Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
General Topics => The Debating Chamber => Topic started by: johntaylor49 on August 08, 2014, 11:05:06 AM
-
Well now, as it is the summer felt it would be even better to have more cats among the Pigeons -- very relevant when you see my 2nd subject -- and get some real Debate, Well?
Lets start with some basic History but not enough to spoil debate:-
Britain founded the state of Israel effectively with the Balfour Mandate
When the British left "Palestine" they handed over all the forts and heavy weapons to the Arab League
In 1948 the "Arabs" invaded Israel and were defeated
In 1967 they tried again and were soundly defeated and a lot of Arab lands occupied -- such as Gaza and the West Bank of the Jordan River
in 1973 they tried again and got back some territory and since then numerous treaties resulting in the
Formation of the State of Palestine on the much reduced land area
Off we all go then :)
-
I find it ironic that Obama is so worried about Iraq he is willing to send arms to help these poor people. However, he did not lift a finger to help the poor people of Gaza.
-
Obama's appealing for worldwide help to pay for the rebuilding of Gaza.
America funded it's destruction so that's the place to pick up the bill.
Or deduct it from Israel's annual handout from the good ol' USA. >:(
-
OK I'll bite.
First let me start by saying that the Jews have been persecuted for ever. Israel is the only nation with borders created for people based on a religion.
It is understandable after the horrific fate so many Jews during the 2nd WW suffered that the "powers" felt that something should be done to protect them as a race and provide a homeland where Jews from around the world could go, live and settle amongst their own in peace.
They have never had that before, or since as in fact as JT points out the resentment and actions from Arab nations over a period of years demonstrates.
Was it a mistake, was it justifiable, to take away one homeland to create another? We can debate that forever.
However I personally can not condone the sort of violence we have seen perpetrated against the Palestinian people who are also victims, victims of displacement because of the creation of Israel.
The Palestinians live in a prison where anything and everything they get from food, water, medical supplies, cement etc first has to be agreed by Israel. Unlike Israel they don't have an iron dome which they can use to block weapons fired on them by Israel, which is why there are so few Israeli casualties. No wonder the Palestinians build tunnels; it's a means of smuggling in all kinds of things they are otherwise denied.
I am of the view that the Jewish people do live in a state of perpetual fear, a fear created largely by their own government. They get 3billion US$ every year from the States alone, which they use to buy weapons, from the US.
There is hell of a lot of money in war and weapons and while this is the case there will never be peace here or anywhere else in the world. There is no profit in peace.
Until people say enough is enough we can expect to see more of the same the world over whether it's Israel, Ukraine, Somalia, Libya, you name it!
-
Short answer to your original question John,; as long as the USA is OWNED by jews, NO !!
-
This video by Pat Condell is worth watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ugsv5u-sW0
-
Oi Vey Gordon I am sure you didn't mean that "it is all the fault of the Jews" etc. Nichola well your views are interesting but actually giving a homeland to the Jews had nothing to do with the Holocaust, the Balfour Mandate was passed in November 1917 ---
"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
When Israel was established in 1948 the first that that happened was their Arab neighbours, who obviously also believed in the extracts from the Mandate of " nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country." --- attacked them with an avowed statement of "sweeping them into the sea! So much for tolerance on their side!
Israel buys arms with money from the US to defend itself?, Hamas buys arms on the black market to attack Israel?, Hamas fights to be free of Israeli Control and Israel blockades Gaza? Israel only blockades Gaza because Hamas keep firing rockets from Gaza? Question is can they ever live together? Is there an end? Not while Hamas refuses to recognise the right of Israelis to live and Israel blockades Gaza.
In actual fact as nearly one third of the Israeli males under 30 don't work as they are "studying" Judaism and this is a growing number unless they change their attitudes drastically there wont be anyone to fight anyway :)
I don't like the blunt instrument of Israel, but I wouldn't like people tunnelling down my street and firing rockets at me either! :) If I was in Gaza I don't think I would like Hamas firing missiles from my Children's Schoolyard, the Hospital we use etc. either! We just had a 72 hour truce, broken by ......................Hamas.
Has anyone noticed how quiet the Palestinian Government in Hebron has been?
-
This video by Pat Condell is worth watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ugsv5u-sW0
People hate hearing what they don't like! But the truth is the truth -- there is evidence to back up almost all his claims. Thing is, its easy to criticise from an armchair --- I have lived and travelled all over the middle east and you get a different view then!
-
The Balfour Mandate may have been passed in November 1917 but it was after the 2nd WW in 1948 that Israel was created. I know governments are slow to act but the timing 31 years later is surely more than a coincidence.
-
Well, as usual Politics is one thing and promises are another! Britain actively promoted immigration of Jewish people into Palestine, and actively recruited from there for the Military in WW2, however it was still "Palestine" under British Rule. The trouble came when the British decided to leave, and decided that in order to placate the Arab peoples that they would play it down and even prevent Jewish immigration despite their earlier promises. Meanwhile the displaced Jews of Europe wanted the Homeland they had been promised and ran the Blockade (Blockade -- what! You mean the British Blockaded "Palestine"? :) ) whilst there was plenty of room there greed and politics took over and the non-Jewish Palestinians saw an opportunity to control. For that reason David Ben Gurion and his followers fought a War of Independence against the British (known as the Haganah) who eventually agreed there should be a separate State of Israel and Palestine but wouldn't hang around to ensure it was completed. The rest -- as they say is History.
Can they ever live together, perhaps the only way is by force, investment and aid conditional upon both sides following rules? Eventually people do live side by side, albeit under tensions such as Bosnia and Serbia where there were Myriad reasons for their Historical hatreds. Or is it impossible, I have no answers but the Debate idea was to see if anyone else has?
John
-
http://www.youtube.com/embed/A_fP6mlNSK8?feature=player_detailpage
-
I have to say that like most people I find the events happening in Palestine dreadful but neither do I condone Hamas firing rockets into Israel.
My point in this debate is a question "Is the worlds focus on this conflict justifiable or a convenient smokescreen?"
The reason for my question is that I'm staggered at the seeming lack of reaction in the Muslim world about the thousands of Muslims being killed by fellow their Muslims known as the Islamic State. Why aren't Muslim Countries forming an alliance to stop this slaughter?
I read a report recently which surprised me, the conclusion of which was:
“Some 11,000,000 Muslims have been violently killed since 1948, of which 35,000, or 0.3 percent, died during the sixty years of fighting Israel, or just 1 out of every 315 Muslim fatalities. In contrast, over 90 percent of the 11 million who perished were killed by fellow Muslims.”
I find that staggering
-
Sad to say that as I may have mentioned before a lot of the Islamic World is relatively "new" in that the
society is in the main primitive, tribal, and a personal view, but adheres to medieval ideas and laws. They simply
have not evolved. In Saudi Arabia I was told with some glee that it "serves those Kuwaiti's right" when Saddam Hussein invaded
Kuwait, the Saudi's don't like the tribe, particularly the Wahabi dislike them (Tribal). Only when they realised that having publicly
supported USA/UK etc. and committed to joining the assault (not that they did much :) ) that they were possibly next, did they suddenly
panic! (As they are now, didn't care about ISIL --- until they saw an ISIL map with them as part of it!). Now suddenly there is a "fatwa" announced
against people going to fight with them.
Syria is dominated by minority religious Tribes such as the Alawites (Assad is an alawite), other Shia sects and the Christians
who realise that they need the protection against the Sunni who would dominate with ISIL now controlling that group. They all
take the word of their religious texts as fact an no interpretations, so, if in 1514 it said it was right to behead people who wouldn't accept Islam
and rape their wives and daughters (which is happening) to impregnate them they deem it correct today.
Not really ever having had unified non-tribal governments (funny that Saddam's was the closest!) and secretly all hating each other, with all the money
to buy weaponry they cant use, and having completely forgotten how to fight, (unless drug fuelled religious fervour hypnotised), they simply cannot co-operate against any threat. There is in my view one big difference between Islam and other religions, they teach love and tolerance and Islam teaches fear and intolerance. That alone ensures conflict for many, many, years and no real Unity.
When they have evolved, they will change. Whilst I am obviously not a fan of Islam -- and yes I read the Koran -- where it has been subject to some interpretation it does not generally create such tensions.
So, tragically, meanwhile millions of Muslims will continue to die while a goal of World religious domination that simply cannot succeed but
is part of the written religion exists. (be aware that ISIL are disobeying the Koran there as it clearly says that Christians and Jews are to be respected!
Israel and Palestine probably cant co-exist as two states, they might as one ------- but not while they cant even agree amongst themselves, Hebron and Gaza may as well be a million miles from each other.
Sadly, this will go on -- and on as the human animal in that part of the World ---evolves!
Now Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia in the main have evolved much faster so although Islamic states don't agree with extremists,
try to be less Tribal, (yes I know the kurds!) and seem to co-exist in the World reasonably well.
Soon I wont be able to write things like this as because of our apathy and inaction in the "west" our new ISUK government
wont allow it and will have confiscated all technology.
-
Interesting and informative response John, from what you say it sounds like the fears of some in the western world who believe that one day Muslims will wage war on the rest of the world need not worry for the time being at least.
-
I've just watched Obama at a press conference in Estonia, stating that the US would not allow a country
to be invaded and have their land stolen. He was accusing Putin/ Russia.
Perhaps someone should tell him who is funding the theft of land and assets of Palestine by the Israeli's.
Hypocrisy at it's best. >:(
-
Well said Kevin. America has the right to go into the middle east to supposedly bring peace but while there why not take everyone's oil!
-
So, I guess it was equally right for the Arab League (Palestine, Jordan, Egypt, Syria) to attack the Jews in 1948 to
"push them into the Sea" (the first reason why the Palestinian Arabs are displaced, they ran away while the "Arab League"
fought so they could come back and take all the Jewish lands) and to attack them again without provocation in 1967?
Hamas has refused to accept the right of the Israei's to exist, and if you buy an Atlas in Saudi Arabia the sea covers all the land of Israel
or it has been blacked out!
America has not made the best job of interfering in the Middle East, had hoped they would have learned from Britain and France when they
created the maelstrom, but they obviously haven't! ISIL is different, this is a cancer that can only be eradicated by force, and I hope that everyone
gets involved to destroy ISIL totally.
Well, whether Obama is a Hypocrite or not, with shale gas America is no longer so reliant on Middle Eastern Oil, perhaps we will get peace
finally when the oil is gone and the Tribes" have to get along with everyone to survive.
Peace in our time? I doubt it sadly!
-
what a history and no mention of the king David Hotel !, to many people not enough land. Return back to the borders of 1967? but wait a minute they have (Israel) have build on them. this is a running sore and I can see no end.