Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
General Topics => The Debating Chamber => Topic started by: Scunner on August 27, 2015, 22:09:29 PM
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There is no sin too great for God to forgive: Titus 2:14
I was thinking a lot about religion and this God idea this week, mainly provoked by a funeral that was Humanist and religion free.
And I ended up with the following thought at the end of it.
If God is a forgiving God, how come when it gets to the bit where he/someone decides who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell, and they decide Hell, why isn't he all like "I just can't do it, I can't send him/her to Hell, for I am the forgiving God.
"Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand".
and
"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,"
Both can't be right can they...
Bit heavy I realise :)
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Final proof God is a woman......Can't make her mind up. Off to bed now :-X :o ;D ;)
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Spare bedroom possibly?
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There is no sin too great for God to forgive: Titus 2:14
I was thinking a lot about religion and etc etc
it always concerns me when you do that - however, in this case all I'll say is send me over either a pint of what you're drinking or a coupla joints of what you're smokin' :)
JF
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I often wrestle with the question "why should I forgive God for allowing terrible things to happen (one thing in particularly obviously).
The stock answer to "why does a forgiving God allow terrible things to happen" appears to be "it's man's inhumanity to man".
Does not compute, I'm afraid. :(
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Another reason why I don't believe in God, Heaven, Hell, the Afterlife etc.
I remember sitting with my Grandma when I was about 12 and the news of the Aberfan Disaster was breaking. She was a very religious woman and used to attend chapel 3 times on a Sunday. When she heard the news she said "If there is a God and he loves little children he would never have allowed this to happen". She never stepped inside a chapel or church again in 36 years.
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Ok, so what is (a) god?
Sensible answers only please, on the back of a communion wafer...
JF
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As the great philosopher Stephen Fry asked, what about bone cancer in children - how is that man's inhumanity to man?
If I decide my children need punishing for something, I can take their phones off them for 24 hours or pour a chip pan of boiling oil over them. I always choose the phone. So without doing a huge poll, I am more forgiving than God and I've only polled one person. It isn't looking good for him being the most forgiving.
The question remains - how can the all forgiving, compassionate God allow people to go to an eternity of suffering? Doesn't sound like the actions of an ultra forgiving being to me.
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Ok, so what is (a) god?
Sensible answers only please, on the back of a communion wafer...
JF
Someone invented to keep the poor weak and living in fear?
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Another reason why I don't believe in God, Heaven, Hell, the Afterlife etc.
I remember sitting with my Grandma when I was about 12 and the news of the Aberfan Disaster was breaking. She was a very religious woman and used to attend chapel 3 times on a Sunday. When she heard the news she said "If there is a God and he loves little children he would never have allowed this to happen". She never stepped inside a chapel or church again in 36 years.
A classic example as would Dunblane be.
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How weird is this
Gul at Hotel Letoon posted today on the other place
"GOD HAS A PLAN - I alone know the plans I have for you"
Jeremiah 29:11
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Ok, so what is (a) god?
Sensible answers only please, on the back of a communion wafer...
JF
Someone invented to keep the poor weak and living in fear?
A wee bit like Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Salazar or Franco then?
JF
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Gul at Hotel Letoon posted today on the other place
"GOD HAS A PLAN - I alone know the plans I have for you"
How does Gul know what God's plan for us is
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A wee bit like Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Salazar or Franco then?
JF
I don't think any of those people were invented John :D
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Pedant.
JF
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He might have been
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I didn't mention Jimmy Saville.
JF
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I'll leave with the immortal....
"Good night and may your God go with you"
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First Day at Religious School.
First question they ask, what do you know about God? I didn't know anything about God, Who? "God!" Who's God? "God, you do not know who God is? Sister! Sister! We have an Atheist here!" "Let me tell you little boy, God is, God was, and God always shall be..." What? "What he is!" What was that? "He is the father! He is the sun! He is the holy ghost! He is 3 in 1". "Do you understand?" I'm four years of age, why wouldn't I? Greatest Theological question in the world, three people in one... Where is he? "He is here!" Where? I can't see him. "That doesn't mean because you can't see him he's not here". It doesn't? He's in the cupboard? "He's not in the cupboard! God doesn't go into cupboards!" He's under the stairs? "He's not under the stairs! He is here, with us now. He's upstairs he's downstairs he's outside he's inside he's everywhere." He's a big bloke, why can't I see him? And I'm asked "Do you love him?" I don't know, I've never seen him. "God loves you and he wants your love, but if you do not give him your love he will cast you into ever lasting flame". What? "He will cast you into ever lasting flame, have you ever burnt yourself? Yes I burnt myself on a Candle. "What was it like?" It was sore. "Can you imagine that pain all over your body? That's what will happen to you if you do not love god! What do you think of that?" I love him!
Dave Allen
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I did have a discussion about this matter with a very reglious daily communicant and they told me that God created man and gave him a free will, which answers the question about wars etc., and also if anyone truly repents they will be forgiven.
Don't argue with me about this, it was not my answer, it was their answer.
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"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people". [Written by some bloke in the 19th century].
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As a father, I would give my life for my kids
They have always been well fed clothed and loved.
Any injury's that they may have suffered also affected me.
They have been helped where ever possible and woe betide anyone that does them grief.
I now call on God, stand up, be recognised as a father, if any of your children get harmed, (this is impossible because you are the almighty) by terrorism etc, prove who you are and sort it now.
You are obviously reading this because you are everywhere and also, as is taught, in my mind.
Exit your pearly gates, get on a cloud and float down and sort your mess out.
If you were a human you would be charged with genocide.
Here endeth my sermon.
From a true father and family man
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Another reason why I don't believe in God, Heaven, Hell, the Afterlife etc.
I remember sitting with my Grandma when I was about 12 and the news of the Aberfan Disaster was breaking. She was a very religious woman and used to attend chapel 3 times on a Sunday. When she heard the news she said "If there is a God and he loves little children he would never have allowed this to happen". She never stepped inside a chapel or church again in 36 years.
yes it was the Aberfan disaster, that turned me against religeon
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Another reason why I don't believe in God, Heaven, Hell, the Afterlife etc.
I remember sitting with my Grandma when I was about 12 and the news of the Aberfan Disaster was breaking. She was a very religious woman and used to attend chapel 3 times on a Sunday. When she heard the news she said "If there is a God and he loves little children he would never have allowed this to happen". She never stepped inside a chapel or church again in 36 years.
yes it was the Aberfan disaster, that turned me against religeon
I'm with this, putting aside the scientific view of the Big Bang theory and evolution proving (at least to me) that there is not some heavenly being in control, with all the killings in the world and through people close to me being taken through illness I don't believe in God or anything similar. I actually believe instead that religion is the cause of many of the worlds problems
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Oh and didn't he drown the entire human race, women and children included, apart from Noah and his family and some animals?
Doesn't sound overly forgiving to me.
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I'm more inclined to believe in aliens......
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Hmmmmm................. I was going to ask you about your avatar. ;)
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Strange, but I have often read that people who do not believe in God, when in trouble or when someone is desparately ill decide to pray.
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Doesn't work.
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I'm more inclined to believe in aliens......
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vyB2qlf2qt8/hqdefault.jpg)
"Well It's nonsense, isn't it?
What is?
- Religion.
- Er
- Think about it.
Very little evidence.
Blind faith, that's all we have to go on.
There's not a shred of proof! Nothing! Aliens? Now, there's something that might just be possible.
But everlasting life? Big demons sticking red-hot pokers up your arse for all eternity? I don't think so.
The whole religion thing, I just don't buy it".
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My Mother was dying of Cancer. I went to see her and suddenly she was just speaking rubbish and the Doctor said she had had a stroke and her brain was affected, there was no hope. I hated the thought that she would die like this without me being able to speak to her again.
I have to tell you I prayed very hard that night that she would be able to talk to me again. The next morning the phone rang and a voice said "Hello my best girl" it was my Mum and she had recovered all her brain power again. The Doctor was amazed. It was lovely to have the conversation with her I thought I would never have.
She died shortly after, but she was still speaking and thinking as she should have been.
So, it did work for me.
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Or something else did
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.....sticking red-hot pokers up your arse .......
Cold end first so they burn their hands trying to take them out ?
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You are possibly thinking about it a little too "deeply" H
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Or something else did
I will believe what I believe and the wonderful feeling I had when I heard her voice, will never forget it.
Whatever anyone else thinks is no consequence to me. :)
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Do you believe in God Jacqui? I got the impression from your earlier posts in this topic that you aren't. I'm warmed by the comfort believers draw from their faith, whether I believe in it or not.
But believing in it only when you need something to go your way isn't one of the options as far as I know.
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Yes I do, but I still can question religion as a lot of people do. There are things I still cannot get to grips with.
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Fair enough
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My Mother was dying of Cancer. I went to see her and suddenly she was just speaking rubbish and the Doctor said she had had a stroke and her brain was affected, there was no hope. I hated the thought that she would die like this without me being able to speak to her again.
I have to tell you I prayed very hard that night that she would be able to talk to me again. The next morning the phone rang and a voice said "Hello my best girl" it was my Mum and she had recovered all her brain power again. The Doctor was amazed. It was lovely to have the conversation with her I thought I would never have.
She died shortly after, but she was still speaking and thinking as she should have been.
So, it did work for me.
I do understand why people may pray in times of crisis or when things look hopeless even if they profess to not being religious. I can't say that I remember turning to it in my moment of need.
I do think, in the situation you described above, and similarly with my own experience, there is a well documented moment of clarity, just before the person passes away, where some seem to be more 'normal' tha they had been in a long time
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I have a very close friend who lost his first wife leaving three sons under eleven.
There is no absolutely no doubt that his faith saw him through that dreadful time.
Although we are very close and I know he wants to share his faith for my benefit, he never, ever tries to "impose" it on me.
Our local minister also offered his spiritual support after our daughters death.
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I think that is the point to me. If people have a faith then I admire them for that. In the same way I would not want to impose my beliefs (or lack of them) on anyone then I would not expect the same from others. It is not my place to question them on what they believe
Unless that same religion is used as a cause to start conflict, wars or personal attacks
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I agree with you Steve, it's a personal thing, and so it should be. Some people have tremendous faith
and it see's them through times of trouble. My one big gripe is the Jehovah Witnesses, they are constantly
trawling around the area where I live, disturbing peoples privacy, selling their beliefs.I have been abusive
to them and they still kept coming back.I threatened to go around to their Kingdom Hall with a loudhailer
and disturb their gatherings and they finally crossed me off their doorknockers list. I even had a woman
tap my shoulder while I was putting flowers on my family grave, trying to give me Jehovah leaflets.I was
really nasty to her but I was so angry at her intrusion. If they think their religion is good why are they
constantly trying to sell it.They should be banned.
If God is real he has a lot to answer for. I think the whole religion thing was dreamed up to keep the
population on the straight and narrow.
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Kevin3 your last sentence is exactly what I believe.
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Most religions are based on fear, threats and punishment.
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I had just drafted what I considered a measured response to this topic offering my take on the subject when my computer crashed.
Just goes to prove there isn't a god at all!!
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I too am warmed by the comfort others take from their faith. If that is what makes them happy and better able to live their life with peace then that is exactly what they should do. I also believe it is a personal thing and as such shouldn't be shoved down someone else's throat.
My theory is that gods were created as a means to be able to explain the unexplainable. The wise men of the time could tell people the sky is blue as it is the way god made it. The plants that grow to feed us are a gift from god etc etc. In the absence of advanced science it was intelligent man's way of rationalising the world and all its marvels. Some time later social conscience was installed and statements on the rights and wrongs of society included. Obviously consequences for not following the new religious code were naturally introduced thereby creating hell and the anti-christ or whatever the equivalent is in any other religion. So you believed in your god, did what the holy people told you what that god would have you behave and society flourished to its current (mostly) advanced state. Religion has an awful lot of fear attached to it as it was used as early law and order. Do the right thing and you go to heaven but do the wrong thing and you go to hell.
Over the generations we see evidence that one's religion is seen as the only true one so led to terrible loss of life through war after war after war. The crusades were a perfect example of this. This was of course Christian versus Muslim but there is just as much evidence of much religious hatred amongst factions of the same religion. Religion has without doubt been responsible for more deaths that most diseases.
Over the past 200 years we have seen exponential advancements in science that can factually dismiss a lot of the beliefs traditionally held by these religions. We are now able to confidently question the logic and possibility as this topic has done. Most of our advanced, free thinking societies tend to believe more in what they can see and hear and as such are more likely to believe in scientific fact as opposed to something illogically spiritual they can neither see, hear or feel. I feel science has replaced the original purpose behind religion in that we can now explain pretty much how we came to be.
Thats the way I see it anyhow.
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We all know, deep down, that there's no god, God or gods.
But the thought of nothing after our death, just existing in the memories of others and leaving behind a few of our skin cells on an undusted skirting board is too telling of our insignificance in this world and mocks the trivia we created. So we hang on to the thought that even us atheists, and I am definitely one, could just be wrong.
But we aren't.
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I guess we're pretty much all using the word "God" to mean some sort of supreme being with thoughts and actions capable of punishment and reward based on our earthly behaviour.
If we're "good" we go to Heaven.
The church of the time (Rome) also had to create the Devil to explain all the bad things that happen because their God can only do good.
Religions created the notion of a "supreme being" and it works very well for many of them.
I visited the Vatican and the Sistene Chapel earlier this year and I don't think Jesus would be very happy with how money collected in his name has been spent.
However, from another viewpoint entirely (without the aid of drink, drugs or a safety net) it is reasonable to assume that from nothing, nothing comes.
So, if there were ever a time when there was absolutely nothing in existence, then nothing would have ever come into existence.
But things do exist. Unless it's all in my mind.
Therefore, since there could never have been absolutely nothing, something had to have always been in existence.
That ever-existing thing is what many call God.
I don't know what it was so I'll call it God for now.
God is the "uncaused" whatever it was that caused everything else to come into existence.
God is the uncreated Creator who created the universe and everything in it.
Whatever or whoever God is.
In the beginning the world was without form and void.
And God created light.
And the world was still without form and void.
But everyone could see it.
If I were a pin - ball machine I would have just gone "TILT".
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Do you intentionally wait until you're under the influence of hallucinogenic substances before you post on CBF?
JF
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Does Miles tea count?
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Google the Christopher Hitchens You Tube debates on God with certain believers of 'high standing'. I would say he wins the debate/s without even trying!
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Just watched one of his clips and he is the kind of guy I can attune to.
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My only problem with reading anything by Christopher Hitchens is that I need to look up so many words, so often - but the man talks a lot of sense, even if he uses too many "big" words.
JF
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My only problem with reading anything by Christopher Hitchens is that I need to look up so many words, so often - but the man talks a lot of sense, even if he uses too many "big" words.
JF
When writing of Christopher Hitchens we should talk in the past tense as he sadly passed away a few years back. A real champion of atheism, and his book is worth a read as well as viewing the large number of you tube videos. Mind you he was not right on everything, in particular on Blair, Bush and the Iraq war.... Strange to hear him speak on justifying that war, as he was a - little mixed up - Marxist. Mind you so was his now rabid right wing brother Peter, until he fell in love with neo con politics and economics.
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Sorry UBT, soon as I see "neo" anything thats me fecked.
JF
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Sorry UBT, soon as I see "neo" anything thats me fecked.
JF
How very neolithic of you, Caveman.
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Ouch!
JF
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Now you need Neosporin JF.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neosporin
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Don't you bloody start as well!
JF
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So, you're not a neophile ? Obviously a neophobe then. ;)
(I'm done now. :) )
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So, you're not a neophile ? Obviously a neophobe then. ;)
Yeah, he's more of an Old Testament kind of bloke.
[See how I got back on topic there?]
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Hell yeah, fire and brimstone and all that. You got me sussed.
JF