Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
Turkey Related Subjects => Turkey Discussion Forum (Not Calis specifically) => Topic started by: JohnF on April 26, 2016, 10:43:43 AM
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The elephant in the room finally blew through its trunk yesterday - the parliamentary speaker, Ismail Kahraman was speaking at a conference relating to the new constitution and said:
“As a Muslim country, why should we be in a situation where we are retreating from religion? We are a Muslim country. So we must have a religious constitution”
He went on to say:
“A description of secularism shouldn’t be in the new constitution. France, Ireland and Turkey have constitutions that include a description of secularism. But everyone interprets it the way they want to. That shouldn’t be the case.”
Scary stuff.
Bit of an outcry from non AKP deputies, and later in the day the prime ministers office made a "say a lot but say nothing" statement - the prime minister is, apparantly, going to evaluate whether secularism should feature in the constitution.
Kahraman isnt a free thinker, he's not some Skinneresque rebel, in fact he's little reginalds man through and through. He served under Erbakan (who the army seen off) in the nineties and was trotted out at the last (Nov 15) election in Istanbul with the view of him becoming speaker.
So why did he say it? I wonder if this was an exercise in testing the waters for the potential removal of secularism from the constitution, which ultimately would make The Republic of Turkey an officially muslim country. Like Pakistan, like Iran, Like Saudi Arabia - need I go on?
Hate to be repetitive, but interesting times ahead...
JF
Edit: sorry, forgot link to the ONLY English speaking publication covering this story - HDN (http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/secularism-shouldnt-be-in-turkeys-new-constitution-parliament-speaker.aspx?pageID=238&nID=98341&NewsCatID=338)
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Seriously considering going after seeing that yesterday.
Keep hoping the Turkish people would do something by now but with the way things are with freedom of speech etc thats increasingly unlikely :(
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Another nail in the coffin
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Nothing surprising. I'll try to post a link to an interesting video from a couple of months ago where they discuss the new constitution.
People have protested in Ankara against the "non secular" statement and many arrests have been made this morning.
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People have protested in Ankara against the "non secular" statement and many arrests have been made this morning.
The youth of this country in Istanbul and Ankara (and many other cities) have paid a heavy price over the past few years for daring to show their displeasure about the direction Turkey has been heading. I hope that 1st May doesn't add to the list of casualties.
I watched Winter on Fire recently and it showed how the determination of the people managed to overthrow a corrupt and totalitarian government, and it all started with the young. Well worth a watch - I learned a lot that went unreported in the western media at the time.
Here's the trailer, its a Netflix production and also available to watch for free if you Google it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RibAQHeDia8
Probably said enough here to get the jail :)
JF
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1st of May is bound to cause chaos :(
Here's a link to an interview where two hoca's claim that they and 50 other imams have prepared the new constitution based on the kuran and that they have handed it over to the constitution committee to be approved.
It's in Turkish and the interesting bit starts around 4.15 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92rzablfDtM
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My Turkish teacher, a very learned man who used to live in Istanbul, way back in 2008 told me this would happen and was all being financed by America.
So much of what he told me would happen has already happened.
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I've heard these predictions many times in the past as well and I always refused to believe them.
Mainly because I didn't want to believe them.
1,5 years ago we considered leaving Turkey but decided to stay but after the recent bombings in Ankara and Istanbul in combination with other events, I've lost all faith in the future for Turkey and we've put our house on the market. Hopefully it will sell and we'll be able to buy a property in Holland so our 6 year old can start first grade there. I want her to grow up in freedom without brain washing in school and the media.
P.S. Not sure about the "American master plan bit" though.
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P.S. Not sure about the "American master plan bit" though.
Pennsylvania ;)
JF
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Gulen?
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I assume he didn't mean Pennsylvania-soon-to-be-Canada because they were best buddies in 2008.
Probably an american/israeli/zionist plot that the Turks are rather keen on.
Whatever happens in Turkey...blame it on the zionists.
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I had interpreted KK's Turkish teacher's remarks as implying that the AKP plan to infiltrate all areas of the state and then stage an Islamist coup without effective, establishment opposition was being masterminded and funded by Gulen.
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"The existing system is still in power. Our friends who have positions in legislative and administrative bodies should learn its details and be vigilant all the time so that they can transform it and be more fruitful on behalf of Islam in order to carry out a nationwide restoration. However, they should wait until the conditions become more favorable. In other words, they should not come out too early."
{attributed to Fethullah Gulen, 1999, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fethullah_G%C3%BClen} (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fethullah_G%C3%BClen})
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I had interpreted KK's Turkish teacher's remarks as implying that the AKP plan to infiltrate all areas of the state and then stage an Islamist coup without effective, establishment opposition was being masterminded and funded by Gulen.
I understand (sorry but I'm obviously a bit slow today).
Good point you're making, could very well be what he meant.
Do you know who and what your teacher meant Kayakebab?
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He said they're behind all problems in the world..
He said that wealth ( from u.s ) would increase in Turkey, nicer homes, new cars etc. Money would come from America basically paying the govt to be more Islamic so that they can later declare them fanatical and have an excuse to declare war on them and get a more strategic position in the Middle East.
Sounds far fetched and i told him so at that time.
Given the number of new cars and covered women now in Fethiye I'm starting to think maybe he had a point !
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So I was quite wrong then and Dutchie was right in the first place - just another crazy conspiracy theory.
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America has and had a plan for everyone in the middle east. Why don't they take control of their own country and keep their noses out of everyone else's country. I think your teacher is right Kayakebab.
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Theyre back tracking now and saying the no secularism was the speakers own opinion...
Protests overnight, usual tear gas... :(
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Theyre back tracking now and saying the no secularism was the speakers own opinion...
The backtracking started yesterday, shortly after they realised the sh1tstorm the remarks had created. Also partly in response to the fact that most western media picked up on the significance of the speech and reported it pretty widely. Not good for a government that is trying to screw funds out of the EU, a body comprised wholly of secular countries.
Everyone loves a good conspiracy theory, and many of my Turkish friends seem to revel in them - especially when it comes to the US. In my opinion, if the US wanted a "stronghold" close to the middle east, there are far better candidates than Turkey.
If you want to know a bit more about Gulen, and his links with Erdogan, this article makes a good stab at it: Everything you've ever wanted to know about Fethullah Gulen, Turkey's most controversial cleric (http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/04/turkey-fethullah-gulen-cleric-opposition-erdogan-akp.html)
JF
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Interesting reading John.
I confess to not taking too much notice of Turkish politics until very recently, not fully understanding it all most of the times. The situation now though has me trying to grasp a better understanding of it and that article opened another world to me.
Like many others with a holiday home there I was quite content to enjoy it and let the world go by. Unfortunately I fear we will not have that luxury for too much longer
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An interesting piece. Erdoğan in 1999 when he was mayor of Istanbul.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZpPRldR32w
Subtitles are available.
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Some time ago, perhaps 8 or 9 years, I listened to a BBC Radio 4 programme that set itself the target of determining whether Gulen was: on the one hand, a moderate Islamic cleric who sponsored a non-fundamentalist, open movement that was inclusive of other religions; or, on the other hand, a dangerous wolf in sheep's clothing who was lulling people into a sense of false security before springing a trap and capturing Turkey. They interviewed pro- and anti- spokespeople, educationalists, academics, journalists and politicians in Turkey and the USA. At the end of the hour the programme came to its conclusion. Qustion. Moderate and open, or secretive and dangerous? Answer. We can't really tell!
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Answer. We can't really tell!
I think thats the problem - no-one, outside the Gulen organisation, really knows what his motives are. Saying that, we can make an educated guess given his close alliance with Erdogan over the years!
Until Erdogan and his cronies were outed as being corrupt money grabbing little men, they were as thick as thieves. Since then its been all out war between "the state" and the so called "parallel state" with, in many commentators eyes, "the state" being ahead on points as we stand.
The systematic purging of the judiciary, the Polis and the media has allowed Erdogan to pretty much do as he likes, without interference from anyone. Hence his anger when the supreme court went against his wishes and released the Hurriyet two. Incidentally, the owners of the Hurriyet, Dogan Media Group have been under attack from the government for the past few years - tax fines, trumped up charges of aiding terrorists etc. To quote one publication (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/turkey-targets-dogan-media-group-1.2353648) "Erdogan reviles Dogan Media". Why? They're the last of the major media groups not under government control.
All his tactics have done is driven the supporters of Gulen under the radar - I suspect there is still a lot of support for him, it just cant be shown at present. I could be wrong, but my gut feeling is that he is a far more powerful individual (within Turkey) than a lot of folks think. Ironically, the biggest threat to the Gulenists isn't Erdogan but Gulen state of health. Without him as a figurehead I'm not sure how they will progress their cause.
Gulen comes across as a moderate - he has to else he'd be out on his ear from the US. But that then beggars the question, what exactly is a moderate (within Islam) when we're discussing the Turkey of today?
Not sure I know the answer to that one.
JF