternative to the present deal, which I agree is not ideal, is to have a no-deal, cliff edge Brexit, which would be catastrophic for Britain.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: peter16 on November 23, 2018, 09:11:46 AM
There is always the alternative of admitting we were fooled two years ago and rescinding article 50.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on November 23, 2018, 13:49:05 PM
who was fooled?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on November 23, 2018, 13:50:07 PM
There is always the alternative of admitting we were fooled two years ago and rescinding article 50.

You may have been.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on November 23, 2018, 15:42:22 PM
I guess this guy is lying through his teeth then?


(https://i.postimg.cc/WqLt0CkH/46525767-10157908403684027-2435131446197747712-n.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WqLt0CkH)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on November 23, 2018, 15:43:07 PM
... and this is fake news?

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-11-22/its-not-a-good-deal-cbi-head-of-eu-negotiations-at-odds-with-official-statement-revealed-in-email-blunder/?fbclid=IwAR31_XKVLb2iHcyMssNCli23c5Jw1OyG8QkO00Tj4ZVc-_LjfL-1oi-P390
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on November 23, 2018, 15:46:03 PM
https://fullfact.org/europe/does-most-uk-trade-happen-outside-eu-and-trade-agreements/
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: saoirse on November 24, 2018, 07:27:37 AM
To those who say they weren't fooled.......any word of that £350 mill a week for the NHS as per honest Boris and his bus!!!!

The simple fact is its impossible to find 2 brexiteers bless them- who can even agree amongst themselves what exactly they voted for.

Was it more control of the borders- whilst those of us on planet Earth knew the 270 crossing point one in Ireland is impossible to control? Or perhaps like those interviewed on Newsnight, it was " it will stop the Muslims, innit"

The reality is the empires gone- get over it. To succeed you need to be either a massive powerful nation or part of a massive trading bloc. Lord Snooty and his chinless wonder privileged elite won't be affected if/ when the economy hits the rocks- just the gullible forelock touching types too naive to see through their lies

Meanwhile from someone preferring both  Irish reunification and freedom for Scotland - Boris, Jacob, Arlene, Nigel- keep up the good work

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: saoirse on November 24, 2018, 07:40:50 AM
Lol!!!!

Pmsl!!!

WRONG attachment above!!!!!

Lol moderators please remove above attachment- this is correct one!!!!

Apologies for any offence, lol!!!!

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on November 24, 2018, 12:20:53 PM
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/881746/Brexit-news-european-union-budget-finance-international-aid-divorce-bill
Title: Brexit
Post by: Scunner on November 24, 2018, 12:27:52 PM
Saoirse

Couldn’t the Sinn Fein MPs rock up to the Houses of Parliament to vote with the tories just to p1ss off the DUP    :)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on November 24, 2018, 14:23:01 PM
I think one of the biggest lies was that we could control our laws.
I asked a Brexit fanatic friend which EU laws she objected to, and she had a look on her face like a bulldog chewing a wasp!  She couldnt think of one.
We’ve always had the power to ignore any laws we don’t like;  we could have ruled years ago that EU citizens didn’t have full access to our benefits system, but our government chose not to.
Brexiteers also claim laws and rules are made by unelected officials.  Strange, when I distinctly remember voting for our MEP.
The EU has played a big part in keeping peace in Europe for decades;  we have more in common than we have differences.  Trouble is, some dinosaurs still look on Germany as our enemies, and believe all French people hate us;  they’re not, and they don’t.  It would be tragic if our group of nations split after Brexit, and even more tragic if we cosy up any further to the USA.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on November 24, 2018, 14:54:27 PM
......she had a look on her face like a bulldog chewing a wasp!


But she always has that look on her face !
(https://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/uploads/monthly_2016_12/200w.gif.254c6298834a081fcb85507535682a50.gif)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: suzyq on November 24, 2018, 15:59:01 PM
I voted to leave, I wasn’t fooled by anything or anyone. I’m not stupid and I am allowed to have an opinion along with everyone else who cast there vote and don’t appreciate being patronised by remainers  who think they have the moral high ground. We live in a democratic country and if the vote had gone the other way I would have accepted it because that is democracy. As Tony Benn said “The EU’s aim always was and remains not to ‘represent’ the peoples of Europe but to constrain popular sovereignty and democracy. The European Union is not Europe. It is the anti-democratic union of Europe’s political elites.”
The country voted to leave ‘get over it’
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: saoirse on November 24, 2018, 16:12:16 PM
Saoirse

Couldn’t the Sinn Fein MPs rock up to the Houses of Parliament to vote with the tories just to p1ss off the DUP     :)

They were elected on a strictly abstentionist ticket

Best estimates would be they would lose up to 60% of their vote were they to betray their base
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Scunner on November 24, 2018, 16:23:31 PM
Phil

Yeah I know  ;)

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on November 24, 2018, 18:07:53 PM
So, SuzyQ what were your reasons for voting Leave?
I’d be very interested to know.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: suzyq on November 24, 2018, 21:21:14 PM
In 1975 I cast my first ever vote to stay in the common market because we were led to believe we were joining a free trade area, not gradually lose our national sovereignty. I feel that the EU has become a behemoth unaccountable organisation whose end wish is to create a superstate, of which I do not want to be a part of. Why have their accounts never been audited, why is £150 million spent every year on members travelling to Strasbourg once a month, why are expenses not regulated? Yes our government is far from ideal but we can use our vote if we wish to see a change. The U.K. has always been a part of Europe, at least that’s what I learnt when I went to school, but being British will always come first and the sense of losing our identity is one of the main reasons I voted to leave. I just feel we should have more control and involvement in our own country instead of having to conform to a one size fits all kind of laws and recommendations and I don’t appreciate being told I’m ignorant or ill educated because I have a different opinion to a remainer.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on November 24, 2018, 23:32:43 PM
.....and I don’t appreciate being told I’m ignorant or ill educated because I have a different opinion to a remainer.

Very well said suzyq - I await with interest to see the response of others on here.

People who voted No in the Scottish Independence Referendum are subject to exactly the same accusations.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on November 25, 2018, 07:25:30 AM
To start with, I would never, ever accuse anyone of being ignorant or ill educated because they didn’t agree with my stance on any matter.  Everyone’s opinion counts, that’s democracy in action.
I would, however, take issue with some of the statements you make.
You speak of expenses;  have you seen details of the expenses our MPs claim, for second homes, expensive furnishings for same, five figure salaries for wives/husbands/offspring as assistants, the famous duck ponds, and a couple of weeks ago for wreaths laid at the Cenotaph.
Yes, we can use our votes, but that is useless in most constituencies;  where I live, a former mining town, they might as well weigh the votes rather than count them;  the same happens in some affluent areas where the conservatives hold sway.  The only areas where change is possible is where they have close run ballots, a tiny minority of the seats available. 
Speaking personally, I have never felt less than being a hundred percent British, but I also feel European in that I feel at home in European countries far more than in the places I’ve visited in America, Asia and Africa.  I have never felt that my identity was in any way altered or threatened.
I will repeat the question I asked my Brexiter friend (who is still my best friend, and has been since 1963, and who I love and respect):  which laws and regulations do you take exception to?  Food safety, clean beaches, co-operation in policing and anti-terrorism, workers’ rights???
Of more importance to me is the increasing influence of America on our culture - my town has about 20 American fast food outlets, Halloween was never a thing in my childhood, every school, be it primary or secondary seems to have a prom, and Americanisms are making their way into our vocabulary.  Do you think Trump’s reasons for supporting Brexit are unselfish because he loves our country;  I think not.  I think he wants America to have a big stake in our NHS, and to be able to flog us second rate (chemically enhanced) food.  In effect, he wants us to be his 53rd state. 
Europe or America, that seems to be our choice,and i know which I prefer.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: suzyq on November 25, 2018, 08:12:52 AM
Hi Lyndsey, a lot of what you say I agree with, some of the laws passed have been of great benefit but I do object being told what light bulbs to use. I also agree about Americanisation but think that is probably more to do with social media than politics. I have seriously been considering never voting again as politics has also changed, it appears that the majority of them seem to think we value their opinion more than our own and as you say have their noses in the trough. Thankfully we are still allowed to debate our differences and I’m glad you don’t class people as ignorant because they disagree with your views but unfortunately a lot of people do and I think that is a great problem in today’s society. I’m sure we can also agree that the present situation is one big mess and the sooner they get on with it and we can move forward the better.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on November 25, 2018, 10:22:46 AM
Yes, social media has a lot to answer for, but Trump has been very vociferous about his dislike of the EU, and his enthusiasm for trading with us post Brexit, which I find deeply sinister.
It must be tricky being an MP sometimes, deciding whether to vote according to their own conscience and deeply held beliefs, or whether to vote as a delegate on behalf of their constituents.  There’s also the fact that party whips can order them to vote in a certain way, and told they could commit professional suicide if they don’t. 
I’ve been name called too because of my stance on Brexit;  it must be one of the biggest causes of arguments among friends and families there has ever been. The present situation is deplorable, and I think everyone will be pleased when it’s over and done with.
As a parting shot, however, I would say that risking huge unemployment, a big fall in our living standards, chaos regarding our food and medicines supply - all of which outcomes are openly admitted by staunch Brexiteers in parliament - for the sake of energy saving light bulbs may be a bit silly.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 26, 2018, 12:02:12 PM
who was fooled?

Actually I don't care. I prefer to blame the people who were doing the fooling:

“There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside.” - David Davis 10 October 2016

“Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards.” - John Redwood July 17 2016

“The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history.” - Liam Fox 20 July 2017

“We're not really interested in a transition deal, but we'll consider one to be kind to the EU.” - David Davis 15 November 2016

“I believe that we can get a free trade and customs agreement concluded before March 2019.” - David Davis 18 January 2017

“Indeed, [a trade deal] would take significantly less than two years. We hold all the cards. We will offer them a deal in response to their pleas for help.” - Patrick Minford 14 June 2016

“I am not worried about transitional arrangements. I am prepared to take the economic hit to secure the economic benefits of not being inside the Single Market and being outside the Customs Union. I simply want... a quickie divorce.” - Michael Gove 17 November 2016

“Within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU. The new trade agreements will come into force at the point of exit, but they will be fully negotiated.” - David Davis 14 July 2016

“Trade relations with the EU could be sorted out in an afternoon over a cup of coffee.” - Gerard Batten 17 February 2017

“Within minutes of a vote for Brexit, CEOs would be knocking down Chancellor Merkel’s door demanding access to the British market.” - David Davis 4 February 2016

“The cost of getting out would be virtually nil and the cost of staying in would be very high.” - Boris Johnson 6 March 2016

“I think we could very easily get a better trade deal than we have at the moment.” - Douglas Carswell 8 June 2016

“All David Davis needs to say to is: listen guys free trade or WTO?” - Tim Martin 2 January 2017

"It will be easy to negotiate a trade deal. It's in the EU's interests." - Paul Nutall 17 January 2017

"Nobody ever pretended this would be simple or easy." - David Davis 5 September 2017



And guess what, they're still at it:

“If we need to leave with no deal and negotiate a free trade agreement during the transition period, so be it.” - David Davis a couple of weeks ago...

(if anybody is still struggling with why that is simply nonsensical – ask yourself - would there even be a so-called “transition period” if there was no deal and no withdrawal agreement?

Source: https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/11/david-davis-there-has-long-been-an-alternative-to-this-discredited-draft-deal-its-the-canada-style-plan-that-tusk-and-barnier-offered-us.html
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on November 26, 2018, 12:09:53 PM
I'm getting the feeling that you're a just a tad obsessive about this Brexit thingy.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: peter16 on November 26, 2018, 12:27:42 PM
Perhaps he realises just how bad this "Brexit" will be for both us and future generations in what will become "little" Britain.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on November 26, 2018, 12:55:53 PM
Perhaps he realises just how bad this "Brexit" will be 

Or, perhaps not.

Personally, I'm quite looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on November 26, 2018, 14:20:41 PM
Are you a multi millionaire KKOB, with money offshore hiding from the taxman and dreading the new EU tax avoidance measures.
If not, what on Earth are you looking forward to?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on November 26, 2018, 15:09:53 PM
I know I might regret this but..............

Is it not the case that the UK is proposing to implement any changes that would be required to be brought in by the Anti-Tax Avoidance Directive by 1 January 2019 (when the UK will still be within the EU) or 1 January 2020 (which is expected to be within the transition period)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on November 26, 2018, 15:14:22 PM
If May's deal goes through it will not be brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on November 26, 2018, 15:45:33 PM
Are you a multi millionaire KKOB, with money offshore hiding from the taxman and dreading the new EU tax avoidance measures.


How did you guess ?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on November 27, 2018, 09:54:00 AM
I know I might regret this but..............

Is it not the case that the UK is proposing to implement any changes that would be required to be brought in by the Anti-Tax Avoidance Directive by 1 January 2019 (when the UK will still be within the EU) or 1 January 2020 (which is expected to be within the transition period)

Another remainer scare tactic John.

https://www.ey.com/gl/en/services/tax/international-tax/alert--uk-takes-steps-to-implement-eu-anti-tax-avoidance-directive
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on November 27, 2018, 10:50:49 AM
As someone who has always paid every penny owed to HMRC, and whose only tax avoidance is taking out ISAs, I’m not scared at all.
The firms who have their headquarters in tax havens (like the Daily Mail, and many multi-nationals), or who move abroad the minute they start making serious money (like Lewis Hamilton), I don’t mind them being scared one bit.
Tax is used for all our public services, who are badly underfunded, and for that reason, I didn’t mind paying my fair share.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 27, 2018, 13:08:13 PM
If May's deal goes through it will not be brexit.

Tell you what, we may as well not bother then, eh?

Seriously, what exactly is the point?

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on November 27, 2018, 13:51:04 PM
If May's deal is accepted we will have to pay EU not only divorce bill but annual fees, follow any new
directives and keep to already implemented rules,unless of course you are Germany or France. We will have no say in anything EU decides. May will have surrendered UK to EU.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 27, 2018, 14:28:20 PM
You mean giving up all that sovereignty that Farridge and Co. said we didn't have?

I think we'd better call the whole thing off, don't you reckon?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on November 27, 2018, 18:29:33 PM
Absolutely Villain.
Just seen Farage on the news, who actually believes that Trump is very pro Britain, and that risking having no trade deal would be disastrous.  The man is either stupid, deluded, or both.
1Calis just stated that one of the downsides of May’s deal is ‘we will not have any say in anything the EU decides’. 
So on the one hand, we have the EU as an undemocratic organisation, and on the other, we bemoan the fact that after Brexit, we will have no say in their deliberations.  Surely both can’t be true.
Apart from lightbulbs, can anyone list the upsides of Brexit, because I can’t think of a single one.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 28, 2018, 15:25:01 PM
*lightbulbs*

lol.

Meanwhile, on planet Earth...from that famously lefty rag The Economist:

The british body politic is again convulsing. Theresa May has appointed new ministers, including her third Brexit secretary and counting, following another round of cabinet resignations. The prime minister’s own backbenchers are feverishly (if ineptly) plotting to bring her down. The Labour opposition’s position is hopelessly unclear. The cause of this chaos is that those with long-standing delusions about what Brexit would mean have been forced to swallow a dose of reality.

With negotiating time almost up, Britain has the imperfect deal that it was always going to get. Promises of having cake and eating it have given way to a less appetising offering. Yet among Brexiteers, one hopeful fantasy lives on: the idea that, if all else fails, Britain can prosper outside the European Union without signing a deal at all. The idea’s proponents tout a no-deal Brexit as a way to avoid giving ground, or money, to Brussels. They dismiss objections as another round of the alarmist “Project Fear” that Remainers deployed before the referendum.

They are gravely mistaken. It is time to debunk the last, and most dangerous, of the Brexit fantasies.

The notion that Britain should leave the eu without agreeing on exit terms or paying its tab has gained currency. Perhaps two dozen Tory mps want such an outcome, now that a cake-and-eat-it deal is off the menu. Given the government’s wafer-thin majority, this small band has undue clout (see article). Assurances by level-headed ministers that Parliament would block a no-deal exit are constitutionally questionable. The public, meanwhile, are worryingly relaxed about no deal. Polls find that many voters would rather do a runner from the eu than accept the compromise that Mrs May has struck.

The reality is that no deal amounts to a very bad deal, as our briefing this week spells out. It would rip up 45 years of arrangements with the continent that in living memory has gone from existential threat to vital ally. It would swap membership of the eu’s single market for the most bare-bones trading relationship possible. Reneging on £39bn ($50bn) in obligations to the eu would devastate Britain’s international credibility. Reaching no deal on the Irish border would test the Good Friday Agreement that ended a serious armed conflict. And the violent dislocation of nearly every legal arrangement between Britain and Europe would affect daily life like nothing outside wartime.

The myth has taken hold that no deal simply means no trade deal. Proponents of a no-deal exit say it will involve Britain trading with the eu on the standard terms used by other members of the World Trade Organisation (wto). No-dealers argue, correctly, that Britain could eventually adjust to this. It would be painful, but the economy could move beyond industries like carmaking, which would be ruined by the 10% tariffs that the eu would impose on British exports. Consumers would gain if the government took the highly unlikely step of abolishing all tariffs, as no-dealer economists recommend. But protected sectors, particularly agriculture, would wither. And many Leave-voters might be surprised that the price of exit was the collapse of much of Britain’s high-end manufacturing and the demise of farming.

More important, no deal would mean not just no trade deal, but the rupture of a whole corpus of legal arrangements with the eu. Britain would be left without rules to govern the trade in radioactive materials, international electricity markets, financial-contract clearing, aviation, medicines regulation, immigration control and much else. What some Brexiteers describe as a “clean break” from Europe would in fact be horrifically messy.

No-deal proponents counter that Britain and the eu would quickly sign side-deals to mitigate the worst of the chaos—allowing flights to carry stranded citizens home, for instance. But it is unlikely that the eu would do more than the minimum if Britain defaults on its debts. What little goodwill remains would turn to dust. Brexiteers say that shortages could be avoided if Britain threw its borders open to eu products without checks. But eschewing any sort of regulation would be an odd way for Britain to “take back control”, as the Leave campaign promised.

If Mrs May wonders how this dire outcome has come to be more popular than her hard-won deal, she should start by re-reading her own speeches. Her mantra that “no deal is better than a bad deal” was supposed to persuade the eu to give Britain better terms. It didn’t work. But it struck a chord at home. David Davis, her first Brexit secretary, compared the talks to buying a house: “You don’t walk in and say, ‘I’m going to buy the house, now what’s the price?’ So why should it be any different in a big negotiation like this?” The answer is that not buying a house means sticking with the status quo, whereas not signing a Brexit deal means swapping the status quo for a new, very bad alternative. The house-buying analogy works only if the buyer has burned down their existing home and is negotiating to buy the only one on the market.

Advocates of no deal brim with the same misplaced confidence with which they approached the Brexit talks. The grim warnings of what would happen after the referendum have turned out to be overblown, they point out. Britain has not fallen into recession, as Remainers forecast, though its performance relative to other advanced economies has declined. Might the impact of no deal turn out to be less bad than feared?

Perhaps. But the disruption caused by an unmediated exit would be far more dramatic than the economic harm caused by the Brexit vote. The public cannot easily see what they have lost as a result of Britain’s slip from being the fastest-growing member of the g7 to one of the slowest. A no-deal Brexit, by contrast, could have highly visible effects. Essentials drying up, travellers stranded, motorways gridlocked: these things bring down governments and undermine faith in democratic politics. In 2000 Tony Blair’s administration was plunged into crisis when protesting lorry-drivers blockaded oil refineries. The protests lasted barely a week but still forced supermarkets to ration bread and milk, and the government to deploy army ambulances.

It is hard to imagine any government surviving the chaos of a no-deal Brexit, let alone one as weak as Mrs May’s. So far the decision to quit the eu has slowed Britain down, rather than derailing it. Leaving with no deal, however, could result in a wreck.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on November 28, 2018, 17:56:56 PM
..and when your kids and grandkids get conscripted into the EU Army which we were told would never happen.......

Brexit scaremongering they said.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on November 28, 2018, 18:12:41 PM
Wars with traditional infantry are, I think, a thing of the past.

I think an EU Army would be a terrific thing;  we already work closely with the armed forces of our European neighbours, so why not join forces.  It seems ridiculous that a small, insignificant country like ours should go it alone, defence wise.  Bigger is better, as far as defence is concerned.

I also wish that we would stick to defence, instead of offence;  the troops in Afghanistan are not defending us. 

Problem is, the dinosaurs still look back to the forties and persist with their distrust and suspicion of France and Germany.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on November 28, 2018, 19:43:02 PM
It seems ridiculous that a small, insignificant country like ours should go it alone, defence wise.  Bigger is better, as far as defence is concerned.

NATO ?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on November 28, 2018, 23:07:44 PM
Trump doesn’t seem too keen on NATO, does he.

Us having armed forces within Europe is rather like, say, Hawaii having their own defence force when they’re part of America,
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on November 28, 2018, 23:17:33 PM
It seems ridiculous that a small, insignificant country like ours should go it alone, defence wise.  Bigger is better, as far as defence is concerned.

With respect, I'll try again - do you believe we are alone, defence wise.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on November 29, 2018, 08:28:45 AM
Tricky thing, defence.
I would define it as protecting our country and it’s citizens from invasion or attack from a foreign power or persons acting alone.
In the extremely unlikely event of our country being invaded, I believe our European neighbours would step in, much as we did in France, not so much for altruistic reasons, but because the invaders may pose a threat to them too.  I think America would hesitate as they did in the 1940s.
The recent bombing of and attacks on Middle Eastern countries were in no way to protect us from invasion, and our casual stance on civilian casualties (civilian deaths in this region can be counted in six figures) I believe has made attacks by persons acting alone more likely.
We spend a lot of money on defence (offence) and I believe pooling our resources with EU countries would mean we were a real force to be reckoned with in the world, and save us millions of pounds into the bargain.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 29, 2018, 11:15:01 AM
..and when your kids and grandkids get conscripted into the EU Army which we were told would never happen.......


Got any facts to back that up? Try these:

https://fullfact.org/europe/hunt-eu-army/

Turns out that the best way to achieve an "EU army" (your description, not mine), would actually be for the UK to leave the EU, where we have a veto on such a thing. So...

Q. What would be worse than an EU army?

A. Facilitating the creation of an EU Army that the UK wouldn't actually be in.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on November 30, 2018, 12:37:00 PM
One for the immigration fanatics: You say we can't control EU immigration, but you must accept that we can control non-EU immigration.

So why was non-EU net immigration up by 76,000 last year to 248,000?

Net EU immigration, by comparison, was 74,000.

In your race to stop Freedom of Movement to the UK, are you just as keen to stop your own Freedom of Movement to 31 other countries?

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on November 30, 2018, 12:58:28 PM
I can't speak for anyone else but the reason some of the leave voters want to control freedom of movement is because it allows low skilled workers to come here from the EU when they aren't really needed.

It also prejudices people from other countries who do not have the same rights.

I'm all for people coming here to work and contribute to society but I see no just reason why workers from inside the EU should be treated differently to those outside.

Maybe a few facts might help. Like:

'Of those who have come to work from the EU in the last ten years, around 80% would not have qualified for a highly-skilled work permit. The Migration Advisory Committee confirms that low skilled migration adds little or nothing to GDP per capita or productivity (See 2016 report here). It can also have a negative impact on wages, in particular in the semi and unskilled services sector. If net migration from the EU is to be reduced, migration into lower-skilled work will have to be controlled.'

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/what-can-be-done
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 02, 2018, 06:46:23 AM
Not really needed, Stoop!
Try telling that to farmers who rely on EU workers to harvest their crops, which would rot in the fields otherwise.  Try telling that to hoteliers who rely on EU workers to clean and wait on in their hotels, or the working women who have EU au pairs. 
Most of the benefits paid out in this country (barring pensions) are so called in-work benefits, ie working tax credits and housing benefit paid to low wage workers.  This, essentially means that we taxpayers are subsidising low pay employers and landlords.
As for forcing down wages, we do have minimum wage legislation, and employers can be heavily fined for not adhering to these laws.
We visit Spain in the winter, and you’d be amazed how many Brits are employed in bars, restaurants and hotels.  It works both ways.
Non EU immigration is another kettle of fish entirely, which governments of all stripes have failed to address - apart from the truly appalling Windrush scandal.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: madmart on December 02, 2018, 21:54:30 PM
If I may add my view on the wages front.

We were outsourced 11 years ago,  over the years I have heard from directors of the company 'we could employ 2 or 3 Eastern Europeans for what you are being paid'. The company would still be paying over the minimum wage. Therefore the HMRC will not be interested under the minimum wage legislation.

My question is mainly; How many more outsource companies have privately been saying the same? As a result of attitudes like that is it any wonder people voted against.

Before you ask i did lodge a complaint of racism and discrimination on the back of those comments.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 03, 2018, 05:49:03 AM
The same thing happened to my husband, madmart, when he retired from Lloyd’s Bank;  his job in now being done in Bangalore, almost certainly by someone getting paid a lot less than he was.
Companies on the whole are concerned about their bottom line, as company bosses have their bonuses to think about, and the goodwill of their shareholders.
Thing is, the cost of living in Eastern Europe is almost certainly a lot less, so their workers, although they get paid a lot less than ours, can have a good standard of living on less.  It is not the case that British workers are greedy, just that living in the U.K. is expensive.
Try telling a Turk how much we pay in council tax, and for water, electricity and food;  I’ve done this, and they’ve been amazed.
I think that after Brexit, a lot of firms will be moving to Europe, not just because of wage costs, but because of tariffs and supply problems.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 04, 2018, 17:01:16 PM
Parliament has taken back control.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on December 05, 2018, 07:22:20 AM
Control of what?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 05, 2018, 10:35:24 AM
A comtemptuous government.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on December 05, 2018, 11:18:08 AM
Or a comtemptuous Eu.😉😎😎
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 05, 2018, 16:49:48 PM
The best deal available to the UK is remain. Who would disagree with me, and why?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on December 06, 2018, 07:21:20 AM
Well it all started a long time ago if you can remember that far back.Ha Ha.
UK voted to leave the EU,

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 06, 2018, 09:08:16 AM
I didn't ask you about the result of the 2016 referendum,

I was asking which option of the ones that apppear to be open to us appeals to you the most:

No Deal, May's deal or Remain?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on December 06, 2018, 15:24:38 PM
Remain is against the vote so that must be no.
May's deal ties us to EU with their rules,payments to them and no input from UK so still tied to EU so must be no.
No deal. As voted for in the referendum.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: peter16 on December 06, 2018, 16:17:34 PM
The referendum question was " do you want to leave the EU", not "do you want to leave with no deal".
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 06, 2018, 17:27:04 PM
Remain is against the vote so that must be no.
May's deal ties us to EU with their rules,payments to them and no input from UK so still tied to EU so must be no.
No deal. As voted for in the referendum.

A major aim of May's deal was to try and honour the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. How do you think we can honour those terms under a No Deal scenario?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: sadler on December 06, 2018, 17:43:17 PM
I have watched this discussion being batted backwards and forwards without commenting. I have spoken to numerous people/friends about how and why they voted as they did. What worries me enormously is how many of them who voted to leave without (at their admission) fully understing the reprocussions of their vote.  What I would like to see is a vote to ask if, knowing  what we know now, how would they have voted. None of us had a full understanding of what our future would be and the way things seem to be  turning out, it appears to be a very worrying prospect indeed.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 06, 2018, 22:32:27 PM
First things first, and I cannot stress this enough – I am not at all sure what is best for the UK - I wish I did.

Secondly, the people voted in 2016 to leave and that is what the government has negotiated to do.

The opposition claim that it is a bad deal and will try to vote it down.

However, it seems to me that having listened to various European leaders over the last few days – “the deal IS the deal and there is no possibility of a “better deal” for the UK” being agreed upon”.

The Remainers are not happy, are calling “foul” and are demanding another so called “people’s vote” (implying by the way that the referendum vote in 2016 wasn’t voted on by “the people”).

We will have to wait to see if the deal is passed in the UK Parliament and indeed if a cancellation of Article 50 is an option.

Let’s assume the Remainers get their way and there is a second “so called” peoples vote.

Self evidently, two outcomes of that vote are possible – (1) the majority vote LEAVE OR (2) the majority vote REMAIN.

So, what will the Remainers do if (1) above is the democratic outcome of the vote – will they accept the result this time?

And if the democratic outcome is (2) above will the Leavers not have a justifiable case for saying to the Remainers – “you didn’t accept the first vote so why should we accept the result of this one”.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 07, 2018, 09:20:35 AM
Yes, if the basis of what Brexit you are voting on is clearly defined and the implications are clearly laid out - which simply wasn't the case in 2016.

This is what 1calis wants. You simply cannot call this Project Fear any longer. Who in their heart of hearts really voted for this?

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjN9svesY3fAhXGgVwKHXIfDOsQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fnews.sky.com%2Fstory%2Ftraffic-chaos-and-school-dinners-at-risk-in-no-deal-brexit-kent-council-warns-11573490&psig=AOvVaw2_tAHt2vYxUgTvre5fblaH&ust=1544260753716236

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3d9d4f44-f9ad-11e8-83e5-4dc2d31f2a89



Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Diverbaz 1 on December 07, 2018, 12:00:24 PM


This can be batted backwards and forwards quoting this source and that source for and against. The "peoples" vote happened in 2016, 2 easy questions, stay or leave, the vote was leave and that vote should be honoured, end of.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 07, 2018, 12:56:08 PM
Well said that man   :)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 07, 2018, 13:01:29 PM
Lol. The Health Minister Matt Hancock has literally just talked about rationing prescription medicines and chartering planes to fly in supplies in a No Deal scenerio. This country has lost its marbles.

Anyway, again, do you prefer May's deal or No Deal?

Or Remain?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: strange on December 07, 2018, 14:24:53 PM


This can be batted backwards and forwards quoting this source and that source for and against. The "peoples" vote happened in 2016, 2 easy questions, stay or leave, the vote was leave and that vote should be honoured, end of.

One thing from my view point is that if there is this 'so called' Peoples Vote (they are just scared of trying to sell a second referendum) then Remain must NOT be an option on the ballot paper.
The Country voted to leave, so if this isn't a 2nd referendum, then it should just give options on how you want the exit to happen (i.e. hard Brexit, or Mays Deal, or 'leave in name only but stay in the single market but have no say', or seriously work the F*****g thing out (sorry))
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 07, 2018, 15:39:41 PM
Why wouldn’t Remain be on the ballot? 
Most people I know who voted Leave have now changed their minds, which is their prerogative.  Is it that brexiteers are frightened of a majority in favour of Remain?
Brexiteers told lies to an appalling extent and spent more than they should have. There is an allegation that Russian money was involved.
Who do you think would vote in a second referendum?  That too would be a people’s vote, but a better informed people’s vote.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on December 07, 2018, 15:51:31 PM
How many referendums do we have until remainers are happy?
We voted leave. We should leave without being joined by custom union.
Cameron spent 9 million of taxpayers money to keep us in EU. Project fear has proven to be a lie.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Diverbaz 1 on December 07, 2018, 15:53:29 PM
1.Why wouldn’t Remain be on the ballot?  Because remain lost, it only needs sorting out how we leave.

2.Brexiteers told lies to an appalling extent.  And the remain side didn't!!!!!!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 07, 2018, 17:00:30 PM
Remain is not yet an option
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on December 07, 2018, 19:34:19 PM
The majority of voters have already said no to remain so another vote including remain is not required.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: peter16 on December 07, 2018, 20:24:40 PM
Not the majority of voters but a small majority of those who voted. There is a difference.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 07, 2018, 20:49:49 PM
I think everyone knew what 1calis meant.

More people voted to leave than voted to remain.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: peter16 on December 07, 2018, 21:05:00 PM
Now that is an accurate statement. however to say that an option to remain should not be included in another referendum is to deny people the democratic right to change their vote.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 07, 2018, 21:09:22 PM
Just saying.......

https://www.facebook.com/ChangeBritain/videos/247653072312386/
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 07, 2018, 21:21:08 PM
however to say that an option to remain should not be included in another referendum is to deny people the democratic right to change their vote.


Is it not the democratic right of people who voted leave to expect those that voted remain to respect the result of the referendum.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: saoirse on December 08, 2018, 07:23:03 AM
 With the UK public in an almost 50/50 split I reckon a break up of the UK ( in the medium term ) will be the result as there's going to be such a sizeable section on the, " losing" side whatever the eventual outcome.

Reruning the referendum may/may not reverse the result- but there's going to be roughly a "losing " half yet again

At no point are Brexiteers going to rally behind remaining or Remainers support Brexit hence for those regions with the option of remaining via independence - a split becomes ever more attractive

Part of my reasoning behind this is quite simple

Post Brexit Britain is going to be very different. 

As they have already shown the Rees Mogg Boris type little Englander elites running the show will barely be able to disguise their disdain for the Scots/ Paddies. That in itself will be petrol on the fire of independence even before we see how they allocate funding etc

__________________

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on December 08, 2018, 07:43:51 AM
And do the Scots/Paddys,show distain t o the rest of the UK?😎😎
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: saoirse on December 08, 2018, 08:26:05 AM
You'd be better questioning the attitudes of the privileged chinless wonder elite of the Mogg/ Johnson types who show disdain to all of those who weren't part of the Bullingdon cabal!!

As regards those of us seeking independence/ unity- if/ when you create your inward looking insular throwback utopia you're welcome to it but don't drag those of a more progressive mindset down with you

Breaking news....the Empires long gone!!!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 08, 2018, 09:20:24 AM
And do the Scots/Paddys,show distain t o the rest of the UK?😎😎

What utter nonsense - no the vast majority of Scots DO NOT show disdain for the rest of the UK and it's simply ridiculous to suggest that they do.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 08, 2018, 14:25:06 PM
So when, as last time a General Election is called after two years, why wasn’t there a big “the people have voted, and the losers should understand that” response??
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 08, 2018, 16:04:50 PM
Sorry Lindsey - I'm not following that (probably just me) :-[
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 08, 2018, 17:02:13 PM
davybill - have I misread your post ? :-[
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 09, 2018, 23:43:21 PM
I doubt it.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 10, 2018, 06:04:51 AM
What I meant was that -
People are saying having a People’s Vote is anti democratic, because a referendum was held two years ago, and any new vote would be a betrayal of the Leave voters wishes.
Mrs May called a General Election only two years after the one before.  No one said that was undemocratic, or that it was betraying the wishes of the people who’d voted in the last GE.

In other news, there’s a post on Facebook right now stating - falsely - that the EU have given grants for firms to move from the U.K. 

I know just what saoirse means about disdain towards Scotland and Northern Ireland.  Scotland was barely mentioned in the Agreement being voted on tomorrow, and I don’t remember the Irish border issue being spoken about much in 2016, which is strange as it’s become one of the biggest stumbling blocks in the whole of the negotiations.  In the event of a no deal, I can see no alternative to there being a hard border, as the technology to monitor movement of goods doesn’t currently exist;  this doesn’t seem to bother the ardent leavers in parliament.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on December 10, 2018, 10:13:46 AM
How many votes shall the people have before every ones happy?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Scunner on December 10, 2018, 10:22:52 AM
From where we are now, where nobody is happy?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on December 10, 2018, 10:34:27 AM
The Eu says we can cancel brexit, no suprise there then.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 10, 2018, 10:48:11 AM
No, no surprise.

Guess what? The EU respects the sovereignty of its members.

Doesn't fit in with your narrative, does it?




Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 10, 2018, 11:39:35 AM
What's the betting May's about to abondon the vote and attempt to kick the can down the road yet again?

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 10, 2018, 13:11:53 PM
How many votes shall the people have before every ones happy?

I think just one vote that isn't criminally-tainted would work well.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: peter16 on December 10, 2018, 14:43:57 PM
May just cancel Tuesday's vote, realizes even her MP's know how stupid and bad her deal is compared with what we have now.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 11, 2018, 12:57:46 PM
The thing is, the best way to understand Theresa May’s predicament is to imagine that 52 percent of Britain had voted that the government should build a submarine out of cheese. Now, Theresa May was initially against building a submarine out of cheese, obviously. Because it’s a completely insane thing to do. However, in order to become PM, she had to pretend that she thought building a submarine out of cheese was fine and could totally work.

"Cheese means cheese," she told us all, madly. Then she actually built one. It’s sh*t. Of course it is. For God’s sake, are you stupid? It’s a submarine built out of cheese. So now, having built a sh*t cheese submarine, she has to put up with both Labour and Tory Brexiters insisting that a less sh*t cheese submarine could have been built.

Only she can’t call them out on this. Because she has spent the past two years also lying, by pretending she really could build a decent submarine out of cheese. So that’s where we are.

(stolen from Hugh Rikfind of The Times - from Twitter)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on December 11, 2018, 13:28:19 PM
No, no surprise.
Democracy does😁😁😎
Guess what? The EU respects the sovereignty of its members.

Doesn't fit in with your narrative, does it?





Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on December 11, 2018, 13:57:37 PM
Making a submarine out of cheese is of course stupid and does not represent brexit. Leaving Europe to majority of voters,ie those who voted, makes more sense than being part of the corrupt EU.
May has always wanted,as a remainer, to keep us tied to EU despite referendum result saying opposite. She should be replaced by a brexit supporter.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on December 11, 2018, 18:06:19 PM
(https://beta-static.photobucket.com/images/t301/KayaKoyuWalker/3/1a813564-9b3a-4100-be4b-ed30615b1d52-original.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://beta.photobucket.com/u/KayaKoyuWalker/p/1a813564-9b3a-4100-be4b-ed30615b1d52)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: peter16 on December 11, 2018, 18:10:06 PM
Why do people continue with the age old bu****it about a corrupt EU,  Are they any more corrupt than USA or Russia etc.
 Do they think the UK is pure and innocent and a model to be copied. Face the fact that perhaps a large number of people may have changed their minds about Brexit and wish a new vote.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Bluwise on December 11, 2018, 18:45:44 PM
We only had opinions and lies -  There were few facts and no actual plan when we voted first time.  Is it any different now?
Yes, I have the right to a vote but please, don't pass the buck over this way as I have no idea what the "truth" is.. .....
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Dennis Vint on December 12, 2018, 09:10:08 AM
Excellent plan KKOB............clear, correct and concise.  Perhaps it should be copied to our politicians as a blueprint to guide them through future deliberations.  "That's the way to do it!"   ;D  8)  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on December 12, 2018, 11:22:04 AM
Confidence vote on Teresa May this evening, will she survive it?
I think she will.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: peter16 on December 12, 2018, 12:07:22 PM
Sadly I to think she will.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 12, 2018, 13:22:08 PM
What or who is the alternative(s)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: thebillet on December 12, 2018, 14:26:29 PM
Who or what are the alternatives? Well let us all be clear she has set a very high standard which will be very difficult to exceed or even match. Let's face it :-
1. The guy who held up the P45 at the Conservative conference, you know the one where she found it difficult to complete her words and the stage props kept falling down was very prescient.
2. Her record at the Home office which left us with the creation of a hostile environment in which Windrush citizens were treated, well you know how they were treated.
3. She called a general Election and lost her majority - such skillful judgement and such campaigning really shows there is no one like her.
4. She started the clock on Article 50 without any idea of where she wanted the country to be following negotiations, she didn't even have agreement with her own party about what the negotiations should deliver.
5. She turned a deaf ear to Scotland and Wales in respect of what they wanted from negotiations while buying DUP support which they have now withdrawn.
6. Tried the tactic of saying "No deal is better than a bad deal" it didn't frighten the EU. In fact probably made them less sympathetic.
7. Delivered a plan no one seems to like and she won't allow a vote on...yet.

All this against a backdrop of increases to children in poverty, homelessness, use of food banks and the prospect of Universal Credit being rolled out nationally. Oh and Sterling is doing great isn't it!

Is there really no alternative to Mrs May? Seriously, no alternative?

I for one just have a hunch that someone might do a better job.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 13, 2018, 07:21:17 AM
What or who is the alternative(s)

Next Tory leader, latest odds:
The one who lied on a bus 6-1
The one who lied about impact assessments 8-1
The one who lied to Parliament and resigned 10-1
The one who lied and didn’t resign 15-1
The one who destroyed the NHS 20-1
The one who didn’t know we were an island 8-1
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Scunner on December 13, 2018, 08:07:22 AM
I would strongly advise that any submarine is not made out of that cheese with holes in.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on December 13, 2018, 18:41:45 PM
(https://beta-static.photobucket.com/images/t301/KayaKoyuWalker/3/a4daea9d-0164-47c0-a776-308832a40137-original.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 14, 2018, 05:12:32 AM
What’s going to happen now, I ask myself!
Seems it’s either May’s plan, or nothing.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on December 14, 2018, 08:02:49 AM
Yes KKOB, my ambition was to live to see the end of the DFS sale,
now its to see the end of ; BREXIT. ;D ;D 8) 8)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Scunner on December 14, 2018, 08:33:22 AM
The end of Brexit as in not leaving? :D
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: peter16 on December 14, 2018, 10:34:06 AM
Scunner, I hope you're correct, remaining is the only sane solution especially for our children's prosperity and security.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 14, 2018, 11:49:02 AM
On LBC, Theo Usherwood said that Merkel interrupted May's speech today a number of times by asking "what is it exactly what you want?"

TM, like Brexiters in general simply don't know what they want. They have a list of what they don't want, but are seemingly unable to acknowledge the trade-offs involved.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on December 14, 2018, 11:52:23 AM
The end of Brexit as in not leaving? :D
Thats debatable?He He  ;)
  ;)  ;) :angel: :-X
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on December 14, 2018, 13:25:45 PM
EU seems unwilling to negotiate so best way forward is no deal. Vote was for brexit so it must be honoured.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 14, 2018, 13:47:28 PM
Only disaster capitalists, extreme free-marketeer nut jobs and complete idiots want No Deal.

Meanwhile, 2016:

(https://i.postimg.cc/30H154Q9/Screenshot-20181214-134003-com-android-chrome.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/30H154Q9)

2018:

(https://i.postimg.cc/23fgf3wP/Screenshot-20181214-134113-com-android-chrome.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/23fgf3wP)

Glad to see the EU cracking down on corruption.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 14, 2018, 13:51:44 PM
EU seems unwilling to negotiate so best way forward is no deal. Vote was for brexit so it must be honoured.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 14, 2018, 13:56:24 PM
EU seems unwilling to negotiate so best way forward is no deal. Vote was for brexit so it must be honoured.

That is a very strange way of looking at what actually happened.

Merkel repeatedly asked exactly what it was Theresa May wanted from the EU this morning.

Theresa May didn't have an answer.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on December 15, 2018, 10:00:24 AM
 Theresa May is on a no deal situation from both sides.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on December 15, 2018, 15:15:22 PM
May does not want anything from the EU as she wants to stay part of EU. She has even said if her deal, with the backstop, is not accepted there may be no brexit. She is hoping.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 15, 2018, 15:23:12 PM
Icalis, do you really think there was a better deal to be had?  Do you think if Boris had stormed in all guns blazing, the EU would have capitulated and given us a great deal?  Do you believe in the tooth fairy, Santa and unicorns? 
Why would they give us a good deal;  as soon as A50 was submitted, we were leaving and they owed us nothing - quite the reverse. 
I could have predicted the current situation two years ago.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on December 16, 2018, 09:13:32 AM
I dont think anyone exspected anything from the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 16, 2018, 12:47:26 PM
Why would we have, davybill? 
If you left a golf club, you wouldn’t expect to keep on playing for nothing. 
The EU has trade agreements with over 70 countries they can import from/export to;  I think we overestimate our own importance in the scheme of things.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 16, 2018, 13:38:11 PM
I dont think anyone exspected anything from the EU.

But you were told to expect "The easiest deal in human history", weren't you?

I didn't hear any leaver say that statement, and many other similar to that was a load of old cobblers at the time.

And when economists, trade negotiators and general "experts" said it a load of old cobblers, it was shouted down as "project fear".

I will say it again, you were lied to. Worse still, the liars are still lying.

The latest lie being the preposterous so-called "Managed No Deal". Yet again, a meaningless term thrown around like confetti. It means, as usual, whatever who's saying it wants it to mean, yet it is strangely never detailed or explained because once they try to, they know they will get laughed at.

I've heard leavers like David Davis talk about leaving on No Deal, then using the Transition period to "sort things out". The fatal flaw in that is if there is no deal, then there will simply be no transition period at all. The man is simply clueless. This was the same David Davis who is still waiting for the German car manufacturers to ride in from somewhere over the horizon to save us, and also the same David Davis who believed that we could do bilteral Trade Deals in France and Germany, the same David Davis who thought we would *by now* have already have negotiated Free Trade Agreements with an economic value to us far greater than the EU and the same David Davis who thought that the Irish border was an internal UK border so "no problemo".
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on December 16, 2018, 15:14:48 PM
Unlike many remainers I do not rely on others to make my way in life. Too many snowflakes and milleniums cannot manage without relying on others. The 'there is no such thing as failure' generations. It was majority of them who voted remain. No knowledge of life outside EU yet telling us how we need to be part of it.
 Leave with no deal and be free of the leeching corrupt EU.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 17, 2018, 06:07:19 AM
So, iCalis, you’re saying over 16 million people are snowflakes and millennials?  A shocking generalisation if you don’t mind me saying so.
I’m 68 years old and worked for over 40 years without receiving any benefits apart from Family Allowance;  my husband could say the same. 
Every single country in the world relies on others to some extent;  we live on islands with barely any manufacturing industry or natural resources like oil or mineral deposits.  Our climate is not conducive to growing all our own food. 
If I want to buy a car, a fridge, clothing, or even a bunch of bananas, I would have to rely on another country to supply it.
Yes, the EU is not perfect and needs some reform, but they do not have a monopoly on corruption - few countries, if any, are free of it.
Why do you think that paragon of virtue Trump is so keen on Brexit;  if anyone believes it’s because he loves us because his mother was born here, they’re being naive and, in my opinion, stupid.  He wants to sell us stuff, like tainted foods, and for his insurance companies to get their dirty hands on our NHS.

I see today that May has said a second vote would be “a betrayal of The  People”.  Who does she think would vote in such a vote other than The People?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on December 17, 2018, 07:27:56 AM
Trumps dirty hands😎😎
 on the nhs you have a vivid imagination
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 17, 2018, 09:54:48 AM
Who voted in 2016 LindseyMitchell?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: madmart on December 17, 2018, 15:08:34 PM
So, iCalis, you’re saying over 16 million people are snowflakes and millennials?  A shocking generalisation if you don’t mind me saying so.

That is no worse than the almost constant abuse that has been coming from the Remain camp since the referendum in my opinion. The old saying 'if you can't take it don't dish it out' springs to mind.

One question for everyone though.

IF there is another referendum and the result is the same will BOTH sides stfu and honour and respect democracy in action as that is what has been patently missing for the last 2 years?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 17, 2018, 15:28:55 PM
No vivid imagination, davybill, when Hunt was in charge, he had several meetings with health insurance companies in New York;  it was reported on at the time.  Also, TM has repeatedly denied ruling out American involvement in the nhs as part of a future trade deal.

My own daughter voted to Leave, having read up on the subject thoroughly at the time, and now admits she was convinced leaving would be a good thing because of duff information or not enough information,  She is not stupid by any means, but I think she is typical of a big chunk of our population.  I actually saw someone on the BBC news saying he’d voted leave to stop Indians and Pakistanis coming here!

Why are brexiteers so scared of another referendum I wonder?

At the start of a trial, many jurors may think a defendant is guilty having heard the opening words of the prosecutor.  However, days or weeks later, when they’re in possession of all the facts, they may change their minds. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 17, 2018, 16:33:38 PM
Can someone give me one valid reason why people who voted leave should accept the result of a second vote.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 17, 2018, 16:47:43 PM
If there were to be a General Election next week, and your party lost, would you refuse to accept the result?  Same thing.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: madmart on December 17, 2018, 17:20:58 PM
Like remain are doing over the referendum? EXACTLY the same thing.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 17, 2018, 17:32:36 PM
May point exactly madmart.

We had a vote and the result was that the majority voted to leave.

If the Remainers think they have a democratic right to refuse to accept that result, then presumably then will concede that Leavers have a democratic right to refuse to accept the second result if it was to remain.

 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: MrT on December 17, 2018, 21:42:03 PM
If there were to be a General Election next week, and your party lost, would you refuse to accept the result?  Same thing.

not really bothered I voted remain but the three people in my family who voted leave have all changed their minds now.

and the opinion polls show that sway
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: MrT on December 17, 2018, 22:04:18 PM
If there were to be a General Election next week, and your party lost, would you refuse to accept the result?  Same thing.

Im not really bothered anymore. I voted remain but the three people in my family who voted leave have all changed their minds now. It was a bull**** idea Im not educated enough to know if leaving the UK would make us worse off or better off, a degree in fine art and a teaching certificate leaves me far short of that decision.

Most of the people in the factory I work in voted for racist reasons to keep foreigners out of the UK as we do employ quite a few eastern european workmates ,who are now good friends to me.  Im pretty sure much of the remain UK was just because of that reason alone.

The opinion polls now show minds have changed since the pound is worth not much more than the euro and pensions funds have dropped massivley. Ive put almost 5k in my pension this year and it increased by only 2k as the ftse 100 has dropped and dropped. have a second vote , then you will have a third. Im out

Pension out at 55 in a few months   and Im off Fethiye here I come
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 17, 2018, 22:10:32 PM
I wish you the very best with your move to Turkey but does the 25 % inflation rate not bother you.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 17, 2018, 22:16:31 PM
I like this post on the other place

"My main reason for voting to leave the European Union was to give our Members Of Parliamnet the chance to run our country.

I didn't realise how few of them really wanted the job."
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: daveG on December 18, 2018, 11:59:57 AM
Mr.T the pension situation is the reason we bought in 2004. Having been sh1t from high with Equitable Life I thought
it was totally out of my control so in 2003 went shopping in Fethiye, with funds I would have otherwise locked into pensions. Fourteen year's later with many happy memories and no regrets. Just a word of caution if possible try to keep a bolthole in UK. :angel:
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: MrT on December 18, 2018, 13:23:18 PM
I wish you the very best with your move to Turkey but does the 25 % inflation rate not bother you.

Not Really,  Never got the chance to travel when I was young so fancy a bit of an adventure before I get too old.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: MrT on December 18, 2018, 13:27:14 PM
Mr.T the pension situation is the reason we bought in 2004. Having been sh1t from high with Equitable Life I thought
it was totally out of my control so in 2003 went shopping in Fethiye, with funds I would have otherwise locked into pensions. Fourteen year's later with many happy memories and no regrets. Just a word of caution if possible try to keep a bolthole in UK. :angel:

Plan is to Rent our house in the UK and then rent a place near Fethiye for a couple of years at least. The reason we visited last Christmas was just to get a feel of the place out of season.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 18, 2018, 15:01:02 PM
So we're on a war footing.

This is of course completely normal.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on December 18, 2018, 15:12:50 PM
Yeah, best get enough supplies in for the next 30 days as the shops will be shutting for 12 hours over Christmas.  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 18, 2018, 15:58:17 PM
Ho. Ho. Ho.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 19, 2018, 11:44:52 AM
Whatever anyone and nearly everyone says, Brexiteers will call it project fear.

It’s as clear as the nose on your face that a no deal Brexit would be disastrous for the U.K.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 19, 2018, 13:19:09 PM
respect democracy in action

Theresa May has blocked:

Legal documentation on her Brexit deal
Cabinet vote on her deal
Parliamentary vote on her deal
People’s vote on her deal
Parliamentary vote of no confidence on her deal.

Is that the democracy you want?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: madmart on December 19, 2018, 14:09:49 PM
respect democracy in action

Theresa May has blocked:

Legal documentation on her Brexit deal
Cabinet vote on her deal
Parliamentary vote on her deal
People’s vote on her deal
Parliamentary vote of no confidence on her deal.

Is that the democracy you want?


Oh dear the king of copy and paste strikes again.

Read the whole quote and not just a selective bit to suit yourself.

Tell you what whilst your at it, instead of you asking questions all the time. How about YOU answering the question after the bit you quoted, or didn't you get that far?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 19, 2018, 14:23:20 PM
Is that the democracy you want?

As I said.......

If the Remainers think they have a democratic right to refuse to accept the result, then presumably they will concede that Leavers have a democratic right to refuse to accept the second result if it were to be remain.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on December 19, 2018, 15:01:36 PM
Remainers will not accept anything that is not there own way.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 19, 2018, 16:15:34 PM
If I could ignore the outright lies by the Leave campaign, the criminal electoral fraud, the dark money which fuelled Cambridge Analytica and the foreign meddling in the referendum process, I would respect the original referendum result.

As it stands and for the reasons above, I can't.

Furthermore the referendum question - a simple binary question - was plain stupid. Leave the EU? Sure - just tell me "how". That was never on the ballot.

Now we know how Brexit actually looks - either like May's deal or No Deal, who in their right mind still thinks those promises made by the Leave campaign - the ones you voted on the basis of - were true? Were you told that the army would be deploying 3500 troops, that the government have converted a motorway into a lorry park and the UK government is currently the world's biggest purchaser of fridges?

That's why we need a new referendum - based on the facts this time.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: peter16 on December 19, 2018, 20:07:57 PM
Highlander, like a lot of others you seem to think 2016 was the first referendum on the EU, sorry to remind you but it was the second because the first was in 1975, then the country voted really overwhelmingly for the EU(common market). Remainers did think the leavers had a democratic right to another vote unlike now when for some reason the leavers think that democracy is no longer required once (by reason of illegality, lies, election fraud etc) they very narrowly won the third referendum.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 19, 2018, 21:54:10 PM
peter16

I am fully aware, like many others that there was a vote in 1975.

And forgive me but I am not sure what your point is. Can you explain please.

In the meantime I think every knows what is being discussed with reference to the 2016 referendum and the possibilty of another.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 19, 2018, 22:37:16 PM
Is that the democracy you want?

Do you believe that the UK can every again have a referendum on an issue of national importance.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on December 20, 2018, 07:07:13 AM
99 Days we Leave the EU. Either way.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on December 20, 2018, 07:35:42 AM
Highlander, like a lot of others you seem to think 2016 was the first referendum on the EU, sorry to remind you but it was the second because the first was in 1975, then the country voted really overwhelmingly for the EU(common market).


1975 was a vote on the EEC. 2016 was a vote on the EU. Two completely different organisations. We never had a vote to join the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on December 20, 2018, 10:22:17 AM
Is that the democracy you want?

Do you believe that the UK can every again have a referendum on an issue of national importance.

It depends on whether the issue is clearly defined and can realistically be asked in a single, simple question. The question should be something like "What relationship should we have with the EU?", rather than "In or out?", but that of course wouldn't work because you'd have about 39m different answers.

Does anybody seriously believe that we should sever all ties to Europe? - You are talking food shortages, medicine shortages, travel disruption and a serious hit to the economy and jobs. That is wilful self-harm.

If you want "some" relationship, then why is May's deal universally unpopular? If anyone thinks they can do better than May, then they're welcome to present their plan. But then again, the EU are done with negotiating and we are at the 11th hour.

What do you prefer, Highlander - No deal or May's deal?



Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on December 20, 2018, 16:03:58 PM
Some are really taken in by project fear lies.
We voted out so no ties,eg custom union,with EU. Can deal with EU without being part of it the same as rest of the world does.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 21, 2018, 10:15:53 AM
So every business, business organisation, doctor, economist, banker, airline, ex pat and journalist is lying;  why would they do that?
Jeremy Hunt has stated that the government ave bought hundreds of fridges to stockpile essential medicines.  A plane is on standby to bring cancer treating isotopes to the UK, parts of Kent have been turned into lorry parks, and holiday companies have warned of severe travel disruption.  Food rationing May well happen.  Are these all lies?
Other countries in the World already have trade deals in place.  We don’t.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 21, 2018, 11:46:22 AM
Have the CBI not backed the deal on the table ?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 21, 2018, 13:50:02 PM
I think iCalis was talking about a No Deal Brexit, Highlander, which the CBI have said will be disastrous, as does anyone else who wants the best for the U.K.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on December 21, 2018, 15:23:52 PM
So every business, business organisation, doctor, economist, banker, airline, ex pat and journalist is lying;

 Every business? Not all support remain.
 Every expat? Have they all been asked?
 Every economist? Carney has been found to be wrong on a number of occasions.
 Project fear spreads its web to the gullible.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 21, 2018, 18:26:34 PM
Yes, some business leaders, like Bamford and the Wetherspoons owner support Brexit, but these people are millionaires who are unlikely to suffer from the effects of No Deal;  do you think they care if us plebs suffer?  In the last war, we had rationing, but the rich could still eat at the Ritz.
I’ve seen lots of interviews with expats, who are bitter they weren’t allowed a vote..  One retiree, a diabetic, turned up at his pharmacy every month with his E111 form for his insulin;  after Brexit, this will cost him £1800 a month.  Will he stay there;  I don’t think so.  He is not an isolated case.  How many pensioners do you know who don’t rely on their prescriptions?
Carney predicted a big downturn after Brexit, and the right wing press are gloating that he’s been proved wrong.  Brexit hasn’t happened yet, so we’ll see if his predictions were right or not then. 
80,000 businesses have today received a government contingency plan for a No Deal Brexit.  Firms like Toyota rely on a constant supply of parts;  if those parts are stuck in Dover, hundreds of workers will be laid off.
Project Fear has it’s basis in hard facts.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 21, 2018, 22:08:12 PM
Lindsey

What does the fact that Tim Martin is a self made millionaire have to do with the agrument. (Incidently he provides employment for 37,000 people).

Tony Blair (who the last time I looked wasn't down to his last euro) is calling for a second referendum. Do you seriously think he cares about "us plebs"

Is it the case that ex-pats who have not lived abroad for more than fifteen years were allowed to vote ?

I understand that the present rules regarding the E111 issue will remain as is until 2020 and that there is no agreement thereafter.

Wit respect, twenty-one-plus grand a year seems a lot - may I ask who came up with this figure.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 21, 2018, 23:10:39 PM
I tried to add this in my last post but was timed out......

The UK paid out £674 million in health costs to European countries, but received only £49 million in return.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 22, 2018, 06:40:56 AM
I have no problem with Tim Martin, and have great respect and admiration for self made millionaires;  I’ve visited Wetherspoons pubs in many parts of the country.  The point I was trying to make was that, as a millionaire, he personally will be immune from many of the effects of Brexit which will be suffered by the population as a whole.
I agree with Tony Blair that there should be a second referendum, with ‘Remain’ as an option.  He too would have the same immunity which would be enjoyed by Tim Martin, but seems to care more about the effects on the general population.  I am not bitter about TB making millions;  I did not contribute to his wealth.
No ex pat received a vote on Brexit, and £1800 was the figure the man was quoted for his insulin by his pharmacy.  I don’t see why he would lie.
As for the discrepancy in health costs, I would ask how many Brits visit Spain, France, Italy and other European countries on holiday and how many Spaniards come here?  How many British retirees and workers live in Spain and France compared to how many Spaniards live here.  I can’t imagine Spanish pensioners wanting to retire here.
Pensioners cost a lot in terms of healthcare, and many will have to eventually sell up and return to the U.K.  They will have to sell their Spanish, French or Italian villas and apartments, probably at knock down prices due to a glut on the market, and it is unlikely that many of them will not be able to afford to buy homes here.  Where will they live?  Will they contribute to the economy in terms of tax and national insurance as Polish and Eastern Europeans do, and will they live happily ever after;  I think not.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on December 22, 2018, 08:04:12 AM
Will you and the remainers be happy if there is a second referendom
And the vote is still leave?Idoubt it.😎😎
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 22, 2018, 09:11:42 AM
Yes, I would, davybill especially if the canvassers’ accounts are properly audited, and it can be proved without doubt that there was no foreign interference in the campaign.
Two and a half  a years on from the referendum, anyone who hasn’t been in a cave now knows 99% more about the effects of Brexit than they did then, so would make a more informed choice.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: madmart on December 22, 2018, 10:07:30 AM
Lindsay

Why should ex-pats have had a vote on Brexit?
By moving to Turkey surely they have decided already to live outside the EU.
Excuse my ignorance on this but surely they don't get to vote in normal elections either.
Title: Re: Brexi
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 22, 2018, 12:31:16 PM
Expats living in the EU should have had a vote, in my opinion.  The outcome will affect their lives to a great extent, in some cases as much as those still living here. 
Had they voted, I feel sure we wouldn’t be having this conversation now, as Brexit would be like s nightmare we had two years ago.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: madmart on December 22, 2018, 12:52:41 PM
So now you are saying that only those who live in the EU should have been allowed to vote in the referendum.

Is that because they would be more likely to vote the way you wanted?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on December 22, 2018, 14:27:46 PM
and it can be proved without doubt that there was no foreign interference in the campaign.

 So there should not have been Mark Carney and Obama getting airtime to support remain.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: faymoore on December 22, 2018, 14:28:55 PM
Expats living in the EU should have had a vote, in my opinion.  The outcome will affect their lives to a great extent, in some cases as much as those still living here. 
Had they voted, I feel sure we wouldn’t be having this conversation now, as Brexit would be like s nightmare we had two years ago.

With respect, I don't see why Ex Pats should have a vote...where do you draw a line on those eligible?

I'm also pretty certain they will be effected, as will the UK and pretty much the rest of Europe.
But, they left the UK to better their lives in sunnier climes...leaving the UK means leaving the UK surely!

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 22, 2018, 15:07:57 PM
Of course not, madmart, I meant as well as us.
I honestly believe Russia had a big influence on the vote;  it’s in their interest to destabilise Europe.  I remember a few weeks ago, a businessman admitted to receiving a donation from Russia for his Leave organisation.
Yes, Obama stated he thought we should remain, but he hasn’t been as vociferous as Trump, who wants us to leave, for sinister reasons in my opinion. 
It has also been proved the Leave campaign overspent on referendum business, against electoral law.
Yes, Carney is Canadian, but he’s not a bystander in this matter, he’s Governor of the Bank of England, and as such would be in dereliction of his duties if he didn’t observe and comment.  I believe he has good evidence to support his comments.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 22, 2018, 15:27:38 PM
Lindsey - do you believe that EU citizens living in the UK should have a vote.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on December 22, 2018, 17:36:54 PM
Both Carney and Osborne have been proven to have been wrong with their project fear. No lies about the brexit campaign been proven.
Did not receive any interference from Russia in my descision. How many did?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 22, 2018, 19:09:50 PM
No, I don’t, Highlander;  this is our mess, of our doing.  The Brits in Europe are still Brits, and some of them still have homes in the U.K. like ex pats in Turkey do.
The ‘Project Fear’ was based on what would happen after we left the EU.  They can’t possibly be proved wrong until next year.
Putin is a big fan of Brexit;  we’d be fools if we believed this was because of love for our country, or that he had a desire for us to do well.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 22, 2018, 20:27:24 PM
Had they voted, I feel sure we wouldn’t be having this conversation now, as Brexit would be like s nightmare we had two years ago.

Not so !

All other things being equal, even if 100 % of them voted to remain, then remain might have won by a miniscule margin.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 22, 2018, 21:22:57 PM
The Leave vote wasn’t exactly overwhelmingly. 
Considering the fact that we were all, Leavers and Remainers, ignorant of all the ins and outs of what brexit would entail (I voted on my gut feelings at the time) and that the margin of victory was quite small on June 23rd 2016, I believe there are good grounds for a second referendum.
The government and the people are completely divided at the moment.  I think another vote would settle the matter once and for all, and unite the country once more.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 22, 2018, 21:42:19 PM
I think another vote would settle the matter once and for all, and unite the country once more.

Lindsey - really ?

One thing is for certain -17,410,472 people won't feel united if the result is remain.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 22, 2018, 22:14:59 PM
I got time out when editing my last post so here is what I wanted to re-post

Lindsey with genuine respect

.... the Leave vote was not exactly overwhelming......

the vote was to LEAVE not REMAIN overwhelming or not. What percentage would it have had to been before Remainers would have accepted it 55/45, 57/43, 60/40.......................

....good grounds for a second referendum

I realise I have asked this before but perhaps you could enlighten me......

If the Remainers think they have a democratic right to refuse to accept the result, then presumably they will concede that Leavers have a democratic right to refuse to accept the second result if it were to be remain.

.... "unite the country once and for all"

Really ?

One thing is for certain -17,410,472 people won't feel united if the result is remain.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 23, 2018, 06:50:15 AM
I think a two thirds majority would have settled the issue once and for all.  Yes, 17 million voted to Leave, but 16 million voted to Remain - don’t we count? 
The nation is currently divided into two camps.  One side have the view that a referendum was held two years ago, their side won, and we remainers should suck it up.  The Remain side believe that in the last two years, having seen the (pardon my language) ****storm that is now upon us, large numbers of leavers have now changed their minds. 
I truly believe that were a second referendum to be held now, people would be able to make a truly informed decision, which I think everyone would accept.  Happy days.
My turn to ask you;  would you accept the result of s second referendum, Highlander??
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: madmart on December 23, 2018, 09:55:29 AM
Would I accept the result of a second referendum? If it is 52 to 48 remain to leave i.e. last time reversed.

My first reaction is to give it as much respect as the leave camp have with the existing result. That is to say absolutely not, you didn't accept the previous result so why should I or anyone else who feels the same way? Sauce for geese and ganders springs to mind.

In my opinion the leave camp with their antics over this have set a very dangerous precedent for future elections for years to come.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Diverbaz 1 on December 23, 2018, 10:04:48 AM


If there were another vote, and as said some leavers have changed their minds and vote remain, say the outcome then was say, 49.99% remain and 50.1% leave, would the remainers then accept the vote after 2 referendums????
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: madmart on December 23, 2018, 10:20:02 AM


If there were another vote, and as said some leavers have changed their minds and vote remain, say the outcome then was say, 49.99% remain and 50.1% leave, would the remainers then accept the vote after 2 referendums????

There's two hopes of that; Bob Hope and no hope.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 1calis on December 23, 2018, 15:43:01 PM
The ‘Project Fear’ was based on what would happen after we left the EU.  They can’t possibly be proved wrong until next year.



 Osborne said if we voted leave there would be an emergency budget. False
 Osborne threatened if we vote leave he would have to increase tax rates. False.
 Both of these project fear lies were to be implemented after the vote and before we actually left.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 24, 2018, 08:18:08 AM
Whether Project Fear proves to be correct is a massive gamble, a leap in the dark.  Are you willing to risk food and medicine shortages (which may cause fatalities), large numbers of jobs being lost, farmers, hotels, factories and the NHS facing desperate staff shortages, travel disruption, a downturn in our economy, a decrease in our security measures, the return of the troubles in Northern Ireland, the NHS being operated by American insurance companies, and tainted American food in our shops, workers’ rights being taken away, our beaches being deregulated so they’re not blue flag quality any more, a drop in food quality standards together with price rises, and less availability of lovely European food and drink

- all for the sake of the erroneous idea that we’re ruled by Europe, whose laws and regulations are passed by democratically elected MEPs, and we can choose to veto or disregard if we wish, and immigrant workers, who have been proved time and time again to contribute more to the economy than they take out.

Osborne was possibly our worst ever Chancellor, and I’d struggle to believe him if he told me it was Christmas Day tomorrow!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on December 24, 2018, 09:46:38 AM
Well now its Osbourne then it was Trump and then Putin and Russia,and
Troubles in Northen Ireand . We are as ll in trouble  by the look of it..
Happy Brexit, everbody.😎😎😁😁
 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 24, 2018, 18:16:07 PM
.....and immigrant workers, who have been proved time and time again to contribute more to the economy than they take out.

Lindsey - I have to say that, as an average UK citizen, I strongly resent the claim that my net lifetime contribution is zero .
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 24, 2018, 21:36:32 PM
I wouldn’t ever dream of saying such a thing, Highlander.

What I did say was that taking everything into account, EU workers in this country add more to the economy than they take out.  My next door neighbour, for instance, is an Eastern European (Romanian) dentist;  their tax and national insurance contributions, the VAT they pay on the goods and services they buy, the council tax they pay, the nursery their kids attend all add up.  They’re young and healthy and educated, so I can’t imagine they’re a big drain on the health service.
At the end of our road is a thriving hand car wash run by Latvians.  Before they arrived, the site had been a disused filling station - an absolute eyesore.  They work 12 hours a day in all weathers, and offer a fantastic service to the community.  I feel ashamed that people like these are being made to feel unwelcome.
Luckily, our neighbours’ earnings will be well over the 30k cut off point for EU citizens living here, but that would not be the case if they were nurses, teachers, hotel or farm workers, or ran a car wash.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ian on December 24, 2018, 22:54:55 PM
Possibly not a very good example - we have one near us run by Eastern European’s and you only have to take one look at the employees faces - which I did on the one occasion I visited - to see they did not enjoy their work :

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/16/true-human-cost-5-pound-hand-car-wash-modern-slavery (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/16/true-human-cost-5-pound-hand-car-wash-modern-slavery)

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/environmental-audit/Hand-Car-Wash-evidence.pdf (https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/environmental-audit/Hand-Car-Wash-evidence.pdf)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 25, 2018, 06:38:40 AM
How many unskilled workers do enjoy their work?  Would you look happy washing cars for 12 hours in the cold?
These people can’t win;  if they stay at home, they’re lazy scroungers and if they work, they’re accused of taking jobs from British workers. 
We use our car wash regularly, and always get smiles and chats;  they have a pensioners’ day on Wednesdays.  As I write, the car wash is covered in Christmas lights.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on December 25, 2018, 07:04:56 AM
How many unskilled workers do enjoy their work?

Hundreds of thousands ! In many cases they stay in unskilled positions because they love the work. I've done several unskilled jobs in the past and thoroughly enjoyed the lack of stress. In fact I'm doing one now, working for a charity.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ian on December 25, 2018, 08:30:06 AM

How many unskilled workers do enjoy their work?  Would you look happy washing cars for 12 hours in the cold?
These people can’t win;  if they stay at home, they’re lazy scroungers and if they work, they’re accused of taking jobs from British workers. 
We use our car wash regularly, and always get smiles and chats;  they have a pensioners’ day on Wednesdays.  As I write, the car wash is covered in Christmas lights.


My real concern is about the people who run them - read the quote (and reports) from parliament and the anti slavery commissioner - the second or third page in - the one that reads:

The abuse of workers at hand car washes is especially pernicious; not only because it ruins lives as people willing to work hard are exploited and controlled, bedded down in metal boxes, ill fed and worked for illegally long hours on a pittance, but also because it thrives by embroiling an unwitting public in serious organised crime.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: madmart on December 25, 2018, 09:11:58 AM
How many unskilled workers do enjoy their work?


This is a classic example of the 'We know best' attitude of the remain camp / metropolitan elite.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on December 25, 2018, 10:35:44 AM
Merry Christmas to you and yours Lindsey

I wouldn’t ever dream of saying such a thing, Highlander.

"Average EU migrant nett contribution = £78,000.00
 Average UK citizen nett contribution = zero"


What I did say was that taking everything into account, EU workers in this country add more to the economy than they take out.  My next door neighbour, for instance, is an Eastern European (Romanian) dentist;  their tax and national insurance contributions, the VAT they pay on the goods and services they buy, the council tax they pay, the nursery their kids attend all add up.  They’re young and healthy and educated, so I can’t imagine they’re a big drain on the health service.

And a UK dentists' tax and national insurance contributions, the VAT they pay on the goods and services they buy, the council tax they pay, the nursery their kids attend does not all add up?

And is your Romanian neighbour going to be forever young and healthy ?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 25, 2018, 19:52:35 PM
I hope you and your family have had a really lovely Christmas with your family, Highlander xx

No, our neighbours won’t always be young and healthy, but as of now, they’re contributing more to the U.K. economy than many other young couples their age, who will also be old one day.  I know a woman my age who hasn’t worked since the 80s, was made redundant, and went on disability benefits with a bad back;  she now gets £50 a week more a week in pension than me who hasn’t had a complete year off work since I was 16.

Unskilled work on the whole tends to be low paid, repetitive and frankly, boring.  You ask a checkout operator, a warehouse worker, or a call centre operative if they look forward to going back to work after a few days off and see what answer you get.  I was self employed and often thought I’d like to work in a supermarket where I could clock off and not give work another thought, but the boredom and low pay would have driven me crackers.  I take my hat off to these people who I admire enormously.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: sadler on December 25, 2018, 20:54:23 PM
Happy Christmas, Lindsey. Respect and admiration.   :)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on December 25, 2018, 21:36:40 PM
...and the same to you, Sadler xx
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on January 04, 2019, 17:16:14 PM
No comment since Christmas Day.
Am I to take it you Brexiteers have now succumbed to our arguments, and have changed your minds?  I do hope so, as it’s looking like a No Deal scenario is on the cards.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on January 04, 2019, 17:47:47 PM

Am I to take it you Brexiteers have now succumbed to our arguments, and have changed your minds? 

Nope. We're just enjoying a bit of peace and quiet from you Remoaners.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on January 04, 2019, 17:59:16 PM
(https://beta-static.photobucket.com/images/t301/KayaKoyuWalker/3/f86d7777-d5cd-43b8-8a4b-8c26dfcb122d-original.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on January 04, 2019, 19:26:41 PM
Am I to take it you Brexiteers have now succumbed to our arguments, and have changed your minds?  I do hope so, as it’s looking like a No Deal scenario is on the cards.

Succumb to arguments such as this you mean.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4y5SmwNf/brexit.jpg)

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on January 04, 2019, 22:36:18 PM
I think you’ll find, Highlander, that the last two paragraphs of your quote cancel out the first paragraph.  Only 27% of the population voted for Brexit.
Hardly the will of the people.  A lot of the other 73% will have been on holiday in late June - as we were - and couldn’t be bothered to register for a postal vote.  I think that, like me and David Cameron, they expected a large majority for Remain, adding another reason not to vote, a decision they now bitterly regret.
Brexiteers know they’d be defeated in a second vote, to stop the madness.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: lynne on January 04, 2019, 23:12:52 PM
I think you’ll find, Highlander, that the last two paragraphs of your quote cancel out the first paragraph.  Only 27% of the population voted for Brexit.
Hardly the will of the people.  A lot of the other 73% will have been on holiday in late June - as we were - and couldn’t be bothered to register for a postal vote.  I think that, like me and David Cameron, they expected a large majority for Remain, adding another reason not to vote, a decision they now bitterly regret.
Brexiteers know they’d be defeated in a second vote, to stop the madness.

I haven't got involved in any of this but I am a little concerned about this quote. Am I right in thinking that you "couldn't be bothered" to register for a postal vote when you have such strong views? I vote every single time I am offered a vote - I would never not vote.  However, I do feel strongly that people who didn't vote really shouldn't complain about the outcome of any election.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on January 05, 2019, 06:44:01 AM
Well every body else moans, why shouldnt they.😁😁😁
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on January 05, 2019, 07:15:42 AM
A lot of the other 73% will have been on holiday in late June - as we were - and couldn’t be bothered to register for a postal vote. 

Now the constant whining makes sense !

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on January 05, 2019, 07:43:41 AM
We did register for a postal vote.  I also would never, ever, not vote.
Sitting round at breakfast at the Tugay Hotel that morning when the results were announced, everyone turned their chairs round to watch BBC News.  There was a lot of discussion.
From this discussion I learned that hardly anyone there had had a postal vote;  at the time, it was widely expected that the Remain side would win - all the polls predicted this.  It was going to be a walkover.  I would say a good three quarters of those present were shocked and dismayed, as we were.

As I write, policemen are being trained in preparation for deployment to Northern Ireland;  if there are fatalities there in the event of a No Deal Brexit, there will be blood on the hands of Brexiteers.
We seem to have given a 13.8 million pound contract for transporting food to a firm with no ships, and who copied and pasted their contract from a food delivery firm.
Yes, the EU will miss our contributions, but when firms continue to migrate to mainland Europe, the financial benefits will be huge.

I think of myself as a patriotic person;  we have many things to be proud of, but I do not share the Brexiteer dream of a 60s utopia (when England swung like a pendulum do!) when there were Buy British signs everywhere.  The world has moved on, but we seem to want to go into full reverse.  I wish I could take an optimism pill, but with no manufacturing of its own to speak of, I cannot imagine a world where plucky little Britain can go it alone.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: madmart on January 05, 2019, 09:24:12 AM
Therein lies a problem.

How many of the most vociferous Remainers thought it was a done deal and didn't bother to vote? In my opinion if you didn't vote you have no right to complain about the result of the ballot.

At the time of the referendum Mrs Madmart was on an extended holiday in Calis which meant she was out of the country at the time. I had to come home as I didn't have enough holiday entitlement that year. Before we left the country we arranged a Proxy Vote for my wife. We had a few hoops to jump through as there had previously been concerns of election fraud in Woking, (resulting in Woking being one of the areas where at the last election you had to produce ID at the polling station). This came through and I was able to vote on my wife's behalf.

At the same time my father was ill with terminal cancer in Cornwall where he lived, he took a major turn for the worse the weekend after I returned home and was admitted to hospital, when he was due to be discharged I went to my parents to collect him from the hospital so that he could be with my mother. I drove from Woking to Cornwall on the Monday before the vote. On the day of the referendum he had to return to the hospital for a quick check over and was then able to go home. This involved a 60 round trip from their house to the hospital. I had a quick cup of coffee and then jumped back in the car and drove back to Woking to cast our votes. Part of this drive involved my 3rd trip along the A39 from Bude to Barnstaple that day.

The upshot of this is to anyone who says they couldn't be bothered to make the arrangements to vote I say; you only have yourselves to blame.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on January 05, 2019, 10:04:51 AM
I think you’ll find, Highlander, that the last two paragraphs of your quote cancel out the first paragraph. 

Lindsey - as you know, it's not my quote it's something you re-posted in the other place. As I said there.....

Question: what percentage of the electorate and percentage of the population voted against Brexit ?. Answer less than voted for it

65% of the electorate didn't vote for Tony Blair but the country still got him !!!!

I know for a certain fact that if Remain had won it have been the called "the will of the British people".

What seems to being suggesting is that the government should have said to 17,410,742 people) the majority "thanks for your advice but you can shove it because some (and it IS only some) of your 16,141,241 opponents disagree with the result so we are going to take their advice instead.

Now we are being told that remainers, who are now so vociferous after the event, couldn't be bothered to get off there collective backsides and vote on the most important issue facing the country or were on holiday as if Brexiters cancelled theirs.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on January 05, 2019, 10:14:52 AM
Brexiteers know they’d be defeated in a second vote, to stop the madness.

And if so would that be the will of the people ?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on January 05, 2019, 10:20:57 AM
None of this negates the fact that Brexit is not now, in my opinion, the will of the people;  it’s like a car crash!!
Yes, lots of people voted for Tony Blair back in the day, but they later excercised their right to change their minds.  Rather like a couple who got married two years ago, and then divorce;  should their family and friends oppose the divorce as it was their will two years ago, even though they’re thoroughly miserable together?
Yes, Highlander, a second vote would be the will of the people, now they know the full implications, which no one (not even members of HM government) did at the time.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: madmart on January 05, 2019, 11:22:10 AM
The quote used earlier of course falls over in at least one major respect.

It assumes that all those who; a) didn't vote, b) couldn't be bothered to vote or c) whatever reason they can of think justifies not voting, were going to vote Remain. As they know only too well that is not going to be the case as many of those may well have voted Leave, but is yet another way of manipulating the figures to suit their own agenda.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on January 05, 2019, 11:50:42 AM
You’re absolutely right, madmart;  some, or even most of the people who didn’t vote may have voted Leave.
You missed my point though;  it is everyone’s prerogative to change their minds, as I truly believe a lot of people have, now they are aware of the way their lives will be affected in lots of different ways, viz:
Unemployment (do you think the likes of Toyota or Nissan will stay?)
Increased food prices, with tariffs placed on EU foods;  shortage of food too
Shortage of medicines - cancer isotopes are all imported, and most insulin
The ability of our people, especially the young, to live and work in Europe
The devastating effect on our NHS; we don’t have enough doctors and nurses, and if all or even a lot of these people go home, the NHS will collapse.  It takes years to train our own people.
Farmers and hoteliers will suffer greatly from staff shortages
Most of our fishermen sell their quotas now or export their catches to Europe.  No gain on sovereignty of our waters
And last, but not least...
The troubles may well return to Northern Ireland, and will our much depleted armed forces be able to cope?  I understand that May is trying to get the EU to agree to a 12 month time limit on the backstop.  They won’t.  If they did, what would happen then?  I can see no alternative to a hard border.
I’m sure I’ve forgotten some more of the horrors that await us, but I think that’s enough to be going on with.
Before you dismiss this as Project Fear, think of the emergency measures being taken for if we have a No Deal.  Either the fears are misplaced, or the government is being stupid. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on January 05, 2019, 14:36:34 PM
Lindsey - I understand that Mr Jeremy "for the many not the few" Corbyn would go ahead with Brexit if Labour won a snap election. (I know he believes he can negotiate a better deal, but I don't)

Do you think he would be right to do so.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: KKOB on January 05, 2019, 15:41:04 PM
(https://beta-static.photobucket.com/images/t301/KayaKoyuWalker/3/11aa4195-c1ca-4072-8f10-d2e09b726746-original.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on January 05, 2019, 18:10:49 PM
Highlander, I don’t believe anyone could have negotiated a better deal, despite what BoJo and JRM say.  We gave them a lot of time to work out their strategy, and they seem to have used it well.  Why would they give us a good deal when we are leaving and all the other countries are still paying their dues.

Brexit is the one thing I disagree with Corbyn about;  to be fair to him, he’s always supported Brexit, and hasn’t changed tack like May and BoJo.  He still has 90+% of my support though, as I believe he is principled and honest, despite what our millionaire owned press say about him.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on January 05, 2019, 19:48:31 PM
to be fair to him, he’s always supported Brexit, and hasn’t changed tack like May and BoJo. 

Always supported Brexit Lindsey - really

Why did he vote Remain then. ?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on January 06, 2019, 10:17:32 AM
Corbyn has been consistently eurosceptic ever since he voted against us joining in 1975;  his voting record shows he was against the Maastricht Agreement, and in 2017 spoke against remaining in the Single Market.
I am at a loss, frankly, why he voted Remain, unless it was to appease his constituency party.
This is the one thing on which our views differ.  I believe he is still at heart a Brexiteer.
On the other hand, I disagree with most Conservative policies, which have seen the very rich get very much richer, and the poor and the middle classes get considerably poorer. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: rusty on January 06, 2019, 10:26:13 AM
Fed up with hearing it all now, they need to just get on with job and get us OUT!!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on January 06, 2019, 10:37:56 AM
Well all those expecting a second referendum should realise that the government would need to introduce new legislation to be voted on by parliament.

No government wanting to remain in power would do such a thing.

Turkeys don’t vote for Xmas as far as I know.

As for Corbyn - he will say anything to get votes from anyone. The splinters on his arse must surely be hurting by now?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: peter16 on January 06, 2019, 11:01:57 AM
Stoop, you surely meant May not Corbyn  in that sentence! Don't let your bias against Corbyn cloud your posts which are sometimes amusing and informative.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: madmart on January 06, 2019, 11:17:43 AM

As for Corbyn - he will say anything to get votes from anyone. The splinters on his arse must surely be hurting by now?

I must admit I always thought that was the first thing any new MP learnt!

If ANY MP was to tell me it's raining I would look outside and check for myself.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Highlander on January 06, 2019, 11:41:31 AM
Stoop, you surely meant May not Corbyn  in that sentence! Don't let your bias against Corbyn cloud your posts which are sometimes amusing and informative.

And there is no bias against May ?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on January 06, 2019, 12:44:32 PM
I’m really biased against May, as are a lot of her ministers and numerous ex ministers, and the right wing press, who think she’s useless.

Look at the numbers who go to see her speak, and compare them with Corbyn’s huge crowds;  it would seem she’s not popular with CP members either, whose numbers have decreased rapidly of late - down to 124,000 members, a thousand less than the SNP.

Bribing the DUP to support her did not receive critical acclaim either.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on January 06, 2019, 14:50:52 PM
They like to to hear what stories Corbyns going to come up
with next.😎😎
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: stoop on February 22, 2019, 11:23:14 AM
I think 'oh Jeremy Corbyn' is on his last legs. The party is losing not only MP's but also thousands of members due to his refusal to sort out the anti semites and his refusal to have a clear strategy on Brexit.

Gone by the time the next election comes.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Scunner on February 22, 2019, 17:53:47 PM
I think 'oh Jeremy Corbyn' is on his last legs. The party is losing not only MP's but also thousands of members due to his refusal to sort out the anti semites and his refusal to have a clear strategy on Brexit.

Gone by the time the next election comes.

I think the opposite might happen. I'm a Labour supporter by the way before weget any further into this   :)

I admire Jeremy Corbyn, his humanity, his compassion etc and I have to say that people are very difficult to please - let me explain.

Politicians are expedient in their DNA; I understand that in a basic poll on the Begum woman 99% were in agreement that she should not be allowed to return to the UK (and again for the record I firmly am one of those 99%). The natural sense of a politician with a 99% vote share is to get on it and ride it - yet Corbyn stands by his priniciples on human rights and similar and is pulled apart.

But back to my thoughts that it may be the opposite to Stoop's idea that Corbyn could soon be gone. As I see it, I see Corbyn is mainly guilty of not grabbing opportunities to be popular and I can see a future where his Labour party with Abbott and the like remain, fiddling while the party disappears into near obscurity - and Social Democratic/New Labour type parties rise.

Do you want your elected MPs to do what is popular, or what is best, or what will get them re-elected, or what their concience & principles tells them is the right thing to do?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: saoirse on February 23, 2019, 09:28:17 AM
Couldn't agree more

JC very much a politician with true principles whom I am proud to have met on 2 occasions

When you look at the Brexiteer leadership rabble for example Johnson etc- they have and would switch their positions as and when it suited purely for personal advancement and political expediency.  Absolutely no principles whatsoever purely career politicians

Another Mp I truly admire -a Brexit supporter and a critic of JC- is Dennis Skinner.  Again a man of decency honesty and principles

In Britain you do actually have some decent honest and principled politicos despite a general feeling that they are all bad
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: saoirse on February 23, 2019, 09:31:29 AM


..
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ian on March 29, 2019, 11:41:01 AM
Best summary and suggestion I have heard on the subject from an informed onlooker - you need to go to 2hrs 37mins of The Today Programme and listen to the interview with Lord King.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0003jvs (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0003jvs)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on March 29, 2019, 13:08:11 PM
This anti Semitic thing is a complete red herring;  the right wing press whipping up anti Corbyn sentiment.  Not much mention of the tory’s Islamophobia in said press.

If being against Netanyahu’s attempted annihilation of the Palestinian people is anti Semitic then I am too.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ian on March 29, 2019, 14:20:42 PM
My most recent post was referring to the interview this morning with the former governor of The Bank of England who stated calmly and coherently that he was of the opinion that there is no evidence of any significant economic downturn if we walk away with no deal.

His preferred option now - is to inform the EU that we intend to walk away and would like to agree a 6 month extension so that final planning and contingencies can be implemented by all parties to make that process as smooth as possible.

This is a man who speaks from a qualified position.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on September 11, 2019, 22:29:08 PM
 Hi, just checking in. How are you getting on with brexit?

Any progress?

Who are leavers blaming, these days?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on September 12, 2019, 06:47:14 AM
As for Corbyn not grabbing opportunities  to be popular,
He changed his mind that many times and Labour they dont know what they want.😤😤😤
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: villain on September 12, 2019, 08:10:41 AM
Ah, I see it's Corbyn's fault.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: davybill on September 12, 2019, 12:24:15 PM
Could be your fault Villain,who knows ?😎😎😎
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LindseyMitchell on September 12, 2019, 14:11:35 PM
There’s been a lot of MP bashing going on.
Those in Remain constituencies are derided for voting against No Deal, and in 21 cases, they’ve effectively been sacked.
Those in Leave constituencies know, because they’ve seen Yellowhammer are torn between wanting to represent their constituents, and acting for the good of the country..
I don’t envy them one bit.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: thebillet on September 13, 2019, 10:45:19 AM
I'm confused; a lot of leave voters said they wanted to bring back control to our parliament. Recently our parliament enacted a law saying the PM should ask for an extension to the departure from the EU. So far so good, however the person responsible has refused to do this, I for one don't follow the logic.

 So, moving to another part of the British Constitution, i.e. the judiciary, they have just said that the prorogation of parliament is unlawful but again the person responsible has refused to reconvene parliament. (Noted that there is an appeal to the Supreme Court but in the meantime the judges ruling remains: it's unlawful)

 Finally another part of the constitution the legislature and Head of State has, according to the courts, been lied to.

So when we gain control over our own destiny will we have any use for laws, parliament or treating the head of state with respect?