Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
General Topics => The Debating Chamber => Topic started by: Scunner on November 07, 2013, 11:42:32 AM
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Coming from a headline doing the rounds again about a council cancelling Christmas because it might offend Muslims...
Are British Muslims offended by these things? My experience is that they couldn't care less, it's the people who somehow get elected to positions of power who dream all this rubbish up.
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I haven't seen this headline yet. If it is as true as the "Winterval" headline then it will be absolute fictional claptrap. In relation to your question I imagine most Muslims will be as offended as I am about people celebrating Eid - that is, not in the slightest. Now if you had asked about this bloody new-fangled Halloween nonsense my view would be different.
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It could be said that we offend some muslims - and speaking locally (Scotland) the muslims that we do offend are a) in the minority and b) as much a pain in the arse to your average muslim in the street as they are to us.
A few years ago a prospective labour candidate in the general election (who was a muslim local coucillor) suggested that the local (Asian) corner shops in Dundee should stop selling dog food with images of dogs on the packets/cans as it was offensive to followers of Islam.
Net result.. he did not get elected and no dogs went hungry in Dundee.
Maybe he just has a thing about dogs, or maybe he just wanted to play the "offended card"? Make your own mind up:
This how the telegraph reported another of his "offended cards" (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2229719/Apology-over-offensive-puppy-police-advert-after-Muslim-complaints.html)
and this how the Muslim Public Committee for UK reported it (http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/4775/)
JF
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Christmas shouldn't be offensive to any right thinking person. However as a human being I found the hacking to death of drummer Lee Rigby (god bless him) in the name of Islam horrendous.
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No more than the average agnostic I would have thought.
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It would I suppose be dependent upon who is included in the 'We', does it include, for example, any of these groups or individuals:
Gays people, atheists, agnostics, or just general non-believers, Christians (of various flavours including, but not restricted to Coptic, Asyrian, Catholic, 7 day adventists), Afro-Caribbeans, Sikhs, Jews (by ethinicty and ethinicity/religious,and whatabout zionists?) Buddhists, Serbs, Greeks, Croats, Hindus, Citizens and the leaders of the USA (both right wing and moderate), Richard Dawkins, Salman Rushdi.
I could perhaps go on but that's enough for now
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Oh do go on, what about Jeremy Clarkson?? there must be a huge number of people who are offended by others daring to breathe!
Simple, in Saudi Arabia a good?? Islamic Country no Churches, No Temples, No Synagogues, no praying together ---- even have to take a long diversion around Mecca and cant use the Motorway as a non Muslim and if you break down have to sit in the car and wait, maybe for hours, in temperatures over 120f -- as you must not set foot on the Holy ground near Taif. Offend me?? bloody right it did, but I chose to go and live there so ........
So, Muslim chooses to come and live here -- same rule applies except we don't treat them like pariahs!
Most Muslims I know wish me Merry Christmas as I wish them Eid Mubarak and hate that we placate extremists! In fact a few come round for a drink with us, some teetotal --some not, well, that is between them and their God not me!
Now Halloween, Colwyn I will join you on the barricades to stop that utter nonsense! --- Bloody Yanks! :)
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I've never understood what a "British Muslim" is !
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It's a British person, who is Muslim.
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No it's not its a Muslim who is a British Person! :)
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When in Rome do as the Romans do------or lump it!
:)
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When I detect a slight tide of criticism, via radio interviews or social media comments, from disgruntled Muslims it is not about Christianity in Britain it is about people like me - atheists. The complaint is not that non-Muslim British people believe in the wrong god, it is that this is a godless nation (those worried about offending my sensibilities may chose to refer to this as god-free).
Of course, I reject this. "When in Rome pretend to be a Roman Catholic": no bloody way.
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Quite right Colwyn. As I always say 'When in Bristol, look for the quickest road out." ;)
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I'm deeply offended by Christmas.
Roll on 2nd Jan.
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Why Menthol? Please explain. 8)
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Quite right Colwyn. As I always say 'When in Bristol, look for the quickest road out." ;)
I'm sure there would be plenty of Bristolians only too pleased to point it out to you.
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I'm deeply offended by Christmas.
Roll on 2nd Jan.
LOL Eeeeeh, tha'll get som stick in 'ere Lass! How about Yom Kippur? Or Divali? What are your
views on Guru Nanuk day? Love it Menthol, very good :)
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Sigh, the thing I hate the most is the horrendous bullying of Moslems by the Islamic? mafia from Pakistan the Biradari. Bradford has become like Chicago in the 1920's but its not Al Capone its Mohammed bin Drug Lord!
By pandering to their hatred by avoiding using the word Christmas which a lot of councils do makes me very angry indeed.
This is and should be a secular state but the vast majority would consider themselves Christian, (they are not of course, religion isn't about where you are born it is a belief and living to a code), and therefore they have the right to put "merry Christmas" etc, where they hell they like and nobody including the Moslems, Jews, Janes or Zoroastrians should complain!
Not far from where I live there are always signs up and Menorah decorations on Jewish Holy Days, nobody should be offended. There are areas where you will see lights for Divali, and don't think about going to Rusholme at Eid al Fitr :) unless you like playing sardines! I think it is great, we all seem to get along, but its not like that in a lot of Lancashire!
Khoda Hafez!
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I'm deeply offended by Christmas.
Roll on 2nd Jan.
I'm with you on 'roll on 2nd Jan', but it's more because I'm jaded by the whole Christmas hype.
Setting aside any personal or religious beliefs, I'm just fed up of how it's just morphed into a massive orgy of gift-grabbing and gluttony with no thought for what's behind it.
Who can spend the most on their kids' presents, how many did everyone get? What - you only got an iPhone 4? I got an iPhone 5 AND a new XBox AND a bike.
I really don't care. For me, the best thing about it is the opportunity to have a few days away from work, quietly re-centre myself and reconnect with Mr WB and the kids.
As far as offending Muslims (or anyone else) goes.... I believe that if you choose to live somewhere, you should accept their culture, customs and practices, whether that means people who come here accepting that as a nation we celebrate Christmas publicly, or me accepting that somewhere I choose to be doesn't.
Live and let live.......
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I am looking forward to Christams,2 young grandchildren, family around, playing games, nice food, time off work, maybe some nice presents (last on the list and the least important)
im blessed with a great family so whats not to like?
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I don't care about "what's behind" Christmas. I'm just up for the gluttony. This morning I ordered half a case of special Christmas red wine including Californian Zinfandel and NZ Pinot Noir. Hilary is preparing ingredients for her Christmas cake as I type.
As for councils banning Christmas - I'll believe it when I see it. I just looked up the Bristol Council website to see what they said about Christmes. My search produced 384 hits including The Lord Mayor's Christmas Appeal, a Christmas market to be held at the Council House (our version of Town Hall) and {perhaps of interest to Menthol} how to cope with the post-Christmas clean up.
{P.S. I just realized that some of the Council references to Christmas were actually about Christmas steps - a stone's throw away from Christmas Street. There would be riots in the street - again - if they renamed this famous old Bristol landmark "December 25th Steps".}
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My feelings for Christmas are pretty much like WordBird's.
Rest of my family (the Muslims and the non Muslims) love it. My husband is still looking for somewhere that re-creates that feeling of Christmas that he remembers so vividly from the 1970s. He came to live in the UK, from Kashmir, in 1969 as a wee nipper and got caught up in the whole build up to Christmas excitement.
I really do despise the full on, put yourselves in debt, let's not even think about the less fortunate for a minute culture. An excess of everything and more often than not, the pressure people subscribe to to 'get Christmas right' (colour co-ordinated Xmas tree, anyone?) means they are so stressed they dont actually enjoy it much and the divorce figures rise.
I haven't sent Christmas Cards for over 20 years now. I was spending ridiculous amounts on these bits of paper and then posting them. I decided to translate the cost into a charity donation. And not for any religious reasons, but just because I admire the excellent work they do with the homeless locally, the Salvation Army gets £75 from me and several bin bags of decent clothes I've sorted out.
I promise myself every year that I'll volunteer to help them with their Christmas meals for the homeless work and of course I never have :-[
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Being an atheist I am not offended by Christmas or any other celebration although the true meaning of Christmas has now pretty much disappeared for the majority.
I have also not seen any evidence that Muslims are offended by people celebrating Christmas, the more westenised muslims that I am aquainted with enjoy the holiday feel at this time of year.
All that aside Christmas has sadly become for many a big budget excercise with too much food and drink and an excess of presents for people with little appreciation for them.
Right I'm off to read a few line from my favorite book A Christmas Carol
"The cold within him froze his old features, nipped his pointed nose, made his eyes red, his thin lips blue, and he spoke out shrewdly in his grating voice ...."
(http://s21.postimg.org/80ufide2b/Scroge.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/80ufide2b/) :( :(
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I too have stopped sending cards to everyone I have ever rubbed shoulders with - it just got ridiculous. I also think exchanging of gifts should be kept to closest family as invariably something I have bought or has been bought for me ends up in the back of a cupboard as individual tastes vary so much. What a terrible waste of time and effort.
I keep dropping hints to friends not to buy me anything as I simply don't want anything - their friendship is enough and besides that, every year it gets harder to buy for them. I end up clutching at straws buying extortionately priced tat in xmas packaging!
The last straw was when some very dear friends bought us a plot of land on the Moon or somewhere equally remote……..and a few years later, an entitlement to be called Lord and Lady. Dear oh dear oh dear…………. :-[ Never mind offending Muslims - I am offended by the one-upmanship approach to xmas too.
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should we call you Lady B ? ;)
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TeeTee are you sure that wasn't a description of Tony Blair in the Christmas issue of "Shysters and Charlatans for young political science graduates"??
Well I absolutely love Christmas, I have my albums with things like "Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire" on them, Fir Scented joss sticks, an extravaganza of tasteful decoration, Christmas Cake I baked last year all ready along with Vintage Champagne and Barolo and Nuits St.George in the Wine Rack all ready! Not too mention my Santa Mankini for the neighbours Xmas party (Not a pretty sight but will amuse them!).
MMMM! Can taste the Christmas Day Bufard and Lamb and Chicken Curries with steaming Aromatic Rice already --- well I don't like Turkey and wifey from India so ........................................
Sad however I doubt I will see a single "Merry Christmas" in any of the Shopping Malls in Manchester and Bolton so as "not to offend the Muslims" the vast majority of whom are looking forward to the Holiday and enjoying Christmas with Christian and Hannukah with Jewish friends, just not joining in the religious part.
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Is this the same Manchester where the Council is proudly celebrating 15 years of its "award winning" Christmas Market and which switched on the Christmas Lights yesterday? Or is this a different, fantasy Manchester you have created in your imagination?
P.S. If you want to go to all the Manchester Christmas Markets the City Council helpfully provides a brochure and also a Christmas Markets Trail Map to show you where they all are. You'll be jingle-belled up to your eyebrows.
http://www.manchester.gov.uk/downloads/download/5525/christmas_markets_2013_brochure (http://www.manchester.gov.uk/downloads/download/5525/christmas_markets_2013_brochure)
P.P.S. Couldn't resist adding this. Bolton's Christmas lights will be switched on Monday 11 November and will be shown on BBC1 The One Show (I might watch this for the first time ever just to see if I can spot you in the crowd JT). Who will be the celebrity guest who will switch on the lights? Why, Bolton's famous boxer - Amir Khan, who else? He wouldn't appear to be offended by Christmas then !!!
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Well, if you read my post again anyone you will notice I referred to Shopping Malls, did I say there would be no Christmas Lights in Manchester? -- nope cant see I did, and yes they have lights, but rarely a "Merry Christmas" -- lots of Seasons greetings though! :) Be interesting this year to see if we have Merry Christmas but the reason I specified shopping malls was it is there where the most abandonment of the "C" word can be seen --- mustn't offend the Moslems -- ! Looking in the Bodyshop (from outside while wifey shopped) I was able to deliberately stand in front of the "seasons Greetings" in the Window ------- that made me feel so much better :)
Must share my amusement when being forced to go round the Manchester Christmas Market (load of crap in my opinion), I was delighted to hear one of the Girls on a stall say "Oh, yes, the Carpenter in our village makes all the windmills", (you know, those ones with candles and the hot air spins them round), which, as I had just looked underneath one to observe the "Made in China" confirmed my views!
Cant remember last year in Bolton -- but I am pretty sure the "c" word wasn't anywhere. I wont be there for the lights as I will be busy compiling statistics to get better performance from my "standard differential" or possibly studying for degree in "political media studies" with a group session of the Worsley Popular Front.
Meanwhile, off to the Old Boathouse on the Bridgewater Canal for real ale and some nice Pig!
Oink!
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By pandering to their hatred by avoiding using the word Christmas which a lot of councils do makes me very angry indeed
JT, did you forget you wrote this? Since you say there are "a lot" of these councils I suppose you are able to name some. Obviously not Manchester or Bolton though.
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I love Chrıstmas out here. No hype. We put up the tree and decoratıons early December. I paint my own Chrıstmas cards . Have the Chrıstmas CD,s on ın the car from 1st December and sıng a long .Go to the Carol Servıce christmas eve. Have Chrıstmas lunch wıth frıends at a local Hotel or Restaurant and end up at our Local bar for a quiz or card games and drinks. I make a Chrıstmas cake and mincemeat and the kıds bring us out Chrıstmas Puddıngs. Do we offend our Muslım neıghbours. No they all wısh us Happy Chrıstmas.
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And good for you ! What a lot of whingeing from the Meldrewites !
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Nightshift for me then, driving round checking the lights displays and banners to see if the "C" word is there
or the "SG" words, sigh, all this education and I end up an C&SG Inspector for the Calis Beach Forum -- oh, well -- could be worse -- not much mind you! I may have to have a Festive Season drink early if I find one!
Bad Santa
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I tend not to frequent Malls if I can avoid it so I've checked out Bristol extensive city centre one - Cabot Circus. I found that they have a Local Christmas Market and a German Christmas Market. The latter is next to the Christmas Pyramid. What's that? Here what the site says:
"A key feature of the market will be the 13-metre high ‘Christmas Pyramid’, with a giant rotating nativity scene, which will be the focal point of the market’s location in Broadmead alongside the skate rink. The Christmas nativity scene and advent calendar are very popular and will remind us of the religious origins of this special time of the year."
Pretty much Christmas in your face I would say.
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Well, You are right it is Christmas in your face from a commercial point of view everywhere I look, as long as you don't actually have a banner or in lights say "xxxxxx Christmas". (I take it you checked the website and not physically the Mall?)
Drove through a few places in Yorkshire yesterday evening, lots of lights, lots of displays, but nowhere the actual word "Christmas", particularly disappointed in Knaresborough North Yorkshire, as you enter the town a banner above says "Welcome to Knaresborough" not quite what I expected! Going to check out Bolton later and will let you know.
So, if its Xmas markets, Christmas everywhere on web sites and in shops the why not in the street or in the shopping mall?? Will check and see if Bodyshop have their usual dismal Seasons Greetings on the window! Trafford centre wifey going later so will get report. They haven't allowed the "C" word for the last 3 years so maybe this is the year!
Isnt this fun??
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So easily pleased ! Have you been on the wine gums again ?
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So easily pleased ! Have you been on the wine gums again ?
I knew you wouldn't keep my secret! :) Hic! :)
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JT, well at least you've stopped saying that local councils ban Christmas (or maybe just the use of the word Christmas). That's some progress I suppose. Now the attention has switched to shopping malls and you are not impressed by Bristol's Cabot Circus 40 foot high nativity scene, or Trafford Centre's Santa's Grand Grotto, it has to be the word "Christmas" preferably preceded by "XXXXXX" written on a banner.
I do hope you don't find one. I can't imagine how disappointed you will be. It will probably empty the last shreds of fun from your season of good cheer. Being a traditionalist I shall be celebrating the original holiday - the Pagan Midwinter festival. Now if you want to knock local councils you should see how little attention they pay to Midwinter, Saturnalia and Yule - in fact, none whatsoever. It is a disgraceful abandoning of Britain's very longstanding traditions. Not to worry; I will be bringing an evergreen tree into my home to ensure the onset of Spring whatever the council does.
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Go for it Colwyn! A nice evergreen in Wicun tradition!
I shall continue my quest strengthened by the knowledge that you are sustaining yourself in Festive Gluttony -- as I will also do :)
Merry Pagan Day to you!
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I love edited highlights of xmas, My grandchildrens faces when they open their 'Nanny sacks', Christmas carols in our local cathedral, Christmas markets etc. I send very few cards, waste of money, always have a few days away, so no cooking of huge gluttonous dinners, I am always happy to wish my colleagues Happy Eid, Diwali or whatever it is that they are celebrating, and expect no more in return. I can't and won't worry about offending anyone, life is too short.