Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
Calis Beach Forum => Expat & Property Owners Q and A Forum => Topic started by: Inspector on April 04, 2017, 14:31:18 PM
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We have completed a Daily rental registration regarding to new regulations.
Applicant living and employee in UK
Important note: If you live in the UK and you are still working as a worker or employer under social security you will not need SGK registration. If you are living in Turkey or you can not prove your social security in the UK, you have to register as SGK as employer and pay a monthly premium.
It has 3 steps
1- Tax registration
2- Buying the pay software for police system and installing.
3- Apply to the police and get the user id and password.
After that, they are going to continue their summer holiday rentals with an accountant fee of 200 Lira per month. At the end of the summer, they will close the tax record.
The accountant will follow all transactions on a monthly basis and do the police ID system entry for them.
In October they will close the tax registration and stop paying 200 for accountant.
They will just pay 200 lira monthly accountant fee plus 34 lira stamp tax. Income and expences will declered by accountant and will pay %20 income tax. (expences= water bill, electric bill, maintanance, garden, swimming pool,accountants fee and registering as tradesman expences.)
The cost ;
300 Lira tax registration
50 Lira Translators fee at tax office
110 Lira Passport translation and notarisation
35 Lira Notarized signuture sample
30 Lira Translators fee at notarisation process
300 Lira software and instalation for Police ID system
TOTAL 825 lira
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Nice to see someone being up front about charges etc.
From what I can see, it also means you are independent of any "collective", your main guy being the accountant who will also do your taxes for you. All in all a far more transparent proposition.
Probably not for the casual, one or two weeks a year renter, but at roughly £50 a month (plus tax deductible set up charges) not a bad deal if you're getting a few hundred quid a week during the season.
JF
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Probably not for the casual, one or two weeks a year renter, but at roughly £50 a month (plus tax deductible set up charges) not a bad deal if you're getting a few hundred quid a week during the season.
As say, not so good for the casual renter and those of us who don't rent period!
If, like us, you've only got friends and extended family using the property on just three occasions between now through to October and not charging anything, that's now £350 in monthly fees plus around another £200 the setup costs on zero income.
So, costing me over £500 even though my apartment is not a business interest and I'm kind enough to very occasionally have those close to me stay there when I'm not using it.
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Burası Türkiye!
JF
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Applicant living and employee in UK
Important note: If you live in the UK and you are still working as a worker or employer under social security you will not need SGK registration. If you are living in Turkey or you can not prove your social security in the UK, you have to register as SGK as employer and pay a monthly premium.
What is SGK ?
I know I am going to get a load of answers to this, but the way I see this I work in the UK own a house in Turkey, do not rent it out so I pay nothing Correct ??
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Applicant living and employee in UK
Important note: If you live in the UK and you are still working as a worker or employer under social security you will not need SGK registration. If you are living in Turkey or you can not prove your social security in the UK, you have to register as SGK as employer and pay a monthly premium.
What is SGK ?
I know I am going to get a load of answers to this, but the way I see this I work in the UK own a house in Turkey, do not rent it out so I pay nothing Correct ??
From my understanding, SGK is similar to National Insurance in the UK.
And, if you are not renting and you don't allow friends or family use your property for free when you are not there yourself, then you need do nothing. Though I would suggest having a copy of your Tapu to hand in case of an inpromptu inspection.
If you do rent, then The Inpectors post seems clear and very informative.
It's the grey area in between where you don't charge rent but do have friends and family stay that is causing the most confusion.
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What is SGK ?
In this context it means Social Security.
I know I am going to get a load of answers to this, but the way I see this I work in the UK own a house in Turkey, do not rent it out so I pay nothing Correct ??
Yes Ron - as long as no-one is there without the property owner being present, you're in the clear.
JF
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well thats buggered then, our kids go out, and pay zilch
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Thanks for the information Inspector :)
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Can I please confirm that this new rule, does not affect long term renters with a contract does it. We rent long term, but will a]have the kids over in summer at no cost.
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Thank you, very helpful. When you say "we" have just completed a daily rental registration, does that mean you have done it for yourselves or have you helped/organised this on behalf of somebody else who is renting there property out?
Hope that makes sense!
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Thank you, very helpful. When you say "we" have just completed a daily rental registration, does that mean you have done it for yourselves or have you helped/organised this on behalf of somebody else who is renting there property out?
Hope that makes sense!
I have forwarded an UK citizen (who is living and working in UK) to an accountant and they have completed the process in two days. They fly to UK yesterday.
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Thanks for all these details and figures - I am just about to embark on the process myself.
Just one question - my ( limited ) understanding was that there was a second part of the process which involved the premises being inspected ( presumably by some one from the Belediye) as being suitable for rent.
I had a feeling that this involved fire safety etc.
Did you complete this process as well ??
Cheers
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Received a quote from Rainbow. Property Management.£250 per year and also new Rental Management which includes registering guests, registering tax with accountant, closing account end of season £250 per year. Also extra fee of approx £200 to get you started on the system. ı am waiting on a reply from a few extra questions I've asked so will update as soon as.
Hope this helps cover some questions.
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What must be annoying for some is the fact that they maybe let friends stay in their home a couple of weeks a year and took a nominal fee from them to cover electric, water, cleaning, etc and maybe a little more.
This system, according to some reports, means this can no longer happen without registering as a business and paying all the costs involved.
So we have a situation where there will be many owners who will no longer risk letting friends (and maybe even daughters) stay. This means those people will probably go to Spain, Portugal or wherever and spend their money in those countries.
It's also annoying because the chances are that two to four weeks rental income would not incur tax charges yet these owners are effectively banned from casually renting their property.
Hopefully things become more transparent over the next few months but at the moment we have had to tell friends they can't use our place this year or in the future.
I expect many homes to go on the market over the next few months. Maybe that's the idea behind this?
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What must be annoying for some is the fact that they maybe let friends stay in their home a couple of weeks a year and took a nominal fee from them to cover electric, water, cleaning, etc and maybe a little more.
This system, according to some reports, means this can no longer happen without registering as a business and paying all the costs involved.
So we have a situation where there will be many owners who will no longer risk letting friends (and maybe even daughters) stay. This means those people will probably go to Spain, Portugal or wherever and spend their money in those countries.
It's also annoying because the chances are that two to four weeks rental income would not incur tax charges yet these owners are effectively banned from casually renting their property.
Hopefully things become more transparent over the next few months but at the moment we have had to tell friends they can't use our place this year or in the future.
I expect many homes to go on the market over the next few months. Maybe that's the idea behind this?
One of the reason we sold up and issues on the complex such as disputes with management and lack of maintenance payments from new owners .Sad but at least we managed to sell without losing our investment.
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Exactly the position we're in, Stoop.
However, we have friends and family who had already booked flights before all this flared up. I am not going to let them down and cancel them, especially as in one case, the use of our place is also our wedding present to them and it will be their honeymoon.
Consequently, this will actually mean we are out of pocket because of the new regulations for the year.
However, I don't think this will mean we will sell up but, it does mean that we'll no longer be letting friends and family stay.
If you multiply several owners doing the same, I do wonder what effect this will have on local businesses and how much of a hit they will take.
And if you want to take it a step further, what about property sales? How many people took the plunge and bought their own property because they stayed in somebody elses private apartment/villa for a few days fell in love with what the lifestyle offers? These people will now only experience it through the commercial hotel experience which, I'm sure you'll agree, is vastly different from having somewhere to call your own.
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Can someone just clarify this please:
I am in full time employment in the UK and therefore pay National Insurance /tax.
I own and rent out my apartment.
My understanding from this post is that I do not need to register under the new rules?
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
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As I understand it, if you own a property in Turkey and rent it out, you need to register. Your UK tax status/situation does not come into it.
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Scunner, thats what I thought. Its this bit of the post that is now confusing me:
Applicant living and employee in UK
Important note: If you live in the UK and you are still working as a worker or employer under social security you will not need SGK registration. If you are living in Turkey or you can not prove your social security in the UK, you have to register as SGK as employer and pay a monthly premium.
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
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I expect many homes to go on the market over the next few months.
Why? Surely not because of these regulations.
This year will be the first year that we don't find ourselves in the position a lot of folks are, i.e. having friends and family using an apartment for a nominal charge.
If we were still in that position then, maybe because we're just a bit more pragmatic about things like this in Turkey, we'd simply bite the bullet and register the property as folks are having to do. Yes, its another outlay, but not a massive amount - £179 set up fee and £50pm for the months that you rent or have friends staying. If that's enough to make someone sell up then then I'd say they're just looking for an excuse to sell.
Over the years we've owned several properties in Turkey and operated two businesses, one a limited company, so nothing really surprises me any more when it comes to Turkish bureaucracy and ways the government and tax man manage to squeeze money out of the guy in the street. The hotel associations have been lobbying for more regulation of the private rental sector for some time and with the introduction of new regulations relating to registering daily rentals, I suspect the government thought they could kill two birds with the one stone. Happy days for the Maliye...
I reckon some folks think these new regulations are aimed at foreign owners - they aren't. Turks who rent out their place have to jump through the same hoops as everyone else - Turkish friends with a place in Bodrum just signed up, even though their bookings for the past two years have been minimal.
My understanding from this post is that I do not need to register under the new rules?
Keith's right, you need to register but you wont need to register and pay SGK.
JF
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Thank you, please forgive my ignorance but I am still struggling with what I need to do.
I have read an article in the Fethiye times that says that to register on the police system is free. Its a case of turning up with passport and Tapu then recieving a crash course in how to use the software then away we go.
Are all the other fees for translators , passport translation as so forth all to do with tax registration?
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This is a reply to my further questions i asked Rainbow.
We are only offering this service to owners that have
Property Management, Rental Management and sign a rental declaration with us.We need to ensure we have total control of who is coming and going because we are seen by the authorities as taking full responsibility for the reporting process. The consequences of providing inaccurate information are very severe.
This also means that at the end of each season we will calculate your rental income tax on your behalf and arrange to pay it to the tax office. There maybe a small charge at the end of the year when we pay the tax over, at the moment he charges 100TL.
We have purchased a multi usage system from the Government so we can input guests each day of the season, the cost of this to owners is £150 and this is a one off payment.
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"If that's enough to make someone sell up then then I'd say they're just looking for an excuse to sell."
Maybe not enough in itself but it's definitely another nail in the coffin.
Also - how weird is it if you can't let your married daughter or your in laws stay in your home without having to pay for the privilege?
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A question for the Inspector, or anyone else who can answer really, regarding the Accountant you have to employ to do your tax returns.
Do you have to give them any Power Of Attorney on your property to "run it as a company", and if so what would that POA allow them to do?
Reason I ask is because being up in the Hisaronu/Ovacik area there's a lot of painful memories around regarding people losing their properties due to allowing POA.
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You can't give a POA "on a property". A POA can only be granted to an individual (or company) to act on your behalf - it can be limited by both time (e.g. a date) and by task.
To the best of my recollection, our accountant has never required a POA to act on our behalf in any dealings with the taxman.
JF
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Thanks JohnF
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Just enquired at the police about registering. We were told my hubby or solicitor (brother-in-law) has to be in Fethiye to register & fill forms. We told them we have guests coming this month and police said no hurry just register when we go there in Summer as long as guest isn't paying. Also he said if not registered or have paying guest you will get a warning first, no fine.
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Just enquired at the police about registering. We were told my hubby or solicitor (brother-in-law) has to be in Fethiye to register & fill forms. We told them we have guests coming this month and police said no hurry just register when we go there in Summer as long as guest isn't paying. Also he said if not registered or have paying guest you will get a warning first, no fine.
... I'm confused! What is this 'registering'?
If you don't intend to make guests pay for staying at your home then what is the registering for? Is it to show that you simply let others stay in your home for free?
Our scenario is simple:
Once I am placed on the Tapu in June our home will be officially owned by myself and our friend. We both have wives and both have two grown up boys.
I take it that if any us stay then we have no need to register as our surnames will be the same?
If we want our married sisters, nephews or nieces to stay (those who have a different surname) then I'm assuming we might fall foul of the law?
Strange system when I could in effect let my nephew's daughter stay because she has my surname yet I can't let my sister or brother-in-law stay because they haven't!
In reality I could let my nephew's son's, son's, son's, daughter stay if I live long enough ;)
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Basically he is saying anyone can stay if they don't pay. It's more to do with tax. We were under the impression we had to register guests into the police system but seems there is no hurry for this. Seems they are a little relaxed about it.
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That all sounds quite positive Rana, not that i rent out im just following this thread as I do feel like sadly its going to cause tourism figures to drop again when things were looking like they were on the up for this season...My flight Monday ( which i did not go on in the end)had sold out when i checked it last weekend, so that was good for all things Turkey and tourism,..as another member said in the beginning this was meant to be for anti terrorist purposes and then suddenly seemed to be about in my humble opinion a money making scheme...
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ahh - so it's simply a register of guests? A bit like we have been doing with our Sitesi managers for the last couple of years.
I'll look into this a little more when we are over next month. If it means we can let friends and family stay (and just pay the sitesi manager for the electricity they use) then that will be all we need.
Thanks
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We feel a little more relaxed now. Also they are monitoring suspects more than regular Joes. We are going to look into registering when we come over and update info. We have been quoted ridiculous prices from Agents to set this system up but seems it is quite straightforward. Many companies making big money out of this.
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Many companies making big money out of this.
Burasi Turkiye ! ;)
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Many companies making big money out of this.
Yes, you're right. However the deal Inspector put together seems decent value if you're going down that road - after the initial set up, its about £50 a month which if you're doing summer rentals (assuming things pick up a bit) you'll recoup. All the charges are tax deductible as well and I'm sure you could negotiate either opening the "season" later or finishing earlier.
JF
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When i said the new rental rules appear to be turning into a money making scheme for some i in no way meant Inspector ( just in case anyone thought that!) i have huge admiration for Inspector using his own time to come on here and post for all of us his valuable knowledge when things like this happen... ;)i
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ahh - so it's simply a register of guests? A bit like we have been doing with our Sitesi managers for the last couple of years.
I'll look into this a little more when we are over next month. If it means we can let friends and family stay (and just pay the sitesi manager for the electricity they use) then that will be all we need.
Thanks
Stoop - we're out here now and have spoken at length with Cenk and cleared up the grey area for those of us who do not rent commercially and only have friends and family stay.
Unfortunately, we are completely disadvantaged by the new rules and it basically means that you can't let friends and extended family stay for just a nominal fee for electricity, etc. or even for free.
The only way around this is to go through the full registration process (IIRC with all the necessary fees an initial 2500TL set up). You then have to have an accountant so you'll have to spend money each month to prove you earned no money! You would then also have to report anybody staying at your property using the online system between midnight and 1:30am every day. (Oh, and if the system crashes or just simply gets overloaded (which is likely!) then you'll have to take a physical paper copy to the Polis station first thing the following morning to avoid a fine!)
As long as it is an immediate family member (grandfather/mother, mother/father, son/daughter, grandchild), with the same surname, then this will not be a problem. If the immediate family member does have a different surname then the advice is to have a birth and/or marriage certificate to hand to prove parentage links. Aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews and cousins with different surnames may well be a problem though and the polis may well not accept they are relatives.
There is also no problem having any friends or family to stay as long as an owner is staying at the property at the same time.
Cenk's advice was to cancel any friends or extended family coming over this year and see if things get a bit more relaxed in 2018. Not great when they've already booked flights but, as KKOB said 'Burasi Turkiye!'
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The only way around this is to go through the full registration process (IIRC with all the necessary fees an initial 2500TL set up). You then have to have an accountant so you'll have to spend money each month to prove you earned no money! You would then also have to report anybody staying at your property using the online system between midnight and 1:30am every day. (Oh, and if the system crashes or just simply gets overloaded (which is likely!) then you'll have to take a physical paper copy to the Polis station first thing the following morning to avoid a fine!)
No, there are alternatives as others have shown in this topic such as using a maintenance company that does all of the above for you, or alternatively setting up the system demonstrated by Inspector in the very first post in this topic.
I now know of several more folks (not members here) who have "gone legal" and registered with the relevant authorities either off their own back or via their maintenance company. To quote one of them, "can't see what all the fuss is about, they've invested anywhere between £50,000 and £150,000 as a holiday home and they're complaining about an extra few hundred quid a year", or words to that effect.
It's not relevant to us any more, but if it was then we'd deal with it. Just the same as you have to deal with the constantly shifting goalposts of Turkish bureaucracy and laws on a daily or weekly basis or annual basis.
JF