Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
Turkey Related Subjects => Turkey Discussion Forum (Not Calis specifically) => Topic started by: JohnF on November 24, 2015, 09:00:06 AM
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Several news agencies are reporting that Turkey has shot down an "unidentified" aircraft in Syria, close to the border at Hatay.
Not good.
JF
Edit: BBC now suggesting it was a Russian aircraft. Definitely not good.
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Just watching Sky, they are saying it was Russian too. Russia has confirmed it.
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Aren't they supposed to be on the same side? Turkey might live to regret this.
Not booked my flights for 2016 are not booked yet - not sure they will be if this escalates.
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Russians also say they can prove they only flew over Syria. Turkey saying they violated their airspace.
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Technically yes, they are on the same side - however, Russia has allied itself with Iran and both do not want to see Assad removed by "external forces". Turkey just wants Assad removed.
It looks like Turkey may be sending Putin a message...
JF
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It looks like Turkey may be sending Putin a message...
Most of us use email these days.
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The story keeps changing. The Turkish military say the Russian plane was over Turkish territory and was shot down by a Turkish warplane after ten warnings in five minutes. The Russians say it was over Syrian territory and was shot down from the ground - presumably by Daesh.
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Just posted on twitter-video of one dead pilot. Warning - Graphic content.
https://twitter.com/news_executive/status/669097377211527168
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I
Aren't they supposed to be on the same side? Turkey might live to regret this.
Not booked my flights for 2106 are not booked yet - not sure they will be if this escalates.
I know this is a serious topic Stoop but if the situation hasn't improved by 2106 then we are all in trouble!! Lol :)
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Russia has just advised it's citizens not to travel to Turkey Due to terrorism fears,
and speculation as to whether the Turkish Armed Forces or the President ordered
the shooting down. Could be some empty sun loungers next year.
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Yes, bad news for the many Russians who have property in Turkey, a few in the Calis area too.
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OK, now Russians won't be going to Turkey due to danger from Russian warplanes that don't know where they are, where will they go? Not Egypt I suppose.
A steep drop in oil prices have sent the ruble tumbling against the dollar and euro, raising the cost of foreign travel and cutting Russians' real wages by nearly 10 percent compared to 2014, according to February data from state statistics service Rosstat.
Travel to Europe has been one of the first luxuries to go. But surprisingly, the resorts of Turkey and Egypt stand to see business from Russia rise this year, as formerly spendthrift Russians trade down and choose cheap package holidays.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/where-russian-tourists-will-and-won-t-go-in-2015/517836.html (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/where-russian-tourists-will-and-won-t-go-in-2015/517836.html)
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Breaking news just reported by France 24 is that the two pilots were shot after they had ejected by Turkmen militia which is against the Geneva Convention A1. Apparently there is video footage (not shown) that shows this happening.
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Can't condone the actions of the Turkmen, but given the pounding they've taken from Russian bombs and missiles over the past few days, their reaction is hardly surprising:
"The deputy commander of a Turkmen brigade in Syria says his forces shot dead two pilots of the downed Russian jet as they descended with parachutes, says Reuters."
From: BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-34908469)
JF
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According to Putin...
Putin said Russian pilots and planes had in no way threatened Turkey, but had merely been carrying out their duty to fight Islamic State militants inside Syria.
It seems that could be a porky!
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Two pilots who auto-ejected themselves after a Russian jet was shot down by Turkish F-16’s on Nov. 24 near the Syrian border are alive and well and are in the hands of rebel groups in the area, according to security sources in Ankara.
The Turkish National Intelligence Organization (MiT) is in contact with the rebel groups to hand over the pilots alive to Turkey, the sources said.
And on who Russia were fighting... not ISIS!
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkmens-clash-with-russia-backed-al-assad-forces-in-northwest-syria-.aspx?PageID=238&NID=91575&NewsCatID=352
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Two pilots who auto-ejected themselves after a Russian jet was shot down by Turkish F-16’s on Nov. 24 near the Syrian border are alive and well and are in the hands of rebel groups in the area, according to security sources in Ankara.
The Turkish National Intelligence Organization (MiT) is in contact with the rebel groups to hand over the pilots alive to Turkey, the sources said.
And on who Russia were fighting... not ISIS!
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkmens-clash-with-russia-backed-al-assad-forces-in-northwest-syria-.aspx?PageID=238&NID=91575&NewsCatID=352
I am shocked to hear that Russia has not been playing its part in the war against ISIS, but then again neither has Turkey...each having their own agenda, whiklst pretending to stand alongside the other nations in the fight. And to think Cameron is going to come and ask the UK Parliament to get involved in this mess.
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OK, now Russians won't be going to Turkey due to danger from Russian warplanes that don't know where they are, where will they go? Not Egypt I suppose.
A steep drop in oil prices have sent the ruble tumbling against the dollar and euro, raising the cost of foreign travel and cutting Russians' real wages by nearly 10 percent compared to 2014, according to February data from state statistics service Rosstat.
Travel to Europe has been one of the first luxuries to go. But surprisingly, the resorts of Turkey and Egypt stand to see business from Russia rise this year, as formerly spendthrift Russians trade down and choose cheap package holidays.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/where-russian-tourists-will-and-won-t-go-in-2015/517836.html (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/where-russian-tourists-will-and-won-t-go-in-2015/517836.html)
It appears it might have been a stray Spanish fighter jet to blame for the shooting. Or perhaps Portugese. Or Greece? Nah, not Greece.
Powerful stuff tourism - make or break a country.
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I'm surprised Turkey haven't blamed it on Ukrainian rebels yet.
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I posted a link further up showing one dead pilot. So are Ankara telling porkies? Never!
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Latest from the BBC:
Breaking off military contacts with Turkey, Russia has announced fighter jets will now escort its bombers during air strikes over Syria, and Moscow is sending out its most anti-aircraft missile system, the S-400.
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"Davutoglu told his party's lawmakers on Wednesday that Turkey didn't know the nationality of the plane that was brought down on Tuesday until Moscow announced it was Russian."
What? They are telling us that they had time to give out ten warnings yet after all that they had no idea who's jet it was? So they shot it down anyway!
I find that very worrying if true.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/072308dda5d84180bd2f1e1028853772/latest-russia-says-1-downed-pilot-held-syrian-army
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They were making a point. They knew full well what nationality the aircraft was.
JF
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Does anybody really still think it is a good idea for the UK to get involved after this latest debacle?
France is there (look where that got them), Russia is there, Turkey is there, the US, Israel (who knows what they are up to), Iran is involved. And they all have their own agendas that in most cases are more important to them than taking out ISIS. It's a flipping minefield!
Really! What good will it do for the UK to get involved?
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France is there (look where that got them)
It's actually the second time the French have "been there". A bit of me wonders if the attacks in Paris were also a bit symbolic, given that they could have easily carried out the same style of attack in Brussels.
The French occupied Syria from the early twenties right up till 1946 and it wasn't a happy occupation for many, and I include the French in that. There were several years of revolt resulting in thousands of casualties on both sides.
Anyway, it was just a thought...
JF
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Last month the UK Government recorded its highest October deficit for 6 years. In the first half of the year the Chancellor had already borrowed £54.2billion out of his 12 month target of 69.5. He is at the moment up in the Commons on his hind legs announcing massive spending cuts across the board (except for pensioners and the NHS). What better time to throw a few billion pounds at intervening in a complex civil war, of which we have little or no understanding, and is probably a proxy war for fundamental hostility between Sunni and Shiite nations across the Middle East, joining with unreliable partners holding conflicting interests?
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Just seen this posted on the Trip Advisior forum by MorselAliet ( it's their first, and probably last, post ):
Greetings from Dresden, Germany. For me, my family and friends since now muslim Turkey is done. Totally done, I say! Last week fans of Turkey's national soccer team booed and cried out 'allahu akbar' during the moment of silence to honor the victims of Paris attack. Yesterday Turkish F-16 shot down the Russian jet that been delivering strikes against IS terrorists. One questions: since Turkey has openly demonstrated to the whole world on which side it stands in war on terrorism, why Turkey is still a member of NATO? Since yesterday Islamic State of Turkey is a branch of IS! FACT! Hope European tourists that are currently staying in Turkish seashores still have some time to leave Turkey before Erdogan will order to execute all infidels.
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I've just watched the chancellors speech and didn't notice any hind legs. or massive spending cuts across the board.
Perhaps I was watching the wrong channel.
One of the Russian pilots, now back at his airbase in Syria, claims that they did not receive any warnings from Turkey.
Putin is saying Reg ordered the shooting down because they were bombing the pipelines that ISIL were using to supply
oil to Turkey. In any conflict the first casualty is always the truth. Putin is also saying he will pass on information about
Turkey's "dealings".?
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What? They are telling us that they had time to give out ten warnings yet after all that they had no idea who's jet it was? So they shot it down anyway!
I find that very worrying if true.
Putin doesn't believe it to be true. Russia is calling the incident "planned provocation". It is also suggesting Turkey doesn't like it bombing oil pipelines delivering illegal oil to Turkey. Long way away from saying the plane was shot down by ground forces in Syria.
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I read that the warnings were given in the English language, what if the pilots do not speak English?
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Isn't English the language of all pilots?
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Apparently not.
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So Turkey has released recordings of the warnings they issued to the Russian bomber. How do we know that these recording - a la Reg instructing the idiot son to move the Euro shoe boxes - are not a shameless and treacherous "montage"?
Mind you when it comes to it, whose evidence are you going to prefer on this incident, Putin or Reg? On both's record I'd suggest neither....
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I read that the warnings were given in the English language, what if the pilots do not speak English?
As Scunner says, it is the international requirement that all pilots speak English, so that cannot be an excuse.
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I read that the warnings were given in the English language, what if the pilots do not speak English?
As Scunner says, it is the international requirement that all pilots speak English, so that cannot be an excuse.
It's a requirement for commercial pilots flying international routes, but does it also apply to military pilots ?
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I've just read somewhere that the recordings don't contain a threat and there is is no proof
of the dates they were recorded. I don't speak much Turkish so I don't know.
But how do you issue 10 warnings in 5 minutes to an aircraft that is allegedly in your air
space for 17 seconds.?
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Isn't English the language of all pilots?
Nope. Only those working within civil aviation - proficiency levels determined by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).
In many countries, military pilots have no English language requirements, although most non English speaking countries encourage their pilots to reach ICAO Level 4 which is usually enough to communicate with foreign ATC.
The problems start to arise when you get two non native English speakers communicating in English - if one has a poor level of English it is very easy for misunderstandings to arise, and that's putting it mildly!
JF
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So why not warn him in Russian? Oh yeah, they didn't know what nationality the plane was...
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well it seems the Russians only understand one language?
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And so the repercussions begin
Noting that Turkey had made exports to Russia in many fields from ready-made textiles to food and machinery, Şener said: “Around 36,000 trucks carry goods from Turkey to Russia a year. Some 100-150 trucks are now being kept waiting at Russia’s borders. We face an uncertain situation here. No explanation has been made about the trucks which are on their way to Russia though Georgia, although the trucks are apparently being subjected to a “full examination” on their way to Russia via Ukraine. This means all goods in the trucks will be unloaded and examined in detail at the Russia border, but such procedures can take days.”
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkish-trucks-face-hurdles-at-russias-customs-.aspx?pageID=238&nID=91702&NewsCatID=345
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Both countries would suffer if they did not manage to work out a solution to the situation in which they find themselves.
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My thoughts are what situation would Britain find itself in if it started bombing Syria?
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And so the repercussions begin
...and continue
Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said on Friday that Moscow has decided to suspend visa-free travel with Turkey.
Todays Zaman (http://www.todayszaman.com/diplomacy_lavrov-russia-to-suspend-visa-free-regime-with-turkey-on-jan-1_405488.html)
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How pleased am I that I saw the writing on the wall a couple of years ago! ;D
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And if the government in Moscow don't stop the Russian people holidaying in Turkey, the tourists seem pretty much decided against it anyway...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNmUTgovWmA
Not good
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It would be nice to hear the views of Turkish members and their feelings on the events unfolding.
Two huge ego's have collided, who will blink first.? I think Reg. President Putrid is hugely popular
at home, Reg isn't.
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Its not only Russians who will stay away... I feel many from the UK will not be visiting in 2016, regulars will still visit, but prospective holiday makers will choose different locations , adding that this is right smack in the middle of the booking months ... Antalya area will miss the Russians ( and Russian numbers were down in 2015) and I think Mugla area will see a downturn in visiting Brits :-( these recent events, and it seems a growing anti islamic feeling with the UK public ...... have cast a much bigger shadow over Turkey and its tourism than `Midnight Express` `Bird Flu outbreak` 2010 earthquake` and other past headlines .
Yesterday` Daily Mirror `on line article reads that some Russian political nutter suggested to Putin`s aids, to ( in the Daily Mirror`s words ) Nuke Istanbul and kill 9 million turks as payback
a tongue in cheek comment it might have been, But gutter press will make a meal of comments like that and put into print for thousands to read in the UK is not going to help turkish tourism
Its surely going to be a bumpy ride 2016 for Turkey economically and may decimate a chunk of tourism :-(
However, come what may, as long as we can get on a plane in February, we will be back to our place over there in Hisaronu for 8 months next year again .we are in it for the long haul whatever happens , warts and all :-)
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President Putrid is hugely popular at home, Reg isn't.
Putin and Erdogan have remarkably similar careers. Both grew from a base of a hard core of ideological supporters but expanded their support by years of political stability and economic growth that showed itself in steadily increasing living standards for the majority of the population. They both share "The Nation's Strong Man" image. But both have counties experiencing declining economic performance over the last few years, leading to less personal prosperity and have found their support become weaker, have resorted to dodgy elections and, finally, stoking feelings of the nation under threat from hostile forces to back their rule. Hence, each is happy to divert public attention from issues at home by focusing on posturing against an alleged enemy of their nation.
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P.S. Three years ago a pound would have bought you 50 rubles; now you would get 100. That means the Russian currency has done even worse than Turkey's. That takes some doing! No wonder Russian tourists have been taking fewer foreign holidays and spending less.
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Putin is now blaming America for the downing of the Russian plane. !!
http://nypost.com/2015/11/27/putin-blames-us-for-shooting-down-russian-plane/
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Has RTE replied by blaming the "Interest Rate Lobby" using telekinetic powers?
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Putin and Erdogan will be at meetings held in Paris soon and I do hope that they work out an end to any more animosity over the shooting down incident. By falling out they are giving ISIS just what they want. Turkey and Russia are not booming financially and it is the small people who suffer most when there is a recession, children, women and elderly people. Look at what is happening in Greece to the women there. Whoever was in the wrong it is not going bring progress by prolonging the animosity between neighbours.
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Putin will not have any contact with Erdogan until he makes an apology, and Putin has just signed off
a list of sanctions, which are said to include banning all charter flights to Turkey and a ban on employing
Turkish nationals. Over to you Reg.!!
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"But if anyone thinks that having committed this awful war crime, the murder of our people, that they are going to get away with some measures concerning their tomatoes or some limits on construction and other sectors, they are sorely mistaken." Putin said today!
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/Default.aspx?pageID=238&nID=92017&NewsCatID=353
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More sabre rattling from Russia. One of their frigates opened rifle fire on a Turkish fishing boat in the Aegean that was a "threat" to the Russian warship! That's about the limit of what Russia can do. What more? Attack a NATO country? Even Putin isn't that gung-ho!
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Even Putin isn't that gung-ho!
Let's hope not.
(https://garyborjesson.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/fingerbutton.jpg?w=640)
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BBC are reporting a close thing spat between a Turkish fishing boat and a Russian warship in the Aegean. Shot across the bow of the Turkish boat by the Russians .... doesn't look like this situation between Reg and Vlad is going to cool down any time soon.
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BBC are reporting a close thing spat between a Turkish fishing boat and a Russian warship in the Aegean. Shot across the bow of the Turkish boat by the Russians
I'm surprised Colwyn didn't mention this :D
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May be down to the two hour time difference ;)
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May be down to the two hour time difference ;)
Is that between London and Bristol? I thought Brunel sorted out those differences.
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"The Turks decided to lick the Americans in a certain place" (Putin, today). He does have a certain way with words, doesn't he?
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8 months later Erdogan finally says sorry.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkeys-erdogan-says-sorry-over-downed-russian-jet.aspx?pageID=238&nID=100969&NewsCatID=510
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And after 6 years makes friends with Israel.
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