Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
General Topics => The Debating Chamber => Topic started by: johntaylor49 on October 19, 2013, 11:41:05 AM
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With the Banking Crimes (I don't say crisis or scandal -- its crime!), and the lack of trust in fair play in business with "redundancy" used as a weapon by greedy entrepreneurs and total lack of trust in the laws, is it time for a resurgence of "Intelligent" Unions to represent the working people?
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is it time for a resurgence of "Intelligent" Unions to represent the working people?
I don't understand what you're getting at.
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is it time for a resurgence of "Intelligent" Unions to represent the working people?
I don't understand what you're getting at.
me neither
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Count me in :(
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So, that makes four of us.
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An 5, what point are you trying to make ?
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I would think he means - the current coalition government in the UK has gone too far in supporting / turning a blind eye to blatant capitalism with big business having little or no respect for their workforce taking advantage of things like "zero hours contracts" etc.
Consequently it is time for the resurgence of union power but with unions led by people who are looking to improve conditions for their members as opposed to continually getting into a "communist style stand off" as they did - to little effect in the 70's.
But I might be wrong ?....................... ;)
Would be interested to know if I am right ???
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I think it's debatable. :-\
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I would think he means - the current coalition government in the UK has gone too far in supporting / turning a blind eye to blatant capitalism with big business having little or no respect for their workforce taking advantage of things like "zero hours contracts" etc.
Consequently it is time for the resurgence of union power but with unions led by people who are looking to improve conditions for their members as opposed to continually getting into a "communist style stand off" as they did - to little effect in the 70's.
But I might be wrong ?....................... ;)
Would be interested to know if I am right ???
Apologies all, I thought it was pretty obvious but then that is of course because I wrote it and naturally it was clear in my mind but essentially yes Ian :) Over the years I have seen more and more how the work[lace has become on where employer bullying and unreasonable behaviour are coupled with the ease with which employment laws can be overridden with relative impunity. It is the age of merger, and, of course, each merger is used to get rid or people who are not necessarily truly fitting the criteria.
I have personally seen someone made redundant based on the fact that there job was no longer required in the organisation, but a new employee was immediately employed to do that job, at a different location, and a subtle title change!
I have seen people (No, none of them myself) pressured to work later with no extra pay to "demonstrate loyalty" and to "show commitment", their home telephoned and them pressured to come to work when obviously sick and not fit for work, the boss says he isn't going to pay for the milk that some staff who live a long way away use to have a bowl of cereal when they arrive at work, while he, who cycles to work from less than a mile away takes delivery of his new Bentley.
In one organisation I saw criteria such as "sickness in the last 12 months only" used as a redundancy criteria to justify some redundancies. ( I am sure that was not legal)
So, is there a place for a resurgence of the Union to protect employees from exploitation, "Intelligent" Unions that concentrate more on the original idea that Keir Hardy had of improving working conditions and preventing exploitation? Would even a small private Company dare to flout the regulations and ride roughshod over their staff in an atmosphere of fear if that employee had "the Union" to help fight his/her case and fund legal support?
For those who don't know, anyone can join a Union, and your employer is not entitled to know who and who is not a member of a Union, the question is have we arrived at a point in the UK where people should consider this?
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And before someone comments on "(none of them myself) -- I meant not me, not that I didn't see it happen)
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John, interesting post and whilst I agree with most of your comments from the employees side there is a great deal of difficulty in running an organisation where you have some staff who are loyal and some who basically take the mick but just stay on the right side of the line.
Our Company has about 175 employees, 12 years ago when I joined we were about half of that and it was a nice 'family feel' firm to work for. Now it is bigger it cant operate with the same nicities that it used to have because some people just want to exploit every benefit to the full.
We have an aging workforce that most don't want to retire due to poor pensions, unfortunately we cant retire people they have the choice to stay on, the really good ones tend to retire the not so good tend to want to stay, this affects efficiency.
People become ill, through no fault of theirs but the Company is expected to carry this cost. Employee protection is tied down and managing the bad people out is a very long and drawn out process.
Whilst I have respect for Unions if used in the right manner they can be a hindrance and I for one am glad our works is not unionised.
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John - you should watch the programme on channel 4 this evening - big business such as Amazon / ASDA / NEXT really taking the mick out of workers.
ASDA have 150,000 people working on 3 day contracts - but working 5 days every week - then - you guessed it - holiday pay is based on 3 days per week.
AMAZON - using couriers who have drivers working 70 hours a week at around £5 per hour as they get a day rate - but must deliver all of their 100 packages and some even owed the courier company when they got their pay slip after vehicle expenses / fuel were deducted!
NEXT - moving more and more staff to 20 hours per week - so now those workers are not earning enough to pay national insurance - with possible implications to future pension entitlement.
I think you might have a point more than ever after watching this - maybe there should be more stringent measures for the bigger businesses (non Sme's) ???
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Yes, it is a serious issue, and in Germany where they have higher average output than here for less hours none of the things large Companies are doing would be legal! But it isn't just the "big guns" I have see terrible abuses in Companies of less than 100 people.
People being threatened if they don't come to work although they are really genuinely sick, fake redundancies, (I saw someone made redundant -- no friend of mine or many others -- but nevertheless it was fake, they immediately employed someone else at a different office doing exactly the same job -- for a lot less! ). Unfairly organising meetings that would be in employees own time etc. It was made very clear to me once that the "boss" wanted me to buy my Company Vehicle at an artificially high price, and when I refused he dumped an old wreck on me that was later declared dangerous and scrapped! It was me against him as for everyone else in that Company, I wished we had all joined a Union and have now joined one and encouraged others too.
Of course running a small business is hard work, I had an employer who made very clear how hard it was to everyone, "I had to give my house to the Bank" (No, he didn't use it as security at all! I knew that), "I only take £50k per annum out of the business", (true, but he forgot to mention that he paid his wife £50k pa. she came in a few hours a week and of course then there were other family member on the payroll --) and I have run my own small business, treated people fairly I hope --- but many don't and the UK seems to encourage them!
KM &FE
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As the eldest son of a coal miner, and a surveyor for the N.C.B. myself, I have, and always will be, a very strong advocate for Trades Unions. Unfortunately for the true, hard working people of the U.K., most, if not all Trades Unions were "castrated", by Thatcherism, at a time when our once great country was experiencing perhaps the worst employment upheaval since just after W.W.2.
I believe that John has an extremely valid point, and this is indeed a very interesting, strongly debatable subject. Today's news regarding the almost immediate complete closure of what I remember as British Hydrocarbons at Grangemouth, ( I lived 4 miles away from the plant for many years), just proves that any employer is allowed to treat all employees as nothing less than serfs; these employees at Grangemouth were expected to work longer hours for less pay, take a cut in Pensions, and still produce the same, or better, results. And their erstwhile employer will get away with it !!
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"these employees at Grangemouth were expected to work longer hours for less pay, take a cut in Pensions, and still produce the same, or better, results"
So what is the solution to the plant losing the reported £ 10m per month .
Unite, thought they would flex their muscles, as they often do, and got found out.
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Unless the 1200 or so workers are earning in the region of 800 thousand pounds each in pay, bonuses and pensions per month then the solution hardly lies with them!
Typical management strategy to target then blame the workers when they refuse to be screwed. Perhaps the solutions lie in better management and structural efficiency savings.
How anyone can purely blame the workers in a massive operation like that is beyond me; I didn't read about any other suggestions being touted for 'saving' the plant reported in the 'intelligent' reporting that I read in the Guardian.
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"these employees at Grangemouth were expected to work longer hours for less pay, take a cut in Pensions, and still produce the same, or better, results"
So what is the solution to the plant losing the reported £ 10m per month .
Unite, thought they would flex their muscles, as they often do, and got found out.
Interesting point --- I learned a long time ago in Business and Politics that there are Lies --- Damned Lies --- and -----------------------Statistics! To illustrate, al la Max Bygraves -- I'm going to tell you a story ..........
Old Moneychops is retiring and gathers his Directors to announce how he will choose his successor by their answers to a simple question. They stand tremulously and avariciously before him as he turns and Asks first the Engineering director
"What is one and one"?? He answers "Well 2 of course Boss"" "yes", says Moneychops "good answer but not the one I was looking for"
Then he turns to the sales director and asks "wha'ts one and one?" Sales of course ever optimistic answer "Must be 11 Boss!" "Yes" says Moneychops "Good answer, but not the one I was looking for"
Finally he turns to the Finance Director and aks him "what is one and one?" and Quick as a flash he answers "what would you like it be?" .............................................................
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Nichola you are so right in many ways, even just 25 years ago I had the pleasure of reporting to some first rate Senior Management, people who really knew what they were doing, who had vision, drive, enthusiasm and who drove the Company and its fortunes forward. These were people who continually had meetings around the World with the whole workforce to get their "buy-in" and commitment and explained how they would be rewarded -- and we were!
What do I see now? Manipulative greedy owners and Managers who are firmly rooted in the Ideal of "It isn't how you play the game -- just knowing where to lay the Blame! No wonder that Germany, just a few years ago labelled "the sick man of Europe" is kicking our arse today! They have very strong Unions, but then they don't have management and owners that abuse like we have here -- we need a new Union Movement --- and I am also appalled at the lack of recruitment and education by our current Unions! Where are those people who used to encourage us to join in the Pub after work? Where are the leaflets through your door? where is their Facebook sites?
If we are sick we go to the Doctor and hopefully he helps us get better -- we need a Doctor(s) in the UK!
Perhaps a move away from 2 party politics might help!
If it wasn't for the fact I believe it would harm Scotland I would be rooting for their Independence ---- might help people here wake up a bit to voting for the ideals and prospects and not the party!
KM and FE
My neighbour's lad had the chance of a good job in Berlin and asked my advice -- I said "Take it"" that was 3 years ago, he isn't planning to ever come back --- we cant afford to lose brains like his!
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""Intelligent" Unions"
Sounds like they need one in Scotland at the moment what with the petro-chemical plant closing. I don't know the full ins and outs but it seems the options were to change the terms and conditions or shut it down. Hopefully today's talks might save some if not all of the jobs under threat.
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I was a trade union member all my working life and now I retain "Retired Member" status. For seventeen years I was actively involved in representing my branch and region including being a Branch Secretary (voluntary evening, weekend and holiday duties). Reflecting on what trade unions have achieved since the mid-19th century, it seems to me that they did little to change the balance between the overall economic returns to labour and capital until the 1980s. In cyclical economic shifts from "boom" to "bust", and low to high unemployment, in the up-cycle TUs managed to negotiate real economic gains for workers and, to a certain extent, managed to hang on to some of these in the down-cycle. Overall, however, I don't believe that they achieved a fundamental change in the distribution of wealth - except between different occupational groups within the workforce (including union/non-union).
Of far more importance, I believe, were the achievements in areas of working conditions and health and safety at work. (People who make jokes about "Elf & Safety gorn mad" ;) should take a look at death and injury rates in Turkish industry where H&S rules do not apply. It used to like in the UK as well. Alongside this, there have been major achievements in the protection of the rights of individual workers in relation to harassment and bullying, unfair dismissal, arbitrary discipline, and so on.
The situation changed in the 1980s. Urged on by the Thatcher Government, bosses embarked on what people involved in Industrial Relations described as the "Employers' Offensive". This was a concerted and prolonged campaign to strip away all the rights and protections that TUs had established over a couple of generations. This didn't seem to matter much to many people as long as the economy was booming; employees were getting on OK in conditions of high employment; perhaps the unions were outdated. Following the 2008 global crisis of financial capital the prolonged economic depression that followed showed the vital need for trade unions. Agreed working conditions and hours have been swept away, entitlements have ripped up, huge swathes of workers have been sacked with little consideration, and individual victimization is commonplace. When we stand back and take a wider view, what we can see over the last three decades is a massive shift of wealth from labour to capital - and the agents of capital, those senior executives whose salaries and bonuses are incomprehensible to most of us (perhaps even to them). In retrospect, maintaining the economic balance between returns to labour and to capital - which I had rather dismissed in the opening paragraph - now seems no small achievement.
Rebuilding trade unions from here is not going to be easy - but then building them in the first place wasn't. I share JT's wish for a higher profile, pro-active, recruitment campaign; not only by individual unions but by the labour movement in general. For my children's and grandchildren's sake - and for yours - I hope the task is achieved.
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Go Colwyn! :)
Its time for a return to a more caring Society and perhaps joining a Union is more important than joining a party!
I actually welcome the Labour Party separating from the Unions, it should be a separate issue as Politics is about running the Country and the Union should be about working conditions, fair play and the prevention of exploitation where government fails to do so.
The Worsley Popular Front
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Interesting stuff. And what lessons should we learn after the Grangemouth affair ?
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Colwyn, your post was very thoughtfully presented and an accurate statement of the state of UK industrial relations and the greed of senior management/executives. Johntaylor49, your original post was both painfully truthful concerning management practices and wistfully hopeful that something could be done about them before their greed ruins what is left of our industry and country. Scorcher, the lesson we could learn from Grangemouth is that none of our essential industries or services should be in private ownership, this is particularly relevant when you consider the naked greed which has shown it's self in the gas/electric industries these past few days.
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New Labour had 13 years virtually unapposed to radically change the UK for the better, aided by a booming economy.
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The trouble is JT, the 'Union's' became part of the 'Problem' they were originally formed to defend workers against the many injustices, long hours, very poor pay, few if any holidays etc.... Power Corrupts, Union 'bosses' now have similar lifestyles, commensuration & perks (if not more!) than our MP's!
It's a similar situation with the big Charities, those at the top are drawing massive salary's, expenses & perks, at the 'expense' of those they are supposed to be raising money to help :(
IMO, all European governments are working towards a 'Supreme United Europe'. The richest countries in the EU implemented the free passage of migrants (can't remember what guise that came under) but, the ultimate Game is to level out Pay & working conditions. The UK along with other richer countries achieved better, pay & conditions, housing, healthcare, Education, human rights etc, etc, it is/was costing the Power-Brokers too much (or more than they want to pay - profit margins is all they are interested in!).
If you throw hundreds of thousands of poorly paid people's into a, relatively, rich environment it generates competition, undercutting etc etc, the end result - Cheaper Labour, Less Rights etc, etc :(. It creates the illusion that there's Less to go around, people panic, fight & become very defensive of 'their patch', ultimately because of the fear that is generated people expect Less for fear of having Nothing.
It's all a big dirty game, the chinless wonders that are supposed to be defending us, our values, our cultures & what our forefathers fought for are selling us down the river.
The REAL power house & meetings are still taking place, for a start I'd like to see All UK officials either Banned from participating or the details of what's actually discussed at the Annual Biderberg Meeting, published!, No notes are taken, nothing is recorded, just a 'Gentleman's' agreement :(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group
PS: I've just your post Colwyn, well said :)
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What do we do? Revolution?? well why not?
JT
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im calling a ten minute strike, whilst i make a lemsip
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Hope you are not working and traveling whilst sick, not helpful to infect people! :)
Oh, unless you are a politician or a Banker, in which case make sure you drive to work and sit in a crowded area
Trotsky