Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
General Topics => The Debating Chamber => Topic started by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 11:31:04 AM
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Yesterday when it was thought that 20 refugees where found dead in a truck in Austria. I was disgusted to read comments on social media etc. to the effect that "good it is 20 less" now today I see on The news that it was infact 71.. The van was discovered with blood and bodily fluids leaking from the back after they suffocated to death.. 8 are women and 4 are children.... I for one am not ashamed to say that I feel truly sorry for them... Surely people can't be so heartless as to have no sympathy whatsoever for these Syrians?? I don't pretend to know what the answer to all these desperate people is but I do have sympathy for them.
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Well said Mercury! They deserve our compassion. It's not their fault they see Britain as a safe place to bring their families.
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https://www.facebook.com/pages/DoumaRevolution/111632495584341
It is all in Arabic but some of the images are of " Hell on Earth"
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Somebody edit the thread title please.
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Edited
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Thanks. went back to it but It was too late. Makes terrible reading Apollo...
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If the "Schengen Agreement" had never been thought of, where would all of these persons have gone to ?? There would have been NO open borders, and ALL of them would be deemed to be illegal immigrants, with absolutely no status . It is NOT up to Britain to find a solution to the problem, as Britain refused to sign the "Schengen Agreement". Britain is FULL, go somewhere else, or go home !!
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Britain is FULL, go somewhere else, or go home !!
In actual fact, many of those from Libya, Syria, Iraq etc don't have homes to go to - and if the UK had maybe given more thought when it was (is) propping up the various regimes over the years these folks wouldn't be leaving their respective countries in droves.
The liability for many of the refugees we see in the media lies squarely at the UK's door - along with a few other nations.
JF
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And the vast majority of these refugees DO go somewhere else. They go to Germany, Sweden and some to Norway. It is only those paranoid Brits amongst us, stoked by the UKIP nutters, who suppose they are all coming here.
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http://www.migranttales.net/facebook-dear-little-girl-at-sea/
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The " Nimby" squad are up in arms again! But hey, let's just wait until WE, the TRUE Brit, become the minority in our own country, whether that be ethnic, religious, cultural or otherwise !! I stand by what I say, and Colwyn, I AM a Member if the U.K.I.P. party, not paranoid, and definitely NOT a nutter , thank you very much !!!!
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I was aware of you being the first. I haven't made up my mind yet about the second and third.
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Couldn't agree more John... If Blair and Bush hadn't stuck their oars in under false pretences these problems would be half of what they are now...
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I was aware of you being the first. I haven't made up my mind yet about the second and third.
So strange how ones perception of a person can be totally changed by one stupid remark from that person. Goodbye Colwyn .
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And just exactly what and who is a "true Brit"? Most people only need to go back a generation or two to discover their ancestors aren't British born! And if you want to take it back further then the true Brits are in fact the Welsh after Celtic Britain underwent a form of ethnic cleansing by Anglo-Saxons invaders following the Roman withdrawal in the fifth century.
Oh, and isn't this a topic about the countless and tragic deaths of refugee men, women and children who were only doing what anyone of us would do in the same situation and the heartless reaction to this sad state of affairs on social media!
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I agree Nichola. Time to stop viewing these human beings as an inconvenience.
There by the grace of God and all that.
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I feel so sorry for these desperate people have been taken advantage of by evil people traffickers. It is a terrible situation the way these migrants are suffering and dying when all they want is a better life for themselves and their families.
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I can't imagine a more awful way to die, and watching everyone around you dying and knowing you will soon join them. But I do wonder if news of this gets back to the areas they are fleeing. I do realise they are desperate to leave and desperate people will take huge risks - but just maybe if they heard how many people are dying in trucks or drowning it might make them think twice.
If they all believe that everyone who raises a King's ransom to get on one of these journeys ends up in UK or Germany and is now enjoying a wonderful life, they won't be thinking twice about trying to join them.
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The lines are becoming blurred for many people evident by the unsympathetic attitude shown by some.
The tragedies in those links are not showing "economic migrants" to be considered someone else's problem and ignored. They are suffering in an un-imagineable way and of course they are OUR problem. Ordinary men, women and children in desperate need of help. It doesn't matter why, who, what caused it - they are people just like you and me.
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Well lucky us eh, Gordon?
We're alright, Jack/Jacques/Joseph/Yusef so go back to the shattered land WE created for you and dig some more of your babies out of the rubble.
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I was aware of you being the first. I haven't made up my mind yet about the second and third.
So strange how ones perception of a person can be totally changed by one stupid remark from that person. Goodbye Colwyn .
Oh the irony...
JF
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The " Nimby" squad are up in arms again! But hey, let's just wait until WE, the TRUE Brit, become the minority in our own country, whether that be ethnic, religious, cultural or otherwise !! I stand by what I say, and Colwyn, I AM a Member if the U.K.I.P. party, not paranoid, and definitely NOT a nutter , thank you very much !!!!
Here's one for you Gordon. Don't need to say much, the image speaks for itself... sadly.
(http://cdncms.todayszaman.com/todayszaman/2015/09/02/227878.jpg)
JF
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..and apart from sniping at personal posts on CBF John, what are you doing to help any of them?
Thousands of images from natural and man - made horrors from around the world are freely available.
Patriotism need not be nationalistic, right wing or fascist.
This, amongst many other man - made disasters, can hardly be put at the feet of an individual for his political viewpoint.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"
Selecting small segments of a larger post and using them as weapons seems somewhat cowardly.
What's your solution?
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..and apart from sniping at personal posts on CBF
Kettle, pot etc
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How could any right-minded individual not be affected by this heartbreaking picture? Rest in peace little one.
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..and apart from sniping at personal posts on CBF John, what are you doing to help any of them?
What I can, financially and politically. What about you?
Selecting small segments of a larger post and using them as weapons seems somewhat cowardly.
Yep, thats me - total keyboard warrior. Does however put me several levels above the average (or below average) internet troll.
What's your solution?
What a stupid question posed in such a provocative manner. However, if I did have a solution I'd be GenSec of UNHCR.
JF
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That's two topics with a very serious subject twisted to bitterness and aggression by the same person.
Please folks let's ignore the amateur troll in future (me included) and we'll delete his attempts at provocation and trolling instead.
Back to topic, it is simply awful to see this photo but if a photo could be a game changer then this one might be that photo.
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I sincerely hope so, it's been shared by so many today and hopefully will make even the most bigoted people stop and think.
Some of the comments under the online newspaper reports have been absolutely disgusting, but happy to say the majority are saying enough so enough.
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Back to topic, it is simply awful to see this photo but if a photo could be a game changer then this one might be that photo.
I sincerely hope so too - and yes KK, some of the online commentary has been beyond belief.
JF
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How said to see that lovely little boy in his really beautiful clothes and shoes, obviously, loved and looked after. The situation is now so desparate for this poor people.
I think it is time that some countries in the world got their Armies together and went in and stopped ISIS in their tracks.
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If only Jacqui, but unlikely
http://www.globalresearch.ca/how-the-us-can-stop-isis-without-setting-foot-in-syria/5473128#st_refDomain=m.facebook.com&st_refQuery=
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Off topic post removed from sensitive topic
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My thoughts are also with the Turkish Police officer :(
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Back to topic, it is simply awful to see this photo but if a photo could be a game changer then this one might be that photo.
This photo taken by Daniel Etter for the New York Times was also thought to be a likely game changer. It wasn't...
(http://s3.postimg.org/43lp8qivz/Daniel_Etter_for_the_New_York_Times.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/43lp8qivz/)
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My thoughts are also with the Turkish Police officer :(
Mine too
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For those whose heart does break when they see the pitiful images of dead innocents there are some things you can do.
This even includes a link to buy essential items on an Amazon wish list.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/5-practical-ways-you-can-help-refugees-trying-to-find-safety-in-europe-10482902.html
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My thoughts are also with the Turkish Police officer :(
Mine too
Aye. A close friend (and ex colleague) was one of the first deployed to Lockerbie... what he saw and had to deal with still affects him now, twenty five plus years later.
Forgive me for reminding folks of what we're looking at here...
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03426/refugee_01_3426825b.jpg)
JF
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I feel terribly for the plight of these refugees. I cannot imagine how bad things must be to decide to risk your childrens lives in such a way. There is one things that continues to puzzle me however. If the number one priority is to get themselves and their children to safety why on earth are so many protesting and insisting on leaving Hungary for the West? I understand they are refusing to claim asylum in places like Hungary, Greece etc. as they only want to go to Germany, Sweden, GB etc. Is it just me or does there seem to be more to this than simply asylum?
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I understand they are refusing to claim asylum in places like Hungary, Greece etc. as they only want to go to Germany, Sweden, GB etc.
From what I've read it to do with language and community. Many speak English and feel that the UK is somewhere they could integrate more easily - also, English is spoken far more in Germany and Sweden than in many of the baltic and eastern European countries. There are also established communities of prior refugees in both Germany and Sweden, many of the current refugees have friends and relatives there.
JF
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Yes JF I do understand that but what i dont get is that you would think they would be overwhelmed with relief and gratitude for being in a safe country. But no, they actually start protesting that they can't go to the EU country of their choice. One minute they are risking their childrens lives to flee tyranny and the next protesting at not going to a country that suits their language skills? It just doesn't ring true to me. There must be more to it.
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The fundamental question for me is when does a refugee become an economic migrant? For the sake of brevity here I will stick to those fleeing from Syria, although the principle equally applies to others coming from, for example, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan, and Somalia.
When those fleeing the war in Syria escaped to Turkey, Jordan or Lebanon they were genuine refugees seeking a safe haven, and they got it in all three of those countries. When they then decide to move on to other countries they then become - in my head - economic migrants. However those we now see making this step are not content to make an application for migration to other countries from the safe haven country, they CHOOSE to risk their own safety - and worst still their childrens - utilising all sorts of lawless methods, including the use and payment of criminal gangs, to bust their way into Europe and then on to their preferred 'target' state, usually Germany, Sweden, NL and if they have a chance the UK. And when they embark on this journey I am sorry to say, they lose all sympathy from me. Particularly when they choose, for example, to go to Europe instead of the Gulf States where they do speak the same language ... having said that the Saudis, UAE etc. have hardly been rolling out the red carpet for their fellow (islamic) arabs!!
And my heart goes out to the child, and others similarly lost in this rush to economic safety of Europe. As I have said before on other subjects involving children, I can only blame the stupid parents who would risk their children in this way.
Yes Europe should be helping these people in these war zones, or more particularly when they are refugees in neighbouring countries. However, let's not forget Europe is in large part one of the causes of the problem when it has supported war in these countries, supporting one evil side or the other, and often acting militarily, especially the UK ... STAND UP BLAIR/STRAW for Iraq..STAND UP CAMERCON/HAGUE for Libya, Syria leading to new despotic regime of one kind or another in Iraq, Syria, Eygpt, Libya or an equally bad or worst opposition such as ISIL. And this generally allows those neighbouring country's leaders like Reg to believe they can behave in a similar brutal manner.
I could go on, but I need to go and put a cold wet towel on my head, cos this whole bloody mess makes me so angry. Did none of our smart politicians with all their current knee jerk reactions not see this coming from a long, long way off??
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Seeing this child dead on the beach was awful, however, it is not Europes fault. The root cause is the greedy traffickers who take the money from these people and then don't care what happens to them. I heard this morning that the child, his 6 year old brother and his mothere were all drown. They had left the coast near Bodrum for Greece, which was only 10 miles away and could be seen from the beach.
It is time that Europe pulled out all the stops to find these evil traffickers and also, these innocent people should be warned just what will happen when they hand over their money.
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I too was deeply shocked and saddened at the images of that poor little boy. My thoughts go out to them and their poor father and the poor Policeman who will probably have nightmares for months!! As the facts unfold what I have found more disturbing than anything is that they set off from Turkey where they weren't in any danger whatsoever. I guess their motive was for a better life in Europe but hang on a minute, who would risk their childrens lives to this desperate fashion to go from Turkey to Greece?? I seriously don't get it. Are the Turks telling them to move on or they will be sent back to Syria? I don't think this is the case so I am finding this harder and harder to comprehend.
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they set off from Turkey where they weren't in any danger whatsoever .... Are the Turks telling them to move on or they will be sent back to Syria? I don't think this is the case so I am finding this harder and harder to comprehend.
There are a large number of Syrian Kurds fleeing from ISIS terror which I believe this family were.. Erdogan doesn't want any more Kurds in Turkey. We have seen how Turkish police can behave on Erdogan's instruction.
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The fundamental question for me is when does a refugee become an economic migrant? For the sake of brevity here I will stick to those fleeing from Syria, although the principle equally applies to others coming from, for example, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan, and Somalia.
When those fleeing the war in Syria escaped to Turkey, Jordan or Lebanon they were genuine refugees seeking a safe haven, and they got it in all three of those countries.
Not so sure life in some of these camps could be considered a safe haven, especially those in Lebanon. The conditions in the Jordanian camps are pretty dire also, serious overcrowding, violence and often shortages of food. Turkey doesn't want them, so where do they go?
However, let's not forget Europe is in large part one of the causes of the problem when it has supported war in these countries, supporting one evil side or the other, and often acting militarily, especially the UK ... STAND UP BLAIR/STRAW for Iraq..STAND UP CAMERCON/HAGUE for Libya, Syria leading to new despotic regime of one kind or another in Iraq, Syria, Eygpt, Libya or an equally bad or worst opposition such as ISIL. And this generally allows those neighbouring country's leaders like Reg to believe they can behave in a similar brutal manner.
Cannot disagree with anything you've said there.
JF
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If you think that the UK ought to take more refugees from Syria you might consider signing this petition to Parliament (for UK citizens or residents).
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/105991
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Why keep it to Syrian refugees, why not Afghanistan, Somalian, Pakistani, Libyan and Iraqi too, we've been directly involved in recent wars/military conflicts in all these places too? But then why keep it to the diaspora of those particular nations, why not extend it to any nation we have had a war in or over, nah sod it let's take anyone who claims to be a refugee. My only caveat to that is that they can only come in if they take the jobs, housing, school places, social services and health services - all increasingly rare commodities for working class people these days - of politicians, misguided bleeding heart liberals and of course their families too. And then 'dump' them all in select neighbourhoods, let's see Islington (former working class borough now home of the enlightened chattering classes, Yvette Coopers Constituency, Notting Hill to think of a few. You can bet your life some of those suggesting this would not be so keen to do so then.
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There has been a huge upsurge of sympathy for the "refugees" who have fled Syria and other areas of conflict.
These people have been in the "fortunate" position of being able to pay the evil traffickers to try and escape.
But what about the poor people in Syria who do not have that option.
So when "we" are taking the moral high ground regarding those on Europe's borders lets not forget those who cannot flee such conflicts.
We need to help them too. Maybe more so.
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I defy anyone who hasn’t lived this situation to presume to know what they would or wouldn’t do or what risks they would be prepared to take in these exact same circumstances.
It’s almost impossible to imagine what life is like living among the dead and rubble of a war torn country with bombs exploding and gun fire going on all around you.
The neighbouring countries that do their best to accommodate 1.9 million refugees in Turkey alone, another with more than 600,000 in Jordan and 1 million to Lebanon – a country whose population is just 4 million are doing so in conditions that are becoming unsustainable. Conditions are strained and reaching breaking point.
As aid has started to dry up from governments and charitable giving there is less and less food for increasing numbers of people. Seven hundred thousand children in Lebanon and Turkey don’t receive any schooling and many work for a few dollars a day.
How long would you wait in hope for salvation or an end to the Syrian conflict in a tent in the middle of a camp with few facilities watching your children grow up living effectively in conditions akin to or worse than a prison! One week, one month, one year, FOUR years...
A Turkish refugee camp
(http://s30.postimg.org/60tcz22yl/syria_camp.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/60tcz22yl/)
A refugee camp in Jordan
(http://s11.postimg.org/4sw7q0lan/jordan_refugee_camp.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/4sw7q0lan/)
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What is needed is a solution.
Isn’t it is well past the time that the UN stepped in and set up reception centres and coordinated the relocation of refuges in a planned and humane way. And as for deciding who takes who and how many I would start with those countries that have supplied and gained from the selling of arms to Syria since 2011 and match them $ for $.
(http://s4.postimg.org/ufa3pt7ex/refugeesandweapons.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ufa3pt7ex/)
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Why would any of the refugees want to go to Saudi Arabia ? They're financing ISIS !
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Not the only country financing ISIS either...
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Why would any of the refugees want to go to Saudi Arabia ?
I think the question is more why haven't Saudi Arabia taken in more refugees? Figures quoted by their UNHCR representative state that SA has allowed over half a million refugees to enter their kingdom has to be taken with a rather large pinch of salt.
In fact, the number of refugees taken in by all of the rich gulf states (Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, Bahrain etc) could probably fit in a (large) dolmus. The Kuwaitis especially appear to having short fecking memories...
JF
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Some answers here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34132308?SThisFB%3FSThisFB
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So much for all Muslims being brothers and sisters of Islam.
"The greatest way to live with honour in this world is to be what we pretend to be", Socrates.
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So the weekend brings news of a further 34 people killed crossing the sea from Turkey to Greece. Even sadder news was that this sad list included 10 children and 4 babies. I've said it before and I'll say it again, why are these stupid parents being allowed to risk the lives of these innocents? Some may not like it but if they have survived the parents should at the very least be charged with manslaughter, along with murder charges for those criminal people traffickers that these parents have paid to get them across.
And do not get me started on the bar***rds, both political and non political, who support - no encourage - this life threatening behaviour, waving their 'refugees' (please read economic migrants) welcome here' banners, without regard for the consequences either for the 'migrants' themselves or their own people who will have to deal with the problems handling such numbers in a short time period will bring. >:( >:(
Having said that it looks like the 'big hearted' Austrians and Germans are back peddling on their commitments on their migrants welcome statements of last week, by closing borders etc. Probably because in the last week someone has been explaining to the German political class how difficult and expensive this will be for Germany/Austria (soon to be Sweden as well methinks) to deliver on. Angela M is set to start to bully and crack the big German economic whip amongst other Euro leaders for them to 'take their share'..... much like she did with Greece...even I am beginning to see the dangers of a German dominated EU.
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Apparently France has suspended their Honorary Consul in Bodrum after she was exposed as a supplier of rafts and rubber dinghys to refugees / migrants.
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Yes. Her defence was " Well if I didn't sell them the dinghy's and life jackets someone else would have, "
Makes you wonder what else she has done in her " Embassy " role to earn a quick buck.
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Still the mass migration madness continues. Yesterday, off the Turkish coast, in one incident 22 people were drowned including another four innocent children, and in another incident 2 people were drowned. Never mind what is also happening off the coasts Libya, Tunisia and Morroco as people try to break their way into Europe.
Am I the only person on CBF outraged by this madness? deaths of innocent children and desperate adults and the political, social and economic problems being caused in Europe as a result? Where are the advocates now of the throw open the doors and all are welcome? Did they not see this coming and getting worst as they encouraged this dangerous behaviour? Well come on speak up! Or are you now going quiet on the whole thing or back peddling now as fast as some of the former advocates from the European political classes?
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Am I the only person on CBF outraged by this madness?
No. Nor are you (I hope) the only one saddened by it at the same time.
Where are the advocates now of the throw open the doors and all are welcome?
I'm not sure anyone here has suggested that we throw open the doors. What is needed, as Nichola said a few posts earlier, is a solution.
I don't think anyone can disagree over the culpability of the UK, US and other western nations in respect of how they picked and chose various regimes to support depending on which way the wind blew - or the price of oil went. As a result we now have parts of the middle east and north Africa in turmoil and a lot of folks deciding that the (human) cost of fleeing is lesser to remaining.
Whether that solution starts with the countries folks are fleeing from, or somewhere else, one has to be found. Maybe try to show folks that the west isn't the garden of roses many portray it as - I don't know the answer.
I tried to embed this video, but the beeb wont let me for some reason. It's one young Syrian mans take on being a refugee in Sweden.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-33975008
JF
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Thanks John, at least there is one person out there reading and responding. However, I have taken the precaution of launching a new dedicated thread on the subject, to see if that generates any more debate!!
I had a look at the video, sorry to say that it looked like a bit of free publicity from the BBC for a wanna-be comedian choosing a subject matter where he could score maximum impact. You know like the BBC do on a grander scale with Lloyd-Webber (and his mate Cameron Macintosh) using the BBC for publicity for his/their next money spinner reprieved West End musical! Any way back to the less than serious video, I find it hard to believe that he didn't find a Swede who was not in favour of mass migration
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The video was a bit of fun, not to be taken seriously. It made me laugh, I thought I'd share :)
JF
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My view is that the Syrian refugees belong in Syria. Their President's response to their calls for a democratic system
has been to slaughter them by any means possible, aided and financed by Putin and the Iranians. Although I am not
a fan of interfering in other peoples countries I believe that if the US and the UK had gone ahead and lobbed a couple
of dozen cruise missiles on Assad's favorite assets he would have got around the table and negotiated a new system.
Milliband agreed with Camerons plan but pulled out at the last minute to score cheap political points. Since then
hundreds of thousands of Syrian people have been slaughtered and not a word of an alternative way of saving them
from Milliband, or anyone else for that matter, everyone has stood by.
Then the tragic image of a little boys dead body was flashed around the world, and suddenly the world developed a
conscience and the brainless prats in the EU decided to move Syria into Europe. Much easier than getting rid of the
b##tard that has driven the survivors out of their own country. And i'm fairly sure the worst is yet to come.
In this digital age the mobiles are buzzing and poorer populations can see the floodgates have been kicked down.