Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
Calis Beach Forum => Expat & Property Owners Q and A Forum => Topic started by: loz on May 02, 2008, 23:41:11 PM
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Making a Will in Turkey, Oh no not that subject I hear you all groan.
We have all been indoctrinated into believing that making a Turkish Will saves so much hassle for the loved ones left behind, you last Will and Testament will be dealt with according to you wishes. How wrong can one be!!
Making a Will, the offices are very happy to take your money, notary fees have a minimum and maximum amount to charge, I bet it is the maximum charged not the lesser.
Ok let us get to the point. We have 3 people who have not made a Will Turkish or otherwise, and 1 that has gone by the book making a Will in Turkey.
1st. This one dies in exceptional circumstances, so his estate is not going to be as straight forward to start with. This case is still ongoing.
The gentleman died in 2005, but the family could not do anything until the police and prosecutor allowed the house to be open.
The family started proceedings in 2006.
After much to'ing and fro'ing the Turkish agreed to sign the house over to the son and daughter, however, the UK legal system steps in, he died intestate, therefore, the property has now to be handed over to become part of his estate, then the "heirs" can make their claims on the estate.
2008 still ongoing, Turkish part is finalised.
2nd, The spouse dies in the UK, no Will, however, they do have a joint bank account, this is frozen, and still frozen, after a year.
3rd, Spouse dies in Turkey, no Will, surviving spouse goes to a lawyer situated near to the courts and hospital, this lawyer is on the ball, only half the bank account is frozen.
75% of the Tapu will go into surviving spouses name and 25% to the 2 children, the hold up on completion of the Tapu is having the Death certificate Apostilled by a UK Lawyer and stamped by Foreign common wealth office. However, the spouse is in no hurry and says this can wait.
The cost is 3,000TL plus VAT. Tax and legal letters.
4th. The Will is made in Turkey in 2006 by a firm ETL (work it out yourselves). Both parties blissfully happy that their house is in order.
Wrong!!
This is a personal one so I will give what is required when actioning a will, so be warned.
(apostilles are required for all certificates, heirs, inheritors spouses, the lot)
This case the Will states quite clearly everything is to go to the surviving spouse.
Make an appointment and present the Will to the lawyer, in this case the firm ETL, they also made the Will and did not recognise it. After 3 hours of listening and watching them flaff around, causing even more distress) they requested originals death certificates of the deceased Mother and Father!!; (the deceased in this case was in the 70th year). then requested original birth certificates of any bloody relatives still living, brother, sister children etc.
Yes the originals of birth certificates, now you are all thinking bloody hell, what happens if you have family you do not get on with, or are money grabbers, ask them for their birth certificates and they are going to think, "ah, there is something in this for me" of course they will.
The next step is to pay a lawyer in the UK, swear an affidavit to confirm that the certificates are authentic, and then they have to have an Apostille attached with the stamp of the Foreign office. You can at this stage (honest lawyer) swear an affidavit declaring no other heirs.
Now remember the cost for the 3rd person, the cost quoted by the firm we were using (above) 4,500TL plus 100GBP plus notary plus VAT plus the UK lawyer.
After 3 hours of being shouted at not spoken to, and then this woman and lawyer wanting to explain to us what happens if you don't make a Will, I ended up having to shout over this woman saying we have a Will, why tell us something that is nothing to do with us.
We were requested to go to the notary NOW as the lawyer would like a cigarette!
Whilst we were waiting in the Notary office I made a few phone calls, the conflicting info I was hearing started bells ringing, the notary document was not signed, just did not feel comfortable.
We have since found a lovely quite caring person, she has explained all to me after she had a meeting with the Judge.
So Far, we have the option of traveling to Izmir and presenting ourselves to the Embassy to declare in person that there are no heirs, however, as the Death Certificate still needs to have apostile documents it is not worth this extra hassle.
This new lawyer and his sworn translator is so much more Gentle and understanding in their approach, understanding that this procedure is new to foreigners as well as the Turkish procedure.
So ETL, you will never shout at me again or slam the phone down when we declined to go with your company. They insisted in telling us that they do this work all the time, yet could not fully explain the procedure or the cost?
Your professional attitude stinks!
"Apostille is also a French word which means a certification. It is commonly used in English to refer to the legalisation of a document for international use under the terms of the 1961 Hague Convention Abolishing the Requirement for Legalisation for Foreign Public Documents. Documents which have been notarised by a notary public, and certain other documents, and then certified with a conformant apostille are accepted for legal use in all the nations that have signed the Hague Convention.
In countries which are not signatories to the 1961 convention and do not recognize the apostille, a foreign public document must be legalised by a consular officer of the country from which the document is issued."
When we are back in the UK it would be an idea to have both our birth certificates sworn and have the apostille attached, I do not see a time limit on this action as it is only declaring the documents are correct.
The main concern is this, I am in NO WAY sharing ANYTHING with the family, this feeling is mutual. Now what is the answer to this one? sell up, hide the money, and rent?
[?]
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Thank Loz, very useful info 8)
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5th May 2008, let the count down begin and see how long this takes.
The lawyer and sworn translator used has gone to much trouble to enquire via the judge, consulate and embassies exactly what is needed, suffice to say much less than the original lawyer was requesting.
THEIR LOSS!!!
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Im Lost!
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It's not an easy subject to just pick up and understand Suzanne; in essence loz is informing us that with the wrong legal advice, writing a will will give you all the comfort you hoped for, until the sad situation arrives (the one you needed a will in the first place). Then the will *can* be as useful as no will at all.
"Round 2" of Loz's story takes up the story with a new lawyer who sounds more on the ball, and a promise to keep us updated on how long this unfortunate situation will take to conclude.
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Sorry "Scunny Bun" (just making you more user friendly: :) ;)
The post does appear a little disjointed, mainly because i am still spitting bullets regarding the actioning of the Will and the first lawyer used (chocolate teapot).
I am going now before i blow again, but when resolved I will post again.
i am off now to meditate, and find my calm and inner peace atPalms!:D
ok friends/
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Loz,
So sorry to hear about your predicament. Am I right in assuming that the law firm has been recommended on here? If so how many more people are blissfully unaware of a problem? :o What should they do about it?
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Would it not be possible to just give power of atourney to one of your beneficiaries before you have popped your clogs? Like soon.
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You'd have to keep the death pretty quiet [:o]
Truth is, if you are able to sign a Power of Attorney you would be able to transfer your share anyway.
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loz, lorraine, i was going to keep quite on this one as i though you were lashing out in your grief, However as it turns out you were acting as an agent for the berieved person.
so please take note of the following about you posted article which was garbled, scaremongering, offensive and full of legal inacuracies. not to mention the personal slurrs you made about the lawyer and translators porfessional ability at etl.
i understand after 3 hours of UNPAID for help and advice from the lawyer (who is a non smoker! and wouldnt have popped out for a cigerette as you say) and translator, which included them making you coffee, consulting the brit consulate. visits to the notary etc, you started getting very angry about the costs you were advised the notary would be charging.
you would do well to remember that you are a guest in this country and accusing the notary in a public media place of what ammounts to corruption is very unwise, the notary is a high covernment office position and the prices are set by the high courts in ankara.
your personal slants on th etl lawyer as well have not gone unnoticed and if you continue along this line you may well push them into defending themselves and be asked to justify your accusations in court
from your apparent inability to handle legal situations you wouldnt want that trouble believe me.
from things i have found out since about you i suspect you have an ulterior motive for these action and smears.
that is all i am saying here about the personal side of this thread as any future referance will be handled by the lawyer in a different media.
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Stuart
Not really for me to reply to your points, but to say Loz is "acting as an agent" for the bereaved is wildly inaccurate, she is the FRIEND of the bereaved. Some difference in law I think you will find.
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( 3 hours of UNPAID for help and advice from the lawyer) what help and what advice, all totally inaccurate, and unhelpful.
the 'FRIEND' is from my home town, more of a mother figure than my own.
Angry? yes especially learning now the price quoted is 2000YTL more than my friend has now paid. The garbled shouted advice.....our heads were spinning, I did not break down in the office, I was being strong for my friend, I cried in private, and it does take much to shake me, but that is none of yours or anybody elses business.
Quote:
Me.
"Why when people are making a will do you not attach a notice stating that on the death of ??? certificates etc, need an Apostille"
Shouted Quote:
"This is Turkey, you should know this"
EH??????????????
Get real!
Ask yourself, if you were not happy or feeling comfortable, would you sign a contractual paper?
There are many legal representative on this forum and others alike that have been discussed,debated or advised to steer clear of.
The gentleman who died, helped us in the Uk when renovating our home, sat through hours of family chat problems, listened, so don't you DARE question my grief over a VERY VERY dear friend.
This was obviously another fact that was not taken on board or listened to.
The one positive that has come of this GRIEF is ensuring others who will eventually need the services to action a Will and Testament know what hoops they have to jump through, and no gaurantee at the end that their wishes will be met.
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Hi Lorraine
We know nothing nothing about this at all but as a couple who you have helped considerably in the past,we wish you all the best with it.
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This problem is really worrying, as a 58 year old putting my affairs in order here in England leaving every thing to my boys where do i start with my place in Turkey, how can I make sure that the apartment is passed to them.
Does anyone recommend a reliable solicitor, can it not be done here in England
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I dont know what happened but i know very well that Lorraine is only a good friend of that couple .
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So, if my child owns a property and I am named as a parent on the tapu and the unthinkable happens and I am the sole beneficiary of his/her wills both British and Turkish, will their wishes be carried out.[?]
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..short answer tonysue
not if they have a sibling or offspring,
and only after a lot of hassle!
maybe we should form a consortium that owns the properties and rent them back at nominal rent, with shares that can be transferred.
Shares are not immoveable and therefore not subject to Turkish inheritance law.
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I for one am watching this with great interest & sincerely hoping that all turns out well.
It seems a total traversty of justice that in spite of the deceased making a Turkish will to safeguard the rights of spouse, the person that is left behind is now having to jump through hoops as well as try to come to terms with the death of a loved one.
None of us want our nearest & dearest to go through this hassle at a time when they are extremely vulnerable & it's quite frightening that even though this couple did all they possibly could to avoid any problems the wife is left struggling & grieving at the same time.
Loz - I wish you & your friend a speedy favourable outcome & please keep us all informed.
Hubblebubble - interesting idea OR maybe buy as a company not an individual?
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I am very interested in this information regarding wills. But I am still puzzeled. Is there a conclusion yet on what the best course of action if one of the partners die. Also is there anything we can or should be doing now to make the process easier if the dreaded inevitable happens , one of us dies. As some members have already pointed out we dont want hasstle an stress at the death of a partner. Can things be made straight forward now? We had a will made almost 2 years ago by Stuarts wife and we just put it away in a safe place.
Thank you
Heather
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I have been reading this subject for weeks now, talking with lawyers, notaries, and also a Turkish lawyer on a Canadian forum.
Difinitive answer? NO
Some return stating that there is no problem, just the sworn affadavits and Apostile, this appears to be the only consistancy, so far. along with lawyers fees, court fees and notary fees.
The Turkish Economy org website then goes and throws a spanner in the works, by stating that the UK/ or country of origin the Will stands, yet reading this and having it explained, the affadavits from the UK, a letter from the UK courts confirming the contents, and apostile certificates will still need to be attained and actioned in the UK prior to the heirs coming to Turkey to action the Will.
The opening of the court case to release papers to the heir is the same procedure, what the Turkish Economy .org site have ommited is that this will need the services of a Turkish Lawyer, cost incurred by the Lawyer, the Notary and the court costs.
http://www.turkisheconomy.org.uk/buyingproperty/property_taxes.htm Parts 7.3 and 7.4
Is there a true answer to this? I doubt it, yet there are a few points that are consistant when seeking answers.
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What an awful problem Loz :( Thank goodness your friend has your support & help. Grieving for someone close is such a difficult time, hard to deal with all the paperwork even if it is fairly straight forward, as in the UK.
I hope you'll soon reach a successful conclusion,take good care x
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I don't know how true it is, but we were told that when we bought our place 5yrs ago, to put both mine and my wifes name on the Tapu, meaning that if anything happened to either one of us, the other inherits automatically. the in some was to happen to the pair of us, the property is split 50/50 with both out daughters.
As I said earlier, i'm not sure how true this is? As with most things to do with law, take nothing for granted until a test case has gone through the courts.
Pete
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Pete, you need to read the beginning of this thread and the "Will and possessions" thread to see that the Will in question nothing to to with the Tapu, the Tapu comes later when the Will has been opened and all other hoops in the UK then Turkey court system has been completed (In this case the Tapu is also in joint names, and not this is not automatically transferred into the surviving partners name).
Another case of the lawyers not fully conversant with the procedure, yet with each property owner "popping their cloggs" they are will be learning pretty damn quick!
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Update:
Second stage of the will procedure, court case is now in September (as long as the Certificates are in order)
Not quite as clear cut as they will have you believe.:(
Loz
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Would it not be easier to transfer the Tapu into the heirs names and have a rental agreement with them for both of our lifetimes?
Very confusing as we made out a will here in Turkey with Stuarts wife, Dileks sister 18 months ago and none of this was stated. She made it sound like a simole process once a will was lodged in Turkey.
Hope it can be sorted and explanations given as there must be lots of us worrying about our wishes being carried out.
Fiona
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Fi, the Tapu can not be touched until the 2nd court case has been heard, agreed and actioned.
The chap (a friend of ours) who did not make a Will and only has 2 sons has been sorted quicker than this "comic saga", and cost 1500Ytl less, not counting the lawyers fees in Uk doing the sworn apostile etc.
Loz
(yes still spitting bullets over this)
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Has anyone had dealings regarding Wills in Turkey? All I hear from most lawyers is "We deal with this all the time" then why can they not answer a simple question?
I have just had a very upset friend on the phone, the Certificates have now been a stamped, she also had to foot the bill for cost of them being sent to Brussels, !!
She can not get a sworn affidavit as it would then involve family members , even though the husband stipulated that all was to go to the wife, now the court case that is due to go ahead in September (nearly 1 year to the anniversary of our friends death)
Yes our friend did have a Turkish Will, her solicitor queried why a notarised copy was not also signed and witnessed? Is yours?
If anyone has been through this, or know of someone please feel free to email me if they do not want to go through the forum.
gordonDOTlorraineATgmailDOTcom
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Why Brussels Loz?
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because the Certificates, birth marriage and Death certs of all concerned need to be apostilled with the Common Wealth stamp, as this is the procedure which is legally acceptable and expected in Turkey.
She is now looking at a very long term wait.
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I've been meaning to sort out a will in Turkey, but never got round to it. Now i'm not to sure whether i should bother at all :(
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quote:
Originally posted by Firo
Would it not be easier to transfer the Tapu into the heirs names and have a rental agreement with them for both of our lifetimes?
Fiona
We have also wondered this - BUT what if they live in the US & have never even been to Turkey? How would you fare paying all the bills etc - presumably the same as renting a property?
Maybe someone can advise if it's possible to do this without the person coming to Turkey as no-one wants their loved one to have this added pressure at a time when they are least able to cope with it. ALSO you need to trust the person/s implicitly in whose name the Tapus would be - Be CAREFUL here, as I found to my cost, even those who are nearest & dearest to you, or should be, cannot be trusted. I KNOW who I have NO intention of leaving a brass farthing to. I NEED to ensure if I pop my clogs this person will NOT get anything.
What will happen if/when they join the EU - might this be likely to simplify matters??
Loz I really hope everything turns out OK & the way your friend thought he'd ensured for his loved one.
This one is a nightmare & something we ALL need to sort - none of us are getting any younger! We all have the last certainty ahead of us.
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If the Tapu is already in the heirs names(ie: my sons) and we are just "renting" then why does it have to go to court?
Why Brussels as the Commonwealth is in the UK and not in Brussels thats the EU?
Fi
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The Brussels is still confusing me, why not deal with the office in Milton Keynes, no doubt it will become clear over time.
http://www.apostille-mk.co.uk/html/faq_legalisation_apostille.html
You can read about Apostilles on the above link,
I can see the cost and how the making of a Turkish Will has escalated, the fees just for the Apostille for 2 people are now over £100 plus they no doubt will then ask for the heirs certificates to be apostilled, what a bloody farce,
Apparently the Turkish Wills are based loosely on many other European and USA inheritance laws, of course many of these countries have an ID registration system UK and Ireland does not.
When a Turkish person dies a member of the family goes to the local offices and shows their ID, this confirms all family member living or deceased. In the UK and Ireland there is no such admin, only Brith Deaths and Marriages at Somerset House, if a person dies in another country apparently unless the relatives inform the admin of UK or Ireland then it is not registered. how many 200year olds are still walking the streets?
My idea and this is highlyt illegal, I make a POA my husband makes POA each allowing the other to deal with buying selling in the others absence, speacial POA's for each regarding banks and properties.
Time limit, is POA endless? POA has to be rescinded doesn't it?
Will you tell them I am dead and the bank money and property proceeds has chased the spouse to the UK?
sorry fiorgot tio put the link in the post:
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i got a turkish will 2 years ago it cost me 330tyl plus 40ytl for the notery.as everything is in my name no need for my wife to have one.incase we die at the same time everything will go to both our daughters as in equal shares through inheritance.on the last line it says i do not want this testament of mine,to be sent to any official registration offices or alike in the uk.the lawyer i used was the one on the top flat above citlembik most of the people i speak to have used the same one but cant tell you if anyone has had to exercise a will.best of luck loz
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Jinky
This has all came about due to someone unfortunately having to excersise their Turkish will!
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We are now trying another avenue, the Turkisheconomy.org site has info but totally differing info to the lawyers here in Turkey, much of the info on that site is incorrect when trying to action anything in Turkey, I use it for a guide only.
Let us see what this one is going to throw up this time.
Jinky email sent to you.
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Update:
We have tried to find the way around this situation regarding and using a UK Will, the UK Will is accepted in Turkey, however, you will still need to have Apostilled certificates, there is no way around this, and then you will need to have a sworn Oath of Allegiance confirming the Will and then the Will needs to be sent to the Turkish Consulate to be ratified.
Although the Will has been made and the court case is soon (the first case), letters from the court and consulate need to go to all blood relatives of the deceased informing them that a Will is to be opened and do they have an objection, they will not be informed of the contents at this stage.
Now, this still needs to be clarified, once the letters have gone out and no objections are raised for the opening of the Will (why should they object at this stage?) the Will is read leaving all property to the (named person(s)) is this the end of the matter?
The original Will is currently a subject with our friends local Euro MP, he is disgusted that the procedure was not discussed and explained when the Will was made originally with the Fethiye Lawyers, this would have gone some way to eleviating our friends distress, she could have prepared for it.
Speaking with my friends Lawyer and his Sworn Translator Oksan (she has a column in the Land of Lights) she has worked hard on learning the system and why it is so difficult for the Brits to understand and action; The Will system in Turkey is extremely different to what we have been used to, anyone who now uses this service with their company will have it explained, exactly what is involved, what they need to do once the Turkish Will has been drawn up; for example, visiting the UK solicitor and have certificates Apostilled in readiness, this would leave just the Death certificate to deal with, then the Sworn Oath of Allegiance (Affadavit?) confirming the Last Testament and Wishes, Sent to the Consulate for ratification, all this can then be attched to the Turkish Will and put away until needed.
Please, if anyone has been through this what was you experience? you can email via forum or My Personal Email click Here (http://"mailto:gordon.lorraine@gmail.com?Subject=Turkish%20Wills%20and%20Testaments&Body=We%20are%20trying%20to%20fully%20understand%20the%20Tukish%20Will%20system.%20not%20everyone%20would%20like%20to%20answer%20via%20a%20forum%2C%20please%20share%20your%20experience%20it%20will%20help%20many%20people%20at%20a%20time%20of%20grief.%20")
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So, who is Stuart and what is it to do with him anyway?
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quote:
Originally posted by cef
Thank Loz, very useful info 8)
Extremely useful as Ive been considering making Turkish will for some time. Makes you think. If housing market wasnt in slump would seriously consider selling. J M B 8) 8)
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Hi Loz,Good work,I have a couple of questions.On your last post re the english will reference,do you mean the turkish consulate in the UK.Plus, are you suggesting that after making english will with the apostille and alegience etc, you then should make a turkish will as well and lodge with turkish solicitor. On the second and third paras,if one had no address or means of contacting individuals a lack of reply to any such letters would sufficeor would the whole process stall until a reply was provided?
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Could someone, anyone write a list of actions required to inherit will as deemed starting with 1) make a will in Turkey
and ending with poblem solved! Doen't matter how many steps in between - just the procedure if there is any, be it good or bad. All the mails I have rad relating to this seem to be somewhat vague!
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Has anybody looked at the turkiish embassey web site? Just an idea!!
Good idea evie we should all research this and compile a list of actions
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The website you refer to does not cover all points, I have listed the relevant actions needed so far.
Update on this case:
26th November 2008, all the Apostilled documents went to the court and the Will was opened, now the Apostilled certificates are sent to the embassy via the judge and the judge will write to all legal inheritors asking if they have any objections as to the NAMED inheritor (the wife) staking claim to the entire estate. Also they (embassy) will check records in the UK ensuring no other heirs who were not listed.
How long will this take?
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I can understand that if a will is disputed it could be put before a judge/court in Turkey but does any English person have experience or knowledge of an undisputed or simple Will being prooved without all the legal challenges mentioned above.
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This is an Turkish Will, the husband leaving everything to the wife and vice versa, however, to ensure the wife inherits to the husband wishes this is the procedure, even though the Will clearly states the Wife to inherit on a property that is in joint names.
For the named beneficary to inherit as per the last will and testament, the previous stated hoops have to be jumped through.
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Now, I realize I am coming to this particular topic thread 9 months after the last post but I have been following the new thread about 'wills simplified' topic.
It has just occurred to me that for my own situation. Married couple, 2 heirs - adult children- it would just be as easy to state in Turkish will that all surviving heirs would inherit the Turkish property. Am I right in thinking that then there would only be a need to ratify each of their and our birth certificates, our marriage certificate and keep with the Turkish will until such time as the death certificate needed ratified etc.
Can some hot shot, well versed, international English speaking Turkish Lawyer just not write the definitive guide on the matter and put us all out of our misery on the subject! It does seem very complicated compared to the UK structure that we are used to.
I am eventually going to collate the info I can and write it up and keep in safe place with my UK will at least so that those left behind at least have an idea of where to start with the process. (That is plan B). Plan A is to pray for time and good market conditions to sell the Turkish property before the day arrives for the need to prove the will!
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Ok, I understand that we need a will even though our property is in joint names. Has anyone used a solicitor in Fethiye who speaks English and specialises in wills? If so, please can i have thier email or phone number so that we can make an appointment prior to our visit? thanks :)
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I have used Baris.Better english than me.You will find his details on the Land of Lights website I think.
http://www.landoflights.net/
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Just bringing this back to the forum again because of a posting in the following subject
{A Link to an old CBF topic was here - no longer available}39655
Our friend still has not had this case resolved, it is terribly upsetting for her as you can imagine, her husband was such a good friend of ours in the UK years prior to us moving to Turkey in 2003 and we feel just as cut up regarding this saga.
Latest news is that the Tapu manager and Judge do not agree with certain aspect, a case of one trying to outdo and look better than the other I feel.
I have since learnt that a Turkish Will is not necessary as long as the UK Will is valid and covers the Turkish property.
I lost so much information when the computer crashed, I will have to search the old hard drive to get the company and law firm used in the UK who are fully conversant regarding reciprocity between UK and Turkey including Tax Laws.
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Loz when you find the lawyers details please let us know.