Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
Information and Services in Turkey Section => Health & Healthcare => Topic started by: Rimms on December 24, 2013, 16:04:53 PM
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Here is the feedback from the recent clarification meeting held between the SGK & the Consulate. It's more than a bit worrying for some :
http://issuu.com/ukinturkey/docs/report_on_our_meeting_with_sgk_offi#
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Looks like another trip to the SGK office for me - in order to clarify if Gill is covered :(
In our blue books it says "emekli" for me - which is correct but "finans assistan" (finance assistant) for Gill as that is what she has done all her life so she thought that would be the most appropriate response and if our circumstances were to change that is what she would likely do again - but currently she is "retired" at 52 - and doesn't work through choice so is she covered or not ???
Have to say - fully expected this after my original posts on this subject a few weeks ago :-X
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I read it as I am covered for another 2 and abit years,as is Kaz. After that Kaz has to take outSSK in her own right and I will ha e to take a private insurance for myself :-(:-(:-(
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I think you can be classed as retired (Emekli) on your residency but you need to confirm that you are not in receipt of a UK State Pension, in which case your are eligible to be in the SGK.
I'm retired but receive an occupational pension and so as far as I can see I'm still eligible?
Either way, it's a worry if you are over 65 as it appears you can't be in the scheme?
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That's how I read it - but if you put down "retired" on your application as I did - we will still have to go to the SGK office to make our signed declarations that we are not receiving a state pension.
If they want reciprocal agreements - do we in the UK turn foreign residents away from our health service when they are at pension age? (and may need it most)
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I would certainly use that as a bargaining point, from what I understand, there are about 500,000 Turks in the UK yet only around 35,000 Brits resident in Turkey. It's obvious who has most to loose
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I do wonder if this might have some more twists and turns but in the meantime it would be useful if someone could get a version of the statement approved and then others can use it?
We are not back for a few weeks - but if all they want is a signed statement to put on file it might help some.
However the bigger issue of retirees and their provision is one that needs taking up the line sooner rather than later as some form of lobbying needs to take place and quite honestly you would have thought that someone representing us at the meeting would have thought of the repercussions there and then and raised some obvious questions ???
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Well that leaves those of us who ARE receiving state pension, live here full time and have paid into SGK from Jan 2012 in a pretty poor position. Are we to keep on paying in the hope that they will sort it out or what? Its only a couple of months ago that we signed a form to stay IN the scheme, nothing was said then about all this. Just what the **** are the British Consulate doing to represent us - bugger all by the look of things.
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I would still hold your breathe as the person who originally reported this - as happening to him and his wife stated that they had to have 2 separate policies with SGK as opposed to the one they had been paying for a few years - thus doubling his cost.
That kind of makes sense to me - no subsidy - but kicking people out - without giving them another option - does not make sense - so maybe this has a few more twists ........
(but I do think the British Consul need to think this through and then make representation stating that many retired people will not be able to "jump" into an affordable scheme or any at all - with existing conditions - so what happens then???)
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Perverse I know, but this is the only benefit I can see from the increase/s in the age of entitlement to UK state pension. :(
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I feel sorry for those in receipt of their UK state pension and are wishing to apply for the new 'permanent residence' having been here continuously for 8 years. Part of the conditions for your permanent residence is that you have a health insurance. If you can't afford or even can't get private health insurance then it seems your only option is to leave the country?
I have it on very good authority that the consul are fully aware of the negative effects of enforcing this legislation will have on many UK citizens living in Turkey and we can expect further clarification or feedback following the holiday.
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See the following link to fully understand the level of feelings concerning this latest update :
https://m.facebook.com/ukinturkey
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I could not read the original post (old age/finger trouble) for anybody else with the same problem see http://www.yellali.com/news/article/38/sgk-latest-updates
Happy new year.
DonM
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There is one statement that needs clarification that would put a lot of peoples minds at rest.
"The Consulate have pointed out that this does not apply British nationals in this situation who have lived out of the UK for over 6 months."
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The preceding paragraph to that statement talked about how Turkey believes that anyone who is retired and on a state pension is entitled to healthcare from their own country and of course the rule is that you can't be part of SGK if covered elsewhere.
I think the statement was from our consulate pointing out that this is not the case for British Nationals once they have been outside of the country for more than 6 months.
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That's the way I read it too Rimms.
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This is the full paragraph with the statement, if you look at the original document it is not quite worded the same (this is from YellAli). I don't see any other way of reading it other than if you have been out of the UK for 6 months or more it does not apply??
"Retired and RECEIVING a UK state pension
For anyone who is in receipt of a UK state pension they are no longer entitled to benefit from healthcare under the scheme.
This rule was written into the 2010 laws on SGK but has only just been enforced. The reasoning behind excluding pensioners from the scheme was based on the ruling that nationals of those countries who have signed a Reciprocal Health Agreement with Turkey automatically benefit from their own country’s health scheme on receipt of a state pension and whilst residing in Turkey.
The Consulate have pointed out that this does not apply British nationals in this situation who have lived out of the UK for over 6 months."
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My previous answer still applies? Maybe I'm reading it wrong? It's the consulate pointing out that Britons that have been away from the UK for more than six months are not part of any reciprocal agreement.
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George, there is no reciprocal agreement yet. If you have been out of the UK more than 6 months you are not covered by NHS, even if in receipt of state pension.
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A further summary from Kalkan Turkish Living News:
http://kalkan.turkishlocalnews.com/portal/kalkan-news/337438-sgk-health-insurance-for-foreigners-thrown-into-chaos
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A good summary but depressing reading for many people.
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A couple of our friends,went for medicals for the SGK last. Week ,at the Devlet,
They were turned down because of poor eyesight they explained they have glasses
To combat that but made no differerance,,after paying 50lira for the English speaking
Tourist office chap to take them round and further charge of 450 lira for health checks,,
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This is ridiculous - it confirms my thoughts that I wrote on here 12 months ago when I said "it feels like a memo has been sent out from the top saying - we really don't want these people on the scheme so do what you can to discourage them"
On another note - I see amongst the many tax increases announced today one is the increase of the minimum wage (quoted as 11%) - and as I believe SGK premiums are based on a formula related to minimum wage - it will now increase next time around :-(
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Thank you Marggie for that link to the Kalkan Paper, having just read it all, it is the most comprehensive run through of this whole fiasco I have yet found.
As the article says "what have / are the British Consulate doing for us Brits". If they had ironed all these points out in the first place we would not be in this mess now, and many of us would NOT have bothered to join in the first place had we not have been so misled as to what we were getting.
We have not paid Decembers' premium and will wait to see what flops by the end of January, if we aren't getting what we signed up for we are off to the SGK office with our Pension Letters and they can chuck us out.
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It is very worrying for everybody, we have about 15 months to run on our residency and will have to think very seriously what we will do then. Reducing our time in Turkey and using a Visa is a consideration, but that is being interpreted in the usual shambolic manner at the moment so will have to wait and see what transpires.
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We don't have much choice but to suck it and see, we live here and have no home in the UK. Might be time to start looking for a different retirement destination.
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That is so sad Leeglo, this is such a beautiful country loved by many but they are making it so difficult for us to be here now. We ask, and expect nothing, from the country but to be allowed to live here and to contribute in our small way to the economy. As Scunner has said, things that we found quaint at the beginning eventually start to rankle. It just beggars belief how things are just brought in without any forward planning and then they have to react to the fall out.
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So true Marggie and it always seems to be the yabanci left in the dark trying to make sense of the latest new rules, and paying the price.
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The British Consul office have a great deal to feel embarrassed about - they should have been more communicative from the outset in 2010.
Let's hope they surprise us pleasantly next time but even if it is not good news people would rather know where they were up to do they can plan and make informed decisions.
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In time, this will be resolved one way or another and I'm sure that it won't be at the expense of people needing to leave the country. If the consul can't sort this mess out, and they should be able to considering there are something like 500,000 Turkish Nationals enjoying NHS cover in the UK. It may take one or two enterprising insurance companies to pick up the opportunity and run with it. When I was working for a medium sized company in the UK, we put out to tender for private health cover for our 500 employees, each company responded with a clause in their offer that would exclude previously known medical conditions, after a little bit of negotiation one of the insurers offered to drop this condition and soon most of the others followed suit.
Making it financially viable for a company to offer cover, especially to an older and ageing set of members depends on the numbers of people in the scheme, if 10 different insurers try to do it then it will never work, however if one or two companies can do so then there is a ready made market of some 50,000 UK expats and god knows how many German, Dutch & Russians who must be also in a similar position with SGK.
I'd be happy to go and talk to Axa if anyone thinks it's a good idea?
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Well Rimms there would be no harm in putting out some feelers. If they could offer a joint married couple cover for around £90 per month (roughly equivalent to SGK) with no age restriction, then I think a lot of people would be interested.
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Try getting cover from Axa when you are over 65!
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The lady at the brokers next to McDonalds - very helpful - Dina I think her name was - told us a couple of years ago that Axa wouldn't touch me as I was 60.
The only company that would take s 60 yr old was Anadolu - and I was told premiums would increase quite a lot each year and "rocket" if I ever claimed !
Maybe things have changed in 2 years but it wasn't encouraging at that time hence we joined SGK :-(
On a positive note I think there are still some "twists and turns" to run with SGK which will eventually improve the position although that doesn't help many people facing lots of stress and worry at the moment.
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So what will happen to people who contributed to SGK a couple of years ago and who since then have developed a condition that requires life long treatment, presently funded by SGK. Some of the treatments are not available in the UK. It must be extremely worrying. Added to that there could be changes to many things within Turkey after the elections later this year. Maybe Erdogan could come to the UK and run things for a while ;)
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I called into the insurance company today and to be honest, it doesn't sound good. They told us that it's almost impossible to get private health insurance after the age of 59 and most companies will require you to leave the scheme by your 65th birthday.
It occurred to me that the regulation only states that you need 'health insurance' it doesn't stipulate whether that is fully comprehensive insurance or simply a commitment to pay up to an agreed sum. The outcome is that the clerk is going to approach the seven different companies who they deal with to ask if they would wish to propose a scheme.
We also called into the Esnaf and asked if they would raise the issue at their next management meeting and suggested that they might wish to propose a scheme that guaranteed either full or partial cover, they have agreed to get back once they have discussed it.
I also see the consul are now trying to secure the date for a follow up meeting, let's wish them well.
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Was chatting with a friend last night, she is in her 60's and took out private insurance about 6 months ago, cost around 1500tl for the year.
It covers in patient treatment only ( pretty standard )
She said the office was in a little alleyway between what used to be collezione shop, where the horrible change man used to sit.
Unfortunately she couldn't remember the name of the company it's with. Might be worth whoever's in town next going in and making some enquiries.
I might be down that way on Friday and don't mind doing some research if no ones down there before that.
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We just had a letter this morning from SGK, or should I say my husband has. From Google translate I gather it is about me being covered, looks like I would need to register. It also mentions pensions and asks my husband to go to the office. Has anyone else had one of these letters and been to the office to get the low down?
It leaves us with a problem now, do we go and tell them we are BOTH on pension and therefore are not entitled to be in the scheme, and just tell them to stick it, or do we wait for the Consulate to get on with their meeting and see what comes of it?
They tell you nowt for months then pick the worst possible time to start investigating, i.e. while you are waiting for clarification from the top brass.
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It's a difficult problem but you might be better off knowing now rather than a time when you may be needing emergency treatment only to find that you aren't covered.
I would like to think that if our consulate officials are able to turnaround this terrible decision by the Turkish government then anyone excluded because of it will be reinstated into the scheme.
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Thanks for the input Rimms. After much discussion, we have decided to "postpone" a visit to the SGK office until after we see the outcome of the Consulate meetings next week. We haven't paid Decembers' premium nor do we intend to until it is clear whether receiving a British State Pension excludes us from the scheme or not.
Then I will have consider whether I want to join and pay double the premiums we initially signed up for or not. To be honest we are seriously considering both opting out altogether and going back to the "keep a sum aside" system we had for our first 4 years here.
It doesn't give you any peace of mind, the reason we joined, when you don't know from one month to the next if you are covered or not. They have already had around 5 thousand lira from us and we haven't (fortunately) needed medical care.
You are left thinking what will be the next thing, could be you pay for years and then get diagnosed with something "they" deem as chronic and end up not covered for it.
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Mrs Tickets went through all the SGK medical checks at the Develet yesterday, and so we went down to the SGK offices first thing this morning to complete the sign up.
'Are you retired?' we was asked by the clerk (through the interpreter we took along). Mrs Tickets began to say we were, but I quickly corrected the situation saying no we were not retired, just not working, and we were certainly not drawing the UK state pension.
After a bit of humming and ahhing, reluctantly, it appeared, she agreed.
When she saw/heard that Mrs T was joining the scheme, and I would be her dependant spouse. She then said that I needed to provide evidence of no existing health problems (I don't) and that I too would need to take the SGK medical examination at the Devlet. And the whole application thing came to a halt then. So much for it only needs one of you to undertake the medical, and indeed pay the expense of taking it!!
I have come to the same conclusion as Ian, somebody at the top, or some point in between, has issued an edict that they do not want us, and they are attempting to put up as many hurdles as possible to stop people joining the scheme and if at all possible force them out of the scheme too. Does anyone know how to contact the Consulate, ideally through e-mail, so I can update them on my experience in the SGK office in Fethiye, as requested in their document
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USB - if you scroll through this link you will see a topic on the consulate website where they are actually asking for feedback to take to their next meeting:
https://m.facebook.com/ukinturkey
As regards the "plot" - I have repeated this on Facebook and concluded there could well be an incentive as well !
Not sure but I suspect it is a "local" issue and could be just misinterpretation of instructions from Ankara / sheer bloody mindedness / dislike of foreigners or just plain ignorance! Either way it doesn't help!
I still believe things we hear from the Ortaca office are more in keeping with the correct implementation and they appear to be saying it is not about being booted out when "retired" it is about paying individually as the dependent when receiving a state pension can afford to pay themselves.
We will look for to the next update from UK in Turkey with anticipation ;)
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After reading your post Mr Tickets, I have a couple of questions. As you are not on state pension were you going to be allowed as a dependent on your wifes' SGK, (as was the original deal) or did they say you had to join and pay separately?
Is the young man at the SGK office who speaks English no longer available, as I see you took a translater with you? and lastly which translater did you use please.
The more stories I read the more attractive opting out altogether is looking.
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The idea was based on only one having to 'take' the medical, Mrs T, we would then make the application in her name and I would be the 'dependant'. Not a problem we thought as others have done exactly that in the last few months. She told us they needed to know that I did not have any pre exisiting problems, this was something new. If it had been known beofre things could well have been different in what we done.
If there was an English speaker he was either:
a) not in
b) his services were not being offered - although unlikely perhaps that he would given we had a transalator friend
c) he was dodging the bullet and keeping out of things, as I said it was not as though they were busy we were the only ones in! The whole building looked like it was staffed by Park keepers!!
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Thanks Mr Tickets. There was a guy upstairs who spoke very good English the last time we went, we've just been informed today that his office is now occupied by a lady, who also speaks English.
From what you are saying it looks like only pensioners are being asked to register separately, though on the other hand, they are also saying that pensioners (those in receipt of state pension) are not eligible to join SGK anyway - confused ? You will be LOL.
Still gonna wait and see what the Consulate meetings throw up I think.
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Consulate meeting postponed while the SGK get their ducks in a row ...
Link to Consulate FB page https://www.facebook.com/ukinturkey?fref=ts
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After a bit of searching around I have found the email address of Jeremy Hunt, the UK Minister of Health. For those of you that are now in limbo regarding SGK, please send him an email outlining your concerns and requesting him to fast track a reciprocal agreement.
huntj@parliament.uk
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Has a new date now been arranged for the SGK/Consulate meeting?
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Has a new date now been arranged for the SGK/Consulate meeting?
Yes they are working on a new date to agree when they will let us have a definite date that they are going to meet, so that they can take back the issues already raised and any possible new ones... Phew have I missed anything?
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After a bit of searching around I have found the email address of Jeremy Hunt, the UK Minister of Health. For those of you that are now in limbo regarding SGK, please send him an email outlining your concerns and requesting him to fast track a reciprocal agreement.
huntj@parliament.uk
Autoreply - He only answers constituency matters - all other enquiries to DOH contact us page >:(
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Maybe some positive news??
http://issuu.com/ukinturkey/docs/sgk_update-amendment_to_legislation
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That is great news and should allow people now to get on with their retirement without this unnecessary worry.
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The "key" phrase is:
The proposed amendment would allow all British nationals in receipt of a UK state pension to continue to be eligible for healthcare under SGK. However, a person in receipt of such a pension could not be a dependant on their spouse’s membership but must hold individual membership. This is the same rule which applies to Turkish Nationals.
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Looks like, subject to the secondary legislation, that we will have equal treatment with the Turks on this point. Mind you it still does not answer why they will not allow Mrs Tickets and myself access to SGK (non retired) without us BOTH having to have a medical - see earlier post - when all Turks (and indeed many Brits) can do it with only one having the medical and the other spouse joining on the policy.
Looks like we will have to go back to SGK and argue it again, any tips from anyone the best person at the SGK to speak/escalate to would be? Or indeed any top tips for getting things sorted out with them at all, our last experience is not to be repeated!
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I feel ıt should be the same for all ex pats each pay theır own SGK.The Turkısh only go on theır partners SGK ıf they do not work. We cant work and on aquırıng our resıdency we state we can afford to live here and support ourselves. Oh dear have I opened another can of worms.
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I have to say Quackers, your response makes no sense to me. My wife obviously doesn't work, she's too young to receive both her state or occupational pension and so she's a dependant, like many Turkish women who do not go out to work. So the argument that she should pay doesn't stack up in our case.
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Does anyone know if we still have to go to the office with a translator to confirm we are not receiving pensions from the UK?
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The "key" phrase is:
The proposed amendment would allow all British nationals in receipt of a UK state pension to continue to be eligible for healthcare under SGK. However, a person in receipt of such a pension could not be a dependant on their spouse’s membership but must hold individual membership. This is the same rule which applies to Turkish Nationals.
I think the key WORDS are "proposed amendment" and "would allow". Nothing has been confirmed as yet.
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So if I read that correctly, when I reach state pensionable age my wife can continue to be my
'dependant' in SGK terms until her state pension comes in 5 years later ????
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The system is dıscrımınatıng agaınst expat pensıoners. Those not ın receıpt of a pensıon must have a joint ıncome of some sort ( bank ınterest on savıngs etc) so I feel that this ıncome should be recognised the same as pensıon income and all should pay ındıvıdual SGK payments not just pensıoners. Ex Pats do not come under the way the system ıs applıed to Turkısh people, whıch ıs ıf only one person works the other members of the famıly join under that SGK ınsurance payment. When both work both pay. If neıther work they get Socıal Securıty to help pay for ıt. We cant work so thıs part of the system does not apply to ex pats. To make ıt faır for all ex pats all should pay ındıvıdual SGK or revert back to one pays and partner goes on same SGK ınsurance. At the momnt they are classıng the UK pensıon as a work ıncome whıch it ıs not. When a Turkısh person retıres and recives theır pensıon what happens about theır SGK ınsurance.I would be interested to know.
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So are you saying that none of the Turkish SGK members have any savings on which they receive interest?
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The Social Security Institution (SGK) will no longer cover patients' expenses at private hospitals on official holidays and Sundays...
http://www.todayszaman.com//news-343697-state-excludes-holidays-from-private-health-services-coverage.html
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It seems the motto for the SGK team is "if it's not broken, try to fix it"
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If it's broken on a Sunday, drag it around till Monday.
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where is this going to end? some clarification would be more than helpful. anybody?