Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
Property For Sale in Calis Beach & Turkey => Buying Property in Calis Beach, Fethiye and Turkey => Topic started by: fishman on July 10, 2014, 17:29:36 PM
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I would like to share this with all members and hope you can pass this on
Have just returned from Turkey having a nightmare 10 days
It started back in May when we were just about to leave for our journey home, we've had a apartment in Turkey which we brought in 2002 from Nicholas homes as we were leaving we was meet by one of the original owners (cannot name but I presume most will know who I am talking about)
He proceeded to tell us their was a problem with our tapu regarding the bim number to keep this as short as possible but the mix up was with three apartments in our particular block.
This began the nightmare three weeks we went to see a lawyer (Sule) in June to see if we could change the bim numbers around so each apartment would be correct, this is were the problems started she was told this was not possible because the Nicholas Homes owner had used the deed as a debt so their was a charge on our apartment
So we flow out to see Sule and hopefully get this sorted once we had met with her we was told by the bank holding the deeds that the apartment we brought and paid for in good faith was going to be auctioned and the only way was to buy it back from the bank.
So we put our bid in though tender only to be told that their was another party interested and they had also bid on it, so we attended the auction on Monday (10th) were as we had a bidding war with the other party who actually turned out to be the bank and they drove the price up.
Well that is the outline of my problem, I wanted to put this on here just incase this happens to somebody else and they have to go though the stress and costs we have just had to deal with.
So basically the bim number on the right hand side of your tapu is the original building plan when the apartments was built and should show so on the plans even if the door number is different
If this subject saves one person from these people (if they could be called that ) then I would be happy that I at least achieved somethink from our nightmare
And with these forums that people will warn others to stay away from these particular company and make sure NOBODY else puts anymore money into their pockets
Thanks for reading this and please pass on to anyone you know I am not trying scaremonger anyone but please check yours if your not sure
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In essence you had to buy your own apartment (that you believed you owned fully and outright) a second time at auction, because the Nicholas Homes owner (Yilmaz brothers) had used it as an asset to borrow money.
It is an absolute disgrace, I am sickened to hear your story - how on Earth did you pull through all this. And how do these people sleep?
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Very sorry to hear what you have gone through fishman, it's disgusting.
Is legal action possible and would Sule think there is a chance of recovering
any of your losses, ie,any remaining assets.?
Thank you for taking the time to try and warn others, you must have been through hell.
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Very sorry indeed Fishman to hear of the nightmare you have had I believe a similar problem has also happened on the Palm Beach complex recently... We have a Nicholas apartment purchased in 2007 and I am afraid to go and look at my tapu, :(
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Thanks for your replies !
I would like to add even though these owners have put us though so much and On what I've been hearing many more could be having the same problems
I would like to thank many turkish friends who tried to assist us last week just to show you may have a bad apple in their community but their are some fantastic people out there.
We are still in discussion with this but don't want to go into to much detail but I am sure I will be updating you at some stage
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Good Luck fishman.
And try and enjoy what others tried to rob you of.
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Fisherman, you usually find this when the bank auctions off property, they will have a couple of 'ringers' in the audience to boost up the bidding. One day, they will make a cockup, and buy the property for the bank inadvertently.
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This happened a few years back, you can approach the bank and ask them what money they are looking for, this is usually better than taking the Auction route. The bank are wanting the money owed, and rightly so. Unfortunately a little late for this member, but if it helps another all to the good.
The friends who fell foul of this have now sold up, they struggled with the extra UK mortgage payments.
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I'm so outraged by this it hurts! How can there be no redress, the property is honestly paid for and all above board etc. So why aren't the builders who do this dodgy business scam, or their business insurance made to face the consequences of their illegal actions? Why should you have to buy your own property back? Is there nothing to protect you in their legal system? I know it's happened a lot in Turkey, but this far down the line (2002 purchase) it must be a shocking and heart stopping experience. I despair. :-\
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There is a scenario which takes some getting your head around that allows this sort of thing to happen. It goes something like this:
Most people who have bought property in Turkey will be aware that the tapu office must inform a purchaser if there are any debts lodged against the property. There is no way they could not tell the buyer this, it is very much part of the process and their responsibility to do so.
So, how could the owner of the building company possibly sell a property, take full payment and have a tapu issued in the new owner's name(s) without them (the purchasers) being made aware that there is a debt attached to the property they are about to take ownership of, and the debtor is the builder himself. It's impossible, surely.
But no. It's quite possible. Clever too.
You remember that bit when the builder explains that they will take power of attorney from you so you don't need to fly over to sign this and that. What a helpful thing that is.
So the builder (your power of attorney) goes to the tapu office to sign the property tapu into your name. The guy at the deeds office does what he is obliged to do and points out to him that there is a debt lodged against the property. Builder says "Yes I know" and because the deeds man has done his job and highlighted the issue, the transfer can now take place. It does, but of course the debt is still there, it transfers ownership too.
So when the builder (your PoA) says "Yes I know", sometimes he's saying "Yes I know, it was me who borrowed the money you are mentioning".
It took me a couple of years to work out fully how they did it. I'm sure it took them a couple of seconds.
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This is awful. Was the wrong bim number part of the fraud or a mistake and is there a reason the original owner would personally point it out?
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Absolutely horrendous! I thank my lucky stars that we dealt with an honest and highly respected builder/agent as we bought absolutely on the hoof, during our first visit to Turkey when we went for a beach holiday and had no plans in place to buy. Such frauds really give a bad impression of the Turkish as a whole, but IMHO the vast majority are totally honest and reliable. :)
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Absolutely horrendous! I thank my lucky stars that we dealt with an honest and highly respected builder/agent
I'm sure everyone burned by this (and I know of others, just can't post about them - yet) believed they were very much dealing with "an honest and highly respected builder".
I left the word 'agent' off that quote because it's different - this scam only works for people who deal direct with the builder/developer. There is no way your agent would sign a tapu into your name knowing the builder had taken out a loan on the property!!!
And 12 year on, I still stand by my view that a good agent is money well spent and going direct (sometimes after we showed them the property!) isn't the smart move some people thought. For example, the money one family had to pay to clear a Nicholas Homes debt off their tapu so they could sell was WAY IN EXCESS of the 3% they saved by cutting the middle man out!!!
Use a good agent. I may have mentioned it once or twice before. And hey, I was right.
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Just a footnote - this may be the tip of this rotten iceberg. These things only come to light if/when you want to sell. I'd suggest any NH direct purchasers to enlist the help of a solicitor, just to check the situation of their tapu. Any can do it but for property matters I would suggest Sule or Ozlen.
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I imagine a lot if people hardly dare check! Ostrich syndrome, I know I'd be scared. :-\
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Me too, it's horrendous. There is a view that the only way to know for sure if your ownership is full and uncomplicated is to try and sell it, which is an awful state of affairs. But a good lawyer would be able to advise.
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This is awful. Was the wrong bim number part of the fraud or a mistake and is there a reason the original owner would personally point it out?
It could be either Ian, I think this happens more frequently than anybody realises & often isn't picked-up until the property is put up for sale or, because there are also other problems (as in my case) looked at far more closely, it took me 6 years to find out they had switched the numbers of the apartment around. The apartment I chose, was given the keys for, furnished etc etc, I eventually learned wasn't 'on the deeds' that one at all!. That also 'masked' the fact that Debts had also been taken out against mine :( The only saving grace for me was Not signing for the Tapu, as I would have inadvertently also accepted the extra debt as well - Lucky escape eh!!!!!!
Even the MP they applied for was fraudulent! The ex-landowner had already transferred 'my' Tapu into another's name when he signed the paper-work applying for my MP, declaring he was still the Legal Owner (one of my ex-lawyers - didn't notice this!)....... I have the original paper-work to prove this, just couldn't find any Honest Legal body to help me prove it :(
You really do need eyes in the back of your head if you're unfortunate enough to deal with one of the many rogues about! My advice Re: POA's - Don't give yours to anyone (lawyers, agents etc. etc) that you wouldn't trust with all your bank account details including your pin number :(
The only lawyer I've haven't heard (or experienced) anything bad about is: Sule Beder.
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Nightmare! - as Scunner says "reputable agent" every time!
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Scunner, perhaps I should alter my comment to "in retrospect I thank my lucky stars. ........". We could have very easily found ourselves in a similar position but the gods shone down and we bought from an honest developer who was also the agent. :)
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I absolutely agree - you have to put your trust (and money) in the hands of someone when buying in Turkey and the rest is down in part to how your luck is.
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There is so much truth in many of your statements as it's been stated when we brought from Nicholas Homes in September 2002 we left them with our POA as we ran out of time.
When returned in the May 2003 our tapu was ready and waiting for us so in hinsight now it reads correct
Who's name was actually on the apartment we brought ?
Was it the right apartment (ie bim number ) correct ?
And can you trust developer/ company you are dealing with ?
Well in my case not, so please don't take this as correct as I said at the beggining of this thread my nightmare can be used as one not for others to be put though
Use a good lawyer and get the paperwork check
Good luck to those who are checking theirs now and for you thinking and still buying read all the above threads some great ideas and don't be put off not all these companies selling are crooks unfortunately for me I brought from the wrong company and of course the wrong family
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As a footnote, the people I know who's solicitor found a Yilmaz/Nicholas debt secured on their property - this was just a few weeks ago and their lawyer contacted "Mr" Yilmaz directly to ask if he was prepared to repay his loan.
He said he was not.
He was happy to borrow money and spend it, and let my friends pay for all the things he spent it on.
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Makes you shiver with fear that it could have been you, as literally an innocent abroad making your first purchase of a property in Turkey. Whilst at the same time it makes your blood boil that these despicable barks can get away with it.
Some good advice above, but how do any of us know - particularly as a first time purchaser - or perhaps that should be guarantee that you have the agent, or indeed lawyer, who is working for you, and that you have swift and certain redress if something does go wrong? Yes I know there are good and reliable agents available, that you pick up from recommendation, but in the end it is not a guarantee underwritten by independent and insured redress process.
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I wondered this yesterday as in it could be the tip of the rotten iceberg I thought long and hard and thought bury my head in the sand or do something about it so we are going to get ours checked next month....we also believed we were buying from a reputable agent/builder by purchasing with Nicholas, I have had a look at our tapu and our bim no is correct but that is not going to mean anything is it as in I would not know whether there was a debt outstanding on the property...
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I understand the above posts and it is an awful crime that seems to be far too widespread for comfort.
What I don't understand is why the banks are not in better control over this. Has the debt been outstanding for 12 years if so why have they not chased for repayment earlier or is the loan a mortgage and the builder is just paying off the minimum each month to keep the banks at bay?
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There's too much 'robbing peter to pay paul' going on, pure greed! Trouble arises when the previous steady flow of 'peter's' dry up & they can no longer pay paul.... = the banks.
Imo, the banks know what's going on, they are part of the problem & are in reality colluding in these sickening frauds. The bank I 'had' an account with, was also the bank the builder & co banked with. In fairness they may not have known from the beginning because the first payment I made via a bank transfer (same bank) into a brits account, was then paid over 'In Cash' to the builder & emlak :( By the time I paid most of the remainder (via bank transfer), they were very well aware of the problems I was having & who I had those problems with!
Only new laws & tight regulations will stop what is in reality 'Legalised Fraud'. That's not going to happen any time soon if ever! & given the turmoil Turkey is in politically it's very low on their list of 'to do's' if, it's on the list at all :(
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I know the subject has been covered by many people BUT we have just been informed of another owner who has found theirselves in the same position as we were.(£70,000)
So if your not sure please check all your details !!!
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On the bank lending problem, the Government could easily introduce laws to protect the Buyer just by copying systems operating in countries such as England that was brought in under the Land Registry Act 1925, and no doubt such protection exists in many countries too. Unfortunately, the present Government seem more interested in restricting alcohol consumption than stopping corruption in the property market to the detriment of the innocent buyer.
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Is there anything to stop property owners taking their Tapu's, and a translator, to the
Tapu Office to see if there is a debt on the property or does it require a solicitor,??
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Is there anything to stop property owners taking their Tapu's, and a translator, to the
Tapu Office to see if there is a debt on the property or does it require a solicitor,??
Hi yes you should be able to do this but would take a translator with you if you get any problems then please do get a recognized Solicitor. Sule is very good and will get things sorted for you. We have recently and our friends been issued with fake tapus so would ask everyone to have their tapus checked by a recognised person without delay as the tapus you will never know are fake as they are done very professionally until you go to sell your property. Please also be aware of giving power of attorney to estate agents. We have been through hell over the last few months. Please don't hesitate get tapus checked now.
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We have recently and our friends been issued with fake tapus so would ask everyone to have their tapus checked by a recognised person without delay as the tapus you will never know are fake as they are done very professionally until you go to sell your property.
Who gave you these, an agent or a builder? If you're sorted now it'd also be good if you let folks know who they are, it may help someone avoid going down the same road you did.
JF
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Yes please - and also why people should be "aware of giving power of attorney to estate agents" - it is far preferable in most cases to giving it to the builder/developer, what with the builder/developer being able to get finance secured on the property and the agent not. An agent would never sign on behalf of a client to take a property into their ownership while it holds a debt. Unless you know different.
Not trying to start an inquisition of you here - my heart goes out to you - I just hope you can give details so people have all the information they need.
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We have recently and our friends been issued with fake tapus so would ask everyone to have their tapus checked by a recognised person without delay as the tapus you will never know are fake as they are done very professionally until you go to sell your property.
Who gave you these, an agent or a builder? If you're sorted now it'd also be good if you let folks know who they are, it may help someone avoid going down the same road you did.
JF
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Sorry unfortunately we are unable to disclose any names etc as there is a court case pending. We only wish to make people aware that a tapu should be checked by a Solicitor or Tapu office so there are no problems in the future when you come to sell property. When the court case has finished these people will be named etc and the Company involved.
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Good for you, we look forward to that. All the very best for the court case too.
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Good for you, we look forward to that. All the very best for the court case too.
Thank you will be glad when its all over
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Always go with builder or solicitor to pick up Tapu from Tapu Office. We had to go to verify our photo and passport . We also had to sign paperwork. This was about 8 years ago but surely same rules apply.
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Always go with the builder to pick up your tapu? No, the opposite of that. NEVER go with the builder - as explained at length they are the ones who can borrow on the property then at the tapu office 'advise' you to sign as everything is fine.
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After the nightmare we can finally say that our apartment is OURS now
Big thank you to Sule and her team for all their support and work
And not such a big thank you to all the crooks at Nicolas Homes one man in particular so to finish beware please don't put anymore money in his pocket
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i shpuld have said builder and solicitor
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We purchased from NH in 2009. I said to my missus at the time, of collecting our Tupa from them, " I bet it's fake." Those words just may come home to roost. I sincerely hope they don't, so best get in touch with a Solicitor when we are over in August. >:(
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Ryaza as I've said and many others don't panic to much but get it checked by a lawyer
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Go wıth Solıcıtor and Buılder Evıe But only ıf the solıcıtor ıs ındepedant of the buılders not one actıng for them as well. Also dont forget ıf you dont speak turkısh they could tell you anythıng and you would belıeve them. Its a bıt better now because a translator has to be present at Tapu offıce as well to make sure you understand what you are sıgnıng. So ask hım/her any questıons you have before you sıgn.
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I'm really pleased for you Fishman though it should have been yours in the first place..
Hubby and I have been discussing this at great length this week, if the same thing did happen to us we will not be paying a penny more to any member of the Nicholas group...
I am totally gob smacked over this surely if there were too many Nicholas properties that this had happened to something would have to be done whatever way you look at it it is fraud...
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Karennina I felt the same about having to buy my OWN apartment back but it was very complicated as their was another party involved so not only would we have lost ours but if we did it the way we should have we was suppose to take their apartment from them as we had their bim number on our tapu
I've always been and always will be a man of princables unlike the owner of Nicholas homes we've known the other party for 12 years and couldn't bring ourselves to take the apartment from them ( some say it's yours ) but our morales are not of that thinking
So we agreed to buy it indirectly we paid his debt off to the bank and your last question we won't be the only ones involved in this fraudulent company as I said got a few things still to take up on this then we will see were it takes us