Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
General Topics => The Debating Chamber => Topic started by: KKOB on December 17, 2013, 18:41:35 PM
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Somebody seems to be poking the hornet's nest !
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/17/turkish-ministers-sons-arrested-corruption-investigation
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They reckon on Al Jazeera - The Gulen Movement may have initiated this - what is this - the start of some powerful opposition ???
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The Gulen Movement, also known as Hizmet, have always been in opposition to RTE. They own the newspaper Today's Zamam.
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But who else could have pulled this off - certainly none of the opposition parties ??
My "what is this" comment was more a statement of - "is this the beginning" - if that makes sense?
Gulen - has many police / teachers / journalists and other professionals as the backbone of their movement.
I thought they were given credit for helping the AKP into power but in recent times have drifted away from their ever tightening policies - we will see - watch this space......
In the meantime have a read of this:
http://m.ceip.org/publications/?fa=53863
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I imagine it's the start of a very interesting few weeks.
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Turkish stock market dropped over 5% later on this afternoon - lira dropped to almost 3.40 to £1 on market fears after the arrests.
Let's hope there is no "tit for tat" but I think that is more with my heart than my head - possibly tin helmets on time for some of the main players on this stage ???
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From the things iv'e been reading this could last longer than a few weeks, get very
nasty and someone could get knocked off their perch.
Unconfirmed reports tonight of a lot of AKP resignations locally.
Two members of AKP Government have also resigned this week.
Tin hat time indeed.
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Supposedly mentioned on Twitter - 70 members of AKP Youth Party resigned en masse in Fethiye !
Here is a link but I don't have google translate on this handheld but it is clearly saying earthquake (read that as: sh*t has hit the fan) - 70 of our youth resign
http://www.ilk-kursun.com/haber/164076
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Just reading in todays Hurriet News.
5 Istanbul Police Commissioners were sacked this morning, including some connected to
yesterdays arrest's of Ministers sons. No reason given yet. !!!
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The Gulen Movement, also known as Hizmet, have always been in opposition to RTE. They own the newspaper Today's Zamam.
Nonsense. The AK party and the Gulenist movement were closely aligned for many years - the AK party's victory in 2002 was, some say, assisted greatly by their links to Mr Gulen and his network. The political bias spouted by the Zaman group has swung 180 degrees since they fell out. Prior to that it was far kinder to RTE and his party.
The recent deterioration has been interesting, and set to become even more interesting. Just wondering when they'll target the immediate members of RTE's family, specifically his son in law.
JF
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From Today's Zaman,
"According to sources in the judiciary, $4.5 million was found at the house of Halkbank's general manager, who was detained following a raid conducted by the istanbul Police Department on Wednesday as part of a graft probe."
All in shoe boxes, obviously he didn't like the interest rates at Halkbank.!!!!!!!! Or was he just taking his work home !!!!!
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I wouldn't mind Gill having shoes like that :-)
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They reckon on Al Jazeera - The Gulen Movement may have initiated this - what is this - the start of some powerful opposition ???
Looks like it. This from HDN:
"The investigations’ prosecutors are familiar names to the Turkish public. The operations are being headed by Istanbul deputy public prosecutor Zekeriya Öz, who is known for his work on the alleged deep-state Ergenekon coup plot case, and prosecutor Celal Kara. Kara was also a prosecutor in cases including the military espionage trial.
PM not informed about operation
The three prosecutors operating the three separate investigations did not inform the Istanbul Public Prosecutor about the operation and also did not enter the operation into the National Judiciary Network Information System (UYAP) system."
Zekeriya Öz and Celal Kara are both reputed to be Gulenists and given their work againt the army, its probably correct.
Bet the old boy is absolutely pishing himself with glee in Connecticut.
JF
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One thing the UK and Turkey seem to share in politics is what we might call "Third term-itis". Political parties and their leaders tend to go off the rails after they have won three-in-a-row. Thatcher got more and more authoritarian in her third term until even her own party got fed up and chucked her out. The third New Labour term was already going sour before Blair resigned and Brown started going barmy. The third term for RTE demonstrates both authoritarianism and barminess - as well as increasing public awareness of corruption. Very interesting to see that it is (allegedly) the Gulen Movement that has decided enough is enough and made some moves.
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Colwyn - absolutely spot on :-)
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One thing the UK and Turkey seem to share in politics is what we might call "Third term-itis". Political parties and their leaders tend to go off the rails after they have won three-in-a-row. Thatcher got more and more authoritarian in her third term until even her own party got fed up and chucked her out. The third New Labour term was already going sour before Blair resigned and Brown started going barmy. The third term for RTE demonstrates both authoritarianism and barminess - as well as increasing public awareness of corruption. Very interesting to see that it is (allegedly) the Gulen Movement that has decided enough is enough and made some moves.
I'm beginning to like you-- that drink in Bristol getting closer :) Do you know the Fleece and Firkin?? If it is still there! lol
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Now shortened to The Fleece. I was there a couple of weeks ago for a Pokey LaFarge gig.
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18 more police chief's removed, for not informing their superiors of their "ill intentions"
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Getting worse by the hour. Seems the files on the case have been removed from the investigators offices.
The cover up begins.The latest number of police chiefs removed is now 29.Reports of a senior politician
secretly filmed taking TL 1-5million bribe.
And just to add to currency woes, the US has just announced reducing stimulus package by $10 billion per month.
Now watch the TL. !!
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This is the AKP fighting for its political life... they will resort to every dirty trick in the book to try and make this go away. All we need is RTE's son in law or one of his sons to get the jail, then the sh1t will really hit the fan.
JF
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Wouldn't that just be fantastic :D
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A Heineken moment...
JF
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Totally off topic for which I apologise, but John F's comment "All we need is RTE's son in law or one of his sons to get the jail, then the sh1t will really hit the fan" is a real piece of "Scottish speak" and made me chuckle.
That said, totally agree with him.
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Have the AKP announced the formation of the Erdogan Youth and the League of Moslem Girls yet? I hear the uniforms are OK but the shorts for the boys are a bit long and brown is a drab colour? Have they invaded anywhere yet? Only a matter of time I am sure!
I have cleared out the wardrobes last weekend and have a load of shoe boxes, is there a central collection point or do you just call the AKP office to have them collected??
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I have cleared out the wardrobes last weekend and have a load of shoe boxes, is there a central collection point or do you just call the AKP office to have them filled??
Sorted that for you ;)
JF
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:) :) :)
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Top of the league.
It has been confirmed that Turkey has the number one spot of most journalists locked up in prison, ahead of China, Russia and Iran. They are probably number one in the league for locked up Police Chiefs as well, replacing Eygpt and before them Libya. Well done RTE. :o
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And they want to join the European (Dis)Union ?? Mind you, they might just fit in !! >:(
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According to Hurriyet Daily News, "The European Commission urged the Turkish government to ensure ethical principles are maintained in judicial proceedings in the largest bribery probe that any government in the country’s history has ever faced".
That may not be easy!
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I've tried to put a link but it didn't work.
On the top of the Daily Zaman there is an item regarding charging four top
Ministers and lifting their immunity.One is Foreign Minister Bagis. The charges
are all listed along with some pictures and it's staggering reading. Bribes
running into multi millions.
Can someone try and post the link.
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http://www.todayszaman.com/news-334463-prosecutors-ask-parliament-to-drop-immunity-of-4-ministers.html
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Thanks Keith.
A few squeaky bums tonight I think. ;D ;D ;D
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Yep the swords are there and are pretty unavoidable I think. Just a question of who RTE is going to push onto them.
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It's quite possible that the prosecutors havn't shown all their cards yet.
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RTE is one slimy, dodgy Mother Fu%$er, and I still wouldn't be surprised if he squirms out of this. As we say in Scotland; he could slide under a snakes belly, wearing a "lum" (top) hat !! Let us just hope and pray that the Turkish "man/woman in the street", can see this b*****d for what he really is , a despotic, megalomaniac, with only his own wishes, NOT those of Islam, as his main agenda !! GET RID Turkey !!
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I wouldn't be surprised if when the dust settles - a certain Mr Gul is the new leader of the AKP.
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On the BBC website
(http://s30.postimg.org/qctw6l3fh/Turk.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/qctw6l3fh/)
Anti-corruption protesters left shoeboxes at a branch of Halkbank after boxes full of cash were reportedly found at the bank's boss's home after his arrest
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Fantastic protest Teetee. I wonder if there are enough shoeboxes in Fethiye to deliver to all the agencies or individuals who are on the corruption gravy train in this area? ;D ;D
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According to Zaman:
"Evidence filed within the scope of the major graft probe which resulted in the detention of many well-known people has been brought to an istanbul court after 50 suspects were referred there early on Friday."
(http://s22.postimg.org/syyfq7i59/article_2448352_0019_A17_E00000258_85_634x310.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/syyfq7i59/)
JF
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(http://www.calis-beach.co.uk/trucks.jpg)
♩ ♪ ♫ Holidays are coming, holidays are coming ♩ ♪ ♫
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Bribery scandal hits Turkey's wushu world champ
Now that's a headline! From Today's Zaman. The story is about the allegation that the head of Turkey's Wushu Federation (it is a martial art - you knew that didn't you?) bribed senior officials, and a referee, with Rolex watches to give the gold medal to his daughter.
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Any odds on the Rolex watches being fakes.?
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I bet the shoeboxes were :D
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You can halkbank on it.
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Escalation. Gulen "curses" those responsible for the purge of senior police officers.
"...Those who don't see the thief but go after those trying to catch the thief, who don't see the murder but try to defame others by accusing innocent people - let God bring fire to their houses, ruin their homes, break their unities,"
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-334604-for-first-time-gulen-curses-purge-of-police-officials-in-emotional-speech.html
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I think the gloves are coming off.
RTE is also blaming USA and their ambassador.
Not many innocents left now. :)
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And RTE has been blaming international interference for the "graft smears" and hinting he could expel the US Ambassador from Turkey. All huff and puff, of course, but an interesting way for the PM of a NATO member state to act.
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I think the gloves are coming off.
RTE is also blaming USA and their ambassador.
Not many innocents left now. :)
I'm amazed he hasn't blamed me for part of it - this is not normal :D
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He'll get you on your next visit ;)
Some of his utterances are more extreme than Gadaffi's.
I'm wondering if they will implode from the bottom up.
Also a lot depends on Gulens power base in Turkey.
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Maybe he's saving you for his trump card Keith! ;)
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The new axis of evil?
G
S C U N N E R
L
E
N
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I'm up for it if he is!
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I'm amazed he hasn't blamed me for part of it - this is not normal :D
He did... apparently he has a distant cousin named McDonald who dobbed you in. However he decided against any action as he didn't want to be named and shamed on CBF.
JF
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I'm shocked at Scunner and Gulen making the sign of the cross together. Dig deeper Colwyn.
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Gulen? I thought it was Galen. I was a big fan of Planet of the Apes.
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But in the axis of evil that would make you Scanner.
P.S. Why was it you were deported from the Planet of the Apes?
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I often receive PMs and emails to 'Scanner'.
Answer to the question: I was playing on a tyre without a permit.
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Went shopping and have got these available for recycle:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/G0FoJ-StYtiUc-I91W4eZHV6uSDuHaBfxuXhO56Uug=w216-h162-p-no)
Know anyone who could use them? ;)
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No end to it. Today the prosecutors ordered the police to arrest 30 more people
in connection with a second inquiry into corruption and bribes on the railways
and bidding tenders for public works going back 4 years.
The police have refused to carry out the arrests and the prosecutor has said
he will hold the police in contempt. One of the names on the alleged list would
explain the polices reluctance.
Since this afternoon the Daily Zaman appears to have gone offline. !!!!!
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No problem getting onto the Today's Zaman website from the UK.
Did you see however that Turkish Airlines have now stopped the distribution throughout the world of copies of Today's Zaman under orders of the government?
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Yes, it was reported last week but the government denied interfering.
I can now get Zaman, but it was showing a page stating "not available.
If you read all of the page regarding the 30 non-arrests and all the links
down the left hand side there's some damning stuff.!
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One of the names on the alleged list would explain the polices reluctance.
Yes, Bilal Erdogan is apparently now about to be arrested. Merry Xmas wee man.
Gezi style demo's been going on in Kadiköy all day and evening - needless to say the Polis response has been similar also...
JF
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I've not seen anything about the demo's.
It's probably been a penguin day on tv there.
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As far as I know its only Halk TV who have covered it and access is a bit sporadic on net - their site was down for long periods today.
JF
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Sky News now showing some footage of the demo's.
John F. I believe you are based in Istanbul and if so can I ask your views on the following.
Given Erdogans treatment of the police in the last few days would the police start to support
the demonstrators or at least refuse to attack them, as in uprisings in other countries.?
And given his treatment of the armed forces over the last few years would he be likely to
receive any help from that quarter if needed.?
The impression i'm getting is that despite some desperate and frantic attempts to thwart
all the investigations the situation is now unstoppable. The Turkish people deserve far better.
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Interestin question Kevin. My feeling is that usually in highly charged situations that it the army that may stand up to defend the public (as in Egypt for example). I don't recall the police doing this. I guess I may have got a false picture on that but I reckon people on the streets would trust the army far more than the police. Be interesting to hear what JohnF has to say.
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Kevin - I don't live in Istanbul; I have a house there but prefer not to be a full time resident. I work as an external consultant for one of the major Turkish owned law firms and visit the office as rarely as I can get away with ;)
We were discussing exactly what you've asked last night - over a 20yr old bottle of tawny port that didn't come from Lidl or Aldi - and the consensus is that the Polis will still do what they are told to do by their superiors. Any "mutiny" is more likely to seen from the Jandarma but the chances of that happening are still pretty unlikely.
Its not in the their nature to "rebel", look at the violence and atrocities carried out by AKP supporters during Gezi and the Polis just stood by and did nothing - or as in many cases, they simply joined in. The incidents I'm referring to here are the sideshows to the main protest where AK party members ran riot in the streets surrounding Taksim, in Izmir and to a lesser extent in Ankara. The Polis chiefs that were sacked are so far removed from the average Polis in the street that, as far as they're concerned, it makes no difference to the daily grind. Also, bear in mind this is Turkey... the faction in the ascendency one day may be on the way down the next - given the unemployment rate would you, as a small cog in the system, want to choose sides in a dispute that's way way above your head?
On that point, I read somewhere yesterday that there is a possibility the sacked Polis may now be reinstated after Güler, the Minister for the Interior resigned - cant remember where it was but only time will tell on that one.
Colwyn - no-one on the street trusts the Polis and never have done. They've abused their power in so many petty ways over the years that no-one has any respect for the average Polis they come in to contact with. I'm not saying they are all bad, just that to the man in the street (certainly in Istanbul) they are an organisation to be avoided at all costs. We've always brought our girls up with the rule that if they are out without us and have a problem you go to a shopkeeper or such like rather than the Polis.
Its thirty odd years since Evren initiated the coup that resulted in three years of military rule and after the past few years of purges, I just don't see there being anyone left anyone with a power-base (or desire) sufficient to do the same - to be honest, I don't really know enough about the current military to give an informed opinion, its just how I see it.
In 1997 coup that got shot of Erbakan, General Bir said "In Turkey, we have a marriage of Islam and democracy. The child of this marriage is secularism. Now this child gets sick from time to time. The Turkish armed forces is the doctor which saves the child." His pay back for that was to spend nine months in jail before being released this February for lack of evidence.
Maybe there's another General Bir or another General Evren sitting, watching and waiting. I honestly don't know and I'm not sure that military intervention is the way forward - frying pan and fire come to mind.
The thing to remeber is that this is Turkey - for all I know we might see the Polis downing shields and batons in Kadiköy tomorrow and by Saturday its tanks and soldiers on the street and Erdogan being led through the streets of Ankara in handcuffs!
Anyway, its a merry Xmas to all those who have been arrested, especially my most favourite arrestee, Mr Demir my local mayor who's construction policies have personally caused us serious grief over the past eight years... get it right up yeh Mustafa!
JF
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;D ;D ;D ;D
John
Thanks for the info'
Perhaps a "peaceful new year" is too much to hope for.
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My feeling is that usually in highly charged situations that it the army that may stand up to defend the public
This is from todays TZ:
The Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) has released a written statement regarding a graft probe which has dragged Turkey into political turmoil, saying as an institution fully devoted to the principles of the law, it has no intention whatsoever of becoming involved in political arguments.
The statement said: “There have been recent comments and statements published in the media concerning the [TSK] over the issue of graft which has dominated the Turkish agenda lately. The [TSK], carefully detaching itself from any political opinions and formations, serves the Turkish nation with the utmost loyalty. The TSK bases its duties on the commitment to the superiority of law and democratic principles. Within this framework, it has sensitively avoided any kind of damage that could hurt the identity of the TSK and with immense care will avoid political controversies, but will carefully follow and closely watch the graft probe."
JF
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Thanks John. This is a wonderfully worded statement, isn't it?
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Yes it is... maybe we do have an Evren or a Bir sitting, watching, waiting...
Its becoming like a bar fight between Erdogan and Gülen - lets just hope that, politically, there is someone to pick up the pieces irrespective of who wins as the prospect of either gaining total control (again!) is quite scary.
JF
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It's a non-threatening threat that may have both camps reflecting on the wisdom of their actions to date.
It's what it doesn't say that is the most powerful part.
Thanks John.
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"The TSK is absolutely committed to law, democracy and the TSK. Beyond that we make no promises."
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The best "face saving" compromise is for Erdogan to stand down and Gul to step up - or would he rather let his whole party fall on this sword ???
PS do it soon please before our savings dilute further :-\
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The best "face saving" compromise is for Erdogan to stand down and Gul to step up
Constitutionally, I don't think that's possible - although stand to be corrected if someone knows more.
JF
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Careful what you wish for, a replacement for RTE could just as easily be worse. Hard to believe, but very possible. :(
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I accept the process would not be as simple as a "handover".
This was published in July - and towards the end of the article references are made to Gul being a "more democratic option" - I think he is waiting in the wings (as long as he is not tarnished?) - a bit like Brown waiting for Blair to go - but clearly a much more damaging scenario.
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/07/gul-alternative-erdogan.html#
Sadly it may not be a controlled party led transfer until things have got much worse?
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So, Abdullah Gul could turn out to be the much needed 'dog in the manger' ??
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So, Abdullah Gul could turn out to be the much needed 'dog in the manger' ??
Very appropriate at Christmas :D
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From what i've read about Gul he's just a quieter version of RTE with a similar record, and not a very nice one.
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Have a read of this article - particularly the section headed "mud slinging........."
http://m.spiegel.de/international/world/a-907780.html#spRedirectedFrom=www&referrrer=http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=erdogan%20or%20gul%3F&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CEAQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Finternational%2Fworld%2Fguel-and-erdogan-engaged-in-a-power-struggle-in-turkey-a-907780.html&ei=kfS-UtiNHseohAeps4CoCA&usg=AFQjCNEU2I1HnLCd2xaeqoWsYnvZAbcrfQ
And read the last paragraph ….............
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Here is another article about Erdogan, lots more background information.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/10540423/The-politicians-sons-the-gold-dealer-and-the-pop-star-a-Turkish-tale-of-corruption.html
TC 8)
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Good article
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Interesting - it seems that the Gulen movement were instrumental in trials of many officers in the military in recent years and now numerous appeals are being lodged and this is seen as a "marriage of convenience" alliance between the military and the AKP party.
Likely the reason for the statement by the military earlier this week that they will not intervene in military matters.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1939e012-73da-11e3-beeb-00144feabdc0.html
A case of my enemy's enemy .....
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I watched this programme last night and I think it important for anyone living or going (as are me and mrs TC), to live their, watches this.
If the information is correct, not just about the journalists, but Erdogan as well, then to me it is deeply worrying.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03qw29g
TC
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I think we might call this "positioning" as President Gul makes conciliatory statement on TV
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-335741-.html
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Gul generally only plays good cop to Erdogan's bad cop - they are both cops and not the nice jolly bobby on the beat type. But Gul is right (and I agree with Ian, positioning himself well) - of course the economy should come first and of course any meddling with democratic law processes will erode confidence in the Turkish economy. This shows how desperate RTE has become - in his blind panic to keep power he has entirely lost the plot.
When you look at the Turkey Erdogan took over in 2003, love him or hate him, his handling of the economy turned things round entirely. Which makes the absolute pig's ear he is making of running the country in the last year or so even more disappointing to watch.
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I think he is more liberal - he also studied Economics at University and worked in a bank for almost 10 years - a background that should make him well qualified to see the self inflicted damage to the economy that is being done?
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Yet it has taken him all this time to bother to say so?
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I suspect you need a great deal of guile and patience to move an immovable object ;)
PS oh and very good timing or you may end up like the uncle in N Korea
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At least he was useful in the end: http://www.irishexaminer.com/world/cwojeycwojid/rss2/
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You cannot believe that someone could do that to anyone let alone a relative - and this man (the uncle) was "close" to China who at last are distancing themselves from the new regime.
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Typical Irish reporting. It was the dogs that had been starved for 3 days NOT the victims.
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Cannot believe that anybody could do that to another human being. Feel sick just thinking about it, however the news that 50 police officers sacked in Turkey for taking a lawful stance is also off my radar.
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/06/story-kim-jong-un-uncle-fed-dogs-made-up?CMP=fb_gu
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Is this the Chinese getting their own back for being fooled by the "Kim Jong Un voted world's sexiest man" by The Onion satirical magazine?
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not going to go away methinks
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/10539028/Turkey-PM-Erdogans-party-turn-on-him-as-corruption-probe-deepens.html
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That article is not new, 27/12/13.
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Always nice to read last month's news John ;)
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Bloomberg is now referring to the lira as being "in freefall" which seems rather dramatic but events today may make it plausible. Meanwhile some Turkish foreign ambassadors have (anonymously) spoken out against Erdogan's instructruction to Turkey's ambassadors that they "tell the truth" to foreign governments that current events are not a corruption probe but are instead an attempted coup. They say their job is to represent the Republic of Turkey not any particular political party.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-01-17/rate-increase-stamped-betrayal-keeps-lira-exposed-turkey-credit (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-01-17/rate-increase-stamped-betrayal-keeps-lira-exposed-turkey-credit)
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-336809-ambassadors-uneasy-over-erdogans-orders-concerning-graft-probe.html (http://www.todayszaman.com/news-336809-ambassadors-uneasy-over-erdogans-orders-concerning-graft-probe.html)
[Today's Zaman, part of Gulen's Hizmet movement, is running a hard hitting campaign against the current AKP Government and against Erdogan in particular.]
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Bloomberg is now referring to the lira as being "in freefall"
Wasn't it Bloomberg who recently heralded the imminent turn and fightback of the lira just a couple of weeks ago?
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Wasn't it Jim Fraser?
3.495 and 3.385 for me please. (confident of recovery)
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You're right, I'm always getting those two muddled up.
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so am i
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Always nice to read last month's news John ;)
Just testing :)
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This is the final paragraph of a report in Al Monitor which highlights recent comments made by President Gul at a meeting last week with a large group of Turkeys foreign ambassadors where he challenged the current stance the government is taking on supporting the rebels in Syria:
But to have Gul come out like this is not good for Erdogan, especially as the country starts preparing for this summer’s presidential elections that could see the much more levelheaded Gul as his principal political rival..
I made this point some weeks ago and I believe Gul would actually be more moderate and less dictatorial BUT displacing RTE will take some courage, guts and guile - we will see........
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And strong backing. Which, since it seems Gul remains loyal to Gulen, might be forthcoming.
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Agreed - although he might be wise not to play on that as RTE has tarnished the name and the reputation of the movement and will continue to do so.