Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum

General Topics => The Debating Chamber => Topic started by: villain on October 24, 2016, 12:08:51 PM

Title: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 24, 2016, 12:08:51 PM
Given what you now know compared to what you knew on June 23rd, would you have changed your vote?

I voted Remain and would still do so.


Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 24, 2016, 17:32:46 PM


  I voted leave then and would vote leave now. Can't wait to " consciously uncouple " from the Brussels Dictacrats "   ;D
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Anne on October 24, 2016, 23:04:50 PM
My vote is also unchanged.
Voted to leave and I still think that is the way forward for us.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 25, 2016, 10:47:46 AM
Must say I'm surprised. Just about all the fallout from the referendum has been negative. None of the Leave campaigns promises have come to fruition, the pound has taken a battering, inflation is on its way, the government appear to be in disarray, if we leave the single market there'll be no trade deals in place and even the leavers can't agree what "Brexit" looks like.

Personally, I'm very scared.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Jacqui Harvey on October 25, 2016, 11:31:07 AM
Goodness knows how we managed before we joined the E.U.   I am not worried at all.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on October 25, 2016, 12:01:07 PM
Personally, I'm very scared.
I don't think it is quite as bad as that, Villain. Certainly the decision will do serious long-term damage to the UK economy and has already trashed the £. However, I would stop short of saying it is a disaster. We maybe able to stage some sort of recovery well into the future (just not in my lifetime). Perhaps I'm just a wide-eyed optimist!
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on October 25, 2016, 12:20:17 PM
Must say I'm surprised.

You shouldn't be. 

Bear in mind that the member demographics of CBF are weighted towards England and Wales, with a lesser number of members from Scotland and in the vote, Scotland and Northern Ireland voted heavily in favour of remain and England and Wales the opposite.

Young people also voted in favour of remaining, 75% of 18-24yr olds and in the slightly older bracket, 56% of 25-49yr olds also voted to remain.  Those who are 50-64yrs old voted to leave with only 44% voting to remain and the over 65's voted even more heavily to leave, only 39% of those wishing to remain.

I'm not going to say that the majority of CBF members are old farts, but I'd hazard a guess that most fall in to the latter two age brackets.

Ironically, it would appear that the Remain campaigns forecast regarding the economy if we voted to leave, as in plummeting sterling, inflation on the up and a very shaky economy for the foreseeable future have been a lot more accurate than the Leave campaigns promises of extra funding for the NHS, reduction of immigration etc etc.

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: strange on October 25, 2016, 13:41:35 PM
Surely the extra funding for the NHS, and the rest of the benefits, can't happen until we actually LEAVE.
That's some time away isn't it?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on October 25, 2016, 13:43:01 PM
I think most Leave campaigners have conceded that the £350Bn to the NHS was nonsense.

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: strange on October 25, 2016, 13:53:37 PM
wasn't specific on an amount, I was just saying that the not paying 350bn to Brussels we'd have it to go somewhere, but that won't happen until we actually leave.
People expected it instantly
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on October 25, 2016, 13:58:50 PM
Since we never paid £350m a week to the EU in the first place it is rather pointless arguing about what we are going to do with this imaginary money. Unless we bet it on a unicorn winning the 2017 Grand National.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 25, 2016, 14:39:54 PM
So what form of Brexit would the Brexiters like?

Are the Brexiters prepared to pay into the EU coffers almost the same as we have been doing for access to the single market (probably with some minor compromise about freedom of movement attached), or perhaps a more "hard" exit with no trade deals in place? Bearing in mind option 2 would probably see our rather important  car and banking  industries (to name two) scuttle off to the EU in a flash.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 25, 2016, 16:12:14 PM


  Osbourne, Cameron, Carney, Le Garde, Obama, et al should be prosecuted for their claims and forecast's.

  As of lunchtime today nobody has fallen off the edge of the world. Anyone who thinks the Brussels commissioners

  are fit to rule Europe and defend it with their grand vision of an EU dads army should seek treatment.      ;)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on October 25, 2016, 16:29:56 PM
Personally, I'm very scared.
I don't think it is quite as bad as that, Villain. Certainly the decision will do serious long-term damage to the UK economy and has already trashed the £. However, I would stop short of saying it is a disaster. We maybe able to stage some sort of recovery well into the future (just not in my lifetime). Perhaps I'm just a wide-eyed optimist!

So what long term damage will it do to our economy? OK the pound has taken a battering (which has helped exports just a little  ;)) but once the Euro is allowed to go belly up (which it will) then it will more than likely bounce back.

The only thing the remainers got correct with their scare stories is the pound.

OK inflation may rise short term but that's due to the falling pound and to be honest a little bit of inflation will go down quite well for those with money invested. Negative inflation and negative interest rates were a real risk before Brexit.

I wanted out and am still for out - nothing that has happened so far has changed my opinion and the falling pound, even though it has cost me money on my hols, is one risk I am prepared to take to rid us of the EU.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on October 25, 2016, 16:32:15 PM
Must say I'm surprised. Just about all the fallout from the referendum has been negative. None of the Leave campaigns promises have come to fruition, the pound has taken a battering, inflation is on its way, the government appear to be in disarray, if we leave the single market there'll be no trade deals in place and even the leavers can't agree what "Brexit" looks like.

Personally, I'm very scared.

The only negative stories are coming from the Remain camp and we will not have any trade deals in place (officially) until we action Article 50 - otherwise we risk being sued by the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 25, 2016, 17:34:36 PM
OK. Assume we go for a soft brexit.  We will continue as we have been doing,  paying for access to the Single Market,  effectively still bound by EU rules,  but have no say over shaping the EU in the future (e.g. Norway). Alternatively,  a Hard exit scenario would lead the foreign owned car industry relocating to the EU,  as well as the vast majority of Banking jobs. At the point of exit from the EU,   we would not have any trade deals in place. How anyone thinks that'll do UK PLC any good is simply beyond me.

The referendum was a simple lie vs a complicated truth.

Hands up anyone who thinks the government has a clue what to do with this mess? They are constantly backtracking and contradicting themselves.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on October 25, 2016, 17:43:14 PM
Hands up anyone who thinks the government has a clue what to do with this mess? They are constantly backtracking and contradicting themselves.
But the government has put the Three Wise Men in charge - Boris Johnson, David Davis and Liam Fox. Surely you have faith in them? [If you reply, please remember this is a family forum!]
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 25, 2016, 18:17:59 PM
I'll try again. Exactly what sort of brexit were the brexiters wanting? Hard, Soft, Squidgy?

As for "well apart from the £ tanking, I haven't noticed anything" - we're still in the EU for the time being! The effects of inflation will follow shortly,  the effects of falling foreign investment (and indeed disinvestment) a bit later, and later still, if you give up access to what is the world's most lucrative and most free of free trade zones with no immediate alternative you'll get a return to the RED TAPE of customs checks and tariffs (I thought you were ditching the red tape - this Brave New World looks to be, well, a bit more red-tape-ish to me)

As for the EU's perceived lack of democracy. How about ushering in an un-elected leader whose party only gained a small proportion of the electorate's vote to  conduct our county's future policy in secret and not allowing parliament a say in it? That'll show those pesky Europeans how to run an undemocratic show.

Finally, for the European Army issue, doesn't the UK have a veto on this?





Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 25, 2016, 19:25:24 PM

  Cameron promised us before the referendum that there were NO PLANS for an EU Army.

  villain, can you name any country or government that has experience in exercising brexit negotiations.?

  France has upcoming elections, where the far right could make many gains due the mass immigration problems.

  Germany has upcoming elections and Merkel could well be booted out. Italy, Portugal and Greece have dire money

  problems, and several other EU countries are refusing to accept the immigration quota's being imposed on them.

  When the UK funding finishes I think the EU project will collapse soon after. The UK joined The Common Market,

  but Brussels have morphed it into something far more sinister.

 
 
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 25, 2016, 19:58:01 PM
Cameron may not like an EU army,  but BoJo the clownis all for it I see.  Interesting that the way to stop this Army would simply to stay in the EU and veto it.  Now we're leaving,  it looks like there will be one anyway.

Last country to leave the EU was Greenland. The discussions were largely about fish. 48000 population and the exit process still took 3 years

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-05-10/what-lessons-can-the-uk-learn-from-greenland-leaving-the-eu/

...and now many there would like to be back in again.

So. I still haven't heard from a brexiter: hard or soft exit?

P. S.  Can you tell me more about these EU immigration quotas?

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 25, 2016, 20:16:51 PM



    www.telegraph.co.uk › News3 May 2016 - The European Commission will impose fines of hundreds of millions of ... per rejected refugee, in a bid to salvage his botched migration quota ...
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 25, 2016, 20:23:22 PM



    www.express.co.uk › News › World18 Jun 2016 - European Union quotas for the number of migrants each member state is ... The prime minister has taken an increasingly anti-immigrant stance ...
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 25, 2016, 20:25:32 PM



     www.euractiv.com/section/justice.../many-eu-countries-say-no-to-immigration-quotas/8 Jun 2015 - The European Commission has submitted a proposal to find a fairer way to admit and distribute asylum seekers in the EU. But it's up to the ...
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 25, 2016, 21:18:38 PM
So we've finally arrived at the real reason.  The 'I' word. 

What's your issue? Migrants from the EU,  economic migrants from outside the EU,  asylum seekers from troubled countries like Syria,  or all three?

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 25, 2016, 21:30:23 PM
...and still not a single comment from a Brexiter about whether they want it soft,  hard,  floppy or whatever?

What do you mean you haven't got a plan!? You lot broke it,  you now own it.

Shambles.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 25, 2016, 23:07:45 PM


  If you think the UK will sink jump ship. I'm staying in the wheelhouse and sailing for adventures new.

  onward's and upwards.Free of the EU shackles and the spiteful cretins in Brussels.  Cool Britannia.   :)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 25, 2016, 23:12:33 PM
I trust the UK to see sense.

Describe some of those EU shackles to us,  please.

Soft or hard,  or simply no clue?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 25, 2016, 23:46:57 PM



    How many more referendums would suit you.??
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 25, 2016, 23:54:18 PM
That's a bit rich,  coming from a side that had two goes to get the answer you wanted.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 26, 2016, 00:01:54 AM
Soft or hard brexit? Single Market? Customs Union? Migrants? Asylum Seekers?

I get the idea that not many Brexiters thought this through,  really.

The only 'spiteful cretins in Brussels'  were attending a fist fight between a couple of them the other week,  BTW.


Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 26, 2016, 00:08:46 AM


    I'll leave you to get over your loss, life is too short.    ;)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 26, 2016, 01:18:46 AM
Still clueless about the detail, I see. Why do Brexiters go all quiet on the subject of detail?

COME ON. Roll up! Roll up! Now you Brexiters have "taken back control", what do you want to do with it? None of you seem to either have an opinion, nor a clue! You should be all PM's, cos she's just like you.

Some of you (not all!) are xenophobic and want to "do something" in a very scary way with migrants/asylum seekers etc (look how the racists are newly emboldened and hate crime has spiked), some of you believe in the bendy bananas (http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/which-eu-law-are-you-looking-forward-to-losing/) stories. Some of you will want to have access to the single market, some of you want to leave completely, some people don't believe experts, some of you believed the £350m NHS bus double-lie. Some of you hate EU laws but can't seen to cite a single offending example, or get mixed up with the European Court of Human Rights "meddling"(nothing to do with EU).

Fact is, you all wanted something a bit different. Whichever form Brexit takes, only the minority of you will be happy. You want the Single Market? Well, then be prepared to 1. Pay the EU for access and, probably 2. Some form of Freedom of Movement. Some won't mind, some will. You want to end immigration? Well, you probably won't. Most immigration is actually non-EU already. Why do you think the will wasn't there to cut down non-EU immigration before? Could it be 1. You were being lied to (yes, again, you mugs) and 2. The UK probably does actually need these people?

You lot as a block just can't decide between yourselves what you want and most will carry on moaning regardless. You'll probably continue to blame the EU for your woes. It's easy to do that (more pesky foreigners) but it's actually your UK politician's fault. Their fault that we as a nation are so dependent on the banks (who WILL bugger off across La Manche at the first opportunity to chase the filthy lucre), it's also their policies that helped  decimate our manufacturing and promoted so much foreign ownership of what was left (Nissan, Toyota, Honda will also be buggering off in a hurry too). By the time we have exited the EU (2022?) and secured some trade deals with Norway  and Pakistan (2026?), will we still have anything left that we can make to export?

Asylum Seekers? There were 25000 in 2015 in total the UK, of which 2200 were from Syria. Sweden received 13000 applications from just Syrians in October of that year and 163000 of all nationalities in 2015 in total. Our gallant response? Pull the drawbridge up! (P.S. Lebanon, population 4m, has 1m Syrian refugees, Turkey has 2m+)

The UK is retreating into its shell. Small minded, navel-gazing Ignoreland. Details. Boring.

But hey-ho, Brexit in haste, Regrexit at your leisure. Enjoy your victory and good luck to the good ship HMS United Kingdom of England and Wales. (assuming Wales doesn't flee in the opposite direction like the other two will).

Finally The view from the US (http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/10/18/brexit-death-of-british-business/) There. It's not just me.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on October 26, 2016, 08:49:33 AM
If you think the UK will sink jump ship. I'm staying in the wheelhouse and sailing for adventures new. onward's and upwards.
Not quite got the grasp of this sea-faring lark, Kevin.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 26, 2016, 11:16:13 AM
Goodness knows how we managed before we joined the E.U.   I am not worried at all.

Actually...

(https://next-geebee.ft.com/image/v1/images/raw/http%3A%2F%2Fcom.ft.imagepublish.prod.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fccb503c8-370b-11e6-a780-b48ed7b6126f?source=next&fit=scale-down&width=600)

"The UK used to be the sick man of Europe. Its annual growth in prosperity improved from bottom of the league among the G7 leading economies before it joined the European Economic Community to top spot in the 43 years after 1973. This does not prove that becoming a member improved Britain’s international performance. It does, however, allow the Remain campaign to argue that membership did not prevent UK national renewal.

Alternative explanation
Economists from the Leave side would point out that the absolute growth rates were lower after 1973 than before and that the main reason for Britain’s improved performance was Margaret Thatcher’s reforms, not EU membership.

Assessment
Splitting correlation from causation is difficult. All countries’ growth slowed after the postwar surge petered out. But, given the dramatic improvement in Britain’s position, it is nearly impossible to argue that the EU stood in the way of Britain pulling up its socks. In the most detailed assessment to date, professor Nick Crafts of Warwick university, Britain’s leading economic historian, estimates that the EU directly raised UK prosperity by about 10 per cent, largely due to increased competition and better access to the single European market.

From that well known "pinko" pamphlet, the Financial Times (https://www.ft.com/content/0260242c-370b-11e6-9a05-82a9b15a8ee7)

Lots of other fun charts on that link, including:

(https://next-geebee.ft.com/image/v1/images/raw/http%3A%2F%2Fcom.ft.imagepublish.prod.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fd1c6407a-370b-11e6-a780-b48ed7b6126f?source=next&fit=scale-down&width=600)


...and...


(https://next-geebee.ft.com/image/v1/images/raw/http%3A%2F%2Fcom.ft.imagepublish.prod.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fcd8ef6dc-370b-11e6-a780-b48ed7b6126f?source=next&fit=scale-down&width=600)




As I said, Brexiters are really short on detail and really just haven't thought it through.

So, do you want a Soft or a Hard Brexit? Do you even KNOW what I'm talking about? Anyone?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on October 26, 2016, 11:20:53 AM
The three spivs Blair, Brown and Mandelson were all for the EU. That is three good reasons to leave.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on October 26, 2016, 11:36:14 AM
So far there are 31 people who say they voted to leave and would repeat the mistake if they had the chance. None of these 31 has come up with a single suggestion of what sort of Brexit they want. I suspect that they didn't know what they were voting for: only what they were voting against. Thus ... I think Villain has completely established his view.

But, perhaps we can move on. If the Leavers don't know what they want it is up to the rest of us to attempt some kind of damage limitation. Villain asks, as so many others do, whether we want a hard or soft Brexit. "Soft Brexit" implies that we come to some sort of accommodation that gives the UK privileged access to the Single Market (and not out in the cold, facing tariff walls). Trouble is ... what is the Single Market? Some people seem to think that it is that all member countries can freely sell their goods and services inside the EU. Unfortunately this is not what Single Market means inside the EU; it means a free market for the exchange of goods&services and capital and labour. You don't get one without the other two. Now, I'd happily settle for that but I can't imagine that Brexiteers will. So is entry to the Single Market and so a Soft Brexit realistically a possibility? Even if all of the EU countries accepted a deal with the UK (and how unlikely is that?) Brexiteers would almost certainly reject it anyway.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 26, 2016, 12:07:57 PM
The three spivs Blair, Brown and Mandelson were all for the EU. That is three good reasons to leave.

Putin, Trump, Nigel Fromage.

I win with a straight flush.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on October 26, 2016, 12:53:34 PM
The three spivs Blair, Brown and Mandelson were all for the EU. That is three good reasons to leave.

Putin, Trump, Nigel Fromage.

I win with a straight flush.
Good to see that the debate has moved on to serious, mature discussion.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stuart T on October 26, 2016, 20:06:34 PM
I've said it before - I didn't know enough to make a 100% certain decision.

The politicians are the ones to whom we pay the big bucks in order that they can make these decisions on behalf of the nation - for the short, medium and long term.

As for being one of Villain's "mugs" - maybe so, but there's millions of us.

Perhaps, if Cameron et al had emphasised the positives about remaining, rather than trying to scare us about the consequences of leaving, we would have felt more confident about staying in.

Scare tactics have never worked with "us" and probably never will. Must be the "island mentality".

We've never really been part of the European "whole" and probably never will.

It seems that trade and the free movement of people are now inseparable under EU membership.

EFTA - way back when, seemed pretty good to me at the time.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stuart T on October 26, 2016, 23:19:55 PM
Kevin 3 -

That's two of us.

In "British Bulldog" that's all it takes!

As you say - "onwards and upwards".

Cool Britannia - oh yeah.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on October 27, 2016, 01:49:23 AM
As I have mentioned here before I am a director of a small company that writes bespoke software for small financial institutions that do not have the wealth to run a major technology department. These institutions are based in the UK and in the EU. In the next 12 months major changes are being made to banking regulations that require institutions to produce more information on their risk portfolios.

At the start of 2016, we produced a detailed business plan as to how we would enhance our software to meet the new requirements. Our plans included a major cash investment that would have generated an additional 8 jobs. It may not sound many but it is around a 12% increase in our work force. In addition we were to introduce another 3 trainee positions. Initially the majority of the investment was to be internally generated from this year's profits and existing reserves. The major devaluation of sterling has seriously impacted on our cost base which is now impacting on the company's profits. Like many other companies we have a around a 3 month level of inventories which means it is only now that the full impact of replacement is being felt. Our major supplier is in the US and the 20% devaluation is hitting hard. We are a small company but major companies such as Caterpillar and Vauxhall are now expressing the same concerns. Vauxhall has estimated that in 6 months Credit is going to cost the company around £400m. It was hoping to break even but will report a £400m loss. I just wish people would come to understand that the UK is not a manufacturing nation. It is an assembly line. Most materials are imported and the fall in sterling will hit hard. Renault make the engines for Nissan that are assembled in Sunderland. Motor manufacturers have defined supply networks that are spread throughout the Globe.

We have a government that does not know it's backside from its elbow. Talking tough but do not have a clue what they are talking about. A cabinet that is totally split. The Tory party conference demonstrated they do not know where the hell we are going. Johnson writes an unpublished article setting out the advantages of staying in the EU. 3 months ago he was all in favour of staying in the single market now he wants to leave it. May gave a presentation to Goldman's stating the serious impact that leaving the single market. She must be bloody dizzy from going round in circles. She opposed the 3rd runway at Heathrow now she is all in favour of it.

I am sick of reading morons who all they can say is Brexit is Brexit. When asked to explain they run to the hills.Also the mail, express and telegraph readers who believe all the rubbish that is printed on those papers. The sensational headlines like a leading politician has said the EU will give us a free trade agreement. To find out he is some junior minister that has been sacked. If some so called expert comes forward and says the UK's growth will increase by 10% it is taken as brilliant news. When experts say that over the next 10 years growth will fall by 6% we get the Project Fear rubbish being spouted about.

We have Fox and Davis spouting all of these countries are lining up to give the UK trade deals. The US has said we are at the back of the queue. A statement that Clinton has endorsed. Australia has stated today that they will not commence negotiations until the UK has left. Any deal with Australia will have to include labour movement. The EU has not been able to conclude a trade deal with India because over the past 5 years there have been objections from the UK on skill transfers. Now Fox tells us a deal will be concluded in days. So labour movement will be acceptable. Trade deal with China so they can dump all their rubbish on us.

Inflation is on the rise and the BOE is forecasting it to be over 3% by the the end of 2017. There is already a downward push on wage inflation. So by the end of 2017 the poorest is society will be the worst off.

I wish people who go on about the undemocratic EU would actually read a proper newspaper or book on the structure. It is as democratic as the UK is. EU policy is formulated by the elected leaders of each country. This is then broken down into the constituent parts and each country has a minister to speak up for its interests. The laws and regulations are prepared by the Commission or as we would call them the civil service. The elected European parliament vote on them and they are agreed by the council of ministers before they are enforced.

Also this fallacy I hear about controlling our borders. What should be said is to let France and Ireland control the borders. This will never be accepted by the French and the Irish.

Let us control our own laws. Too much regulation from the EU. You then ask for examples and not one law can be identified. The vast majority of workers rights were as a result of the EU.

All of the UK's woes get blamed on the EU and foreigners. One client we have is based in the North East. I had to visit them a couple of weeks ago to resolve some problems. We stayed not too far from Nissan. We went for something to eat and had a drink in a local pub where we met some car workers. Out of interest we asked them why did the area vote to leave the EU and what they thought of Nissan's announcement about future investment in the area. The answers we got were astounding. One guy said he thought Nissan were not serious when they wrote to employees saying they wanted to remain and if they had told us about impacts on future investment he would have voted to stay. Another said he voted to leave not because of problems with the EU but he wanted to kick the government up the backside and he did not like immigrants.

I could go on but I feel I am wasting my time.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on October 27, 2016, 02:14:58 AM
I forgot to include we had a board meeting today and we have decided because of the uncertainty and the lack of a clear message as to what May and her clowns are actually going to do we are going to cancel our investment plans. If we leave the single market then we could face a tariff of up to 25% and that along with the increase in our cost base will not allow us to compete.

We have decided that we will continue to service our existing clients with the current software. It will carry most of our clients to the end of 2017 or early 2018.

We will not tender for new customers. Once our current customer base is depleted we will sell off the rights to the software. It will have little value as it will be out of date. We will then close the company.

I am having the next 10 days off to play golf. I am sure that will annoy Liam Fox.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on October 27, 2016, 10:01:23 AM
Must be a horrible experience having to kill off a business you have cared about. Hope the golf goes well, Gerry. Perhaps seeing the hole as Michael Gove's ever-open mouth, and the ball as a means of shutting it, can motivate good putting.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on October 27, 2016, 10:27:01 AM
We will not tender for new customers. Once our current customer base is depleted we will sell off the rights to the software. It will have little value as it will be out of date. We will then close the company.

Must be a horrible experience having to kill off a business you have cared about.

This is not an isolated situation.  There are many small to medium businesses facing the same fate.  My OH is in a similar(ish) position - our solution is to relocate to Spain several years before we intended to. 

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Ovacikpeedoff on October 27, 2016, 10:54:12 AM
Colwyn, what is hardest is killing off a business that was growing. We had won local awards for best regional small business. Commendations for innovation and business practice. If we had been a failure I would not have been annoyed as I am now. I really feel for our staff as they will be the ones that will suffer most. We spent most of yesterday talking to them and they understand our predicament. We, who started the company,are in our 60s and it was always our intention by 2020 to step away and give day to day control to our brilliant staff. In the past year we had been talking with legal and tax experts to transfer our shares to our employees by way of a trust that we would still have control of as trustees. All the accrued financial benefits from our shares would be divided among the employees. We wanted to do it this way to ensure that the company would not be run into the ground. Working in technology constantly needs investment and we wanted to ensure that investment  continued to be the ethos going forward.

JF, we talked long and hard over the past few weeks about relocating to Dublin. Some staff would have come but the majority did not want to up sticks. We fully understand where they were coming from.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 27, 2016, 12:20:47 PM


      I feel for you and your employees Peedoff
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Scunner on October 27, 2016, 13:19:29 PM
We will not tender for new customers. Once our current customer base is depleted we will sell off the rights to the software. It will have little value as it will be out of date. We will then close the company.

Must be a horrible experience having to kill off a business you have cared about.

This is not an isolated situation.  There are many small to medium businesses facing the same fate.  My OH is in a similar(ish) position - our solution is to relocate to Spain several years before we intended to. 

JF

Till they boot you out.  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on October 27, 2016, 14:16:30 PM
It would seem that Nissan don't seem to be too bothered at the moment.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37787890
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on October 27, 2016, 14:17:29 PM
Why would Spain boot out JuanF?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 27, 2016, 16:21:40 PM
It would seem that Nissan don't seem to be too bothered at the moment.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37787890

I wondered about  this new found enthusiasm from Nissan for the United Kingdom of England and (maybe) Wales, then I saw Nissan have been given the equivalent of a BLANK CHEQUE (how generous of us):

"Britain has given Nissan (7201.T) a written commitment of extra support in the event that Brexit reduces the competitiveness of its Sunderland plant, in return for new production investments by the Japanese carmaker, a source with knowledge of the matter told Reuters.

In addition to unconditional investment aid, Britain pledged in a letter to offer further relief if the terms of Britain's European Union exit ended up harming the plant's performance, the source said."

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-nissan-support-idUKKCN12R1AK

So back to that £350m (not £350m) a week. Is it going to be sent to the NHS or sent to bribe the car manufacturers to stay?

Saying that, I suspect also part of the  reason is that anything approaching "true" brexit (and I still haven't been told by any Brexiter exactly what that is) is going to take YEARS - long after that new Nissan model is through it's life-cycle.

Anybody interested in "why?" it's going to take years and years should take a look at the Jack of Kent blog (also on Twitter), written by lawyer and journalist (and for his sins a Villa fan) David Allen Green. He was actually a marginal Brexiter but exposes the real issues about Brexit (i.e. the ones not mentioned by the Sun and Daily Mail etc.). For the Brexiters who really don't go in for details (I get the impression that that's approximately 100% of you, give or take), you cannot simply wave a magic wand and then we'll be shot of the EU forever.

For example The many hurdles of Brexit. (http://jackofkent.com/2016/09/the-many-hurdles-of-brexit-a-short-summary-post/)

You will note that 4 months down the line from June 23rd, we're just about to negotiate hurdle 1 of 19, with an almost guaranteed appeal to the Supreme Court to follow.

I humbly predict that this will be an extremely long-lived thread.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 27, 2016, 16:37:17 PM
While I'm here, do you remember that WTO Rules fall-back option? (you know, the "God help us" trading option assuming that we can't keep access to the Single Market AND kick Johnny Foreigner out)

Well, we'd even have to renegotiate entry to that club too - we can't just waltz in. And God-forbid if a WTO member had a long-standing UK thorn in its side, like ownership over some obscure South Atlantic islands, for example, and decided to be difficult about admitting us.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 27, 2016, 17:55:28 PM



      ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on October 27, 2016, 18:13:10 PM
While I'm here, do you remember that WTO Rules fall-back option? (you know, the "God help us" trading option assuming that we can't keep access to the Single Market AND kick Johnny Foreigner out)

Well, we'd even have to renegotiate entry to that club too - we can't just waltz in. And God-forbid if a WTO member had a long-standing UK thorn in its side, like ownership over some obscure South Atlantic islands, for example, and decided to be difficult about admitting us.

You obviously do not believe in referenda (unless the result goes your way). As I seem to remember that the Falkland Islanders voted to remain under UK control.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on October 27, 2016, 18:42:03 PM



      ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz.
Hey, your contributions are improving; much more coherent; try to keep it up old chap.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on October 27, 2016, 18:46:31 PM
We will not tender for new customers. Once our current customer base is depleted we will sell off the rights to the software. It will have little value as it will be out of date. We will then close the company.

Must be a horrible experience having to kill off a business you have cared about.

This is not an isolated situation.  There are many small to medium businesses facing the same fate.  My OH is in a similar(ish) position - our solution is to relocate to Spain several years before we intended to. 

JF

Till they boot you out.   ;)


You mean like wot happened when you got deported from Turkey...  :P how many times is it now?

Why would Spain boot out JuanF?

Mibbe I should change my username next year  :)

JuanF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on October 27, 2016, 20:44:44 PM
For the record I did vote to leave and my reasons are I admit entirely selfish.

I last had a pay rise in 2011, since then every year I have been told by one of our directors (this is a FTSE 250 company by the way) that. For what we are paying you we could get 2 eastern Europeans in I am quite certain that similar conversations have happened elsewhere.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on October 27, 2016, 22:40:37 PM
(http://s4.postimg.org/ctru8x5ah/image.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ctru8x5ah/)


What lies you were told to make you vote remain!
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on October 27, 2016, 22:44:59 PM
While I'm here, do you remember that WTO Rules fall-back option? (you know, the "God help us" trading option assuming that we can't keep access to the Single Market AND kick Johnny Foreigner out)

Well, we'd even have to renegotiate entry to that club too - we can't just waltz in. And God-forbid if a WTO member had a long-standing UK thorn in its side, like ownership over some obscure South Atlantic islands, for example, and decided to be difficult about admitting us.

Did you not listen to what the WTO head said yesterday or have you conveniently dismissed it?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: davybill on October 28, 2016, 08:20:15 AM
 Do you not listen Brexit Means BREXIT.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on October 28, 2016, 09:58:49 AM
(http://s4.postimg.org/ctru8x5ah/image.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ctru8x5ah/)


What lies you were told to make you vote remain!
Whether or not, and which of, these predictions were correct we will find out when we leave.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 28, 2016, 10:48:43 AM
While I'm here, do you remember that WTO Rules fall-back option? (you know, the "God help us" trading option assuming that we can't keep access to the Single Market AND kick Johnny Foreigner out)

Well, we'd even have to renegotiate entry to that club too - we can't just waltz in. And God-forbid if a WTO member had a long-standing UK thorn in its side, like ownership over some obscure South Atlantic islands, for example, and decided to be difficult about admitting us.

Did you not listen to what the WTO head said yesterday or have you conveniently dismissed it?

The Head of the WTO said we would have to renegotiate our "membership". At the moment the UK's membership of the WTO is as part of the EU. If you think a renegotiation is risk-free, then I think you're being naive:

"the U.K. to submit its own schedule of tariffs for the approval of trade partners, all of whom must agree to them. At that point, any of the other WTO members can flag issues, forcing the U.K. into a series of talks that could take years to resolve"

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-17/wto-economist-says-u-k-may-wait-years-to-sign-new-trade-deals
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 28, 2016, 10:52:01 AM
(http://s4.postimg.org/ctru8x5ah/image.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ctru8x5ah/)


What lies you were told to make you vote remain!
Whether or not, and which of, these predictions were correct we will find out when we leave.

The predictions were made on the assumption that Article 50 would be triggered immediately after the referendum. As Colwyn states, we haven't left yet.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 28, 2016, 10:55:45 AM
While I'm here, do you remember that WTO Rules fall-back option? (you know, the "God help us" trading option assuming that we can't keep access to the Single Market AND kick Johnny Foreigner out)

Well, we'd even have to renegotiate entry to that club too - we can't just waltz in. And God-forbid if a WTO member had a long-standing UK thorn in its side, like ownership over some obscure South Atlantic islands, for example, and decided to be difficult about admitting us.

You obviously do not believe in referenda (unless the result goes your way). As I seem to remember that the Falkland Islanders voted to remain under UK control.

They voted to stay a British colony, sure. But you don't think Argentina would like to have the Islands? And you obviously don't see any risk in other countries throw a spanner into our WTO renegotiation.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 28, 2016, 11:03:13 AM
For the record I did vote to leave and my reasons are I admit entirely selfish.

I last had a pay rise in 2011, since then every year I have been told by one of our directors (this is a FTSE 250 company by the way) that. For what we are paying you we could get 2 eastern Europeans in I am quite certain that similar conversations have happened elsewhere.

I will not question your experience, but statistics suggest that migration has not held down wages, except possibly at some very low wage jobs. It is also widely believed that migration has had a positive effect both on taxation revenue and overall GDP, which boosts the UK economy as a whole.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 28, 2016, 11:05:41 AM
Do you not listen Brexit Means BREXIT.

Does that mean we're in the Single Market or not? What about the Customs Union?

Why can't a single Brexiter answer these questions?

Do you really not care?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on October 28, 2016, 11:12:07 AM
It would seem that Nissan don't seem to be too bothered at the moment.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37787890 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37787890)

I wondered about  this new found enthusiasm from Nissan for the United Kingdom of England and (maybe) Wales, then I saw Nissan have been given the equivalent of a BLANK CHEQUE (how generous of us):

"Britain has given Nissan (7201.T) a written commitment of extra support in the event that Brexit reduces the competitiveness of its Sunderland plant, in return for new production investments by the Japanese carmaker, a source with knowledge of the matter told Reuters.

In addition to unconditional investment aid, Britain pledged in a letter to offer further relief if the terms of Britain's European Union exit ended up harming the plant's performance, the source said."

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-nissan-support-idUKKCN12R1AK (http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-nissan-support-idUKKCN12R1AK)

Aye, that one made me chuckle.  But the French must be laughing their bollox off given the strategic partnership between Renault and Nissan.

Despite claims by the Business Secretary that there was no "cheque book" involved, what this undertaking amounts to is that the UK government will underwrite any reduction in profit incurred by Nissan post brexit.  Wow.  What a sweet deal.  That'll be another chunk of that £350zillion a week heading towards Tokyo...

Who's next... Toyota? 

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 28, 2016, 11:45:12 AM
Brexiters love to moan about un-elected officials cutting murky secret deals.

If Brexit never happens Theresa May would presumably therefore be a shoe-in for the next EU President.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 28, 2016, 12:44:27 PM
Who knew that the current Conservative government was elected on an explicit manifesto commitment to “safeguard” the UK in the Single Market?

Remaining in the Single Market will mean we will continue paying into the EU coffers. Unless the EU budges, it also means Free Movement of people.

Now, do you think the current government could remove us from the Single Market without gaining a clear mandate obtained from having another General Election? Yes? Try again. No can do.

Boring, boring detail, eh, Brexiters?

Oh yeah, I forgot, "Brexit means Brexit". 

What an unholy mess.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on October 28, 2016, 12:50:33 PM
I wish you hadn't posted that Villain. This thread was slowly moving to 66 replies and 666 views - which would have been appropriately spooky. Now you've made it 67 and as soon as I press return I'll make it 68. Anyway Brexit means Brexit in CAPITAL LETTERS. So stop asking your difficult questions about where the hell this country is going. You are giving the Brexiteers a headache; you know they don't want to think about these difficult sort of things.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: strange on October 28, 2016, 14:23:36 PM
The 'very early' morning after the vote we were on route to the airport at an unGodly (is that a word, sorry if it isn't) hour and was listening to BBC radio.
They kept playing an interview with George Osborne they had from the day of the vote, and as a whole they were all stunned by what he'd said, as was I.
When asked what the Governments economic plan was IF the vote went against them and the people voted out, he stated that the Government didn't have an economic plan for an out vote.
Is this why we are now in this mess?
The saying is 'fail to prepare, prepare to fail'.
If that is the case that they hadn't even bothered to work on the possibility over the last X years when it was known there'd be a referendum, surely this Government are the elected people (not the people that voted for an exit) that are responsible for seeing what was proposed in their manifesto (i.e. a referendum) through to a suitable conclusion for the people they are supposed to represent?
How can they not have even thought that they might lose the vote?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on October 28, 2016, 15:48:34 PM
For the record I did vote to leave and my reasons are I admit entirely selfish.

I last had a pay rise in 2011, since then every year I have been told by one of our directors (this is a FTSE 250 company by the way) that. For what we are paying you we could get 2 eastern Europeans in I am quite certain that similar conversations have happened elsewhere.

I will not question your experience, but statistics suggest that migration has not held down wages, except possibly at some very low wage jobs. It is also widely believed that migration has had a positive effect both on taxation revenue and overall GDP, which boosts the UK economy as a whole.
Who was it that said lies, damn lies and statistics? Believe me wages ARE being held down and not just in very low paid jobs.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 28, 2016, 16:25:20 PM
he stated that the Government didn't have an economic plan for an out vote.
Is this why we are now in this mess?
The saying is 'fail to prepare, prepare to fail'.

As stated before, the only country/territory to leave the EU was Greenland - 48000 people and one major industry (fish) and it took them 3 years to get out.

Yet to the Leave campaign Brexit was touted as being simple and easy - it was either profound arrogance or ignorance - probably both. For example in May he suggested agreeing individual trade deals with France and Germany - a staggering lack of understanding about how the EU does trade deals (individual EU countries don't do them - if the opposite were true, surely the UK would have done some ourselves)  and then, a quote July 14th by our (then) future Minster for Brexit:

"So be under no doubt: we can do deals with our trading partners, and we can do them quickly.  I would expect the new Prime Minister on September 9th to immediately trigger a large round of global trade deals with all our most favoured trade partners.   I would expect that the negotiation phase of most of them to be concluded within between 12 and 24 months.

So within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, and therefore before anything material has changed, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU."

http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2016/07/david-davis-trade-deals-tax-cuts-and-taking-time-before-triggering-article-50-a-brexit-economic-strategy-for-britain.html

Then, on September 5th in front of the Commons foreign affairs committee, now that the the penny has dropped: "David Davis admits possibility of UK exiting EU without trade deal (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/13/david-davis-admits-possibility-of-uk-exiting-eu-without-trade-deal)"

My take: be under no doubt, if Brexit is actioned on March 31st 2017, on (fittingly) April 1st 2019, we *might* have a transitional agreement with the EU, but we WILL NOT have ANY other trade deals - compare that to Davis' job application statement in July. Just think, Theresa believed him!

You've been had, Brexiters, either by a mixture of a bunch of brazen liars, or by first-grade ignoramuses who are undoubtedly way out their depth.

Bloody details, eh?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: KKOB on October 28, 2016, 16:28:09 PM

Who was it that said lies, damn lies and statistics?

Mark Twain, Benjamin Disraeli and several others have been attributed with it.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on October 28, 2016, 17:13:29 PM
Lies, damned lies and "believe me" madmart.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 28, 2016, 17:14:42 PM
From the FT

Do migrants reduce UK wages?

(https://next-geebee.ft.com/image/v1/images/raw/http%3A%2F%2Fcom.ft.imagepublish.prod.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fcf30cd9e-370b-11e6-a780-b48ed7b6126f?source=next&fit=scale-down&width=600)

The chart shows the change in the share of EU immigrants for every local area in the UK (left to right) and the change in local wage levels (up and down). There is no correlation, indicating that areas with high levels of immigration do not have lower wage growth. There is no indication that immigration reduces wages.

A Bank of England study found a small effect on the lower paid, with a 10 percentage point rise in the share of low-skilled migrants reducing wages of the lower paid by 2 per cent. But the increase in EU migration share has been only about 2 percentage points between 2008 and 2015, suggesting the effect on low pay is about a cut of 0.4 per cent over seven years.

Alternative explanation
While the Leave campaign grossly exaggerated the very small measured effect of migration on low skill wages, there is a question whether normally high growth areas should be expected to have had larger increases in wages. This could explain why there is no positive correlation in the chart between areas of high immigration and higher wage rises.

Assessment
The available evidence suggests EU migration does not cut people’s pay, even for the low paid. But there is a possibility that it allows employers to increase employment in high demand areas without raising pay but allowing EU migration to be a buffer.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on October 28, 2016, 18:19:02 PM
(http://s4.postimg.org/ctru8x5ah/image.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ctru8x5ah/)


What lies you were told to make you vote remain!
Whether or not, and which of, these predictions were correct we will find out when we leave.

"A VOTE to leave would tip our economy into a year long recession" - George Osborne!

Can you not read - or are you deliberately ignoring the words of our ex chancellor?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on October 28, 2016, 18:22:37 PM
From the FT

Do migrants reduce UK wages?

(https://next-geebee.ft.com/image/v1/images/raw/http%3A%2F%2Fcom.ft.imagepublish.prod.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fcf30cd9e-370b-11e6-a780-b48ed7b6126f?source=next&fit=scale-down&width=600)

The chart shows the change in the share of EU immigrants for every local area in the UK (left to right) and the change in local wage levels (up and down). There is no correlation, indicating that areas with high levels of immigration do not have lower wage growth. There is no indication that immigration reduces wages.

A Bank of England study found a small effect on the lower paid, with a 10 percentage point rise in the share of low-skilled migrants reducing wages of the lower paid by 2 per cent. But the increase in EU migration share has been only about 2 percentage points between 2008 and 2015, suggesting the effect on low pay is about a cut of 0.4 per cent over seven years.

Alternative explanation
While the Leave campaign grossly exaggerated the very small measured effect of migration on low skill wages, there is a question whether normally high growth areas should be expected to have had larger increases in wages. This could explain why there is no positive correlation in the chart between areas of high immigration and higher wage rises.

Assessment
The available evidence suggests EU migration does not cut people’s pay, even for the low paid. But there is a possibility that it allows employers to increase employment in high demand areas without raising pay but allowing EU migration to be a buffer.

But immigration is not all about wages and jobs is it? It's also about the impact on our services such as the NHS, housing and schools. Some areas are in dire straights already due to uncontrolled immigration yet the remainers just turn a blind eye and call the leavers racist or bigots!
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on October 28, 2016, 18:27:29 PM
For the record I did vote to leave and my reasons are I admit entirely selfish.

I last had a pay rise in 2011, since then every year I have been told by one of our directors (this is a FTSE 250 company by the way) that. For what we are paying you we could get 2 eastern Europeans in I am quite certain that similar conversations have happened elsewhere.

I will not question your experience, but statistics suggest that migration has not held down wages, except possibly at some very low wage jobs. It is also widely believed that migration has had a positive effect both on taxation revenue and overall GDP, which boosts the UK economy as a whole.
Who was it that said lies, damn lies and statistics? Believe me wages ARE being held down and not just in very low paid jobs.

Correct - even Tesco have said this week that they will be sorry to see the cheap labour dry up.

Why do you think that the majority of hotel staff in the UK are foreign? I'm fairly certain it's not because UK citizens don't want to work in the hotel trade. Well to be honest they don't - at the level of wages offered for the hours they work.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: pompeylee on October 28, 2016, 18:32:02 PM
For the record I did vote to leave and my reasons are I admit entirely selfish.

I last had a pay rise in 2011, since then every year I have been told by one of our directors (this is a FTSE 250 company by the way) that. For what we are paying you we could get 2 eastern Europeans in I am quite certain that similar conversations have happened elsewhere.

I will not question your experience, but statistics suggest that migration has not held down wages, except possibly at some very low wage jobs. It is also widely believed that migration has had a positive effect both on taxation revenue and overall GDP, which boosts the UK economy as a whole.
not held down wages except possibly some very low wage jobs, answered yourself there?  Taxation revenue at what cost paying more benefits & housing, imprisoning all these legal & illegal migrants.
Suppose the housing is ok as a lot of polish seem happy to share a 2 bedroom house between 10 adults.

Wake up & tell me you can still walk down every street in the uk city you live in & understand the majority of languages unless you are very bilingual & feel 100% safe, I know I wouldn't like my wife or any of my older family out on there own.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: pompeylee on October 28, 2016, 18:37:41 PM
How you can rely on any survey when we do not who or how many have entered or are entering illegally the UK is beyond me, I have no problem with genuine migrants but not all these adult males our government is trying to fool us into thinking are children.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: pompeylee on October 28, 2016, 18:46:09 PM

(http://s14.postimg.org/heoer9xxp/image.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/heoer9xxp/)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 28, 2016, 19:46:07 PM
How you can rely on any survey when we do not who or how many have entered or are entering illegally the UK is beyond me, I have no problem with genuine migrants but not all these adult males our government is trying to fool us into thinking are children.

Remind me why Brexit will stop Asylum seekers.

You Brexiters are obviously very confused about all this.

The Nissan deal looks like we're remaining in The Customs Union,  by the way,  which will mean we won't be able to negotiate our own trade deals.

Now that may be bad news for you lot,  and believe me,  I feel for you,  but let's look at the bright side: Liam Fox is effectively redundant.

Rejoice!

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on October 28, 2016, 20:33:35 PM
Kilgore: Smell that? You smell that?
Lance: What?
Kilgore: xenophobia, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that.
Kilgore: I love the smell of xenophobia in the morning. You know, one time we read the Daily Express, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' immigrant.

Sorry Mr Duvall.  Sorry Mr Coppola

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 28, 2016, 20:38:03 PM
But immigration is not all about wages and jobs is it? It's also about the impact on our services such as the NHS, housing and schools. Some areas are in dire straights already due to uncontrolled immigration yet the remainers just turn a blind eye and call the leavers racist or bigots!

Interestingly, the area that has been most affected by migration, London, voted solidly for remain. It's actually the white, middle-class areas that has least experience of migration that tended to vote for Leave. Can't imagine it could have anything to do with people who read The Daily Mail. Nosirreeebob.

As for me, I'm from Birmingham. Although I moved out a few years ago, I have no issue walking anywhere in Brum.

Fantastic curries in the balti triangle. You should try 'em.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 28, 2016, 23:29:52 PM
I've heard that corned Leave compaigners have repainted their bus "We give £350m a week to the EU. Sod the NHS and let's give it to Nissan instead"
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 29, 2016, 00:01:18 AM


  Iv'e heard the UK voted to leave.      ;)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Highlander on October 29, 2016, 00:03:50 AM
I've heard that corned Leave compaigners have repainted their bus "We give £350m a week to the EU. Sod the NHS and let's give it to Nissan instead"

I am delighted that 7,000 people have job security - end of !!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 29, 2016, 08:14:23 AM

I am delighted that 7,000 people have job security - end of !!!!!!!!

A wonderful sentiment, but a completely mad way to get to the same place we were in 4 months ago.  Still a long period of uncertainty ahead too of sticking plaster economics which may require a huge amount of money.  And where's that promised £350m for the NHS?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 29, 2016, 10:09:42 AM
Here's another difficult question that Brexiters won't bother answering again:

Did your idea of reclaiming sovereignty involve giving a multi-national company more information about UK government policy than our very own parliament?

Sounds more like North Korea than a Western European Liberal democracy.

What a lot of control you now have! Congratulations!
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on October 29, 2016, 10:39:05 AM
The 1975 referendum was about membership of the EEC which at the time was a trading bloc, not  the all encompassing bureaucratic mess that it has morphed into. THAT is what people were voting about.

The latest referendum was a reaction to what the EEC has become. Which is a corrupt and generally unaccountable mess. The EU accounts have not been signed off for nearly 30 years, no accountants have had the nerve to do it, these are the same people that have signed off accounts for the likes of RBS, HBOS and Lloyds.

There was a majority in 1975 to stay in the EEC I don't remember the losing side being quite so bitter and twisted as the Remain camp.

Had Remain won I and many others would have accepted the result of a democratic process in an adult way. You know what I wish the Remain people would do the same!

No doubt Villain you will try and justify the ever nastier posts from yourself but you really need to accept the result and get on.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 29, 2016, 10:47:45 AM
ever nastier posts

Where?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 29, 2016, 10:59:06 AM
The myth: [quote="madmart]  The EU accounts have not been signed off for nearly 30 years
[/quote]

The truth: https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on October 29, 2016, 11:02:00 AM
The myth: [quote="madmart]  The EU accounts have not been signed off for nearly 30 years

The truth: https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/
[/quote]

It is hardly a ringing endorsement is it?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 29, 2016, 11:06:40 AM
The myth: [quote="madmart]  The EU accounts have not been signed off for nearly 30 years

The truth: https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/

It is hardly a ringing endorsement is it?
[/quote] 

...and hardly, "not signed off for 30 years"  either like your erroneous statement.

 If you want to talk about "corrupt",  you only have to look as far as

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/8828141/Liam-Fox-resigns-following-Adam-Werritty-revelations.html
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 29, 2016, 11:13:56 AM
Please show me those "ever nastier posts", or withdraw the comment. Ad hominem.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on October 29, 2016, 11:19:21 AM
Reading between the lines you do not believe my statement about the conversation with a company director at work.

Whilst you are picking me apart how about an answer to this comment of mine?

Had Remain won I and many others would have accepted the result of a democratic process in an adult way. You know what I wish the Remain people would do the same!
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 29, 2016, 11:33:31 AM
Reading between the lines you do not believe my statement about the conversation with a company director at work.

I prefer to read the, er, *lines* themselves, but even trying to read between them, I still can't see what you're on about. Can anyone else?

I will not question your experience, but statistics suggest that migration has not held down wages, except possibly at some very low wage jobs. It is also widely believed that migration has had a positive effect both on taxation revenue and overall GDP, which boosts the UK economy as a whole.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on October 29, 2016, 11:34:49 AM
And how about accepting the DEMOCRATIC result and moving on?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 29, 2016, 11:39:44 AM
And how about accepting the DEMOCRATIC result and moving on?

That's what this is all about. How are going to do it? None of you have a clue!

Single Market? Customs Union? Fire away...

Where are my ever nastier posts, by the way? When you attack me for something I haven't done, and not what I have posted, you make it look very much  like you've lost the argument.

Retract, please.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on October 29, 2016, 11:48:47 AM
And how about accepting the DEMOCRATIC result and moving on?

That's what this is all about. How are going to do it? None of you have a clue!

Single Market? Customs Union? Fire away...

Where are my ever nastier posts, by the way? When you attack me for something I haven't done, and not what I have posted, you make it look very much  like you've lost the argument.

Retract, please.

OK I'm actually having a similar battle online with our local Socialist from the pub at the moment as you can imagine there aren't that many of them in Surrey. That should have been for him and not you for that I apologise.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 29, 2016, 12:33:04 PM


   I'm watching some paint drying today.     :)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on October 29, 2016, 12:35:59 PM
 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 29, 2016, 14:20:43 PM
And how about accepting the DEMOCRATIC result and moving on?

A referendum is not how we pass legislation in the UK. This is where you find yourselves:

Leave Supporter: “We want our own Parliament to be sovereign on matters to do with the EU!”

Response: “Like on whether to Leave then?”

Leave Supporter: “No.”

Sovereign power in the UK lies with Parliament, not results from poorly drafted referendum questions.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on October 29, 2016, 14:28:43 PM
1 quick question if I may.

Were you in favour of a referendum before 23rd June?


 
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 29, 2016, 15:11:21 PM
I don't know if you've noticed, but ALL of the substantive questions I have asked of Brexit voters have gone unnanswered.

When I have been challenged,  I have given you and others the courtesy of researched and meaningful answers. I will happily answer your question if you could first respond to questions i have asked several times already,  like:

After Brexit,  should the UK retain access to the single Market and/or Customs Union?

Should legislation to enact Article 50 be passed through Parliament?

There's a few others.  Take your time.

Answers that include "brexit is BREXIT"  are disqualified.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 29, 2016, 15:29:39 PM
A word for those concerned about cutting down "uncontrolled EU immigration".

Only about 1/3 of net migration over the past few years was from the EU.

Q. Which means that 2/3rds wasn't. Why didn't the then Home Secretary do something about the presumably "controllable" 2/3rds, then?

A. Because her name was Theresa May.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on October 29, 2016, 15:36:17 PM
I don't know if you've noticed, but ALL of the substantive questions I have asked of Brexit voters have gone unnanswered.

When I have been challenged,  I have given you and others the courtesy of researched and meaningful answers. I will happily answer your question if you could first respond to questions i have asked several times already,  like:

After Brexit,  should the UK retain access to the single Market and/or Customs Union?

Should legislation to enact Article 50 be passed through Parliament?

There's a few others.  Take your time.

Answers that include "brexit is BREXIT"  are disqualified.

It is a simple question with a simple answer why so coy about answering? Or is it as I suspect you never thought the country would vote remain.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 29, 2016, 15:51:02 PM
I don't know if you've noticed, but ALL of the substantive questions I have asked of Brexit voters have gone unnanswered.

When I have been challenged,  I have given you and others the courtesy of researched and meaningful answers. I will happily answer your question if you could first respond to questions i have asked several times already,  like:

After Brexit,  should the UK retain access to the single Market and/or Customs Union?

Should legislation to enact Article 50 be passed through Parliament?

There's a few others.  Take your time.

Answers that include "brexit is BREXIT"  are disqualified.

It is a simple question with a simple answer why so coy about answering? Or is it as I suspect you never thought the country would vote remain.

Ha. Ha.

I asked first.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on October 29, 2016, 17:41:06 PM
I don't know if you've noticed, but ALL of the substantive questions I have asked of Brexit voters have gone unnanswered.

When I have been challenged,  I have given you and others the courtesy of researched and meaningful answers. I will happily answer your question if you could first respond to questions i have asked several times already,  like:

After Brexit,  should the UK retain access to the single Market and/or Customs Union?

Should legislation to enact Article 50 be passed through Parliament?

There's a few others.  Take your time.

Answers that include "brexit is BREXIT"  are disqualified.

It is a simple question with a simple answer why so coy about answering? Or is it as I suspect you never thought the country would vote remain.

Ha. Ha.

I asked first.

1. No - we do not need to be part of the single market we just need to be able to strike a trade deal with Europe. It's in their interests as much as ours to do so.

2. No - there is no legal requirement to do so. The referendum result was clear and article 50 should have been enacted immediately by that coward Cameron.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on October 29, 2016, 17:45:06 PM
That's it more or less Stoop.

Sent from my SM-A300FU using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on October 29, 2016, 18:01:21 PM
A word for those concerned about cutting down "uncontrolled EU immigration".

Only about 1/3 of net migration over the past few years was from the EU.

Q. Which means that 2/3rds wasn't. Why didn't the then Home Secretary do something about the presumably "controllable" 2/3rds, then?

A. Because her name was Theresa May.



Read this then :

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/key-topics/european-union

"EU migration is now more than double what it was in 2010 and almost half of all net foreign born migration to the UK."

Sort of blows your figures out of the water.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: pompeylee on October 29, 2016, 18:21:52 PM
How you can rely on any survey when we do not who or how many have entered or are entering illegally the UK is beyond me, I have no problem with genuine migrants but not all these adult males our government is trying to fool us into thinking are children.

Remind me why Brexit will stop Asylum seekers.

You Brexiters are obviously very confused about all this.

The Nissan deal looks like we're remaining in The Customs Union,  by the way,  which will mean we won't be able to negotiate our own trade deals.

Now that may be bad news for you lot,  and believe me,  I feel for you,  but let's look at the bright side: Liam Fox is effectively redundant.

Rejoice!
I did not say brexit would stop asylum seekers but when/if it happens & we finally have a say on who & how many genuine people we allow to stay in the UK with our own rules not rules decided in Brussels by unelected people who don't give a toss about the UK.

You may feel safe walking anywhere in Brum but would you be happy for any older/ young female members of you're family walking anywhere in 'brum' ? Of course you will most likely reply yes to this as I think you are just out for a discussion on something you disagree with & are unwilling to accept a public vote.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 29, 2016, 18:34:34 PM

   Herr Blair flounced into a BBC studio this morning and said he is demanding a second Referendum or

   a General Election.    What a self-opinionated,undemocratic,hypocritical,lying,deluded slimeball.

   He should be standing in a dock for all his deception and the loss of life and destruction he caused.

   I suspect this is a start of his desire to claw back control of the Labour Party. I think they deserve him.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 29, 2016, 18:51:11 PM
I did not say brexit would stop asylum seekers but when/if it happens & we finally have a say on who & how many genuine people we allow to stay in the UK with our own rules not rules decided in Brussels by unelected people who don't give a toss about the UK.


Describe to me in details the rules that "Brussels" imposes upon us about immigrants. Let me guess: no reply.

Note: Our current Prime Minister is unelected. Her party was elected under a manifesto  that said our position in the Single Market would be safeguarded. How do you feel about that? Let me guess: no reply.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 29, 2016, 18:52:59 PM

   Herr Blair flounced into a BBC studio this morning and said he is demanding a second Referendum or

   a General Election.    What a self-opinionated,undemocratic,hypocritical,lying,deluded slimeball.

   He should be standing in a dock for all his deception and the loss of life and destruction he caused.

   I suspect this is a start of his desire to claw back control of the Labour Party. I think they deserve him.

I might be no fan of Blair and he might be on my side in this debate. How do you feel about beoing on the same side as Vladimir Putin? Let me guess: no reply.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 29, 2016, 19:07:51 PM
You may feel safe walking anywhere in Brum but would you be happy for any older/ young female members of you're family walking anywhere in 'brum' ? Of course you will most likely reply yes to this as I think you are just out for a discussion on something you disagree with & are unwilling to accept a public vote.
I agree, you're right, having lived in Southsea/Portsmouth for a couple a years too, there are places there I wouldn't want female family members to walk around late at night.

It's got NOTHING to do with immigration, though. How do you feel about that? Let me guess: no reply.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 29, 2016, 19:14:49 PM
Point remains: Brexit isn't going to happen any time soon and no-one -  me or you Brexiters is going to be happy.

The Conservative manifesto was to retain UK access to the Single Market. That means EU contributions and probably some sort of nonsense fudge on Freedom on Movement. They can't reverse that pledge. Not in this parliament.

Nissan deal points to Customs Union: No independent trade deals and Fox out of a job.

So brexiters, you'll still be at the mercy of EU regulations, except you'll have virtually no say over them. You can't do deals with the Aussies, Pakistanis, whatever, either.

Question my analysis if you like. Believe me, I'm not happy about it either, but was this what you were expecting?

Let me guess....
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 29, 2016, 20:19:54 PM




              Urban Dictionary: sore loser
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sore%20loser
A sore loser is someone who loses in a fair competition but whines about it on a constant basis, blaming everyone around them for their loss excep...              ;)

                                 BREXIT MEANS BREXIT. !!!

                       
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on October 30, 2016, 00:18:20 AM
The biggest problem is uncontrolled immigration from the EU. It's doubled since 2010 and we are allowing unskilled workers to arrive and either take low paid jobs or seak benefits. Our country cannot survive if we allow this to continue.

Non EU immigration, unless it's illegal or asylum seekers, tends to be either skilled or professional because they have to prove they have a job to come to.

Nobody is saying "send them all back" just regain control and if that means coming out of the single market then so be it.

Brexit means Brexit is the term our PM used and believe me those that voted out will hold her to that! Any fudge will be met with mass demonstrations like we've not seen since the Poll Tax. That's the feedback I'm getting on Facebook and Twitter from many of those who were part of the majority that voted to leave the EU. I'm sure UKIP will do its utmost to make sure this happens.

I'm not saying that would be the best option but for some it will seem that way.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on October 30, 2016, 00:21:28 AM




              Urban Dictionary: sore loser
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sore%20loser
A sore loser is someone who loses in a fair competition but whines about it on a constant basis, blaming everyone around them for their loss excep...               ;)

                                 BREXIT MEANS BREXIT. !!!

                       

Point remains: Brexit isn't going to happen any time soon and no-one -  me or you Brexiters is going to be happy.

The Conservative manifesto was to retain UK access to the Single Market. That means EU contributions and probably some sort of nonsense fudge on Freedom on Movement. They can't reverse that pledge. Not in this parliament.

Nissan deal points to Customs Union: No independent trade deals and Fox out of a job.

So brexiters, you'll still be at the mercy of EU regulations, except you'll have virtually no say over them. You can't do deals with the Aussies, Pakistanis, whatever, either.

Question my analysis if you like. Believe me, I'm not happy about it either, but was this what you were expecting?

Let me guess....

I truly think you are the one who will be disappointed.

Once article 50 is invoked we will be out of the EU inside two years.

If we are lucky it will be just before it all goes belly up for them.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on October 30, 2016, 00:24:27 AM
"The Conservative manifesto was to retain UK access to the Single Market. That means EU contributions and probably some sort of nonsense fudge on Freedom on Movement. They can't reverse that pledge."

You don't really understand politics do you?

Since when has a manifesto been completely actioned? It's not passed in law - just as the pledge to reduce immigration to tens of thousands in this parliament.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on October 30, 2016, 00:47:10 AM
Taken from the Tory Manifesto.

Clear enough now?


(https://s18.postimg.org/mhu6fptw5/image.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/mhu6fptw5/)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 30, 2016, 01:00:14 AM
Descibe to me what Brexit is.

Let me guess.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on October 30, 2016, 13:24:03 PM
Ok I'll try and make this as simple as possible for you.

Brexit means the UK voted to leave the EU. That includes the freedom of movement and the single market.



Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on October 30, 2016, 13:30:25 PM
Now I'll ask you a question.

Where in the manifesto does it say the Tories want to remain in the single market?

All I've read is that they would prefer to stay in the EU after renegotiating the terms. That renegotiation fell flat on its face as you know and their pledge was then to give us an in/out vote - which as you can see they promised to honour, whatever the result.

We voted out and come April 2019 we should have a day to celebrate our independence. Peferably not 01/04
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on October 30, 2016, 14:10:51 PM
Hey, wow, UK Gov has said something about what Brexit means!!! Apparently our "leaders" want tariff-free trade for the motor industry. This is what Nissan was told - according to Business Secretary Greg Clark. As far as I know there is still no mention of all the rest of our economy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37815864
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 31, 2016, 09:23:16 AM
Now I'll ask you a question.

Where in the manifesto does it say the Tories want to remain in the single market?


Page 72.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 31, 2016, 09:31:49 AM
If Nissan is part owned by Renault and Renault is part owned by the French state, could it mean the French government have a better idea about May's plans than the British people?

Nice to see that we're playing our cards so close to our chests.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on October 31, 2016, 09:39:07 AM
Jeez...  you're like a dug with a bone.

 :)

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 31, 2016, 10:00:05 AM


  Or even a dog,    :)

   I'm off to the dictionary to find him a new definition,     
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 31, 2016, 10:31:08 AM
My favourite idiom on brexit as it is unfolding is derived from the Bible - Matthew 15:14.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 31, 2016, 10:49:11 AM





                                                  GOD  HELP  US.     
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: happy_flyer on October 31, 2016, 11:30:56 AM
I voted out and still would today.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 31, 2016, 11:38:09 AM
A new entrant to the thread! Welcome. I'd love you to add some flesh on the bones of your thoughts

I'm fascinated by the "nuts and bolts" of Brexit.

I was just wondering: If/when we do have a blueprint for what Brexit looks like, should it

a. Be allowed to progress just on the PM's say so (Royal Prerogative)

b. Be voted upon in Parliament

c. Be put to a simple "yes/no" referendum?

Secondly, how would YOU like Brexit to looks like? Single Market? Customs Union, Nissan-style sweetheart deals etc?

Let me guess.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: davybill on October 31, 2016, 12:50:24 PM
A new entrant to the thread! Welcome. I'd love you to add some flesh on the bones of your thoughts

I'm fascinated by the "nuts and bolts" of Brexit.

I was just wondering: If/when we do have a blueprint for what Brexit looks like, should it

a. Be allowed to progress just on the PM's say so (Royal Prerogative)

b. Be voted upon in Parliament

c. Be put to a simple "yes/no" referendum?

Secondly, how would YOU like Brexit to looks like? Single Market? Customs Union, Nissan-style sweetheart deals etc?

Let me guess.
How would you like it to look like? Let me guess.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Lotty on October 31, 2016, 13:34:36 PM
Your anger and frustration is palpable Villain, you are entitled to your opinions but don't put people off commenting on the thread by your sarcasm and demands.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 31, 2016, 14:53:00 PM
You mean like this:




      ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz.

I clearly don't have a monopoly on sarcasm in this thread, so why single me out? If I've come across as sarcastic, it's just I've gotten frustrated at the lack of insight many people hold about this subject. As for "demands", I've just asked people their view and I've had precious little back.

With the utmost repect, Lotty, what's your view on the subject? What Brexit do you want, and what do you think we're going to get? The reason I ask is that chances are, they're going to be two different things.


This is what Wolfgang Münchau says in the FT today:

"The philosopher Friedrich Hegel described historical processes in terms of “thesis, antithesis and synthesis” — an initial phase where one particular view holds, then the opposite, followed by compromise. So far the Brexit debate appears to be dutifully following Hegelian logic.

The widespread assumption that Britain would remain in the EU gave way, after the June referendum, to the antithesis: the prospect of “hard” Brexit. Now, courtesy of Japanese carmaker Nissan, we have glimpsed the possible synthesis: a soft Brexit whereby Britain would retain full membership of the EU single market.

Last week the company announced it would build the next generation of two models at its plant in Sunderland, north-east England. I cannot see how Nissan could have taken that decision without firm commitments from Prime Minister Theresa May, who met Carlos Ghosn, Nissan chief executive, two weeks ago. It makes no sense for the company to build these cars unless they expect to remain in the customs union and the single market.

I believe that Mrs May will in the end conclude that this is the best option for Britain, not least because this is where events will pull her. Right now she may overestimate the number of Brexit options. Last week she admonished an MP from the opposition Labour party for failing to comprehend that “the way in which you deal with the customs union is not a binary choice”. The MP is right. She is wrong.

The EU will not offer a sector-specific customs union. It will not split the four freedoms: movement of labour, capital, goods and services. Nor will it allow a split within any of those four. Free movement of cars but not of bicycles is a non-starter.

Similar logic applies to the final Brexit choices. You can end up in the single market or not — or in the customs or not. In means In and Out means Out. The EU would surely offer a single market deal if the UK asked for it. The Germans and others might tell British visitors that Brexit will be hard but this is not what the Germans are saying to each other. Germany recorded a €56bn trade surplus with the UK last year. Do you honestly think they would sacrifice this for anything as lofty as a principled position? I believe Germans when they say they will not compromise on the four freedoms but I also believe they would be willing to offer a soft Brexit if the UK wanted one — because it would be soft on Germany.

Say, for argument’s sake, that the UK chooses a hard Brexit with no transitional regime. Nissan would then surely have to reverse last week’s decision. There would be no industrial logic in expanding its UK car production capacity in this scenario.

So if you want Nissan and other manufacturing companies to expand in the UK, the only option is to remain in the single market — either as part of a permanent deal or as part of an interim one with an extended transition period. In the case of a car company, that period would have to exceed the life cycle of vehicle model — five to 10 years. During that period the EU will ask the UK to respect free movement of labour and abide by rulings of the European Court of Justice.

The longer the interim period, the softer the Brexit. That might be the face-saving compromise: 10 years of full single market membership followed by either hard Brexit or an association agreement.

But does Mrs May’s promise of immigration control not preclude a European Economic Area-type deal, where European states that are not EU members pay for membership of the single market. Yes, if she sticks to this promise with pedantic accuracy. But there is a lot she could do to reduce immigration within the single market. EU member states are not allowed to discriminate against other EU nationals on the basis of nationality but they are allowed to discriminate on the basis of residence — which amounts to the same for practical purposes. The government could impose a five-year minimum residency requirement for access to the National Health Service, to welfare benefits, even income tax breaks. This would get the job done. It would constitute a big cut in the disposable income of low-wage immigrants, in particular.

I agree with the proposition that it makes no sense to leave the EU only to pay for membership of the single market as an EEA member. But the UK has already chosen to leave the EU. Starting from where we are, the EEA is the best of the remaining options. It works for Nissan. It works for Scotland and Northern Ireland. And, most importantly, it will work for the prime minister.

As someone who has been on both sides of the Brexit arguments virtually simultaneously, she incorporates both thesis and antithesis. Hegel taught us where that ends up."





Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 31, 2016, 15:00:26 PM



    As your friends in France & Germany would say

    Laissez-moi deviner.

    Lassen sie mich raten. 
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: KKOB on October 31, 2016, 15:32:09 PM
Tahmin etmeme izin ver ?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Diverbaz 1 on October 31, 2016, 15:33:51 PM

b. Be voted upon in Parliament

Already done when it was agreed in Parliament to have a referendum. Not lets have a referendum and do the opposite of whats voted for. End of. the vote did not go your way, that's life, live with it!!!
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on October 31, 2016, 16:00:29 PM
Villain, don't you think it is about time you stopped torturing these people who voted leave? You keep asking them what it was they voted FOR.You've put on the thumbscrews and twisted them and still they don't answer. You ask them time and time again and ... nothing, not a sausage, bugger all. The simple reason is that they don't know! They weren't voting FOR anything. They were voting AGAINST. Silly though that may have been they did have the right to that. And they did it. So we will have to live with the consequences.

Now I'm going to focus on the equally pointless lunacy of worrying about the possibility of there being a President Trump.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Highlander on October 31, 2016, 17:27:22 PM

With the utmost repect, Lotty, what's your view on the subject?


Surely it's up to members if they wish to express a view on this subject or not.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on October 31, 2016, 17:30:51 PM
Villain, don't you think it is about time you stopped torturing these people who voted leave? You keep asking them what it was they voted FOR.You've put on the thumbscrews and twisted them and still they don't answer. You ask them time and time again and ... nothing, not a sausage, bugger all. The simple reason is that they don't know! They weren't voting FOR anything. They were voting AGAINST. Silly though that may have been they did have the right to that. And they did it. So we will have to live with the consequences.

Now I'm going to focus on the equally pointless lunacy of worrying about the possibility of there being a President Trump.

I've told you what I voted for (and many others the same). Maybe you can't read my posts?

Maybe you and Villain should enlighten us on why you voted to remain in the EU. I'm sure that will be fun reading (not).

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on October 31, 2016, 17:32:07 PM
Surely it's up to members if they wish to express a view on this subject or not.
Perhaps, or perhaps not. Or both.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 31, 2016, 17:34:08 PM

                 Colwyn, the leavers aren't tortured  just elated.

                 All the acrimony is emanating from your camp.       ;)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on October 31, 2016, 17:37:15 PM
Now I'll ask you a question.

Where in the manifesto does it say the Tories want to remain in the single market?


Page 72.

Then have you read page 72 in full?

Let me guess  :)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on October 31, 2016, 17:41:58 PM
I'm out of this discussion as it's obviously pointless. Villain just sees what he wants to see and listens to nothing that he doesn't agree with.

Roll on Independence day in 2019.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 31, 2016, 17:46:35 PM


           People who know everything are best left to wallow in their own superiority.



                                                                                                           Anon.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on October 31, 2016, 17:53:28 PM
Or even a dog,     :)

No, a dug.

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 31, 2016, 18:03:25 PM


   Och aye.      :)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on October 31, 2016, 18:11:31 PM
All the acrimony is emanating from your camp.
I haven't been to camp since I left the Sea Scouts. Anyway I am too busy fruitlessly fretting about The Donald and the End of the World  to camp about on this thread. So there! I'm thinking of relocating. I'm told some places in the south of Mars can be quite pleasant in the summer.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on October 31, 2016, 18:27:39 PM
Och aye.       :)

The noo.

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 31, 2016, 18:34:21 PM

With the utmost repect, Lotty, what's your view on the subject?


Surely it's up to members if they wish to express a view on this subject or not.

If someone doesn't want to express a view on a subject in "The Debating Chamber" section, why on earth would they post on the relevant thread?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on October 31, 2016, 18:47:09 PM
Villain - stop pouncing on members if they happen to post.  Please.

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 31, 2016, 19:30:56 PM
You mean stop debating in the Debating Chamber?

So anyone can comment about what I say,  but I can't reply.

RTE would be proud.
 

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on October 31, 2016, 19:34:54 PM
The last one was nice.  Now stop being a dick.

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 31, 2016, 19:47:25 PM
The last one was nice.  Now stop being a dick.

JF

"The Debating Chamber
For grown ups to discuss current affairs and other subjects. Please note that personal attacks are not permitted but pretty much any subject is. If you are easily offended, please don't be, just don't use this particular forum!"

Don't you have to now yellow card yourself  for the personal abuse?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on October 31, 2016, 20:01:07 PM
1 quick question if I may.

Were you in favour of a referendum before 23rd June?


 

Villain are you going to answer that one now?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on October 31, 2016, 20:01:38 PM
The last one was nice.  Now stop being a dick.

JF

"The Debating Chamber
For grown ups to discuss current affairs and other subjects. Please note that personal attacks are not permitted but pretty much any subject is. If you are easily offended, please don't be, just don't use this particular forum!"

Don't you have to now yellow card yourself  for the personal abuse?
No,  given the context it was an accurate assessment of how you're behaving.

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 31, 2016, 20:13:53 PM
Villain - stop pouncing on members if they happen to post.  Please.

JF

Really - please explain what the hell this is supposed to mean. It's a discussion forum. Somebody posts something, someone else replies.

What rules have I broken?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on October 31, 2016, 20:25:13 PM
I'm not going to "debate" this with you.

This is not your personal topic, if members want to post in this thread they are free to do so - they do not need to justify themselves by "having an opinion" or otherwise.

End of.

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 31, 2016, 20:29:59 PM
I'm not going to "debate" this with you.

Is it the wrong forum for debate or something?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on October 31, 2016, 20:32:38 PM
It certainly isn't for that type of debate, so please don't push it.

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on October 31, 2016, 20:34:40 PM
What sort of debate - one you're not winning?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on October 31, 2016, 20:39:24 PM
The one that just earned you a 24hr holiday from CBF.

When administrators or Moderators make suggestions its worthwhile paying heed - I'll state it again, members should not feel they have to justify their participation in any topic. 

You probably got three posts more than Keith would have given you. 

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on October 31, 2016, 20:40:18 PM
Now then, back on topic.  Who wants to argue for remain?

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on October 31, 2016, 21:28:19 PM


  It's a really divisive event that's split the country and there will be winners and losers financially.
 
  I hope the losers are not too badly affected in their pockets and soon pull round. I am really

  sure the future will be better for my kids and their kids once we have left, a gut feeling.

  That's my last word on this thread.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Jacqui Harvey on November 01, 2016, 22:35:00 PM
I have not been involved in this discussion but after I saw this story on F.B today in The Sun and then it was reported by other newspapers.  I would suppose a lot of British people would be amazed that someone can come from abroad because we where/are still, in the EU and get such huge benefits.  I also have been watching a programme on T.V. In the mornings about a wonderful Nun, Sister Rita, who works so hard to help underprileveged people in a suburb of Manchester.  A great programme about a really inspirational woman.   These people are struggling to keep their heads above water and I cannot collate the huge difference between these people who get very little  and this man who has been given so much. 
I am not or commenting or criticising I am merely curious
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2081271/fury-as-benefits-dad-of-eight-who-complained-house-was-too-small-handed-keys-to-plush-425000-4-bed-detached-pad-on-posh-street/
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on November 02, 2016, 15:12:47 PM
Sun headline on migrant working the system shock. What would really be interesting if the Sun had a front page story about how Rupert Murdoch works the system so that NewsCorp avoids £millions of UK taxes (NewsCorp didn't pay ANY UK tax in the 1990s). If you're looking for people working/expoliting the system, wouldn't it be better to start at the top?

Perhaps at the very top might be Lord Rothermere. The Daily Mail should surely run a front page story about how Lord Rothermere, a man who claims to love Britain so much and was born and educated here, has exploited his inherited non-domiciled status to avoid £10's millions of UK tax and like Murdoch, runs his business empire via a complex web of off-shore companies. For a man who wanted Britain to leave the EU and convinced millions to vote for his side using cheap scaremongering stories in his vile rag, doesn't anyone think it's strange that 1. he doesn't do the patriotic thing - pay his fair share of UK taxes - and 2. that his ultimate allegiance is to France? This is where The Sun and The Daily Mail get you. Throw a constant stream of Moral Outrage stories at you so you can all get worked up about the (relative) minutiae, thereby blinding you from seeing the big picture.

https://web.archive.org/web/20131021212813/http://www.private-eye.co.uk/sections.php?section_link=street_of_shame&issue=1351

We've been here before with The Daily Mail at least, though, just as they try and scare you with Syrian asylum seekers today, they were doing precisely the same thing with Jewish asylum seekers in the 1930's.

1938:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yvfihqDQYI4/UlShXBacKJI/AAAAAAAAT88/vY3fTUL0KoI/s1600/German+Jews+Pouring+into+this+country.jpg)

2015:

(http://leftfootforward.org/images/2015/08/Daily-Mail-28-8-15.jpg)

The Sun wasn't of course around in the 1930's. You can only imagine...



Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on November 02, 2016, 16:22:37 PM
Are you saying that everyone who voted leave is a Nazi?

If you are you really are the lowest of the low.

By the way any chance of the courtesy of an answer to my question?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Jacqui Harvey on November 02, 2016, 17:26:16 PM
Villain, Do you assume the story in The Sun (which was carried by other papers) is not true?  Does this Foreign guy really not live in the U.K with his eight children and a big house and lots of benefits?   Did he really not give up his job in Paris to come to the U.K under the right to travel rule????????
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on November 02, 2016, 17:31:14 PM
What? The Sun telling lies? Surely it wouldn't do that? Has it done that before?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on November 02, 2016, 17:41:27 PM
Has it done that before?

No, never - although it has a bit of a history with factual inexactitudes...

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stuart T on November 02, 2016, 17:46:44 PM
You mean Freddie Starr didn't eat the hamster?

Maybe, a la Clinton, he chewed but didn't swallow.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Jacqui Harvey on November 02, 2016, 19:55:34 PM
As said it was not just the Sun that printed this story. The Daily Mirror printed it too (A good Labour Newsapepr)  However, if anyone still does not believe this and can prove this story is not true, please give the evidence here.  I will be interested to read it, or are all the say in Europe people burying their heads in the sand.

Story in the Mirro.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-dad-eight-who-claimed-9161234
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on November 03, 2016, 11:24:26 AM
Following the Court ruling this morning, it would now be unlawful for the government to invoke Article 50 without an Act of Parliament. The Government are appealing to the Supreme Court and the case will be heard on December 7th.

If the government lose the appeal, they can then submit a further appeal to the..ahem, European Court of Justice.

I keep on saying it - Brexit is really very interesting. And I just can't see it happening in a hurry. Expect a whole load more twists and turns.

Jacqui and madmart. Please read my earlier post again, because I really don't think either of you did. There, I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on November 03, 2016, 11:36:30 AM
Please just answer the perfectly simple question I posed the other day.

Were you in favour of a referendum before June 23rd? YES/NO

I've even made it easy for you by supplying the choice of answers!
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on November 03, 2016, 11:49:13 AM
You know what, I can't even remember. It's fair to say I was unhappy that the vote went the wrong way. I would have thought that was obvious.

How do you feel about the Court ruling today?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on November 03, 2016, 11:58:23 AM
Parliament should have a vote about when to enact Article 50 but not about whether it should be enacted, that is what the referendum decided by a majority albeit a small majority. Had it been 48 to 52 I would have accepted it.

 This is the concept the Remain camp seem unable to accept.

Nowhere in the rules before did it say it had to 60-40 or 75-25.



Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on November 03, 2016, 12:04:41 PM
An election looms and the landslide May will get will render this meaningless anyway.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on November 03, 2016, 12:12:47 PM
Parliament should have a vote about when to enact Article 50 but not about whether it should be enacted
Blimey, you've said something with which I agree! In fact I would go further and say that Parliament should endorse May's March invoking of Article 50. If she hasn't worked out how we are going to proceed by then she'll never manage it. But before she gets her vote she'll have to come to the House to face questioning - Parliamentary Sovereignty and all that..
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on November 03, 2016, 16:56:46 PM
Parliament's role is to now form a consensus for Brexit. It's not just about "when" but "how".

May's approach has been totally cack-handed. A refusal to give a "running commentary" and aiming to present the finished Brexit model as a fait accompli whilst simultaneously pressing the "Fire" button is just all wrong. Is Government by diktat what the Brexiters wanted - exchange the so-called tyranny of the EU with our own far more fearsome  variety? I honestly think she's the wrong person for the job. Fox and Davis in particular have proved to be well out of their depth. BoJo is mainly just a cheerleader. May is now forced to show her hand and her intentions (that's assuming she does actually have either)

Assuming the Supreme Court appeal goes the same way (and really, it should), Article 50 will require an Act of Parliament, passing through the Commons and then Lords.

Which brings me back to my earlier point about the Conservative Manifesto, which explicitly states (admittedly amongst other things) that the current administration will "safeguard" our position in the Single Market.  The House of Lords will not oppose the second or third reading of any government legislation promised in its election manifesto. A "Hard Brexit" would probably mean leaving the Single Market and I suggest could well be hotly opposed in the Lords.

A Hard Brexit will require a fresh mandate.

As Colwyn rightly stated previously, many Brexit voters knew what they were voting against, but I would imagine far less knew what they were actually voting for - and I'll say it again - do you want access to the Single Market? Customs Union? etc.  I think you ought to be making your minds up. .

If you don't like the EU, fine. But for God's sake don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

P.S. This is only going to get messier. That was only the first hurdle, and the government lost - there's loads more.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on November 04, 2016, 10:38:53 AM
From a FB poster. Pretty much sums up what is happening. I just hope the Supreme Court sees sense before we head towards horrible times!


"My take on the judges decision. I'll start with a few quotes:

(sic.) "We will legislate in the first session of the next Parliament for an in-out referendum to be held on Britain’s membership of the EU before the end of 2017. We will negotiate a new settlement for Britain in the EU. And then we will ask the British people whether they want to stay in on this basis, or leave. We will honour the result of the referendum, whatever the outcome."
[Page 75, "The Conservative Party Manifesto 2015" Crown Publishing, 2015]

(sic.) "This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide."
[page 14, 'Why the Government believes that voting to remain in the European Union is the best decision for the UK', Crown Publishing, 2016]

I can't see how the referendum process could have been made ANY clearer. With live in a Parliamentary Democracy, but in this instance, Parliament chose to give THE PEOPLE the vote, in the form of a referendum. The government may have proposed the referendum, but it was Parliament themselves that enacted the referendum. They made the decision to give THE PEOPLE the choice.
Furthermore, the referendum leaflet  (sent to every single household) contained content that had been agreed across ALL the main parties, prior to publication.

It was clear: "The Government will implement what YOU decide".

They can use legal 'airs-and-graces' all they like, but it doesn't conceal the fact that they are taking tentative steps towards overturning what they consider an unexpected and unwelcome referendum result. It's now established that, from a legal perspective, the referendum is NOT 'legally-binding'. To me, the caveats suggest one of two things:

1. Either they were complacent/inept when they were scrutinising the law and drafting up the terms of the referendum.

or

2. It was entirely deliberate, in order to provide a legal 'get out clause' and thus, the intention was never to GENUINELY let the people decide.

Either way, it's not very good, is it? I think irrespective of whether you are pro or anti EU, you should find this latest legal-manoeuvring very unsettling, not for what it can achieve, but for what it represents. It basically ensures that the voice of unelected peers and MP's who wish to defy the wishes of their electorate, will ALWAYS supersede the voice of the people.

They are cleverly trying to "dress this up" by saying that it is to allow Parliament a voice on HOW Brexit is conducted, and not IF Brexit is conducted. Don't fall for this. This is a decision that will give MP's an opportunity to delay and ultimately kill off the result.

The term 'Parliamentary Democracy' has become an oxymoron. The word 'Democracy' comes from the Greek term 'demōs' meaning 'the people', and the definition of the term 'Democracy' is:

"The belief in freedom and equality between people, or a system of government based on this belief, in which power is EITHER held by elected representatives OR directly by the people themselves"

I would suggest that in this instance, the use of a referendum (authorised by Parliament, remember!) gave the democratic choice to the people directly.

This is nothing more than a cynical manoeuvre to SUPPRESS the democratic result. Wherever you sit on the 'Brexit' debate, this precedent SHOULD have you worried!"
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on November 04, 2016, 10:58:11 AM
I don't see any problem here. We voted to leave, we're leaving and a British court has decided that we should let our elected British MPs work out the fine details of how we plan to leave in accordance with our constitution. Doesn't it tick every box on the Brexiteers' wish list?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on November 04, 2016, 11:05:20 AM
Not at all! If you read the post above you will see that Parliament passed a bill for the referendum which in turn passed the power to the electorate. It was decided by the electorate that we should leave therefore there is no reason why parliament should have a vote on Article 50 as the government has a mandate from its people.

It has set a dangerous precedent and is designed to delay Brexit or even scupper it! I only hope it's overturned by the SC.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on November 04, 2016, 11:32:23 AM
So, according to your FB friend:

Prime Ministerial diktat = good

Parliamentary Scrutiny = bad

Judges = bad

Rule of Law = bad



What are that FB poster's proposed terms of exit from the EU? What is the electorate's proposed terms of exit? What is your proposed terms of exit?

Should we have another referendum on Hard or Soft Brexit?

Or should we let Parliament decide the terms?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on November 04, 2016, 11:53:11 AM
Should we have another referendum on Hard or Soft Brexit?

Or should we let Parliament decide the terms?
What makes you think that anyone in the UK will be in a position to "decide the terms"?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on November 04, 2016, 12:12:27 PM
You're right, we have to agree them. A magic wand sure isn't going to do it.

Has anyone read the Court's judgement, BTW?

It's here:  https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/judgment-r-miller-v-secretary-of-state-for-exiting-the-eu-20161103.pdf

alternatively,  there's a shorter summary here: https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/summary-r-miller-v-secretary-of-state-for-exiting-the-eu-20161103.pdf

"The most fundamental rule of the UK's constitution is that Parliament is sovereign and can make and unmake any law it chooses...

...the Crown - i.e. the Government of the day - cannot by exercise of prerogative powers override legislation enacted by Parliament"

- Article 50 will change UK law. If Parliament makes a law, only Parliament can unmake it. It's not exactly a new principle, so why the surprise?

These are The Daily Mail's "Enemies of the State", by the way. How dare they uphold the UK constitution.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on November 04, 2016, 12:20:32 PM
Brexiters who are concerned by a delay to Brexit should not wait another month for an appeal which will most likely fail.

Instead they should ask the Prime Minister to put her proposals for Brexit to Parliament at the earliest opportunity.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on November 07, 2016, 11:48:40 AM
Hands up those who think that the referendum result is binding?

Confirmation of it being a non-binding referendum (http://nowweknow.co.uk/is-the-poll-result-binding/)

(Section 5) “This Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of 2017. It does not contain any requirement for the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative  which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions.”

House of Commons briefing paper No 07212 on the European Union Referendum Bill 2015-16 (http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7249#fullreport)


Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: nichola on November 07, 2016, 17:43:39 PM
Not at all! If you read the post above you will see that Parliament passed a bill for the referendum which in turn passed the power to the electorate. It was decided by the electorate that we should leave therefore there is no reason why parliament should have a vote on Article 50 as the government has a mandate from its people.


No it didn't. They could have legislated for the referendum vote to be binding but they didn't. I don't know why you persist with this nonsense.

What is very concerning is that it is evident that a worryingly large section of the electorate have no idea whatsoever how a parliamentary democracy works.

PS even Farage was forced to admit on the Marr show when he was spectacularly taken down on Sunday that the referendum wasn't binding and that the legal action and result actually ensured that it would be and he should be delighted with the result.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on November 07, 2016, 17:49:35 PM
What's concerning is that so many of the remain camp are still persisting in wanting to overrule democracy by trying their best to overturn the referendum result.

As Farage quite rightly asked that woman :

"What part of LEAVE don't you understand?"

Hopefully the next set of judges will have more sense  :)

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on November 07, 2016, 17:59:22 PM
"What part of parliamentary process don't you understand?"
Would be an appropriate question to Farage, as Nichola alluded to above.

Hopefully the next set of judges will have more sense   :)

Disgraceful statement.  The three judges did their job correctly - it's hardly their fault that government failed to put forward sufficient evidence to refute Gina Miller et al's case.

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on November 07, 2016, 18:03:24 PM
Hopefully the next set of judges will have more sense    :)
So, if you don't like the outcome of a vote you just ask for another one? Can everybody do that or just you? [Not that I want another referendum, of course. Once was bad enough.]
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on November 07, 2016, 19:13:10 PM
Stoop, you could just:


 
"Accept the judgement and move on"




Remember, Parliamentary Sovereignty means PARLIAMENTARY SOVEREIGNTY.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: KKOB on November 08, 2016, 17:34:27 PM
Crown prosecutors are considering a complaint that the Leave campaign misled voters during the EU referendum campaign.

The complaint against Vote Leave and Leave.EU campaigns was submitted by academic experts in electoral law, who suggested “corrupt campaigning practices” were used by campaigners

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-campaigns-crown-prosecutors-cps-complaint-a7403161.html
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on November 08, 2016, 17:55:18 PM
I heard the leader of this protest group talking on Radio 5 this afternoon. This is what his (private) university has to say about him:
 
Professor bob Watt 

 (http://www.buckingham.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Bob-Watt.jpg)
BA, BCL (Oxford), PhD (Essex)

Professor of Law
Professor bob Watt joined Buckingham Law School in September 2011 (bob uses the lower case b for his name).

Yes, quite, he struck me as someone who might be a trifle unhinged.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: KKOB on November 08, 2016, 17:59:27 PM


Yes, quite, he struck me as someone who might be a trifle unhinged.



Quite at home amongst the realms of UK judiciary then.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stuart T on November 08, 2016, 18:01:40 PM
Pretentious prat.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on November 08, 2016, 18:06:23 PM
Amusing alliteration.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on November 18, 2016, 10:14:11 AM
I challenge Brexiters to download and read the free sample of this book  (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Brexit-Happens-Everything-Britains-Divorce-ebook/dp/B01M74JXK5/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1479463789&sr=8-1)(Kindle app on ereader/phone/tablet)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on November 18, 2016, 10:43:46 AM
Hopefully the next set of judges will have more sense     :)
So, if you don't like the outcome of a vote you just ask for another one? Can everybody do that or just you? [Not that I want another referendum, of course. Once was bad enough.]

No - it's not another vote it's an appeal. Everyone has the right to appeal if they believe a judgment is incorrect. It's in our constitution I believe.

However - first it goes to the higher court and that court decides whether an appeal is acceptable. It did and they have.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on November 18, 2016, 10:48:02 AM
Stoop, you could just:


 
"Accept the judgement and move on"




Remember, Parliamentary Sovereignty means PARLIAMENTARY SOVEREIGNTY.

But (and correct me if I'm wrong here) it's the government who are appealing isn't it?

They are not asking for another vote they are asking 11 judges to consider their appeal.

I'm not sure me accepting it will have much influence.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on November 18, 2016, 10:51:12 AM
"What part of parliamentary process don't you understand?"
Would be an appropriate question to Farage, as Nichola alluded to above.

Hopefully the next set of judges will have more sense    :)

Disgraceful statement.  The three judges did their job correctly - it's hardly their fault that government failed to put forward sufficient evidence to refute Gina Miller et al's case.

JF

Tough. I have a right to an opinion and I think those judges got it wrong. Hopefully the next set will see sense and let the government get on with triggering article 50. Then they can start to negotiate our exit from the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on November 18, 2016, 11:31:34 AM
I have a right to an opinion and I think those judges got it wrong. Hopefully the next set will see sense and let the government get on with triggering article 50. Then they can start to negotiate our exit from the EU.

The crucial part of the judgement says: "The most fundamental rule of the UK's constitution is that Parliament is sovereign and can make and unmake any law it chooses...

...the Crown - i.e. the Government of the day - cannot by exercise of prerogative powers override legislation enacted by Parliament"

I'd be interested to know why you think the judges "got it wrong". I'd be delighted if you could inform us (and them) as to which crucial bit of our constitution they managed to overlook. It was not some sort of political judgement. All they did was apply the laws as made by Parliament.

When they lose the Supreme Court appeal, the Government is going to attempt to pass what they are describing as a "bomb-proof" Bill through Parliament in order to allow them to action Article 50. This is how I imagine that will turn out:

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/3e/38/99/3e3899ff295e65c8f544101ab3c9b422.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on November 18, 2016, 12:55:17 PM
Aaaargh! Photo failed.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on November 18, 2016, 12:59:42 PM
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a138/ColwynJones/89b7c397-6620-48cf-9ed1-cacb09daaabd_zpsbzgl7poq.jpg)


{I gave Stoop a curly wig.}
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on November 18, 2016, 13:15:22 PM
it's the government who are appealing
I don't find them at all appealing.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on November 19, 2016, 00:46:48 AM
(https://s21.postimg.org/n0kp968kz/image.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/n0kp968kz/)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on November 19, 2016, 00:55:48 AM
I have a right to an opinion and I think those judges got it wrong. Hopefully the next set will see sense and let the government get on with triggering article 50. Then they can start to negotiate our exit from the EU.

The crucial part of the judgement says: "The most fundamental rule of the UK's constitution is that Parliament is sovereign and can make and unmake any law it chooses...

...the Crown - i.e. the Government of the day - cannot by exercise of prerogative powers override legislation enacted by Parliament"

I'd be interested to know why you think the judges "got it wrong". I'd be delighted if you could inform us (and them) as to which crucial bit of our constitution they managed to overlook. It was not some sort of political judgement. All they did was apply the laws as made by Parliament.

When they lose the Supreme Court appeal, the Government is going to attempt to pass what they are describing as a "bomb-proof" Bill through Parliament in order to allow them to action Article 50. This is how I imagine that will turn out:

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/3e/38/99/3e3899ff295e65c8f544101ab3c9b422.jpg)

http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/referendum-binding.shtml



"The law on invoking Article 50

Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union was inserted into that Treaty by the 2007 Lisbon Treaty. It is often (inaccurately) referred to as “Article 50 of the Treaty of Lisbon”. It entitles any Member State to withdraw from the European Union and sets out (in broad outline) the procedure to be followed. Article 50(1) and the first sentence of Article 50(2) set out in very simple terms how the process of withdrawal is begun:
“1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. ...”
As paragraph 1 above confirms, the constitutional law of each Member State governs how that State shall take a decision to withdraw and who, under its national law, has power to take such a decision. The procedure by which this will done will vary from State to State. For example, where, as in the case of some States, membership of the EU has been embedded into the national constitution, it might be necessary to amend that constitution by some special procedure in order for the State to make a valid decision to withdraw.

The United Kingdom does not have a written constitution which spells out who has the power to take a decision to withdraw from the EU and communicate that decision to the European Council. Therefore, one starts by looking at the general law on who has the power to conclude and withdraw from international treaties. And the general rule is quite clear. Under the UK’s constitution, it is the Crown (the Queinsofar as they relate to future costsen acting under the Royal Prerogative in practice on the advice of government ministers) which has the power to enter into and withdraw from international treaties."
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on November 19, 2016, 08:48:56 AM
Common fallacy.  The UK does indeed have a written constitution. It's just not written down all in one place.

Try reading the judgement again.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on November 19, 2016, 09:45:42 AM
You're beginning to sound a little bit like someone from the opposite side of the argument.

I have a right to an opinion and I think those voters got it wrong.

Hopefully the next set (of voters in a referendum) will see sense

Just saying...

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: KKOB on November 19, 2016, 11:44:54 AM
I think they need to get a room.  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on November 22, 2016, 14:08:28 PM
Remainers (left holding the Brexit baby after the Leavers… left): “WTF?”

Leavers: “We voted Brexit, now You Remainers need to implement it”

Remainers: “But it’s not possible!”

Leavers: “The People Have Spoken. Therefore it is possible. You just have to think positively.”

Remainers: “And do what exactly?”

Leavers: “Come up with a Plan that will leave us all better off outside the EU than in it”

Remainers: “But it’s not possible!”

Leavers: “Quit with the negative vibes. The People Have Spoken.”

Remainers: “But even you don’t know how!”

Leavers: “That’s your problem, we’ve done our bit and voted, we’re going to sit here and eat popcorn and watch as you do it.”

Remainers: “Shouldn’t you do it?”

Leavers: “It’s not up to us to work out the detail, it’s up to you experts.”

Remainers: “I thought you’d had enough of experts”

Leavers: “Remain experts.”

Remainers: “There are no Leave experts”

Leavers: “Then you’ll have to do it then. Oh, and by the way, no dragging your feet or complaining about it, because if you do a deal we don’t want, we’ll eat you alive.”

Remainers: “But you don’t know what you want!”

Leavers: “We want massive economic growth, no migration, free trade with the EU and every other country, on our terms, the revival of British industry, re-open the coal mines, tea and vicars on every village green, some bunting, and maybe restoration of the empire.”

Remainers: “You’re delusional.”

Leavers: “We’re a delusional majority. DEMOCRACY! So do the thing that isn’t possible, very quickly, and give all Leavers what they want, even though they don’t know what they want, and ignore the 16 million other voters who disagree. They’re tight trouser latte-sipping hipsters who whine all the time, who cares.”


https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/politics/hard-brexit-cliff-edge-vision-leaving-eu-without-deal-imagined/
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: KKOB on November 22, 2016, 14:41:03 PM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LnoSykPcGDs/VidCYPU6mDI/AAAAAAAAAcQ/0B36gxzu68I/s1600/calm-down.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stuart T on November 22, 2016, 14:41:53 PM
Villain.....

That could have come from an episode of "Yes Minister".

Very witty, very funny.

Probably a bit true.

Brilliantly done.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on November 22, 2016, 14:57:41 PM
I admit pinched the above one.


Here's one of my own:

May: "We'll not be providing a Running Commentary"

EU: "For the Running Commentary, click here": http://uk.businessinsider.com/david-davis-government-wants-single-market-brexit-article-50-2016-11?r=US&IR=T

Incapable, incompetent, delusional.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on November 22, 2016, 16:12:04 PM
Definitely my last post on this. Circles I do not go around too often  :)

This guy sums it all up for me. This is why I want to leave the EU.

The end  :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZRuIhtC9Mo
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on November 22, 2016, 16:30:25 PM
What a prat!
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on November 22, 2016, 18:20:22 PM
Villain.....

That could have come from an episode of "Yes Minister".
Trouble is that the reality is even sillier than any satire show could write. Dangerous Davis has been over to chat up the MEPs leading the negotiation on the EU side. As he came away they said they hadn't got a clue what he was talking about. This thread has shown why.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: AOK on November 22, 2016, 21:23:34 PM
yawn 8)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on November 28, 2016, 15:17:41 PM
Was anyone else asked if they'd like to leave the EEA?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38126899

No, me neither.

Anyway, I don't know why you're bored, because I'm finding this whole so-called Brexit thing fascinating. Theresa is now so desperate that she has just sought guidance from an elitist, un-elected and downright unapproachable deity. I wonder if God can be bothered to help her unpaint her way out of a corner? I suspect He's actually just got a big bag of popcorn out instead.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on November 28, 2016, 15:24:19 PM
yawn 8)
Were you under the impression that reading this thread was compulsory?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: AOK on November 28, 2016, 16:15:24 PM
yawn 8)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Jacqui Harvey on November 28, 2016, 20:50:18 PM
I am with you A.O.K.  Yawn.   Stopped reading this a while ago, just popped in to see what was happening in post 14.. Yawn.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on November 28, 2016, 22:25:36 PM
Me too - just let them remoan together  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on November 29, 2016, 10:19:56 AM
Simple question, just in case my previous ones were too difficult: Has anyone on this forum ever eaten a cake and then continued to have it?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: sadler on November 29, 2016, 11:12:03 AM
No, but I have had my cake and eaten it too!   :)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: KKOB on November 29, 2016, 11:42:46 AM
Simple question, just in case my previous ones were too difficult: Has anyone on this forum ever eaten a cake and then continued to have it?


(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/af/af2f0f13231d39b6d8572c4e657c4bcbaf3ab6dd70c337d05799a5362ddc1b46.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on December 01, 2016, 11:39:51 AM
Brexit means Brexit? No.

As at today, Brexit means Freedom of Movement (Johnson), access to Single Market and continued EU contributions (Davis)

So remind me why we're leaving?


Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: 1calis on December 01, 2016, 15:50:32 PM
If all these remain then there is no brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on December 01, 2016, 15:58:04 PM
£ up by 2.5% against TL on this very good news. Also up against $ and €.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: davybill on December 02, 2016, 06:36:38 AM
Brexit means Brexit? No.

As at today, Brexit means Freedom of Movement (Johnson), access to Single Market and continued EU contributions (Davis)

So remind me why we're leaving?



Don't believe all you read or hear in the press,
Brexit means Brexit? No.

As at today, Brexit means Freedom of Movement (Johnson), access to Single Market and continued EU contributions (Davis)

So remind me why we're leaving?



[/quote]
Brexit means Brexit? No.

As at today, Brexit means Freedom of Movement (Johnson), access to Single Market and continued EU contributions (Davis)

So remind me why we're leaving?



Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: davybill on December 02, 2016, 06:38:57 AM
Brexit means Brexit? No.

As at today, Brexit means Freedom of Movement (Johnson), access to Single Market and continued EU contributions (Davis)

So remind me why we're leaving?



Don't believe all you read or hear in the press,
Brexit means Brexit? No.

As at today, Brexit means Freedom of Movement (Johnson), access to Single Market and continued EU contributions (Davis)

So remind me why we're leaving?



[/quote]
Brexit means Brexit? No.

As at today, Brexit means Freedom of Movement (Johnson), access to Single Market and continued EU contributions (Davis)

So remind me why we're leaving?



Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: KKOB on December 02, 2016, 08:20:33 AM
Come on davybill, get a grip.  ;)

What point are you trying to make ?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on December 02, 2016, 09:38:10 AM
Come on davybill, get a grip.     ;)

What point are you trying to make ?
He was so impressed by Villain's comment that he wanted us to read it six more times. I think he's angling for a job as Villain's media agent.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on December 02, 2016, 09:52:57 AM
I think what's been reported in the media recently confirms that the current government have very little idea over how to achieve an exit from the EU in an orderly and (to the economy) non damaging fashion. 

Worrying...

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on December 02, 2016, 10:07:28 AM
It would be a step in the right direction if the three ministers supposedly responsible for the farrago would talk to each other before they made their announcements. Good to hear the Government are prepared to think about a range of options though. Maybe.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on December 02, 2016, 10:39:21 AM
Richmond By-election result last night was remarkable. Remember UKIP weren't standing too. Labour lost their deposit and are floundering

What it says to me is that that "Leave" Tory MPs in "Remain" South-east areas are now looking over their shoulders. Theresa May is in a similar type of constituency. As May, like Johnson, seems to be far more interested in her own career than actually standing up for her principles, I think her mind might have been brought sharply into focus. Less chance of a General Election now. Their slim majority has got slimmer.

As I keep on saying, Brexit is fascinating. The Leavers' "magic wand Brexit", just isn't going to achieve a thing. The government is in disarray. May is trying to control the message - except there is no message.

I just wish Leavers would actually enter into some sort of debate about what sort of Brexit they want. I'm still not hearing any. All they do is stumble between denial and rage.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: davybill on December 02, 2016, 11:53:50 AM
Fed up of repeating myself, Brexit means Brexit lol.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on December 02, 2016, 12:32:41 PM
I just wish Leavers would actually enter into some sort of debate about what sort of Brexit they want. I'm still not hearing any. All they do is stumble between denial and rage.

Fed up of repeating myself, Brexit means Brexit lol.

Denial.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on December 02, 2016, 12:41:52 PM
I just wish Leavers would actually enter into some sort of debate about what sort of Brexit they want. I'm still not hearing any. All they do is stumble between denial and rage.

Maybe they simply don't want to debate with you, which is their right.

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on December 02, 2016, 13:24:23 PM
Because of their rage?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: 1calis on December 02, 2016, 16:17:59 PM
Perhaps they do not need to debate because to them brexit means brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on December 02, 2016, 16:24:04 PM
Brexit means brexit means frreedom of movement and access to the single market (perhaps with contributions to the EU). What's all the argument about? Couldn't be clearer. Surely we can all agree with that?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on December 02, 2016, 18:47:06 PM
Richmond By-election result last night was remarkable. Remember UKIP weren't standing too. Labour lost their deposit and are floundering

What it says to me is that that "Leave" Tory MPs in "Remain" South-east areas are now looking over their shoulders. Theresa May is in a similar type of constituency. As May, like Johnson, seems to be far more interested in her own career than actually standing up for her principles, I think her mind might have been brought sharply into focus. Less chance of a General Election now. Their slim majority has got slimmer.

As I keep on saying, Brexit is fascinating. The Leavers' "magic wand Brexit", just isn't going to achieve a thing. The government is in disarray. May is trying to control the message - except there is no message.

I just wish Leavers would actually enter into some sort of debate about what sort of Brexit they want. I'm still not hearing any. All they do is stumble between denial and rage.



Then try reading and listening to what others have said on this very thread.

You might have to extract your head first though.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on December 02, 2016, 18:58:15 PM
Richmond By-election result last night was remarkable. Remember UKIP weren't standing too. Labour lost their deposit and are floundering

What it says to me is that that "Leave" Tory MPs in "Remain" South-east areas are now looking over their shoulders. Theresa May is in a similar type of constituency. As May, like Johnson, seems to be far more interested in her own career than actually standing up for her principles, I think her mind might have been brought sharply into focus. Less chance of a General Election now. Their slim majority has got slimmer.

As I keep on saying, Brexit is fascinating. The Leavers' "magic wand Brexit", just isn't going to achieve a thing. The government is in disarray. May is trying to control the message - except there is no message.

I just wish Leavers would actually enter into some sort of debate about what sort of Brexit they want. I'm still not hearing any. All they do is stumble between denial and rage.

They sound terrified:

Conservative MP and Leave campaigner Michael Gove

"I think one of the striking things about Richmond Park is that it is a part of the country that voted very heavily to remain during the referendum as the rest of the country voted to leave. So given that the Liberal Democrat candidate - and congratulations to her - secured less than half the vote in a  70% Remain constituency, I don't think we can interpret too much from this particular result about Brexit. This was a local by-election with specific factors. Congratulations to Sarah Olney, deep commiserations to Zac Goldsmith but it would be a profound mistake for anyone to over-interpret the result."
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on December 03, 2016, 23:59:54 PM
Perhaps they do not need to debate because to them brexit means brexit.

Comedy.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on December 04, 2016, 02:50:54 AM
Ignore the answers then Villain! Typical lefty.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stopfordian on December 04, 2016, 09:28:51 AM

 Seems pretty simple to me.
 Before the referendum 52% of voters were disenchanted.
 Since the referendum only 48% of voters are disenchanted.
 Sounds like a result for any government to make progress.  8)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on December 04, 2016, 09:31:03 AM
Since the vote over 5 months ago, how are they progressing?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stopfordian on December 04, 2016, 10:08:17 AM

 How would you suggest they progress ?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on December 04, 2016, 10:35:21 AM
The government should state their aims and strategy so we can all have a grown up discussion about them.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: KKOB on December 04, 2016, 13:07:14 PM
...so we can all have a grown up discussion about them.
 

So, you're not going to be involved then.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on December 04, 2016, 13:34:49 PM
Things are looking up. Johnson agrees with Davis that it would be fine to pay for (tariff-free) access to the single market as long as we don't pay "too much". Quite so, I wouldn't want us to pay too much. Predicting currency movements is a risky game but I reckon the dear old pound will be worth more when markets open tomorrow ... unless T'resa stomps her foot and insists she won't pay.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stopfordian on December 04, 2016, 13:55:32 PM
The government should state their aims and strategy so we can all have a grown up discussion about them.


 I'm fairly sure many people had many discussions before the referendum. I know I did.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: 1calis on December 04, 2016, 15:24:50 PM
We can discuss them but we won't decide on them. We already made our decision.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on December 04, 2016, 17:06:12 PM
From that I can can take it you've already had long conversations about how relaxed you'd be for the UK to continue to pay into the EU coffers - even after we've left.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stopfordian on December 04, 2016, 18:13:36 PM
 
 I'm fairly relaxed about most things in life. That doesn't mean I'm unaware of global current affairs.
 It doesn't mean I'm disinterested in what goes on in other people's lives, and it doesn't mean I'm stupid.
 I once sold a house and bought a narrow boat in a place called Poynton. The reason for this was so I could avoid the 'poll tax'. I just moved my boat every 3 months 50 yards down the canal and back.
 Try looking how the result can be used to your benefit instead of being negative about something that really should not be challenged.
 
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stuart T on December 04, 2016, 19:12:00 PM
The narrow boat option sounds idyllic...... especially so if there's some decent fishing to be had.

Looked at the route you would have taken - right alongside the dementia clinic!

Made me smile, imagining you poddling 50 yards up and down outside there every 3 months.

Still a bit envious , though.




Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stopfordian on December 04, 2016, 19:41:10 PM

  ;D, I think most people thought I had dementia fishing the Poynton/Macc canal with a fly rod, I did manage a couple of carp on a fly I lashed up one night.
  Fishing. Now there is a topic worth talking about. How will the B word affect my salmon fishing north of the border?.
  Do you fish in Turkey?. Do you flyfish?. How can I legitimately change brexit means brexit to fishing means more?  8)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stuart T on December 04, 2016, 20:31:02 PM
Hand line only in Turkey - mainly to feed the skipper's cat!

I'm probably the most ham - fisted fly fisherman in Britain but still love to give it a bash. Carp on a fly - wholly impressive.

Ah well - back to the serious Brexit stuff, I guess.

Sorry Villain - went for a wander up tangent alley then.





Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on December 05, 2016, 00:20:13 AM
I guess the Italian result might affect the Euro tomorrow.

Two down ... Next France?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stopfordian on December 05, 2016, 07:54:38 AM

 If the French are their usual bloody minded selves, probably.
 The Supreme Court also begins today. It will be interesting to see which side they come down on   ;).
 The majority, or a few dissidents trying to thwart the government.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on December 05, 2016, 08:40:40 AM
It is supposed to come down on the side of the law.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stopfordian on December 05, 2016, 09:02:30 AM

 ah, yeah, I forgot about the ass..
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on December 05, 2016, 10:40:22 AM
T'resa is taking a mighty risk taking an appeal to the Supreme Court. They may find that the rules on how a country leaves the EU have been determined by the EU (and approved by the UK as a member state) and thus they have to consult the EU Court of Justice in Luxembourg before coming to their decision. That will have Stoop raving about, thrashing on the floor and foaming at the mouth. Hope someone has a mobile close by to record the scene: it will make a viral YouTube hit-of-the-day.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on December 05, 2016, 10:54:23 AM
A non-hysterical guide to Article 50 case (FT)

What the Article 50 appeal before the Supreme Court is — and isn’t — about
David Allen Green

On Monday, the UK Supreme Court will begin hearing a significant constitutional case relating to Brexit and Article 50, known as “Miller” after one of the claimants. Below is a guide to what the case is (and is not) about and why it is so important.

The issues

The primary issue is about the legal means by which the UK government can notify the European Council of its intention to leave the EU under Article 50. The government maintains that it can make the notification by use of the so-called “royal prerogative”.

The High Court of England and Wales, however, declared last month that the notification could not be done by royal prerogative. The implication was that there would need to be an act of parliament. The hearing this week is an appeal by the government of that decision. The High Court decision was unanimous, and three judge bench consisted of the Lord Chief Justice, the Master of the Rolls, and the the leading public law judge, Lord Justice Sales (public law is the term used for the law which regulates what public bodies can and cannot do).

What influenced the High Court in particular was the notion that once the notification has been made, then a direct consequence will be that people (and legal persons such as companies) will lose EU rights that they otherwise would keep and be able to rely on. The judges decided that it is not open to the executive to extinguish such EU rights by use of the royal prerogative.
The Supreme Court appeal, however, will not be a mere re-run of the High Court case. There are two new issues which make the hearing more complex. The first is that the Supreme Court will also be hearing two references from courts in Northern Ireland, which are also dealing with cases about the Article 50 notification. The second is that the devolved governments of Scotland and Wales will intervene, with formal submissions about how the notification (and royal prerogative) should operate in the context of devolution. The Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish aspects of the case go beyond the question of prerogative vs Westminster parliament, and raise issues about the extent the Article 50 notification procedure has to take account of devolution issues and, in respect of Northern Ireland, the Good Friday Agreement.

The hearing

The Supreme Court was only established in 2009. The court has appellate jurisdiction for the three constituent legal systems in the UK: England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. Before 2009 such appeals were heard by the judicial committee of the House of Lords. All current eleven justices of the Supreme Court will hear the appeal. This has never happened before, and the court room has had to have been specially adapted to fit all the judges in. Of the eleven justices, eight come from England and Wales, two from Scotland, and one from Northern Ireland.

The hearing is scheduled to last four days. As the appeal has been brought by the government, the government’s barristers will speak first. The government’s legal team will be lead by Jeremy Wright QC, the attorney general and government minister. Most of the government’s case will be presented by James Eadie QC, an experienced public law specialist. Devolution legal points will be dealt with for the government by Lord Keen QC, the advocate general for Scotland.

The respondents to the appeal — who are for convenience known as the claimants — have two legal teams. The lead claimant’s barrister is Lord Pannick QC, regarded as the UK’s leading public law barrister. The various claimants and interested parties comprise those who will be affected by the decision: UK citizens who will lose EU rights, UK citizens in the EU, EU citizens in the UK, and so on.

All these permutations of affected parties mean that the appeal will cover anyone who may be affected by the Article 50 notification. There will also be senior barristers (or advocates, their Scottish equivalents) addressing the Supreme Court on behalf of the governments of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. It is hard to imagine a more wide-ranging constitutional case.

What the case is not about

If the government loses the Supreme Court case, a bill will need to be passed by Parliament, empowering the prime minister to make the Article 50 notification. This will have to be done soon to meet the prime minister’s March 2017 deadline, yet there is no reason to believe that the government will be unable to do this. Subject to one possibility (which I set out below) there is nothing in this week’s appeal which will necessarily delay any Article 50 notification.

This appeal, therefore, is not about blocking Brexit. The case is instead about the constitutionally correct manner in which the notification to leave the EU should be given. The case is ultimately about constitutional form and process, rather than the substance and merits of the Brexit decision. There is scope, of course, for MPs or peers to amend such Article 50 legislation— insisting, for example, that the government provide further details about its approach to the exit negotiations. The government would prefer not to have this accountability. If the government loses this appeal, Brexit can and will still happen and the judiciary is not trying to undermine it.

One possibility is that the case gets referred to the EU’s court, the European Court of Justice. If so, this would not be an appeal but a request by the Supreme Court for clarification on a disputed but unclear point of EU law. In this case that would probably be about whether the Article 50 notification can be revoked. If the notification can be withdrawn, then the extinction of EU rights would be less direct: there would have to be a further decision by the government in due course whether to revoke the notification that, in turn, can be challenged in the courts. The notification planned for March would not then have so much riding on it.

A reference to the ECJ would no doubt seem ironic and perhaps amusing in the circumstances of this particular case, especially if it is because of a point which would favour the government. The High Court case proceeded on the assumption that the Article 50 notification was irrevocable and conditional. Some legal scholars deny this, and if the government does shift its position on this (which would be attractive in terms of litigation tactics, if not politics) then such a reference is not fanciful. The problem would be this would put back the government’s timetable beyond March, as an reference would take a further nine or so months.

Taking back control

For many years, those in favour of the UK leaving the EU regularly framed their concerns as that it should be the UK parliament and the UK courts which should make fundamental decisions. and not their EU counterparts. This week’s appeal shows the important role of the UK courts and potentially the UK parliament (and the devolved governments) in dealing with constitutional matters. Some supporters of Brexit are anxious about the involvement of the courts and the potential involvement of the UK and devolved legislatures, seeing them as impediments which will delay or even frustrate the UK leaving the EU.

But if “taking back control” is to be done properly then the process should engage the wider UK organs of the state, and not just the executive. After all, it will be those organs of the state which will be responsible for ensuring the success of Brexit. In normative terms, therefore, there can be little doubt that the courts and the legislatures should be involved.

The question before the Supreme Court, however, is not a normative one but a positive one: what is the position as a matter of law? On one hand, the High Court decision and the submissions of the devolved governments would suggest that the government will lose the appeal; on the other hand, one should never underestimate the potency of the royal prerogative in domestic law.

The UK government has already accepted it may not win the appeal. There have been moves to prepare a short bill and to dampen expectations. This contingency planning is welcome and is in contrast to the all-or-nothing mentality which led the government to do almost no planning for what to do in the event of a Leave vote. On balance, the government has the harder job in this week’s appeal. But taking a step back, a few things are worth noticing and celebrating: a fundamental constitutional question dealing with the respective roles of the executive and parliament (and the devolved administrations) will be dealt with openly (with live-stream broadcasting) by the entire bench of the UK’s highest court, with all the legal cases of the parties published, and with claimants and interested parties who represent everybody who could be affected. And even if the government loses the appeal, there is nothing in the case which prevents the giving of effect to the Article 50 notification, and thereby to the referendum result. The legal issue to be decided is form not substance.

So the government cannot just get its way, even with a referendum result. The rule of law and the separation of powers still apply. The courts can still hold the government to account, on the application of those who will be adversely affected by what the government wants to do. The legal challenge will be heard in full glare of open justice.

This is what a working constitution looks like.


Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on December 05, 2016, 11:14:07 AM
The Judges have banned publication of identities of the claimants, because they've received "serious threats of violence"

That's what the hysterical coverage of this case by some newspapers and politicians has gained us. What have we become?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on December 05, 2016, 14:46:21 PM
T'resa is taking a mighty risk taking an appeal to the Supreme Court. They may find that the rules on how a country leaves the EU have been determined by the EU (and approved by the UK as a member state) and thus they have to consult the EU Court of Justice in Luxembourg before coming to their decision. That will have Stoop raving about, thrashing on the floor and foaming at the mouth. Hope someone has a mobile close by to record the scene: it will make a viral YouTube hit-of-the-day.

I won't be thrashing about anywhere. Brexit will happen and the EU will be no more in a few years.

I'm cool about that and whatever the Supreme court decides.

Enjoy your week.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on December 05, 2016, 15:34:09 PM
I guess the Italian result might affect the Euro tomorrow.
It did.  € up 0.67% against $ and £. Bit better than the £ being 10% down the day after our referendum disaster.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stopfordian on December 05, 2016, 17:01:03 PM

 Has anyone bothered to read this topic from the first post ?. I just have.
 Insults and name calling. Bitterness. Tit for tat playground comments. Very little of a positive note.
 No matter what is offered it is met with the above mainly by one unhappy person who for some reason
 cannot get over a need for confrontation.
 Confrontation about Brexit.
 Confrontation about the US election.
 Contributors being constantly berated and browbeaten for voicing their opinion.
 Perhaps we need a rant section for topics like this. Or maybe they just need to be redirected into the
 joke section?
 
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on December 05, 2016, 17:35:48 PM
Has anyone bothered to read this topic from the first post ?. I just have.
You probably need to lie down in a dark place with a damp cloth on your forehead. Did you do it for a bet?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stopfordian on December 05, 2016, 18:34:25 PM
Has anyone bothered to read this topic from the first post ?. I just have.
You probably need to lie down in a dark place with a damp cloth on your forehead. Did you do it for a bet?

 Haha, it was suggested to me  Colwyn, no cash involved. Shame really, I would have made a. few quid on the outcome..
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on December 05, 2016, 18:39:17 PM

 Has anyone bothered to read this topic from the first post ?. I just have.
 Insults and name calling. Bitterness. Tit for tat playground comments. Very little of a positive note.
 No matter what is offered it is met with the above mainly by one unhappy person who for some reason
 cannot get over a need for confrontation.
 Confrontation about Brexit.
 Confrontation about the US election.
 Contributors being constantly berated and browbeaten for voicing their opinion.
 Perhaps we need a rant section for topics like this. Or maybe they just need to be redirected into the
 joke section?
 

Precisely why I cannot be bothered with this one any longer.

 

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on December 05, 2016, 19:51:22 PM
One individual (worryingly I think he realises) has made this so toxic, with his constant hectoring, bullying and superior attitude, he is tailor made for parliament.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stopfordian on December 05, 2016, 20:26:34 PM

 Maybe he/she is a parliamentarian. "When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you"  springs to mind.
 Whichever way I read it two separate political topics have been the same. All I see is intolerance.
 
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on December 05, 2016, 20:41:56 PM

"When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you"

You've met him before then!!
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stopfordian on December 05, 2016, 21:27:47 PM

Yeah, but I have the feckit on my side. Do what you like but if I don't like it, feckit. I'll do what I like.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on December 06, 2016, 11:12:22 AM
I guess the Italian result might affect the Euro tomorrow.
It did.  € up 0.67% against $ and £. Bit better than the £ being 10% down the day after our referendum disaster.

Only a disaster in the eyes of those wanting to be ruled by left wing elitists.



Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on December 06, 2016, 13:40:21 PM
"left wing elitists"? There's a novelty! What will you be telling us about next? Republican monarchists? Herbivorous carnivores? Were you scrabbling about for some sort of insult and ran short of ideas?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stuart T on December 06, 2016, 14:34:58 PM
From The Telegraph

By Allister Heath
7:08PM BST 16 Sep 2015
 
"Far from being a populist, Jeremy Corbyn is a Left-wing elitist who doesn’t really understand the new politics. He lacks the three ingredients required to take on Ukip and the SNP: a willingness to tap into nationalist sentiment, defined broadly (and not necessarily illiberally); the ability to understand, relate to and empathise with ordinary voters, as opposed to minority interests; and a strong, appealing personal brand buttressed by a brilliant communications effort".

Maybe not an oxymoron after all.

It seems that such a person does exist.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on December 06, 2016, 14:54:15 PM
It seems that such a person does exist.
Well, that's if you believe anything printed in The Telegraph. You'll need to do some work to persuade me of that one!
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: KKOB on December 06, 2016, 14:57:07 PM
Yeah, stick to The Sun and The Daily Fail Colwyn.

The truth is out there.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stuart T on December 06, 2016, 15:01:51 PM
Bruce Baugh
From: Philosophy and Literature
Volume 14, Number 1, April 1990
 
In lieu of an abstract, here is a brief excerpt of the content:
Bruce Baugh LEFT-WING ELITISM: ADORNO ON POPULAR CULTURE Although the declared aim of every left-wing movement since 1789 has been the emancipation of broader and broader segments of society, there exists a kind of left-wing elitism. In politics, there is the theory of the "revolutionary vanguard": since the masses are too mystified by ruling-class ideology to see the need for revolution, emancipation can only come from an elite composed of those whose theoretical tools allow them to grasp the contradictions in society ignored by the masses.

See, Colwyn. You can be a snob too if you want to.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stopfordian on December 06, 2016, 15:17:27 PM

 Jeremy Corbin. Described by The Spectator as a " left wing elitist pretending to be a man of the people "
 A member of the Fabian Society which is known as an elitist organisation I believe.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on December 06, 2016, 15:27:01 PM
Wow, Stuart! Theodor Adorno on CBF. I thought everyone had forgotten the Frankfurt School. Obviously he is better known for his analysis of Nazi cultural manipulation, but you've definitely raised the game on this thread. I may need to take it more seriously (but if KKOB is going to join in ... perhaps not).


So, perhaps I need to consider whether the EU is governed, not by Junker and faceless eurocrats, but by left-wing elitists - Mrs Merkel and her lefty mates maybe?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Stuart T on December 06, 2016, 15:37:27 PM
Something, somewhere in the dark corners of my brain about "The Eclipse of Reason"  - seems appropriate now that my own grey cells are becoming somewhat addled.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: KKOB on December 06, 2016, 15:38:36 PM
Wow Colwyn. That's a severe case of the bitchy bug you've caught there.  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on December 06, 2016, 16:06:50 PM
Nothing wrong with bugs.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on December 07, 2016, 20:01:06 PM
MPs back government's Brexit timetable
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38243500


Brexit means Brexit  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on December 08, 2016, 16:17:59 PM
I suppose it was to be expected, brexiters specialise in winning non-binding votes.

The real action was at The Supreme Court over the last few days, anyway. How did you reckon that went?


Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on December 08, 2016, 17:43:05 PM
I suppose it was to be expected, brexiters specialise in winning non-binding votes.

The real action was at The Supreme Court over the last few days, anyway. How did you reckon that went?





Neither you or I will know until the decision is made. However after last night I don't think it matters that much now.

Keep clutching those straws though - it's fun watching  :)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Jacqui Harvey on December 10, 2016, 14:39:12 PM
Interesting piece in our local newspaper from Peterhead. The major white fish port for Europe.  The fishermen here feel very let down by the brexit view of the S.N.P.   This used to be an SNP stronghold with Alex Salmond as our local M.P.   I wonder now, who will get the vote at the next election.  It is easy to see why the Fishers are annoyed when our fishing rights have been taken away by the E.U.
http://www.buchanobserver.co.uk/news/business/snp-stance-on-brexit-viewed-as-complete-betrayal-by-fishermen-1-4313620
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on December 21, 2016, 12:02:12 PM
Brexit Secretary successfully challenges his own government's plan with the help of the European Court of Justice.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38390150

The irony of it all...
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on December 21, 2016, 12:19:59 PM
Lots of comic news this morning. The 18 day wonder Diane James said she had to resign as UKIP leader because she couldn't get her plans past the Old Guard and couldn't keep banging her head against a brick wall. That's odd, I thought all members of UKIP had to be headbangers.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: davybill on December 22, 2016, 08:34:48 AM
I think most politucal minded people are headbangers.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on December 23, 2016, 20:02:42 PM
Seasons Greetings to all the turkeys who voted for Brexmas:

OECD Secretary-General Angel Gurría has said: “Leaving Europe would impose a Brexit tax on generations to come. Instead of funding public services, this tax would be a pure deadweight loss, with no economic benefit.”

..but, but what about the £350m a week for the NHS?

(http://www.oecd.org/media/2016-1/brexit%20final%20chart.png)

http://www.oecd.org/newsroom/oecd-study-finds-britons-will-be-paying-a-heavy-brexit-tax-for-many-years-if-uk-leaves-eu.htm

experts, eh?

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Highlander on December 23, 2016, 20:11:08 PM
Does the OECD have a good record in economic forecasting ?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: madmart on December 23, 2016, 21:32:48 PM
Who's this?

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: KKOB on December 23, 2016, 22:39:54 PM
I wonder who that could be ?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on December 24, 2016, 00:55:09 AM
Meanwhile all the economic data shows that the remain scaremongers are total fools.



Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on December 24, 2016, 09:06:58 AM
Our Glorious Leader in Downing Street has called for people to come together over Brexit in the new year. So there we are Villain and Stoop: your little challenge for 2017. But somehow I suspect it will be .........




(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a138/ColwynJones/89b7c397-6620-48cf-9ed1-cacb09daaabd_zpsbzgl7poq.jpg)



.... business as usual.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on December 24, 2016, 12:14:15 PM
Who's this?

May's Dog's Brexit?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: KKOB on December 24, 2016, 13:05:17 PM
(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/1158287/tumbleweed-o.gif)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on December 24, 2016, 13:12:22 PM
Slow day in Wrexham?
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: KKOB on December 24, 2016, 13:13:13 PM
Very. Working for the next 12 nights. Really looking forward to it.   ;)
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on January 17, 2017, 11:39:17 AM
So today is the day we find out if Brexit really means Brexit.

Markets a little nervous. Pound a little nervous - but whatever happens today is going to be interesting.

If reports are correct she will probably say we will actually get what we voted for.





Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on January 18, 2017, 00:09:39 AM
No 'soft Brexit' then. It would never have worked anyway.

Out means out. Now we have to get on with it.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on January 18, 2017, 08:50:52 AM

Well at least we can agree on the "single market" stuff. This is what I said about it last July. As for 'getting on with it', whatever have they done with Dangerous Davis and Liar Fox? Have they locked up them up in a cupboard in some Westminster cellar?

It strikes me that, over the next couple of years, we are going to see a head-on clash (crash?) between two very different conceptions of what "The Single Market"  means. For Brexiteers it seems to mean being able to sell good & services in the EU without paying tariffs. For EU politicians and bureaucrats it seems to mean a free movement across borders for goods & services, capital and labour. So for Brexiteers it makes some sort of sense to say "We want to be part of the single market, but we want to control immigration so we can't accept free movement of labour". For EU authorities this is ludicrous: "Do you want to join the single market or not? If you do then you get free movement. That's what it is about".

Should provide some interesting negotiations.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Jacqui Harvey on January 18, 2017, 09:27:19 AM
Watched "Country File". On Sunday, very interesting programme where they visited New Zealand.   They were having a conversation with a farmer about his stock and how he went about business.   He said he was  in real trouble when Britian joined with Europe and just dropped N.Zealand.
I remember at the time that N.Zealand and Australia were very annoyed with G.Britian and felt abandoned by us.  I hope they will now forgive.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: kevin3 on January 18, 2017, 10:44:43 AM


  A relative in Perth, Australia had a huge cattle ranch at the time we joined the Common Market and all his meat was shipped refridgerated

  to the UK. This was stopped by our Government and his business  went to the wall. The Australian Government set up emergency

  compensation funding but he was only getting "pence per pound" for his meat.He came over here to try to find direct markets for his meat

  but he was blocked by officialdom. The UK did the dirty on a lot of Commonwealth countries. His men used to use light aircraft to check

  on the cattle. They all lost their jobs, the aircraft and cattle were sold at a loss, a lot of his land was sold at a loss, and until the day he

  died he was very bitter about the UK Government .
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on January 18, 2017, 10:56:43 AM
On the other hand, it was very good for UK sheep farmers who produced only 40% of UK sheep meat when we joined the EU but today the UK is very nearly self-sufficient with good exports of the lower quality meat that UK shoppers tend not to buy.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Jacqui Harvey on January 18, 2017, 10:59:03 AM
I think a lot of British people, perhaps those younger ones, do not know how badly we treated Australia and N.Zealand when we joined the E.U. 
I remember my Mum used to always buy New Zealand lamb and always thought it the best.

However, I really am so fed up with people who want to go over and over the fact that they lost the vote and cannot come to terms with this fact.  Why not move on and stop moaning.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on January 18, 2017, 12:19:23 PM
But we won't be members of the single market or customs union. However that does not mean we cannot trade with Europe without tariffs.

Last time I checked putting a tarrif on imports and exports was massively in our favour cost wise but that doesn't mean we have to go down that route. I'm sure France and Germany will push for a free trade agreement with us as its in their interest. Their problem is that smaller members might veto it.

We now need to get on with things and invoke article 50. The sooner the better IMO.

Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: villain on January 18, 2017, 14:40:54 PM
Supreme Court ruling on Tuesday.

Could be most interesting.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: Colwyn on January 18, 2017, 15:03:40 PM
No it won't. Unless watching paint drying leaves you exhausted with excitement.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on January 18, 2017, 15:48:24 PM
From Mr Fawkes :


The EU’s Common External Tariff comprises 12,651 different taxes and quotas imposed on goods from the rest of the world. This is what the Customs Union amounts to, a protectionist barrier to free trade with the 162 countries outside the EU. Don’t fall for the hype that it reduces trade barriers.

Garlic has a 200% external tariff to protect French farmers, tariffs double the price of sugar cane imported by Tate & Lyle from outside Europe. The policy was designed by the EU to boost beet sugar producers in 19 EU countries – at the expense of companies like Tate & Lyle who use cane sugar instead. Some US jeans face a 26% tariff, shoes face 17% tariffs to protect Italian cobblers. Some agricultural products, e.g. beef and dairy, have very substantial tariff rates, 54 dairy products alone have tariff rates of more than 75%. Just a few examples out of thousands showing how British consumers’ best interests are sacrificed to protect European producers from global competition…

Regional deals tend to divert trade rather than create it. Although they do lower some barriers, most do nothing to tackle the highest tariffs and each deal tends to enshrine the preferences of its largest members, making it harder to bring regional blocks together within a cohesive set of globally liberalised rules. The EU’s Customs Union only liberalises internal trade within the EU. Free trade will allow us to import raw materials from outside the EU at lower cost and without the tariffs designed to prop up inefficient European industries and high cost agriculture. The single market is really an internal market for 10% of the world’s population, the global market is a much bigger opportunity to be seized…
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on January 18, 2017, 15:51:16 PM
Supreme Court ruling on Tuesday.

Could be most interesting.

Won't make any difference at all. It's going ahead whatever the ruling.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: JohnF on February 06, 2017, 14:22:15 PM
Some interesting data obtained by the BBC in respect of voting patterns in the referendum.

Age, level of educational and ethnicity appear to be the main factors that decided folks vote.

Full article here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034), worth a read.

JF
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on February 19, 2017, 15:03:12 PM
Some interesting data obtained by the BBC in respect of voting patterns in the referendum.

Age, level of educational and ethnicity appear to be the main factors that decided folks vote.

Full article here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034), worth a read.

JF

Yes very interesting. Just proves the theory that the young, highly educated people are actually stupid  ;)

Well we've passed the Supreme Court hurldle and the Commons hurdle. Now onto the unelected House of Lords who, if they vote down Brexit will be signing their own resignations.

Worrying however that quite a few of them are receiving lovely little pensions provided by the EU yet do not have to declare this prior to the debate.

Will they have the balls to deny the will of the people? I doubt it.
Title: Re: Brexit means Brexit?
Post by: stoop on March 13, 2017, 23:04:49 PM
...and so it passed. The PM can now officially trigger article 50 and start negotiations to remove the UK from the EU.