Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum

General Topics => All things that have nothing to do with Turkey => Topic started by: JohnF on January 12, 2018, 16:57:38 PM

Title: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: JohnF on January 12, 2018, 16:57:38 PM
Over the past few months I've had a few emails/PM's from folks asking about Spain, as in cost of living, house prices etc.  I also know a few folks who have already moved to Spain from Turkey and a few others are looking at Spain as their next destination so thought I'd make a few obserations as to what I see as the advantages/disadvantages of Spain, an EU country versus Turkey as I know it.  Feel free to add your thoughts.

I can really only talk about our neck of the woods, Cadiz province, which stretches from just after Estepona on the Costa del Sol in the east along to Cadiz and Jerez in the West.  Prices and processes vary from province to province, and local councils often have their own little quirks to add to the adventure.

House prices:  There is no doubt that property prices are higher in Spain than Turkey, a two or three bedroom apartment in a decent area will cost from €40,000 or thereabouts.  We've seen them for less, but these tend to be out in the periphery of towns, often in high rise blocks.  A three bed apartment (80-100 m2) in a nice block close to the centre will be closer to €60,000.

If you're willing to do a bit of work, in most towns and cities there are a lot of cheap properties - the current trend appears to be that Spaniards prefer living outwith the city centre where they can have a garden and parking isn't such an issue.  You see the evidence on a Sunday afternoon with folks dropping the granny/mother back in town before battering off to their 75m2 little box in the suburbs.

I know of several properties (houses) in our neighborhood, all 250m2 plus, that could be purchased for circa €120,000.  Ok, they will need work but with a good builder (and they are out there) you'll end up with a cracking property.

Alternatively, there are a lot houses in the 150m2 category for sale, ready to move into for circa €100,000.  Many of these will have roof terraces and internal patios, essential for summer temperatures here.

For the try before you buy experience, rentals are cheap - one or two bedroom apartments start of around €250/275 per month for a simple apartment rising to around €500 for a modern apartment with integral garage.  Houses vary depending on location and facilities, but kick off from around €400.

The buying process has similarities with Turkey in that very often folks do it themselves without using a lawyer.  Its all done at the notars office as opposed to the deeds office and the money is handed over then - certified bank cheque only in Cadiz, no cash allowed!  In my opinion, the overall process is pretty straightforward and if you do engage a lawyer, he will act in your best interest as they are far more strictly regulated than in Turkey.

Utilities: Definitely more expensive than Turkey.  Council tax (I.B.I.) rates are set by each local authority and are a percentage of your properties cadastral value (rateable value).  We pay €391 per annum for a 400m2 property so its a lot less than the UK but a lot more than Turkey.

Electricity and water again vary from region to region. In Jerez the water company also has responsibility for rubbish collection so we are paying roughly €25 per month just now, €11.50 of that is for waste removal, the rest our water consumption which is obviously variable. Electricty is a killer, we were €86 for December in a two bed flat, 'nuff said I reckon.

Community charges (aidat) are fairly low - ours is €30pm which includes all communal electricy, cleaning of communal areas and the repair and servicing of the garage lift and the lift between floors.  I know folks that pay a lot less in buildings without lifts.

Transport:  Like Turkey, secondhand cars are expensive when you have your UK head on - something that you'd look to pay £750-£1,000 for in the UK will set you back €3,000 here!  New cars are cheaper than their UK counterparts list prices and there are always promotions and incentives available - we're not sure what we're going to do when we get rid of our UK car in a few months time, given the prices and the issues with parking in Jerez we might not bother with a car and simply hire one as necessary.

Fuel prices vary quite a bit, we paid €1.07 (before our discount) last week for diesel, unleaded was €1.15.  You can save by using loyalty cards, we get 8% off by  using a Carrefour Club Card or fill up when close to Gibraltar, £0.87 for diesel - cant remember what unleaded was.

Insurance appears to be cheap, you insure the vehicle not the driver - that said, a new car may be a lot more than we're paying for our old banger!

Public transport is cheap and, as long as you're not going to or from the airport (surcharges apply), taxis are cheaper than the Fethiye area, but more expensive than Istanbul.  Local trains are pretty reasonable but for longer distances, just like in the UK, the further ahead you book it the cheaper it is.  A return from Jerez to Sevilla can vary between €11.50 to €17.00 depending on when you book and when you travel - journey takes about an hour and is about 90km.  Trains are clean and usually pretty punctual - seats are allocated automatically when you buy a ticket, no standing allowed apparantly.

I'll do food and drink in a couple of days, I've just got a hold of the latest Carrefour brochure for Turkey so will have a look at that and compare with the one for Spain - not very scientific I know, but a decent indicator I reckon.

Heading off now for a couple of tapa and a glass or two of a nice Ribero del Duro (€1.50 a pop) at our local bar - that'll take care of one comparison       :) 

JF



Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: kevin3 on January 12, 2018, 20:04:54 PM



     Is a one day bus ticket called a Diego. ??

     Can you take and keep a UK car there permanently.? We were looking to buy in Estapona  12 / 15 years ago but the prices

     were sky high. We had some lovely holidays looking though. Laid back evenings at the Bars around the Marina.     8)
Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: JohnF on January 12, 2018, 20:19:21 PM
Dunno Kevin, don't do buses  ;)

You can keep a UK car here as long as you change the plates and light units, but the general feeling is that it's not really worth it unless it's a classic or something a bit special.

Depending on the make and engine size you'd be looking at €1,000 plus for fees, taxes and parts - that's what we would end up paying for a two litre diesel Cmax.  Add in the sheer inconvenience of driving a RHD car in a country set up for LHD and the attraction of saving a few quid becomes less.  Think car parks, tolls etc.

JF
Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: saoirse on January 13, 2018, 08:20:50 AM
I am in the Valencia region and as you have highlighted prices and practices can vary quite a lot region to region as Spain operates almost on a federal system with taxes etc raised regionally

As a general rule after considerable experience of Turkey and now owning in Spain I would say it's virtually impossible to compare the two places as in one being better/ worse than the other

Again very generally  speaking I would suggest overall Spain is more expensive in some aspects  but I would also suggest quality when eating out,  infrastructure etc are a higher standard

I genuinely could not put one place above the other as it's not comparing apples with apples

I adore the area we now frequent but will def keep touch with Fethiye/Uzumlu as had some great times there
Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: JohnF on January 13, 2018, 13:43:13 PM
You're right, it would be wrong to suggest that one is better than the other, which is why I haven't.  That said, there are advantages and disadvantages associated with living in Spain versus Turkey and it is these I have highlighted. 

JF

Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: patrice on January 13, 2018, 14:20:03 PM
We recently bought in Cyprus in a lovely village called Tala and we love it there.The apartment is a little smaller but we gain by having our own private garden. We miss Turkey for the beautiful views and of course the cost of living is a lot cheaper but it balances out as the flights are more ready available all year round and are much more affordable compared to Turkey.
Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: saoirse on January 13, 2018, 14:41:58 PM
Oh the flights compared to Turkey are amazing for us both in frequency and  price

Whilst it's got better for 2018 last year- Belfast to Turkey, 1 flight a fortnight,  May to Oct around £300

Belfast to Spain     up to 32 flights a week, flights 12 months of year, from £29 return!!! ( and obviously around 2 hrs less fly time)
Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: stoop on January 14, 2018, 10:38:04 AM
I know that coastline JohnF as our friends have lived in the Chiclana area for the last fourteen years. Their current property has been on the market almost three years and still it won’t sell. Having looked there are so many for sale at €200k or just less. It’s a lovely 3 bed villa with pool, garage with roof top terrace and sea view and it’s in a large plot.

The area (Spanish Algarve) is lovely and I would recommend a visit to anyone. Flights are cheap too.

Buying for them was relatively straight forward but I remember their first home didn’t have full planning permission and that the had to sweat until it was five years old and they could apply retrospectively. They also said that about 25% of the purchase price was passed under the table to avoid tax. This is a common practice evidently.

I also remember they bought wine in bulk (plastic barrels) and it was dirt cheap and good quality. Local vineyard I think.

They are moving back for family reasons.
Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: saoirse on January 14, 2018, 11:37:35 AM
There are 4 winerys in my immediate area and as a non wine drinker I have no personal experience of it, friends who do imbibe tell me it is excellent

Whilst back in Ireland I saw the exact wine being sold in a  bar for €7 a glass. It is sold in bottles locally at €2.20,  and at the winery € 2.80 a litre
Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: JohnF on January 16, 2018, 15:28:49 PM
I'm not sure exactly how many wineries and bodegas we have in Jerez (fortyish maybe?), suffice to say that within a few minutes walk we have five or six of the major brands (Gonzalez Byass, Fundador, Lustau etc) and numerous smaller independent firms.  They're all very visitor friendly, even the ones that don't actively advertise bodega tours - you show an interest in sherry, they in turn are happy to let you see (and taste) what they produce.  We've also got the other two towns that make up the "sherry triangle", Sanlucar de Barrameda and El Puerto de Santa Maria, close by and they have thirty odd bodegas between them. 

Prices are ridiculous compared to the U.K.  At the higher end, a bottle of Gonzalez Byass Tio Pepe will cost you a tenner in the U.K. (€11.20) but can be had here for €5.95.  Move away from "big brand" bottles and its €1.75 - €2.00 for decent quality manzanilla and fino.  Oloroso and amontillado a bit more but still a fraction of the U.K. price.  I've no idea how much it is in Turkey as the only time I've ever seen sherry anywhere in Turkey has been in major hotels in Istanbul - although I wouldn't bet against Car Cemetery having a bottle or two tucked away!

Being the epicentre of the sherry industry has advantages - every tabanco and most bars have their house sherry for €1 a glass.  Once you work out who has your favourite, happy days.

It's not all just about sherry though, there are several wineries that produce some excellent red and white wines that are rarely seen outside Spain.  Prices vary from a few euros to "bloody hell, how much!" per bottle, and having tried a good few across the range, I can honestly say I haven't found one I didn't enjoy.  For every day drinking (so to speak   :) ) we either buy a local (Tierra de Cadiz) white wine for just over €2 or a Verdejo for €2.45.  Tend to spend a bit more on reds, but only by a couple of euros.

Oh wait...  I didn't mention the local brandy, did I?  Brandy de Jerez has its own D.O. (denomination of origin) and differs from other Spanish brandies in that it is aged in old sherry casks which apparently affects the taste - I'm not a great lover of brandy so I take their word for it   :)

I sometimes think that this region should carry a government health warning regarding alcohol consumption!  But then again, I see the old guys sitting with a glass of oloroso at nine or ten in the morning and they all look fit as fiddles!

JF
Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: Scunner on January 16, 2018, 23:36:30 PM
I think I've driven on the Gonzalez bypass
Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: JohnF on January 17, 2018, 01:30:05 AM
 :)

JF
Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: JohnF on March 21, 2018, 11:30:17 AM
If I'm being honest, my initial thoughts were that in most cases Turkey would be considerably cheaper than Spain when it came to food and drink (and general shopping) with Spain coming out on top solely for alcohol.

Surprisingly that is not the case.

What I found was that for market style shopping, frut, veg, yoghurt, loose grains and pulses etc, Turkey is cheaper.  Not by a huge margin though as the markets here can be pretty cheap when you stick with local grown seasonal produce, as opposed force grown crap from The Netherlands or stuff with more air miles than a salesman for IBM. 

Once you start looking at supermarket shopping, things become even closer.  I used Carrefour as a comparitor as it's got a presence in both countries - ok, maybe not the biggest chain in Turkey, but hey I wasn't going to do an in depth study.  Things like milk and olive oil are cheaper in Spain as is fresh meat, especially beef.  Pork is Spain's lamb and can be bought everywhere for well under €5/Kg for most cuts.  Lamb in Spain is expensive, as is the very young milk fed lamb (cordero lechal), although in case of the latter, it's well worth paying that bit extra! 

Fish is more expensive in Spain, but again, when you use the municipal markets the price difference narrows - I'm basing this on memory and a chat to friend in Turkey the other day so not exactly a robust methodology!

International branded goods are similarly priced, dishwasher tabs, detergents etc, and with store cupboard staples such as tinned and dried goods its very much swings and roundabouts.  The supermarket own brands, or those from lesser known manufacturers I'd say are cheaper in Turkey.

Consumer electronic goods such as televisions, tablets, phones are definitely cheaper in Spain, as are branded white goods from companies such as AEG and Bosch.  Beko is everywhere here and as cheap as chips.

Bottom line is that when it comes to food shopping, Turkey is cheaper but not by the amount you'd think.  What makes food shopping in Spain worth (to me) the difference is the diversity and quality of the produce, especially when it comes to meat, charcuterie and cheese.

Eating out

I think its possible to eat out in Spain almost as cheaply as in Turkey, lots of small bars have their menu del dia where you get two or three courses plus a drink (wine, beer or soft) for between €5 and €10.  In our neck of the woods, tapas sizes are often a lot larger than those served up on the Costa del Sol, Costa Blanca etc and unless you're in super greedy mode, three tapa are often enough for two folks.  Add on a couple of drinks each and you'd struggle to reach €20, more often it'd be closer to €15.

One major difference is in how restaurants operate - you rarely see the typical Turkish resort menu listing more dishes than you could chuck a frying pan at.  Restaurants tend to stick to one style of cuisine, and do it well rather than trying to do food from all corners of the globe. When it comes to "ethnic" food, Indian restaurants to have Indian chefs, Chinese restaurants Chinese chefs and so on.  Only problem in Spain is that folks generally don't like spicy food so when ordering anything with spice heat you need to specify "muy picante", very spicy. 

There is also the variety of restaurants in Spain, away from tourist areas you don't find a dozen places all serving up basically the food - Fethiye is a bit different to many places in that it does have a good selection of restaurants (some very good indeed) but I've always found the food in Turkey a touch...  not sure of the best word here but I suppose similar might be it.  Look how successful Mozaiz Bahce is, I think its because they offer something different.

Where Spain really wins over Turkey is with alcohol prices.  Many of us like a glass of wine with (and without      :) ) food and in my opinion the majority of the affordable Turkish wines are pretty poor quality.  I've tasted some superb Turkish wines over the years but the production levels are low and the prices sky high.  In Andalucia locals tend not to buy a bottle of wine with a meal, folks tend to drink it by the glass - you can often spot a tourist because they have a bottle at the table.  Even higher end places always have a good selection of wines by the glass, to go alongside their extensive wine lists which feature mainly domestic wines.  You'll get the odd bottle of NZ or OZ, but they tend to be expensive in comparison.

Beer  :) I've never known anywhere to have so many names for different sizes of beer! Caña, doble, copa, maceta, jarra, tubo, botella, all mean the same thing, just different sizes.  The smallest measure, a caña, can be had for less than a euro and the actual amount you'll get varies from bar to bar!  Roughly €2 for 50cl and not a drop of Efes in sight, Estrella and Cruzcampo are the most common down here.  Works out about 8tl for a 50cl, but what price can you put on quality.

The gap in pricing here is only likely to get wider, another increase in Special Consumption Tax is due in June I think and you can guarantee alcohol, especially imported alcohol, will take another hit.

Food for thought      :)

JF
Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: Ray1951 on March 21, 2018, 14:19:36 PM
A fantastic post with lots of great information.  I don’t want to dampen anyone’s spirits but things could change drastically after March 2019.  I recently looked at an off plan apartment in Costa Del Sol.  The price was £120K for a two bed, to bathroom. The facilities were outstanding, there was a rooftop swimming pool, lift.  The building was only three stories high.  The kitchen units were not included in accordance with most new build properties but all the electrics, plumbing and AC were installed.  Flights are so cheap outwith the peak summer months.  It costs more for a return train ticket from Glasgow to Manchester.
Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: Taddy on March 21, 2018, 15:11:27 PM
some very good points regarding beer/wine,  and food variety in the Spanish regions.  I am not the only one who possibly thinks Efes is not the greatest beer in the world, and wishes for more choice. But as a predominantly Muslim country this is how it is.
  I enjoy Spain, and would not hesitate to go for the right deal, as had some cracking hols there. One point I would make about the Fethiye area is IMO the higher end restaurants are better value for money than in the parts of Spain I have been to. Overall I find the service and cleanliness better too in Turkish restaurants, and certainly in the hotels I have visited.
Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: JohnF on March 21, 2018, 15:18:50 PM
I don’t want to dampen anyone’s spirits but things could change drastically after March 2019. 

Only for U.K. citizens, being an Irish citizen March 2019 is unlikely to have any effect on my status.  That said, there are plenty of folks living in Spain who are not E.U. citizens and there is (fairly) robust process in place for obtaining residencia. 

No one can predict the future, especially where politics is concerned, but the local Andulucian (and national) government has made many reassuring noises over the past few months in respect of U.K. citizens who live and work in this region, and Spain as a whole.  There are a lot.  Many working as language teachers, many with small/medium sized businesses and a good proportion are retired.  They generate a lot of revenue in the way of taxation, both on a regional and local level and they do not want to lose that income stream, the economy here is in a pretty bad way.

The only sticking point may turn out to be Gibraltar.  Time will tell.

JF
Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: saoirse on March 22, 2018, 12:08:04 PM
some very good points regarding beer/wine,  and food variety in the Spanish regions.  I am not the only one who possibly thinks Efes is not the greatest beer in the world, and wishes for more choice. But as a predominantly Muslim country this is how it is.
  I enjoy Spain, and would not hesitate to go for the right deal, as had some cracking hols there. One point I would make about the Fethiye area is IMO the higher end restaurants are better value for money than in the parts of Spain I have been to. Overall I find the service and cleanliness better too in Turkish restaurants, and certainly in the hotels I have visited.

Obviously it's very much a personal opinion/ experience on these matters but I would have the entire opposite opinion 're higher end restaurants Fethiye v Spain as I would have to put Espana a long long way ahead both for quality and service

For me as a general experience alcohol/ restaurants are considerably better particularly for both choice and value in Spain.

I feel Turkeys aggressive " no foreigners running restsurants " mentality limits it's scope considerably and for many establishments  it's only this protection from competition that keeps them afloat

Certainly if Irish, British German etc were given free hand to open competing bars /restaurants I reckon many of  the Turkish rice n chips style set ups would struggle
Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: JohnF on March 22, 2018, 14:33:49 PM
One point I would make about the Fethiye area is IMO the higher end restaurants are better value for money than in the parts of Spain I have been to. Overall I find the service and cleanliness better too in Turkish restaurants, and certainly in the hotels I have visited.

Hmmm... not sure that's the case.  I've no idea where you've been or eaten in Spain but I can say, in my opinion, as far as quality is concerned the higher end restaurants in Spain are miles ahead of anything in Turkey, never mind the Fethiye area.  I know some folks think it's a bit snobby, but check out how many Michelin starred restaurants there are in Turkey.

Personally I find the level of service in my neck of the woods great - there are a few places where you know the service is crap and you either avoid them or go there and simply deal with it.  The fawning and obsequious (and at times over friendly) service I've experienced in Fethiye is a complete turn off for me - you never get that from the old school waiters in Istanbul and I've never had it in Spain.

Anyway, often quality and service are pretty subjective so its lucky we're all different.

JF


Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: saoirse on March 22, 2018, 15:51:21 PM



I specifically  highlighted "superior to Fethiye" because that's the yardstick the poster I quoted had used- but it is indeed entirely subjective almost pointless

Whilst I spent around 13 years in the Fethiye region I obviously cannot speak of experience of all of  Turkey

My point is compared to the area I knew- and that referenced by the poster- I find ( generally) my current area ( Valencia region) superior for food and drink. However not for everything....
Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: JohnF on March 22, 2018, 17:21:35 PM
I just reread my previous post and thought I'd clarify my comments re service - I know not everywhere is like that, but many are.  Probably why my favourite places locally are Yengec and Pasa  :) both places very professionally run.

JF
Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: davybill on March 23, 2018, 12:26:03 PM
There is some good English breakfasts in Benidorm,
Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: mercury on March 30, 2018, 17:52:50 PM
And some very good we'll run hotels that are immaculate as it goes.. Just had a week in Benidorm the food in the hotel was excellent..and as clean as I have ever seen a hotel. ????????
Title: Re: Turkey v Spain... Spain v Turkey...
Post by: Scunner on March 30, 2018, 19:15:39 PM

 why my favourite places locally are Yengec and Pasa   :) both places very professionally run.

JF

Probably my favourite two also, service playing a big part of that. I think that's the thing though - we have had good and bad service everywhere. In Portugal last year some truly appalling service but also some very good. In fairness I would say I would rate overall standard of service across the board to be higher in Spain than Turkey (or Portugal) but it depends on what you like - I like the more familiar approach in Turkey (to a degree) but if that isn't for you then you are in trouble  :)

The thing with Portugal is you can put up with a bit of bad service when the wine is so good and cheap 8)