Post by: kevin3 on May 13, 2016, 10:49:37 AM
He has a factory producing Smoked Salmon and he was recently ordered by the EU to replace his existing packaging with a new
design to include a warning notice to read " Warning. This product may contain fish " This exercise of interference by
un elected prats in Brussels, who's wages are paid for by you and I, cost that businessman approx' £ 35,000. Guess which way
he will vote. It now appears they are about to tell us which Kettles we can and cannot use. And next---------??
Post by: sadler on May 13, 2016, 11:20:19 AM
Post by: Colwyn on May 13, 2016, 11:29:29 AM
Post by: kevin3 on May 13, 2016, 12:55:59 PM
And I bet you still believe in the tooth fairy Colwyn.
Post by: sadler on May 13, 2016, 12:57:58 PM
Post by: kevin3 on May 13, 2016, 13:05:43 PM
And all because of some interfering little gits in Brussels.
Post by: Colwyn on May 13, 2016, 13:15:01 PM
And I bet you still believe in the tooth fairy Colwyn.Tooth Fairy? Is that Nigel Farage? At least he had enough sense to see that there would be an economic cost to leaving but thought it was worth it to gain "political independence". Really, in a globalized world???.
Post by: usedbustickets on May 13, 2016, 16:08:43 PM
Using the IMF's justification for staying in the EU. Particularly given their record across the globe, including ourselves as the EEC based UK and of course most recently in Greece. I always thought us class war warriors knew all about the IMF and its poor record of economic analysis and the only solutions that it ever advocates only suit international capital, rather than working people. I know I'm on the side of the angels where the IMF is concerned, so forgive me for not taking any notice of its 'siren voice' on the UK and that other bosses club, the EU.
Post by: Colwyn on May 13, 2016, 16:24:48 PM
Oh, you added another paragraph after I replied. What is your problem with the IMF in Greece? It was the IMF who told Germany and France (and their banks) to "forgive" 50% of their debt as that was the only way that the country could recover and actually make a sesious dent in their deficit. As to the positives - retain tariff-free access to 440 million non-British customers in one of the biggest markets in the world which constitutes 45% of our total exports. Membership of of a powerful international political block which virtually all of our non-EU allies want us to remain within. Our citizens covered by an effective human rights regime; our consumers gaining from EU protection against exploitation; and our workforce covered by Social Chapter provisions. Most of this legislation was opposed by the London Government - that have had other interests at the top of their successive priorities. For further positive information see Labour Movement literature.
Post by: usedbustickets on May 13, 2016, 16:35:31 PM
1. Leave the EU to end attacks on rail workers
New EU rail policies are set to further entrench rail privatisation and fragmentation. That will also mean more attacks or jobs and conditions and EU laws will make it impossible to bring all of rail back into public ownership.
2. Leave the EU to end attacks on seafarers and the offshore workers
The EU has promoted undercutting and social dumping leading to the decimation of UK seafarers. The same is now happening in the offshore sector. EU directives also require the tendering our public ferry services.
3. Leave the EU to end attacks on workers’ rights
It’s a myth that the EU is in favour of workers. In fact the EU is developing a new policy framework to attack trade union rights, collective bargaining, job protections and wages. This is already being enforced in countries which have received EU “bailouts”.
4. Leave the EU to end Austerity
If you join a union you expect members of the union to protect each other in times of trouble. The European Union has done the opposite. It has used the economic crisis to impose austerity and privatization on member states. Instead of protecting jobs and investment EU austerity is driving UK austerity.
5. Leave the EU to stop the attack on our NHS
The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) trade agreement being negotiated between the EU and the United States will promote big business at the expense government protections and organisations including our NHS! Environmental regulations, employment rights, food safety, privacy laws and many other safeguards will also be secondary to the right of corporations to make even bigger profits.
6. Leave the EU to support democracy
The vast majority of the laws that affects our lives are now made in the EU and not the UK. We have no say over those Laws. As the late Tony Benn said in 1991…
“We are discussing whether the British people are to be allowed to elect those who make the laws under which they are governed. The argument is nothing to do with whether we should get more maternity leave from Madame Papandreou [a European Commissioner].”
RMT will be promoting the six key points direct to members across all sectors of the transport industry through the union’s RMT NEWS, through branches and reps and through the union’s social media platforms.
RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:
“RMT is proud to stand up for the tradition of progressive and socialist opposition to the European Union, an organisation wedded to privatisation, austerity and attacking democracy.
“It would be frankly ludicrous for a union like ours to support staying in a bosses club that seeks to ban the public ownership of our railways, attacks the shipping and offshore sectors and embraces the privatisation of the NHS and other essential services that our members depend on.
“RMT has set out the six core reasons for our members to vote to leave and we will be campaigning hard on this platform.”
Post by: Highlander on May 13, 2016, 19:08:48 PM
Ah yes, anyone who points out the obvious economic risks of leaving is part of Project Fear.
Something similar here during the Independence Referendum. If you were a NO voter you were automatically labelled as unpatriotic.
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on May 13, 2016, 19:36:28 PM
Post by: Scunner on May 13, 2016, 19:39:37 PM
And I lived through the Scottish Independence referendum.
Post by: kevin3 on May 13, 2016, 20:55:34 PM
Today they gave John Major a rostrum and a script. It says much about his judgement that he had a sexual relationship with Edwina
Curry, (yuk.) The EU has already started to crack, member states are throwing up razor wire borders, Merkel has shown that Germany
controls the EU, smaller countries are told what to do, mass migration will accelerate, bankrupting smaller economies, and Junker has
admitted that Brussels interferes far too much in the affairs of member countries but no mention of stopping the practice. The original
concept seemed a good idea but it has been hijacked by an unelected eurocratic elite with a super power agenda and the verbal trot's.
I guess that makes me an "out " :)
Post by: stoop on May 14, 2016, 15:34:52 PM
Post by: Colwyn on May 14, 2016, 15:46:50 PM
I have never heard such a load of b*llocks in my life than the cr4p the Stay campaign have manufactured/released.Quite so. But I think it applies to both sides. None of the "debate" has been very edifying: some of it makes Prime Minister's Questions look erudite. I think the discussion on CBF has been rather better (and I include, begrudgingly, kevin3 in that. I thought the best speech so far was made by Boris Johnson but, unfortunately, I couldn't believe a word of it since I knew what he really meant was: " I urge you to vote to leave, even though I have always been an EU supporter all my life, because it is my best shot at becoming the next Prime Minister".
However, in the spirit of drivel I would like to contribute to the debate in similar style by offering Two Positive Reasons for Voting Leave:
1) We will be thrown out of Eurovision. This will stop us wasting any more money on this annual farce and give back one Saturday night to proper programmes employing British actors, comedians, musicians, et cetera.
2) We will be thrown out of the soccer European Champions League. This will stop all that dreary waffle on the radio about who will be in the "Top 4". It won't matter. One team each year will win the league and everybody else won't. The same would apply to EUFA 2016 (and beyond) and stop England from embarrassing itself yet again by being knocked out by Albania (or whoever) every time they go in for it. English folk are so upset by this that industrial productivity goes down by 20% for weeks after.
P.S. On the topic of drivel why do forum administrators deploy software to prevent bad language and then use ingenious typographic devices to get round their own rules. That's probably down to Brussels as well.
Post by: kevin3 on May 15, 2016, 01:59:37 AM
Colwyn
I begrudgingly accept your accolades, but not the rest of your contribution. Utter b#llocks. Smiley thingy x2.
Post by: davybill on May 15, 2016, 07:44:59 AM
Just worry about the six nations rugby? LOL.
Post by: usedbustickets on May 15, 2016, 09:08:56 AM
As to your other pieces of misdirection and mischief, we will still be in the Champions League, but I do hear that we will be excluded from the peanut hugging danish lager cup, and the six nations will become three.
As to the out of Eurovision? Unfortunately not, a vote for out of the EU will not be a vote for out of Eurovision, come on look at the non eu members of that bling fest of a song contest such as Russki, Israel, Turkey, Ukraine... Still Congratulations, you've shown that the UK will not be a Puppet on a String, and will avoid the boom banga bang bang, saving its kisses for when it finally makes its mind up!
Post by: davybill on May 15, 2016, 13:56:37 PM
Post by: Highlander on May 23, 2016, 08:06:36 AM
Post by: davybill on May 23, 2016, 08:40:04 AM
Post by: Colwyn on May 23, 2016, 08:44:01 AM
Post by: JohnF on May 23, 2016, 09:32:34 AM
I heard an Out supporter (a female MP) rabbiting on about god knows how many millions Turks would be appearing in a high street near you within a year or so, and thought - how can someone sit there and blatantly lie over Turkeys accession process. Then I remembered, she's a politician.
JF
Post by: Colwyn on May 23, 2016, 09:50:07 AM
Post by: JohnF on May 23, 2016, 10:11:58 AM
I wasn't paying much attention to be honest, I have my opinion and it wont be changed by anything I hear on television or other media. I got the impression she was talking about Turkeys formal accession to the EU taking only a year or two - a process that, to quote an IN campaigner, will take "decades".
JF
Post by: kevin3 on May 23, 2016, 13:59:45 PM
The RTE factor will ensure it NEVER happens, but the UK's borders are so porous the end result will be the same
whatever the circumstances. This referendum is about showing us what a lying, hypocritical bunch of b##tards
we pay to represent us.
Post by: Colwyn on May 23, 2016, 14:27:28 PM
This referendum is about showing us what a lying, hypocritical bunch of b##tards we pay to represent us.Is it? I thought it was about whether or not we remain within the EU. But if you say all those Old Etonians will disappear if we vote "Leave" I may have to rethink. But I suspect we will swap one set of OEs for another.
Post by: kevin3 on May 23, 2016, 14:48:44 PM
Well from all the scenario's presented thus far, it seems the Jehovah's have nailed it.
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on May 23, 2016, 15:09:39 PM
The rabbiting out supporter is a minister in the present government. Not only did she go on about the Turks, she did not even know that countries had the right to veto applications. So much for taking her advice.
I do enjoy the reading the Daily Mail and the Express. Anyone who makes a statement supporting remaining in the EU does not know what they are talking about and are spreading fear. Any nobody who makes a statement supporting the leave campaign is an expert and knows what he is talking about.
Post by: usedbustickets on May 24, 2016, 11:22:17 AM
Got to say that I am looking forward to the Cameron - Farage debate on ITV. OK the debate will be on a right wing platform, but hopefully we will see somebody who will - figuratively speaking - lay a glove or two on Cameron in open debate. Well as open a debate as the Dave's media advisers will allow the debate to be!! Truth be told we should be seeing a Cameron - Corbyn debate on the matter. Cos until he took on the Labour leadership, Corbyn was always opposed to the bosses club that is the EU.
Having said that there has been an absence of left wing views on why we should leave the EU, there is an excellent article from Larry Elliott in last Friday's Guardian. So as they do not come along too often, please make this a must read.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/20/brexit-best-answer-to-dying-eurozone-eu-undemocratic-elite (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/20/brexit-best-answer-to-dying-eurozone-eu-undemocratic-elite)
Post by: Colwyn on May 24, 2016, 15:13:20 PM
Unfortunately I shan't be home to display this as I shall be in Turkey.
(http://s6.postimg.org/5b2g8fswx/Vote_poster.jpg)
It seems to me that the Labour Movement is remarkably united over this vote; far more more than last time I voted on the issue. Of course there are some outriders, like the RMT Union that apparently believes that it is the EU that has been imposing austerity on Britain - haven't they been listening to that chap who lives in No 11 since at all? He has been banging on about the necessity of austerity since he moved in, in 2010. But, generally, both Trade Union Movement and the Party are behind the Remain campaign. Somewhat lacking the fireworks of the Tory lot of course, but solid support is there.
Post by: Colwyn on May 28, 2016, 10:32:10 AM
Post by: Scunner on May 28, 2016, 10:51:27 AM
With all the utter rubbish being claimed (by both sides) it would be nice to know where the split is currently.
Post by: Colwyn on May 28, 2016, 11:01:51 AM
Here's the latest BBC poll of polls. It shows Remain 44%, Leave 38%, Don't Know 18%. I wouldn't place too much credence on it though. Individual polls have been going up and down wildly showing quite different scores, and different methods of polling (e.g. internet v. telephone) give different results. The latest one shows Don't Know up by 8% - a very odd result.
Post by: Scunner on May 28, 2016, 13:29:10 PM
Also in the Scottish Independence referendum most of the passion/noise (call it what you like) came from the independence supporters - as were most of the rallies and even the YES/NO posters in people's windows, Yes ones were numerous and No ones quite rare.
I guess it's easy to get excited about the chance to move to something new - whereas keeping everything as it is might be difficult to get all animated about.
So if it's neck and neck in the polls, expect to stay in the EU ;)
Post by: kevin3 on May 28, 2016, 16:12:16 PM
After the last General Elections pollsters predictions I question the need to employ them, they all got it wrong.
Milliband was so convinced he was going to walk it he sent a message to No 10 asking the Cameron's to vacate
10 Downing Street within 48 hours of the election result, Ended up with egg on his face to go with the bacon.
Post by: nichola on May 28, 2016, 17:12:39 PM
https://m.oddschecker.com/t/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result
My feeling is those that want to leave will drag themselves from their hospital bed if necessary to vote. I don't get the same feeling about remain voters. I pretty much agree with Scunner about remaining not being something to get all excited about.
The leave campaign certainly have the loudest and for the most part ugliest (some might call it passionate) voices though... We've certainly seen the worst in the war of words on this.
Post by: Colwyn on May 28, 2016, 17:21:05 PM
If my reading of this is correct the UK looks set to leave and is probably a more reliable reference than the opinion polls.I am not a betting person, but doesn't this say that about 55% of bets back Remain to win and get between 50-65% of the vote with 55-60% of the vote being the most popular bet?
Post by: nichola on May 28, 2016, 17:24:34 PM
Post by: Scunner on May 28, 2016, 17:28:54 PM
Post by: Colwyn on May 28, 2016, 17:38:42 PM
Not j-p after all. It just took the page a long time to load so I had clicked the REMAIN vote percentage button which gives more detailed information.
Post by: Jacqui Harvey on May 28, 2016, 17:47:32 PM
Post by: Colwyn on May 28, 2016, 17:55:44 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/23/eu-referendum-poll-pensioners-tory-voters-and-men-are-deserting/
Post by: nichola on May 28, 2016, 18:18:52 PM
Post by: Scunner on May 28, 2016, 18:21:10 PM
Post by: Colwyn on May 28, 2016, 18:32:39 PM
So I did understand correctly then... :)I'll bet not.
Post by: davybill on May 29, 2016, 09:23:30 AM
Post by: usedbustickets on May 29, 2016, 19:42:40 PM
Post by: Scunner on May 29, 2016, 20:24:54 PM
Post by: davybill on May 30, 2016, 07:55:00 AM
Post by: Colwyn on May 30, 2016, 08:55:24 AM
Post by: davybill on May 30, 2016, 12:57:35 PM
And most bookies will cover their losses anyway.
Post by: usedbustickets on May 30, 2016, 15:36:51 PM
Post by: kevin3 on May 30, 2016, 20:35:19 PM
Five weeks ago Dodgy Dave Cameron stood up in Parliament and slammed Corbyn, the Labour shadow cabinet, and the Labour Party
for nominating Sadiq Khan as London Mayor candidate for his appearance several times on platforms shared by "ISIL and Jihadi supporters"
Today the hypocrite has spent the day with Khan, touring around together backing the "Remain" campaign, and introducing Khan as a
a fine example of integration, son of an immigrant bus driver, ect, ect, ect, And Cameron want's us to believe him and take him seriously.
Lying sod.
Post by: Scunner on May 31, 2016, 00:08:13 AM
Post by: kevin3 on May 31, 2016, 07:05:17 AM
But we let them, and pay them to do so. I think we should sell the Houses of Parliament, there's never anyone in there.
Just rent a venue once a week for PMQs, that's the only time the commons is full.
The Lords and the Commons are a very expensive joke, and the jokes on us.
Post by: Colwyn on May 31, 2016, 08:59:11 AM
Without doubt, and irrespective of outcome, the EU referendum has exposed more fully than ever the shameless expediency of UK politicians of all sides. Forget what I said, I'm now saying the opposite.
That seems a little harsh Scunner. People are allowed to change their minds.
I love Europe, it's the unaccountability of the EU I can't abide. If we don't agree we can't vote them all out. Staying in but in a much revamped EU sounds great but simply isn't going to happen.
Some of the social legislation is beneficial but couldn't we just adopt that anyway as a standalone democracy? If the tories won't do that at least we have the chance to vote them out.
From uncharacteristically undecided to OUT. We're strong enough to run our own business affairs - it's just been so long since we did, we can't remember.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have decided to vote to stay in.That is my business and I won't be changed. But I must say, I have never heard such a load of b*llocks in my life than the cr4p the Stay campaign have manufactured/released.
And I lived through the Scottish Independence referendum.
Post by: Scunner on May 31, 2016, 09:36:16 AM
Post by: stoop on May 31, 2016, 10:31:14 AM
His fear of being the PM that led us out of the EU has caused this and nothing else.
He should have grown a pair and stuck to his principals. I'm sure he wants us out but just doesn't want to be the one blamed for it when it happens.
Watch him change his tune if we leave.
Post by: Colwyn on May 31, 2016, 11:19:17 AM
I'm sure he wants us outWhat on earth prompts you to make this extraordinary assessment?
Post by: JohnF on May 31, 2016, 11:45:50 AM
An interesting statement on the demographics involved from Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum), make your own mind up in relation to its accuracy:
Younger voters tend to support remaining in the EU (but are less likely to vote) whereas older people tend to support leaving. There is no significant difference in attitudes between the genders. High-skilled workers and university graduates are most likely to favour staying in the EU while the low-skilled and those with no qualifications are most likely to favour leaving. White voters are evenly split, and all ethnic minority groups lean towards backing Remain, but registration is lower and turnout could be up to 25% lower in this demographic. Support for remaining in the EU is significantly higher in Scotland than it is in Great Britain as a whole, with Scottish voters saying they are more likely to vote.
Scotland is very definitely in the pro EU camp - and if the UK as a whole votes to leave the EU then the SNP will view that as their mandate to have another independence referendum
JF
Post by: usedbustickets on May 31, 2016, 12:21:26 PM
Post by: JohnF on May 31, 2016, 12:26:30 PM
In Scotland, I haven't come across many Outs.
Our circle of friends and acquaintances who currently reside outside the UK (who are eligible to vote) are remains, almost to a man (or woman).
JF
Post by: kevin3 on May 31, 2016, 13:08:21 PM
Merkel and Hollande showed their true feelings towards the UK and Cameron when they were dismissing his "red line " demands
in the run up to his supposed re negotiations, saying they don't need the UK. They don't want our opinions, just our financial
contributions and the stability that brings. They are crapping themselves that if we leave others will follow and their Brussels
Palace power base will crumble, leaving them in charge of the ruins.
Post by: Colwyn on May 31, 2016, 14:09:38 PM
Younger voters tend to support remaining in the EU (but are less likely to vote) whereas older people tend to support leaving.I think this was the accepted wisdom until recently. A week ago, however, the Telegraph painted a different picture with their poll showing the over-65s split 55% Remain to 42% Leave. As with the bookies odds I think this is wildly optimistic. I think Remain is the very likely winner - but 6/1 on I can't believe reflects the political chances. A spokesperson from Ladbrooks was interviewed this morning in Radio 5 and said the odds only reflected the amount of money at risk for them but that their own calculations were that Remain was the 72% likely result. Even this sounds optimistic to me.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/23/eu-referendum-poll-pensioners-tory-voters-and-men-are-deserting/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/23/eu-referendum-poll-pensioners-tory-voters-and-men-are-deserting/)
Post by: stoop on May 31, 2016, 14:13:40 PM
Imagine having to leave your home, your family and your friends to go work in some crappy job in another country because it's the only way to survive?
50% youth unemployment in Spain? How many of them actually want to move here or to Germany to get work?
Post by: stoop on May 31, 2016, 14:16:04 PM
We can dismiss most of the claims for the “single market” – too often an excuse for a morass of politically driven legislation that costs UK business about £600 million a week. In the 20 years since the dawn of the 1992 Single Market programme, there were many countries that did far better than the UK at exporting to the EU; 27 non-EU countries did better at increasing their exports of goods, and 21 did better at ramping up their exports of services. Of course they did: American and other non-EU businesses have excellent “access” to the EU, but aren’t wrapped in EU red tape, whereas we have only 6 per cent of companies trading with the rest of the EU – yet 100 per cent of them have to comply with EU law.
And is the EU booming, thanks to the “single market”? Of course not. Since 2008 the US has seen gross domestic product go up by about 13 per cent; the EU’s has gone up by 3 per cent. The EU is a graveyard of low growth; the only continent with lower growth is currently Antarctica. That is partly because of the sclerotic one-size-fits-all Brussels approach to regulation; but, worse, in the last decade the EU has been suffering from a self-inflicted economic disaster – the euro.
We get inured to some of the figures – the 50 per cent youth unemployment in Greece and Spain – without stopping to think of the individual tragedies; the suicide rates; the inability to get medical treatments; the blighting of young lives. It is a moral outrage; and the search for a safety valve is continuous.
On our doorstep we have a vast and developing tragedy – caused by the folly of trying to impose a single currency on an area with different labour markets and different rates of productivity. Take away their ability to devalue – with their own independent currencies – and many parts of the EU have found it impossible to compete.
What can they do? There are broadly three responses. The first is for the battered southern Mediterranean states to obey the diktat of the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund. They can cut costs. They can punish workers. They can cut pensions and holidays and benefits and hope that they can somehow bring their unit labour costs in line with Germany. The resulting austerity has taken a vicious toll, demand has fallen, confidence is shot to hell, and the suffering continues. The riots have now spread to France.
Alternatively, they can be treated as the poor and backward parts of a single political unit – like the south of the US, or the Mezzogiorno of Italy. They can beg for cash subsidies to keep them going.
The trouble with this approach is that it requires the German taxpayer to be extremely generous to non-Germans – and as the programme develops, the Germans are inevitably demanding restraint on the fiscal policies of their clients, since he who pays the piper calls the tune. That is why the next step – post the UK referendum – is to try full-bore to create an “economic government of Europe”, using the single-market institutions, in a way that will inevitably drag us in – and for which the UK taxpayer will end up paying. This “political union” will be both horrifically anti-democratic and expensive; for us, too.
Then, of course, there is a third way in which people can respond to the disaster of being locked in a suboptimal currency zone, when their own region is unable to compete. They can simply move. That is what is happening now – on a scale never seen before in our lives. People are leaving the areas of Europe that are being hit by the euro crisis, and they are moving in search of work – above all to Britain. Last week we saw some astonishing figures: 270,000 immigrants from the EU – and 184,000 net. That is the same as a city the size of Oxford. We are in the throes of the fastest demographic change for 1,000 years.
I have always championed the benefits of immigration, and the ability of talented people from around the world to contribute to the life of this country. But how can anyone claim that this is not an economic phenomenon? Immigration is now the single biggest driver of our population – set to soar to 70 or 80 million. It is this surge in demand that is largely causing the housing crisis, and the almost overwhelming pressure to destroy the green belt. It is immigration that has been relentlessly helping to compress the wages of the low-paid while the FTSE-100 chiefs (many lobbying for Remain) have seen their pay go up to 150 times that of their average worker.
Priti Patel was absolutely right to point out yesterday that such executives – nice and well-meaning though they may be – are insulated from the impacts of these inflows on GP surgeries and school places. And the flows will get much, much bigger as the new Living Wage takes effect. The UK minimum wage is already the equivalent of €1,529 a month – compared with €215 in Bulgaria and €233 in Romania. Think of that magnetic effect – if we continue, as now, with no way of moderating the tide.
There may be a case to be made for this influx. Perhaps the public could be persuaded. But that is emphatically not what the Government has chosen to do. Year after year we have been told that immigration can be cut to the “tens of thousands” – a claim that now looks demonstrably hollow as long as we are in the EU.
People do not necessarily object to immigration, and certainly not to the immigrants themselves. They object to the absence of democratic consent. There is no balance or discretion in the policy, because we do not control it – and the only way to take back control is to vote Leave on June 23.
Post by: Colwyn on May 31, 2016, 15:40:46 PM
largely unprompted by meYou losing your mojo, mate?
Post by: stoop on May 31, 2016, 15:45:08 PM
I'm sure he wants us outWhat on earth prompts you to make this extraordinary assessment?
Just a feeling based on his past statements claiming how we would survive and prosper outside the EU.
I just don't think he wants to be remembered as the man who shattered the EU.
What a legacy if he'd come out in favour of coming to (which he should not have been allowed to do - just like he is trying to scare us to stay in - he should be impartial IMO).
Post by: mercury on May 31, 2016, 16:21:07 PM
..
Post by: KKOB on May 31, 2016, 17:02:36 PM
47 per cent of online respondents said they would like to leave, compared to 44 per cent who said they would vote remain.
The figures represent a dramatic swing on a similar ICM poll conducted in mid-May, which found a ten per cent lead for the remain camp on phone polling, while online surveys turned up a 52 per cent lead for Brexit.
http://www.cityam.com/242275/uk-public-leaning-towards-brexit-vote-say-new-polls
Post by: teetee on May 31, 2016, 19:16:38 PM
"Turkey to gain EU membership. (Population 76 million)
Vote Leave"
Well another example of non bias fact
Post by: Highlander on May 31, 2016, 21:09:40 PM
Post by: usedbustickets on May 31, 2016, 21:23:36 PM
Nope I'm playing the long game of slowly, slowly catchy monkey!!largely unprompted by meYou losing your mojo, mate?
Post by: pops on June 01, 2016, 18:16:39 PM
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/
You enter your stance and it then allows you to see how others have voted. Makes for interesting viewing.
Post by: kevin3 on June 06, 2016, 18:59:23 PM
Dodgy Dave Cameron today announced that if we vote to leave it will put an atomic bomb under the economy. !!!!
He didn't make it clear whether that would be before or after World War Three. I'm voting to cause it all. :)
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on June 06, 2016, 19:52:36 PM
Post by: kevin3 on June 06, 2016, 22:23:28 PM
" Blatant lies " ? So why are the EU holding regular meetings with Turkish officials in order to pave the way to full membership, and
issuing regular statements saying they will welcome Turkey as a member state.? Brussels want an enlarged EU Superstate at
any cost and Merkel has shown that her ambitions in that direction take priority over German nationals right to freedom of speech.
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on June 06, 2016, 23:09:32 PM
For Turkey to gain entry all current members must be in favour. Cyprus, Greece and France will veto any application. Joining the EU is not just based on what Germany says. Entry is complicated. In 25 years Turkey has actually not really progressed it's application. The next president of France is likely to be Nicolas Darkish and he will veto any Turkish application.
The EU is talking to Turkey and has to talk to Turkey because of the refugee crisis. Without Turkey's involvement the numbers trying to cross into the EU will rise significantly and we will be back to seeing children being washed up dead on the beaches.
I
Post by: kevin3 on June 06, 2016, 23:55:35 PM
Which is a perfect example of how two faced the EU are, say one thing and mean another. Say one thing to Cameron
but do something totally different regardless. How are we supposed to trust them.??
Post by: davybill on June 07, 2016, 05:48:05 AM
Post by: JohnF on June 07, 2016, 08:46:52 AM
So why are the EU holding regular meetings with Turkish officials in order to pave the way to full membership, and issuing regular statements saying they will welcome Turkey as a member state.?
They're not.
The accession process for Turkey to join the EU has a loooong way to go, and there are no guarantees that Turkey is actually capable of fulfilling many of the chapters required. The issue over Cyprus is just one of the many stumbling blocks that will not be resolved overnight.
Had a couple of friends from Ankara visiting at the weekend, both "veterans" of Gezi - one is doing a post graduate course in the UK and is feeling at first hand the rise of Turkophobia we are seeing in the UK, fueled by the "out" campaign and trashy tabloids.
I was embarrassed, and angry. They were confused and felt, to a certain extent, unwelcome in the UK.
This is two well educated and politically aware young(ish) Turks who are not here to "steal" jobs, who are not here to "queue jump" the needy for housing and if they did wish to stay longer would be an asset to any country. Fortunately, they are well aware of political campaigns and for the majority of the time do not take the insults to them, and their country, personally.
JF
Post by: usedbustickets on June 07, 2016, 13:18:32 PM
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on June 07, 2016, 17:23:35 PM
Today in the Daily Mail that stupid woman Katie Hopkins wrote an article that was basically saying that Ramadan is outdated and should be done away with. Anyone observing Ramadan should not be allowed to work.
Is this the UK that people want
Post by: nichola on June 07, 2016, 20:09:59 PM
Martin Lewis' website (Moneysavingexpert) are running a poll this week regarding how people intend to, or will vote. Tis almost at the bottom of their Homepage.
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/
You enter your stance and it then allows you to see how others have voted. Makes for interesting viewing.
Martin Lewis who I believe to be fairly well respected and trusted on financial affairs has come out in favour of the In Team and will be voting to REMAIN
Post by: Rana on June 07, 2016, 20:49:18 PM
Post by: pops on June 07, 2016, 21:11:20 PM
Martin Lewis' website (Moneysavingexpert) are running a poll this week regarding how people intend to, or will vote. Tis almost at the bottom of their Homepage.
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/
You enter your stance and it then allows you to see how others have voted. Makes for interesting viewing.
Martin Lewis who I believe to be fairly well respected and trusted on financial affairs has come out in favour of the In Team and will be voting to REMAIN
That is what I understand too Nichola.
Post by: nichola on June 07, 2016, 22:09:57 PM
A surprising amount by people you might expect to know something about it.
Just for the record any EU country the UK included can veto Turkey's membership. It only takes one country to veto it and that will be that.
That aside Turkey is no where near completing the hoops it has to jump through to be even considered for membership.
The EU visa deal agreed, primarily to trade human beings like cattle does not include visa free travel to the UK and even in the other European countries it is only a visa for travel. You know, like when you go on holiday...
And for all it's faults I think you will find the overwhelming majoity of Turks rather like living in their own country with it's nice weather, hospitable friendly people and cheaper by far living conditions.
Post by: Rana on June 07, 2016, 22:25:27 PM
Post by: usedbustickets on June 08, 2016, 08:40:24 AM
Post by: Rana on June 08, 2016, 09:02:35 AM
Post by: nichola on June 08, 2016, 10:21:12 AM
As you point out there are already many Turks living and working abroad and they were able to do that because of existing rules which have absolutely nothing to do with Europe.
Being part of the EU, or not, will do nothing to change that.
Perhaps the UK should leave the UN and NATO as well.
In an increadingly globalised world it just seems ridiculous to me for the UK to try and isolate itself further and reduce itself to a minor if not irelevant player.
Post by: usedbustickets on June 08, 2016, 13:29:19 PM
Being part of the EU will do nothing to change existing rules ... really?? I simply ask you whether you have you been paying attention to what Merkel and Junker have been saying or giving or agreeing with Turkey, up to and including a fast track to EU membership, in order to get themselves out of the mess that they have made for us all with the way the economic migrant issue has been handled.
No one from the Brexit side is suggesting that the UK leaves the UN (where we have a permanent seat on the Security Council) or NATO which has been the single most important organisation to European peace since WW2. Although I would say that to be a member of both those organisations we do not need to ceed sovereignty or national laws and law making, and by and large they both do their jobs with the resources they have been given.
Yes it is an increasingly globalised world, but outside of the EU project which democratic nations are giving away national sovereignty, law making, fiscal and monetary control to supra-national organisations, simply to trade with one another? Particularly one as inefficient as the EU.
Post by: usedbustickets on June 08, 2016, 13:40:48 PM
Post by: Colwyn on June 08, 2016, 13:45:07 PM
reduce itself to a minor if not irelevant player.I think we should question whether this would be such a bad thing for the UK. Being a minor and/or irrelevant nation might mean that our politician would not feel obliged to take part in every war that the US joins in so that we wouldn't invade Iraq (twice) and Afghanistan and bomb Libya (thus turning the country into an ungovernable hellhole)and desire to bomb our our new ally Assad (except Parliament intervened). We could also save the billions we propose to spend on Trident the only "benefit" of which is that it allows some of our politicians to sit on the UN Security Council and swan about pretending they are major and relevant. The happiest nationality on the planet is the Danish and they don't waste their money on non-independent nuclear non-deterrents. I think I could swap bombs for happiness.
On the other hand, leaving the EU would just be silly.
Post by: usedbustickets on June 08, 2016, 13:57:25 PM
Don't disagree with most of that Colwyn. Although I would simply observe that should the UK leave the EU, my money would be on the happy Danes to be next on the list for an exit from the EU.reduce itself to a minor if not irelevant player.I think we should question whether this would be such a bad thing for the UK. Being a minor and/or irrelevant nation might mean that our politician would not feel obliged to take part in every war that the US joins in so that we wouldn't invade Iraq (twice) and Afghanistan and bomb Libya (thus turning the country into an ungovernable hellhole)and desire to bomb our our new ally Assad (except Parliament intervened). We could also save the billions we propose to spend on Trident the only "benefit" of which is that it allows some of our politicians to sit on the UN Security Council and swan about pretending they are major and relevant. The happiest nationality on the planet is the Danish and they don't waste their money on non-independent nuclear non-deterrents. I think I could swap bombs for happiness.
On the other hand, leaving the EU would just be silly.
Post by: Colwyn on June 08, 2016, 14:44:43 PM
Post by: faymoore on June 08, 2016, 16:57:03 PM
One particular point which I kept thinking about is this...
It was said that "On leaving the EU we will not be able to trade with other EU members (or at the very least we would need to re-negotiate trading conditions) which will effect our GDP etc... Loss of jobs, revenue streams etc..
If we were to leave (starting a possible domino effect) would those concerns not be nullified by allowing us to trade more freely with those other departing countries?
Dave.
Post by: Colwyn on June 08, 2016, 17:10:09 PM
Post by: nichola on June 08, 2016, 18:02:14 PM
It is the leave campigners that have raised the issue of Turkey's imminent membership of the EU which could not be further from the truth. There is a leave poster doing the rounds implying wrongly that 70 million Muslim Turks are about to descend on the UK if the UK remains in Europe. The leave campaign has been consistant from the outset in playing on people's fears of immigration and yet if the UK was to leave the EU the streets would not suddenly be cleansed of all immigrants, the jobs they are doing and the houses they occupy would not suddenly be available. There will be no 'getting our country back'.
You said that there are already large communities of Turkish people already living abroad including in the UK.
As Turkey is not part of the EU they have been able to do this through other already existing means that have nothing to do with the EU. My point being that if Turks want to move to the UK there are already ways they can do this. In or out won't make any difference not least because the visa issues being discussed in Europe with Turkey are not about freedom of movement to live and work, just visa free travel for booking holidays in Europe, and this excludes the UK.
I made the point about the UN and NATO merely to highlight the point that if the UK wants to take an isolationist stance then perhaps they should reconsider their membership of those organisations too. The UN in particular and the UN Conventions and Treaties they have signed are in fact what has enabled many Turks to migrate to the UK!
Post by: nichola on June 08, 2016, 18:16:25 PM
(http://s33.postimg.org/czn7lp9ez/FB_IMG_1465405766704.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/czn7lp9ez/)
Post by: AOK on June 08, 2016, 18:46:54 PM
'' “being in the EU ensures we are controlling immigration and securing our borders”
;D
Post by: Stuart T on June 08, 2016, 19:14:55 PM
I'll have to go with whichever frightens me the least.......I've heard little about what I have to gain by staying in or leaving - only what I have to lose.
Surely we voted into power people of far greater ability than (certainly me) to make these decisions on the nation's behalf.
There's not an informed CBF member whose posted views I can reasonably argue with. On both sides!
My instincts are to go out but.......oh, gosh - I'm living an episode of "Yes Minister".
Post by: nichola on June 08, 2016, 19:36:29 PM
But do watch out for fake web sites like this one the Leave campaign posted...
http://www.thecanary.co/2016/06/07/vote-leave-caught-playing-dirty-trick-people-registering-vote-images/#mobile-menu
Post by: nichola on June 08, 2016, 19:40:15 PM
Post by: sadler on June 08, 2016, 19:43:08 PM
Post by: AOK on June 08, 2016, 19:50:20 PM
Post by: kevin3 on June 08, 2016, 20:24:13 PM
Yes, and Cameron and his cronies have a distinct lack of ambition.
Post by: nichola on June 08, 2016, 21:03:35 PM
I know a lot of people, more than one million, were unknowingly to them, recently removed from the electoral register so I'm guessing many of them will possibly have realised this which would explain the last minute dash to register now.
Post by: usedbustickets on June 09, 2016, 07:16:44 AM
Peter, you have deliberately misrepresented what I have said.
Nic I could never deliberately misrepresent you, I love and respect you too much to do that. I simply responded to the points you nade. BTW have you noticed that Jezza - recent former Brexiteer - still looks ill at ease when called upon to make the case for remain, he must regret the deal he done with Benn junior and the Blairites at the time of the last shadow reshuffle, when he settled on prioritising scrapping Trident as Labour's key policy, rather than campaigning on what he really believed about the EU.
Post by: nichola on June 09, 2016, 07:22:53 AM
Post by: usedbustickets on June 09, 2016, 07:29:12 AM
Post by: nichola on June 09, 2016, 08:41:35 AM
Post by: Colwyn on June 09, 2016, 09:26:10 AM
Post by: Colwyn on June 22, 2016, 16:07:32 PM
Post by: teetee on June 24, 2016, 06:34:57 AM