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[usedbustickets]

Nichola and Rana you are probably correct that the majority of Turkey's employed skilled workers probably do not want to leave Turkey, although there are plenty who do, and indeed have... look at the Turkish diaspora in Germany, Austria, USA, Canada, UK for example.  The justifiable fear that many UK people have is large numbers of unskilled, mainly men, coming into the EU/UK if the borders were to be opened, seeking work and using scarce resources.  In much the same way as we have seen the mass movement of people inside Turkey in recent years from the rural areas to the urban areas, and for many to make another move to a different country is not such a difficult step once you or your family have made your break with your 'home' area.  An historical experience that has happened before in many other countries, including the UK, Ireland, Germany and also the USA.

[Rana]

I also see your point usedbustickets there are pro's and cons. My hubby doesn't want Turkey to join the EU and actually thinks it would be a mistake on our part for the same reasons you said. But also many Turkish people just want to experience a holiday in another country and have that freedom. I can't imagine if we didn't have freedom to holiday in many beautiful countries and have to go through all the red tape and visa application just for a 2 week holiday.

[nichola]

It's not a unjustifiable fear Peter it's racist fearmongering based on lies.

As you point out there are already many Turks living and working abroad and they were able to do that because of existing rules which have absolutely nothing to do with Europe.

Being part of the EU, or not, will do nothing to change that.

Perhaps the UK should leave the UN and NATO as well.

In an increadingly globalised world it just seems ridiculous to me for the UK to try and isolate itself further and reduce itself to a minor if not irelevant player.

[usedbustickets]

Now Nic you really need to calm it down, throwing about terms of racism and lies is not the way to either win hearts and minds and more particularly debates.  Perhaps its comes out of desperation because you can now see that a British exit from the EU is a real possibility, as I have suggested to you and others on a number of occasions.  Many people are fed up with the now very tired fear-instilling arguments of those who argue to remain.  And many of those are people fed up and indeed angry with with accusations or by implication that because they want out of the EU, they are in some way racist.  People are thinking it through and coming to their own conclusions, but key to the swing to exit is that people can see that the EU is out of touch, cannot do the jobs it was created for, operates outside of their democratic control and that going forward there will not be less EU power and legislation but more of it.

Being part of the EU will do nothing to change existing rules ... really??  I simply ask you whether you have you been paying attention to what Merkel and Junker have been saying or giving or agreeing with Turkey, up to and including a fast track to EU membership, in order to get themselves out of the mess that they have made for us all with the way the economic migrant issue has been handled.

No one from the Brexit side is suggesting that the UK leaves the UN (where we have a permanent seat on the Security Council) or NATO which has been the single most important organisation to European peace since WW2.  Although I would say that to be a member of both those organisations we do not need to ceed sovereignty or national laws and law making, and by and large they both do their jobs with the resources they have been given.

Yes it is an increasingly globalised world, but outside of the EU project which democratic nations are giving away national sovereignty, law making, fiscal and monetary control to supra-national organisations, simply to trade with one another?  Particularly one as inefficient as the EU.

[usedbustickets]

Rana you could be right about the need to make it easier for people to get holiday visas, but you do not need to be part of the EU to do that.  I too get frustrated about making visa applications to holiday in, say, the USA or India, but I have to accept that those countries and others have setup these laws/visa systems to protect their borders and people .... and that's what sovereign nations are entitled to do.

[Colwyn]

reduce itself to a minor if not irelevant player.

I think we should question whether this would be such a bad thing for the UK. Being a minor and/or irrelevant nation might mean that our politician would not feel obliged to take part in every war that the US joins in so that we wouldn't invade Iraq (twice) and Afghanistan and bomb Libya (thus turning the country into an ungovernable hellhole)and desire to bomb our our new ally Assad (except Parliament intervened). We could also save the billions we propose to spend on Trident the only "benefit" of which is that it allows some of our politicians to sit on the UN Security Council and swan about pretending they are major and relevant. The happiest nationality on the planet is the Danish and they don't waste their money on non-independent nuclear non-deterrents. I think I could swap bombs for happiness.

On the other hand,  leaving the EU would just be silly.

[usedbustickets]

reduce itself to a minor if not irelevant player.

I think we should question whether this would be such a bad thing for the UK. Being a minor and/or irrelevant nation might mean that our politician would not feel obliged to take part in every war that the US joins in so that we wouldn't invade Iraq (twice) and Afghanistan and bomb Libya (thus turning the country into an ungovernable hellhole)and desire to bomb our our new ally Assad (except Parliament intervened). We could also save the billions we propose to spend on Trident the only "benefit" of which is that it allows some of our politicians to sit on the UN Security Council and swan about pretending they are major and relevant. The happiest nationality on the planet is the Danish and they don't waste their money on non-independent nuclear non-deterrents. I think I could swap bombs for happiness.

On the other hand,  leaving the EU would just be silly.

Don't disagree with most of that Colwyn.  Although I would simply observe that should the UK leave the EU, my money would be on the happy Danes to be next on the list for an exit from the EU.

[Colwyn]

The UK, after Germany and France, is the most important EU country. Should we decide to leave it will be a politico-economic shock to the EU. This isn't because the EU is already weak and teetering, as I've heard some Outists declare, but any organization that loses one of its main members is going to experience trauma. Other countries leaving would one of the possible effects. In Britain we would face the prospect of Cameron being thrown out and the next PM being either Barmy Boris or Gormless Gove. On the other hand a Remain vote would cause the Tory Euroseptics, especially those b'stards who peed out of John Major's tent, to slather at the mouth and maybe leave the official Conservative Party to join UKIP or become the Dissident Conservative Party. It would take the Tories perhaps 20 years to recover. I know which prospect appeals to me.

[faymoore]

Listening to the debate last night chaired by PM David Cameron & Nigel Farage there was as expected, countless claims and counterclaims, facts, figures etc.. as each took their case to the nation.....

One particular point which I kept thinking about is this...

It was said that "On leaving the EU we will not be able to trade with other EU members (or at the very least we would need to re-negotiate trading conditions) which will effect our GDP etc... Loss of jobs, revenue streams etc..

If we were to leave (starting a possible domino effect) would those concerns not be nullified by allowing us to trade more freely with those other departing countries?

Dave.

[Colwyn]

No. The non-UK market of the EU is 440million people. Unless they all left then the population of the departing nations will be smaller. If UBT's bet on a departer is correct, Denmark only has a population of 5.6million. That would make up a tiny bit of the gap but it wouldn't nullify it. Perhaps that is why the Leave campaign don't mention it. Instead they see some magical sudden increase in our trade with China (the country that is dumping their steel on us and raising tariff barriers against our steel).