Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
General Topics => The Debating Chamber => Topic started by: GordonA on December 06, 2013, 13:50:52 PM
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With all the hype re. the death of Mandela, how many people are actually aware of exactly who he was, his "politics", terrorist activities, and mass illegal killings of his own people, sanctioned and signed off by his own hand. Subject for debate, or does the world once more bury it's collective head in the sands of time ??
http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-nelson-mandela/ (http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-nelson-mandela/) This link taken down. below is link to a copy.
http://share.pdfonline.com/2013/12/6/5295440ab66a49de8f0624e131c1c64a/Nelson%20Mandela.pdf
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Terrorist, murderer, wifebeater and legend. What a man. ;)
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"page not found" for me
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Opened for me KKOB.
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'Page not found' for me to.
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It appears that the BackBencher has taken the article down, there is another in place but not quite so hard hitting.
http://thebackbencher.co.uk/nelson-mandela-devil-saint-just-human/ (http://thebackbencher.co.uk/nelson-mandela-devil-saint-just-human/)
This one is very similar to the first one.
http://henrymakow.com/when_do_terrorists_get_nobel_p.html (http://henrymakow.com/when_do_terrorists_get_nobel_p.html)
I found a copy of the link that would not open, copied to to PDF
http://share.pdfonline.com/2013/12/6/5295440ab66a49de8f0624e131c1c64a/Nelson%20Mandela.pdf (http://share.pdfonline.com/2013/12/6/5295440ab66a49de8f0624e131c1c64a/Nelson%20Mandela.pdf)
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Very interesting reading, and to think the british government once thought Idi Amin was "A very nice man"!!!!
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I seem to remember Colonel Gaddafi was also very well supported by the British and American governments for a number of years.
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Yesterdays terrorist -- tomorrows hero -- its the Human race -- (I didn't enter :) )
There are so many really, Kitchener in South Africa, Lee Kwan Yu, Garibaldi etc etc.
I always say Terrorist or Freedom Fighter just depends whose side you are on!
JT
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I thought Garibaldi was a biscuit? ;)
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Yesterdays terrorist -- tomorrows hero -- its the Human race -- (I didn't enter :) )
There are so many really, Kitchener in South Africa, Lee Kwan Yu, Garibaldi etc etc.
I always say Terrorist or Freedom Fighter just depends whose side you are on!
JT
Osama Bin laden for the peace prize later?
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Illuminati puppet Nelson Mandela?!? Come on, get real.
Yes, the man has used violence but why shouldn't he have. He was fighting for freedom.
I've travelled and worked in many countries but when I worked in S.A. in 1997 I was shocked.
Shocked by the discrimination and racism that was everywhere.
Shocked by the way whites were speaking about black
Shocked by the (former) police dogs that would start barking the moment they saw a black.
Shocked by the believes that blacks were physically inferior to whites.
I've seen Mandela's cell on Robben Island. A cell in which he spent many years in solitary.
GordonA, I don't know you but I assume that you are white.
Do you think you would have posted these links if you had been black?
Would you have called him a terrorist?
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Dutchie, in answer to your questions, ; Do you think you would have posted these links if you had been black?
Would you have called him a terrorist?
The colour of my skin is none of your business, ( you have just revealed yourself to be racist, by asking such a question) but, I am actually, at this moment in time, a rather lovely shade of , shall we say, Caramel, due to my recent sojourn in Las Islas de las Canarias. ( The Islands of Dogs) !! My natural colour is a rather fetching shade of pink, mayhap due to the fact that I am a true, native born Scotsman !! But my answer would be YES !! I WOULD have posted these links, after all, in my world, a terrorist is a terrorist, is a terrorist, regardless of the colour of the skin of the accuser. Ask yourself this, are/were the perpetrators of the atrocities which took place in the U.S.A. on September 2011 terrorists, or heroes?? in their own minds, they were heroes, martyrs, whatever, in the eyes of the rest of the world, they were cowardly, murdering terrorists.
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A great man in his later years, certainly not in his younger years. :(
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Dutchie, in answer to your questions, ; Do you think you would have posted these links if you had been black?
Would you have called him a terrorist?
The colour of my skin is none of your business, ( you have just revealed yourself to be racist, by asking such a question) but, I am actually, at this moment in time, a rather lovely shade of , shall we say, Caramel, due to my recent sojourn in Las Islas de las Canarias. ( The Islands of Dogs) !! My natural colour is a rather fetching shade of pink, mayhap due to the fact that I am a true, native born Scotsman !! But my answer would be YES !! I WOULD have posted these links, after all, in my world, a terrorist is a terrorist, is a terrorist, regardless of the colour of the skin of the accuser. Ask yourself this, are/were the perpetrators of the atrocities which took place in the U.S.A. on September 2011 terrorists, or heroes?? in their own minds, they were heroes, martyrs, whatever, in the eyes of the rest of the world, they were cowardly, murdering terrorists.
You are right in a way by calling me a racist. I've never said that I'm not. I'm convinced that most people are racists, whether they are aware of it or not. Most people are prejudice as well. I'm definitely guilty of that. When I read what you had written and the links that you had placed, I classified you immediately as a white male chauvenist. I don't have any right to do so but it's something that happens unconsciously.
In my opinion the 911 attack is a completely different situation from the apartheid.
The muslim perpetrators (or you might think they were Jewish) had not been suffering for decades in the US.
They had not been beaten for decades, killed, segregated just because of their skin colour.
Black people in S.A. were convined to their own homelands, weren't allowed to travel to the white parts of the country, weren't allowed on white buses, didn't have access to proper education, didn't have access to proper health care, got beaten, killed etc etc.
Mandela started his struggle for freedom in a non violent way but turned to violence when he realised it wasn't making any difference.
Does that make him a terrorist? In my opinion it doesn't. He was fighting for a freedom that everybody should be entitled to.
The 911 attack has nothing to do with that. So yes, I call them terrorists.
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The real Nelson Mandela made this planet a better place for millions of people
and hundreds of millions are mourning his passing. I am one of them.
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Nelson Mandela was a "convicted terrorist". He was convicted by a regime that might best be called "state terrorism". The usual argument against violence in politics is that opponents of the governing powers should choose the democratic route to change the regime. No such route was available to Mandela and his comrades. Was there a non-violent option to gain freedom? There was in 1990 when he was released from prison but I cannot see the possibility of one 27 years earlier when he was imprisoned. His release in 1990 was the product as much of the rising violence in South Africa as it was of international pressure. The fact that a non-violent overthrow of apartheid was achieved was due to Mandela's vision. He gathered his former prison mates to tell them that they would be absolutely justified in being bitterly resentful of those who had imprisoned them and held the whole black population of South Africa in open captivity, and in seeking revenge on these people. However, if they did so, they would create a blood bath in South Africa which would trigger a race war across Africa. He led them instead to a new path and taught the world about "truth and reconcilation" as a possibility after decades of hatred, injustice and atrocities on all sides. It was a truly great achievement.
That is my "real Mandela": I realize that others will have different ones.
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The truth is that the difference between terrorist and freedom fighter is simply whether you agree with what they are fighting for or not.
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GordonA-- A question, both Jesus Christ and Gandhi were called terrorists by the ruling faction of their time and jailed by them as such. Do you therefore place them in the same category as Mr. Mandela? According to you "once a terrorist always a terrorist" or should one think about this and perhaps realise that "terrorist/murderer" depends on whether you are the oppressed or the oppressor.
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A quote from a very good friend of mine. A devoted Fire Officer and before that a member of HM Armed Forces, and from Asian descent.
"What a sad day for all, with the passing of Nelson Mandela, I witnessed apartheid first hand in 1974, when visiting Cape Town with HMs forces, I couldn't go out with the whites, I couldn't go out with the blacks, I was classed as Cape couloured! and I ended up in hospital after a brutal !!! rugby match against SA combined services....(lasted 10minutes and it was racially motivated) I. Witnessed a horrible Regime... And vowed I would not go back, but for one mans fight and devotion....he and others turned my hatred and dislike around ..willing to forgive and accept that with change comes forgiveness ...Mr Mandela you are engraved on my hard drive for life, and may I learn from your example....rest in peace...."
Speaks volumes!!!!
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Oh Dear, that makes twice I agree with you wholeheartedly Colwyn, we must stop this people will talk.
Well the definition depends which side you are on, but the reality in RSA is that it was a cruel and
racist state, and it would never have changed without force from within, and, in the end armed struggle.
It was not new, it began like that under Dutch colonists, very racists and used slavery, after the Boer War the British were much more relaxed but with the Boer's really regaining most of the power it became Government policy in 1948! I am my wife were invited there many times, but, she would have been regarded as "coloured" because her father was half Irish, Half Indian and we could not have stayed in the same Hotel, nor eaten together in many of the Restaurants so we never went. It was wrong, it was vicious, so maybe I can regard Madiba (Nelson was just the name he was forced to use at School), as perhaps justified.
Owamya bin Keepin
Worsley Popular Front
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Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, did they ever say sorry? or do they have to now because there is peace?
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Well the conflict in Ireland I know more about than I am prepared to discuss here, but, how many people in the UK know that when "the Troubles" seriously began (been issues for many years) if you owned a property you got a vote, most Protestant households therefore had a vote, but because of employment discrimination by the Protestant minority most Catholics were employed in manual and menial jobs, could not afford a property and rented, therefore were excluded from the vote? (And yes I can prove it!)
What shall we call such miscarriage of Justice? Ahh, living apart ----- I know --- Apartheid!
Well, I wouldn't compare Mike to Nelson, but you can perhaps understand what caused the problems.
Margaret Thatcher could have solved the issues (which cost us over £100,000 for every person living there), by simply introducing 1 man, 1 vote and moving the rigged boundaries, but that is another story.
Owamya Bin Keepin
Worsley Popular Front
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Mike who ? ???
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Did Nelson Mandela die??? I would never have guessed, unless, of course I watched the news every night for the last week and saw the T.V. crews who are stuck out in S.A. until the funeral trying to find a different angle every night and a different person to interview. Last night was the last straw as they reverently interviewed the horrible Winnie.... I support it may be the guy who cut his hair tomorrow night.
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The BBC, funded by you know who, have sent 140 staff to cover the Mandela funeral.
Sky News, who are covering the same events, are managing with 21 staff.
Do you think someone is taking the p##s.???
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You only have to consider when a major BBC News story happens in your area of the UK. You watch it all on the 6/10 o'clock news then all over again with a local reporter and crew. They must be standing side by side in most cases.
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Back in the seventies BBC 2 did a fishing series, The Fishing Race and The Golden Maggot Award
with teams of celebs/anglers. My brother in law won the competition and award and the series
was about traveling to various locations, Sweden was one of them,catching various specimens
and were allowed to play dirty tricks on the other competitors. Money was no object.My brother
in law had a new motorhome delivered to his house 4 weeks before filming started, as did all the
others. They had helicopters, airplanes, boats, actors for stunts, in fact anything they wanted at
their disposal. He returned home and the motorhome wasn't collected until 6 weeks later.
And everything was paid for by you and I, the license payers. And it's gone on for decades. >:(
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Perhaps we need a new topic about the BBC?
The fact is that very few people probably knew the real Nelson Mandela, so we will probably never know
for certain about him.
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I was shocked to see a report on T.V. yesterday morning from the East Coast of England and all the poor people who have lost so much in the floods, homes and businesses ruined. We both remarked that we could not recall seeing any news of this recently, only the initial flooding was reported last week. I felt so sorry for these people who where miserable and so demoralised. So, while all the T.V. stations have been focused on S.A. for the last week, they have almost totally neglected our home news.
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Well, I wouldn't compare Mike to Nelson
Mike who ?
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Well the magnitude of his send-off, which included 54 heads of state and ceremonies lasting
for a week would suggest the passing of someone far more significant than a "terrorist".
I believe we have just lost a truly great human being. RIP.
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I was shocked to see a report on T.V. yesterday morning from the East Coast of England and all the poor people who have lost so much in the floods, homes and businesses ruined. We both remarked that we could not recall seeing any news of this recently, only the initial flooding was reported last week. I felt so sorry for these people who where miserable and so demoralised. So, while all the T.V. stations have been focused on S.A. for the last week, they have almost totally neglected our home news.
So So true Jacqui, so fed up with it for the last couple of weeks, I even changed my Avatar to remind me and others we lost another great leader in 2013.
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I heard a political commentator being interviewed earlier this week. He was asked to comment on the relationship between Thatcher and Mandela. He said that her former cabinet colleagues were of the opinion that "Maggie lacked empathy with non-white people". That's an intricately delicate way of phrasing it. I think I could manage to say the same thing with a lot fewer words.
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My reply Colwyn was simply to agree with Jacqui on the coverage of Mandela when major things were going on in the UK and elsewhere. I see nothing wrong in commenting on the loss of another great leader, that is my opinion as you and everyone else is entitled to.
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Of course. Did I suggest you weren't entitled to an opinion? Touch of paranoia today?
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Merry Christmas to you and your family Colwyn. ; :)
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I have eschewed the obvious "Bah. Humbug" response so "Seasons Greetings to you and yours!".
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We just switch over now as soon as the Mandela name is mentioned on T.V. It is total over kill reporiing. I will be glad when the funeral is over and we can get back to hearing real news and in particular British news.
I see the Mandela family are now dividing up the spoils and all trying to grab their own pieces of the Mandela brand. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/07/nelson-mandela-family-squabble
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Thank you Jacqui, at least some of us will get back to normal now. :)
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jacqui most large families it's a case of first there gets the spoils :(
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Colwyn when, do you think, will the GB public be allowed an expose of the REAL marg(can't believe she's not butter) Thatcher and when/if it happens will her disciples actually realise or believe the damage she inflicted on this country and it's people >:( :( >:(
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OOOOhh Peter, now there is a question?? Very complex and a whole topic on its own suggest you raise as a new Topic?
Funny really, she was very good at hiding the real person wasn't she? Masqueraded as the saviour, brilliant Politician, have to say wonderful patriot, but also determined to "crush" any form of socialism and put the majority of British people firmly back into wage slavery to support the elite -- best way? Kill the mining, manufacturing and processing Industries!
If you want to die ---- suggest a statue to her in Barnsley, Doncaster or Newcastle upon Tyne! :)
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It is a pity that woman has been dragged into a thread on a great political leader and I regret having responded to it, even though my post was relevant to the subject.
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Yes,I said to my wife that I was disgusted with the constant coverage of his death.If I recall correctly ,he was a terrorist who was responsible for murder.Maybe I'm wrong but it does stick in my mind that he was such a person.
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If you want to die ---- suggest a statue to her in Barnsley, Doncaster or Newcastle upon Tyne! :)
Funny that one, and there`s me a Geordie born and raised in Newcastle on Tyne. ;) :)
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interesting to see Gerry Adams at the funeral..
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And Richard Branston.
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I am sure Gerry Adams had a lot more in common with Mandela that Richard Branson.
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Well Richard Branson worked with Nelson Mandela. Did Gerry Adams?
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And Richard Branston.
No, he's already in a bit of a pickle.
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Well Richard Branson worked with Nelson Mandela. Did Gerry Adams?
I would not doubt it for a minute...
It has been well documented about the connections between the IRA and the ANC. In fact, just google Mandela and the IRA to see Adams, Guinness and Mandela photographed together.
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Has Mandela been buried yet, ive refused to watch any news for the last week as I was sick of it on every channel showing what he had done after his release from prison, nothing shown of course why he was imprisoned. >:(
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Yes Des, it's safe to watch T.V, again. It's now a Mandela free area. ;)
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Thanks Jacqui, We can get back to some normality now. Hope you like the new Avatar, that should please a few people I bet. ;) :)
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It is a pity that woman has been dragged into a thread on a great political leader and I regret having responded to it, even though my post was relevant to the subject.
Look this realllly has to Stop Colwyn, makineg me agree with you, at this rate I will have to offer to buy you a drink :) and that will mean me driving my lawnmower all the way fro Manchester to Bristol and the bloody environmentalists will go beresk! :(
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Well Richard Branson worked with Nelson Mandela. Did Gerry Adams?
I would not doubt it for a minute...
It has been well documented about the connections between the IRA and the ANC. In fact, just google Mandela and the IRA to see Adams, Guinness and Mandela photographed together.
Just google the British Government and Saddam Hussein -- and the Shah of Iran, and others --- omg I think I would rather have some of the IRA I have met! and some definitely not, terrible table manners in a few cases :)
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Two wrongs don't make a right and no one is staying the British Governments did not make mistakes either. As for the IRA and you preference for them, tell that to the relatives of the innocence men women and children who where murdered by them.
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JH
It is a pity you seem to have learned nothing from Mandela's example after he was released from prison. His road was towards truth and reconcilation; not blame and apology. Your statement about relatives and deaths invites the response from "the other side" about the relatives of those who were murdered by the British Army, the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the Loyalist militias. I would say exactly the same about Loz's post that wondered if Adams and McGuinness had said sorry, but not if their equivalents on the "the other side" had made their apologies.
Mandela's greatness lay in his rejection of this language of "the other side". When a civil war grinds, reluctantly, to an end these past enmities will not be forgotten but they must be put aside. Or what would you prefer? Continuing the enmity, decrying those on "the other side", bringing out the guns and bombs again, and continuing the deaths?
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A good reply Colwyn, well said...
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JH
It is a pity you seem to have learned nothing from Mandela's example after he was released from prison. His road was towards truth and reconcilation; not blame and apology. Your statement about relatives and deaths invites the response from "the other side" about the relatives of those who were murdered by the British Army, the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the Loyalist militias. I would say exactly the same about Loz's post that wondered if Adams and McGuinness had said sorry, but not if their equivalents on the "the other side" had made their apologies.
Mandela's greatness lay in his rejection of this language of "the other side". When a civil war grinds, reluctantly, to an end these past enmities will not be forgotten but they must be put aside. Or what would you prefer? Continuing the enmity, decrying those on "the other side", bringing out the guns and bombs again, and continuing the deaths?
HO HO HO Colwyn, What an Absolute load of Tosh,
(http://s24.postimg.org/kctqw5wwx/image.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/kctqw5wwx/)
(http://s15.postimg.org/vlv6dm9br/image.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/vlv6dm9br/)
(http://s29.postimg.org/4hq4iszg3/image.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/4hq4iszg3/)
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Politicians say that violence has no place in the quest for change. Ireland and South Africa clearly show that it does.
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The footpath that connects my house to the local crosses the oldest bridge in Bristol across which the Protestant Parliamentarian "Roundheads" marched to enter Bristol and sack the Catholic Royalist "Cavalier" castle. Even in the Mason's Arms they have stopped arguing about the pros and cons of this, and who murdered who, and who should say sorry, and so on. At least they had yesterday but, up there, you never know. "Off with his royal Scottish head", say I.
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"Off with his royal Scottish head", say I.
Oye! leave my husband alone, he is shy and retiring, well retired ;) :)
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Oooh! I didn't know he was royal. Obviously I think less of him now.
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Well he was born in Airthlrey Castle Bridge of Allan, and that is about as royal as he gets, unless his shouting at the TV like "Jim Royle"counts.