Author Topic: Article in Daily Mail  (Read 4753 times)

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Offline yabanci

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Article in Daily Mail
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2010, 11:08:45 AM »
I've always wondered what happened to David Icke,seems like he changed his name. :)



Offline cinders

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Article in Daily Mail
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2010, 14:00:16 PM »
Colwyn also has my thanks, after reading this article his comments  made me look closer at the contacts and how he accessed these individuals. Easing my thoughts on this article and what ? the future holds here in Turkey for other nationalities.
C
 

Offline Colwyn

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Article in Daily Mail
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2010, 16:08:25 PM »
Thanks for appreciative comments folks. But I should warn that, just because the article is nonsense, doesn't mean that there is no cause for concern over issues such as Erdogan's, and the AKP's, possible tendencies towards authoritarianism. Western friends of Turkey will watch careful their relationship with what, up to now, has been an admirably free press. The Ergenekon business continues to be troubling and is really murky water.

The head covering issue is complex. If you go to Mugla city market you will certainly see the vast majority of country women selling their produce wearing head covering; but Mugla has the reputation of being one of the most left-radical provinces in Turkey. I certainly don't think that many AKP politicians get elected in the province; it isn't a hotbed of fundamentalism; it is Kemalist to its roots. On the other hand, in the bars and restauants of tourist resorts and in the business districts of large cities you will not see many covered women. Even in Konya in Central Anatolia - known as the most religious city in Turkey - I was surprised how many women were not covered. I have also seen burkas in the unfashionable (poorer) suburbs of Istanbul. It is worth considering the connection of this with the migration of many hundreds of thousands of Turks there from the Eastern provinces of Turkey. In East, so I am told, the wearing of heavy covering is traditional amongst the country people. It might also be worth considering the relationship between poverty and religion identified by one of the greatest European social philosophers: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people" (Karl Marx, of course). It seems to me that the "skinny scarves" are worn by a different group in society. Young, middle class and affluent. People who make a now-fashionable choice.

Does all of this suggest imminent fundamentalist Sharia revolution? Not to me it doesn't; you may disagree. You can justifiably complain that I haven't produced evidence in this post to support what I say. But I am writing a response to a forum topic; not making a living as a journalist. If I wanted to get this published in the press I would certainly back it up with evidence and references (i.e. I would do the job properly). But you can read well-informed, reflective, well-researched articles on these issues every week if you look at Turkey's English-language online newspapers. I am forced to say that even Today's Zaman - much though I disagree with its politics, which it certainly doesn't hide - does carry articles that are informative. I have also been trying to read Orhan Pamuk's novel Snow set in Kars in Eastern Turkey that delves deeply into the head covering issue. I have to warn you that I am finding it hard going, but am trying to perservere. It you want to persue these issues I suggest these are a better starting point than the Mail.

Offline kayakebab

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Article in Daily Mail
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2010, 17:37:54 PM »
I sent the link to a Turkish friend of mine, who has lived in UK many years and is an avid follower of Turkish politics

here is his opinion:

Yes unfortunately Turkey is in a mess and EU and US are supporting this islamist thinking they are our moderate islamist and they are doing a lot of business with them but we the people suffer their stupit calculations just like in Iraq and Afganistan. I dont care much about Hitchens brothers but sadly he is spot on this time!

Offline sirroamalot

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Article in Daily Mail
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2010, 11:11:10 AM »
To Colwyn and anyone else who I assume has never been to truly Islamic states such as Iraq or Afghanistan I would say go there before writing to agree with Colwyn's comments.

I have spent time in both of those places, maybe too much time, but I can see looking around the countryside and towns that the Islamc influence in Turkey is very strong. I have looked into the recent history of this country and have a good idea where Erdogan's government is going.

Recently, whilst trying to get a "feel" for the place, my partner and I drove as far as Denizli across to Bodrum and back to Fethiye. I was suprised at the poor state of the roads, especially those in the country. But even more surprised by the fact that nearly every roadside prayer place was being rehabilitated. There seemed to be mile after mile of "mini" mosques with their new paint and shiny windows. Yet the roads are falling apart and from what I can see people out there still live an almost third world existence. This mirrors so much the countries in which I did my tours.

As much as you think that Peter Hitchens is a "scaremonger" you people better believe that Turkey is going East and nothing short of a military coup or radical change of goverment will stop it. As for Turkey entering the Euro, I my not be a part of your system but even I can see what a total disaster that would be. It will never happen.


My visit to Turkey has been longer than the last and from what I see  there is a whole change coming and this will affect all regardless of race or creed. I came here looking to buy a vacation home, maybe even turn it permanent. Having seen what I have, I got to say "no thanks".

I will be glad to return to the real land of the free having experienced a part of Turkey that to me represents the whole.Some may disagree,in fact I am sure that many will, but that is what makes us. We still have the freedom to do so, I cannot see this happening in the future here in Turkey

Offline maximumtom

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Article in Daily Mail
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2010, 14:46:26 PM »
Robert.  What Colwyn was pointing out was the fallaciousness of the proffered arguments, not that there isn't an underlying problem.  However, if there is a problem, it needs to be pointed out with evidence and a journalist has a duty to provide this evidence.  One man's observations are not sufficient ( especially if he has an axe to grind and 'looks' for things to support his views).

Offline Colwyn

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Article in Daily Mail
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2010, 15:07:57 PM »
I don't think there is any disagreement about Islamic influence being strong in Turkey; 99.9% of the population is Muslim and for centuries the Ottoman Empire was the caliphate for the whole of the Mediterranean from the Balkans to Morocco. Roadside prayer houses are being refurbished. As I understand things these are built and maintained by the vakif - religion charitable foundations that have existed in Turkey for hundreds of years. Obviously some of their funds are recently contributed but much has been gifted many years ago. I don't really see the significance of funds being spent refurbishing these places, nor the fountains that are roadsides and outside cemeteries. That is the purpose of vakif funds.

The vakif are not responsible for roads; this is the responsibility of government. I have driven many thosands of miles around Turkey and find that the majority of main routes are pretty good. If you go via the back tracks in moutainous country, which I do, then things can get very dodgy - but not as much so as it was as little as five years ago. But travelling around Bodrum or Denizli is fine - at least it was last time I drove to these two places - with many of the routes of relatively new dual carriageway. Indeed, the most frustrating thing about driving in Turkey is the almost incessant refurbishment of the roads; they are being dug up all the time to improve and widen.

In any case, it is something a leap to go from observing that mosques are freshly painted and that some roads are in poor condition to the notion that Turkey is on the brink of fundamentalist revolution. As I said in my previous posts there are issues that are cause for serious concern about where Turkey is heading under the present government, and have been ever since it was first elected in 2002. I don't think complacent is in order; but more do I think there is any reason to panic.

Perhaps Hitchens' next article will be based on five people he has talked to in New York who point to the rise of extreme fundamentalist Christianity in the USA, who support the increasingly hysterical radical right. From which he can predict that there will be coup that overthrows the Obama government and installs Sarah Palin in the White House.



« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 15:13:46 PM by Colwyn »

Offline Scunner

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Article in Daily Mail
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2010, 15:16:38 PM »
It does appear that sirroamalot's love of Turkey evaporated and was replaced by a mortal fear of revolution since the day someone working at Dalaman Airport took a quick shufti in his suitcase :D

Offline cenk

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Article in Daily Mail
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2010, 15:31:35 PM »
I couldn't read all. But it is strange that he chosed Fatih region of Istanbul. It is a place that mostly conservative muslims live there for ages, it is not a new thing. He tried to show Turkey is turning to more conservative Islamic country recently. If he went to other parts of Istanbul, he could see totally different views.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 15:32:38 PM by cenk »

Offline mike A

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Article in Daily Mail
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2010, 18:28:15 PM »
I have traveled extensively in Iran, Afghanistan and the tribal areas of Pakistan and although the Islamic influence in eastern Turkey is strong I see no real comparison to the aforementioned
countries. I think you have overstated the case.




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