Written by Carolyne & Luke
Apologies for the delay in putting 'our' side forward. Personal circumstances leave very little time to write in depth whilst trying to keep to the facts. I know that there are 'some' with very negative thoughts about our situation, I only ask you to place yourselves in our shoes & not judge this based on nothing more than 'friendship' with either party.
...
Over the last few years I have faced many accusations and misunderstandings and tried to answer some in emails with Carolyn but another always surfaces. I don’t think Carolyn is necessarily lying and I have nothing to lie about. I had been good friends with Carolyn for about 14 years but once others set doubts in her mind and we were no longer talking it was easy for those others to become involved, all with an opinion on events they knew nothing about or because they wanted to manipulate the situation.
Others, have certainly manipulated, this was only made possible when the support I thought I had vanished within a year of agreeing to buy off-plan. Not, the treatment one would expect from a friend of 14 years standing.
Over the last few years she often makes posts on here with odd references to her “Ex English Friends” who conned her, persuaded her etc etc and made accusations in bars around Calis. But last week ( its taken me a week to post this as we were away for part of last week ). she chose to name me and my husband and that prompted this post. it’s a one off post which will not be turned into a “he said, she said” kind of post and will be the only comment I have to make on the situation. So sorry it’s a bit long but I wanted it all done in one go as its brought back many unhappy memories of our last few months in Turkey.
The last communication I had with Carolyn was by email around 2008 when I offered to meet up face to face with her to try to sort things out. 14 years of good true friendship I never wanted to lose. Her friendship was important to me, worth more than any amount of money.
We did correspond for a short while. You met up with Mustafa to talk with him about everything, he said I owed money (£5.000), I said I didn't, you said you were in the middle & didn't know what the truth was! I wrote back & said how hurt I was that after all the years you'd known me you didn't know I was telling the truth. That was the final nail for me Elaine.
I do feel very upset for her at the way things have turned out, I know what its like to be ripped off in Turkey and feel helpless in a horrible haze of lawyers, paperwork, debt and to feel you have lost your savings. I would not wish that on anyone but hitting out verbally at everyone involved at the start does not help, non of us had crystal balls and could foresee she would not get her tapu.
I have Not hit out verbally at 'everyone'!. Nobody has a crystal ball, but you did know the system & people who may have been able to help me put it right in the early stages, however you didn’t help, you let us use a non-notarised contract, you told us the building was almost finished however when another friend visited the ‘building site’ nothing had happened, we then had to make another trip over to see exactly what the situation really was.
The most common and repetitive accusation made by Carolyn about us her “Ex English Friends are I think - not entirely sure how this is an accusation. It’s a statement, friends don’t lie to each other or give them knowingly false advice.
1. Persuasion to visit Turkey .(2004)
I have been told how I am responsible for her ever coming to Turkey in the first place as without me being there she would never have set foot in the country.
Yes I did tell her how happy we were and delighted with our decision to move to Turkey. I saw this as normal conversation between friends about how life was going not persuasion.
How would life be if we could never talk to a friend about things we have enjoyed, done , experienced in case we influence them to do something they may later regret.
You wrote letters to both myself & my son inviting us. He was understandably overjoyed with the thought of his first solo flight & trip abroad & I was of course happy to be visiting you in your new home. My son stayed with you & John in that property for 2 weeks before I arrived for my 2 weeks. By that time you had the little villa, your new 4 bed detached & your Violet apartment was just about finished, we, or I, swam in the pool there one day. I was interested in buying one of those but you told me they were more than my budget.
2. Persuasion to buy her apartment, contract 1. (2004)
Carolyn phoned me and said she would like to come out on holiday. Having lived for many years in Italy and with her son now 15 and probably flying the nest in a few years she craved to get back to the sun of the Mediterranean on a regular basis. She asked me to source out a few good estate agents, pass on her requirements and how much she was willing to pay and arrange viewing for the first week of her holiday. I contacted various agents and 3 got back to me. By August I was 5 months pregnant so I did go on a couple of viewings ( John discovered a need to clean the pool pump room or something rather than come) I loved the villia shown by Heidi and Keith of Taurean (yes its back in the early Taurean days) It was one of the lovely little villas at Telemessos right by the pool, good price for a quick sale as the owner was a tour rep or something like this and was transferring to a different country to work, fully furnished right down to the knives and forks. I thought this would be ideal, I did tell Carolyn how great I thought it was, but I think Butlins was included in her response, although she never bothered to turn up for the viewing so never saw it herself. As me and Heidi sat in the office waiting for her, the text arrived announcing her absence Heidi said did I fancy a look anyway.
I suppose we're never going to agree about a lot of things, but you have now stated that you guys did arrange who I had viewings with. I never agreed to 'view' this Telemessos property, my concerns about it were that John had said previously, that end of Calis was subject to Subsidence & I think, flooding & it was (at that time) a long way from Calis with no Dolmus services. Heidi had shown me a couple of really crappy old apartments & quoted ridiculous prices for them, she never stopped boasting about how much money she was making off people! I didn't know until I joined CBF who Keith was/is as I never met him before. You & John also arranged viewings with another agency (I know where they are but don't remember the name, the name Ian rings a bell, short, well spoken, English) He showed me new builds in Hissy & a Studio apartment in a hotel there, again a total waste of time. And I met Suzan Jeffrey & Mustafa Ergur through you two, Mustafa had done various jobs for you & had recently set up the emlak business with Suzan.
The next day she went with her son viewing with Susan and Mustafa Harbour House, they offered to sell her a place for 2% commission. How many they viewed I don’t remember but that evening I got a phone call from a very excited Carolyn saying she had agreed to buy an off plan apartment and had seen the plot and plans of the apartment, If we were free the next day would we like to see the plot and then would we sit in while she signed the contract, could we read over it just to reassure her it was a normal contract. We did suggest she put in a penalty clause in case it was late, the estate agent (Suzan) agreed to £10.000. We said you will never get it but if the building project finishes late you can suggest as a goodwill gesture you will forfeit the penalty but could he pop an extra air-con unit in or something.
You & John introduced us to Suzan Jeffery, Mustafa Ergur, Erdal Doganay & Asli. You make it sound like I met them in a bar & stupidly went off to view properties with them! The only property Suzan had any involvement with for me was the apartment off-plan at Babatasi! Mustafa was (unfortunately) the first person my son met in Turkey, when you & John arranged for him to pick my son up at the airport, ditto when I arrived. My son was spending most of his time in Suzan & Mustafa's office when I arrived, helping them with the computer set-up. John & Erdal took us to 'Ergur site' where he would be building, John said that he was glad they had managed to put the plans together before I left as he felt it was a very good investment, council park opposite, so no building ever going to spoil the view of the mountains etc, etc. John & yourself also introduced us to Asli (Asli had arranged things for you like Residency papers etc) John told me to add in the penalty clause telling me how easy going Erdal was, it wouldn't be a problem as he was very honest. John had told me the main points that needed to be included in the contract before we went to Asli's office. Asli wanted us to go to the Notary (I didn't know then what that was, but you & John must have known!) John just said it would take too long & it wasn't necessary!
3.Persuasion and plotting as I knew the builder.
When we were sat in the Asla translation office, having read the contracts, all translations done Carolyn was excited and ready to sign, when fashionably last to arrive the builder walked in and both me and John did recognise him. He had done some work for Kenan a property developer from Ovacek and had been involved in building Violet apartments in Calis. These were well finished apartments that a few people on this forum will know about. We did after hand shakes explain how we knew him but how this persuaded her to sign when she was already sat there ready to sign before he walked in I don’t know.
We went to Asli's together & drew the contract up. John went with me to view the 'plot & plans', I was taken to view other projects Doganay had nearly finished to see the quality of the build & John & Erdal took me to 'choose' kit, bath etc, etc & John was going to oversee all the work & keep me updated...............
4. Receiving or keeping Carolyn’s money.
Carolyn was nervous going back to England and doing a bank transfer over to the estate agent in Turkey when not there to get a receipt. She asked us if she could transfer the money to us and we pay the deposit and estate agent by hand and get a receipt and give it to her the next time she came over. Maybe I was stupid but I agreed to this, she was a good friend and if it relieved some of her worry I was happy to do it. All went as planed, Suzan emailed her a receipt and we kept the paper one’s and we had lunch 6 months or so later where the paper receipts were handed over.
Suzan, never emailed a receipt to me for her money & when I came over in May 2005 I had to ask you & John for the receipt for the monies you paid Doganay for me. You gave it to me a few days later, it was a one liner, hand written in Turkish & signed by Doganay & Jeffery. I never received an answer from you about 'how' this money was paid to them, despite requests.
Then around 2008 Carolyn contacted us out of the blue asking us to write a letter for her lawyer confirming we had passed on her money in full as she could only find the receipt from the builder but not the one from the estate agent. I wrote the letter as asked, passing it onto her agent who in turn passed it onto Carolyn.
After this rumors started that we never gave her the receipts as we had pocketed the estate agents money. We met with the estate agent who said she had never made any claim not to have been paid her 2% commission
( about £600) in full and no estate agent would sit around for 4 years waiting to be paid without starting a legal claim for money, so it was obvious she was paid.
We never asked Carolyn to sign a receipt to say she had received the estate agents/ builders receipts, why would we? But although the estate agent and the builder supported me we were suddenly thereafter branded as money grabbing.
I've never said or insinuated you didn't pay over monies to them & they have always said that they had received them from you!, (that's about the only thing any of them ever told the truth about!) The 'letter' I asked you to write was supposed to support my claim re: my 1st payment, if it went to court, what you wrote wasn't actually helpful at all. Other discussions I'd had with John were about 'thank you's' for 'introducing' other potential buyers to the project & other', that was the 'norm' in Turkey. I was the first to buy & Doganay had another 6 to sell, the Ergur's were only supposed to have 5 apartments according to the contract made between them.
4. Covering up an attack on her son.
This is the first time Carolyn has made this claim against us. John, Carolyn and myself knew that Mustafa and Suzan the estate agents had a row back in 2004 when she was first over looking at properties. (they were a couple at the time) and that Carolyn’s son had witnessed it and it had upset him. We all knew because we were together when he got back from their office upset one evening. We stayed for a bit and then polity left as her son was upset and we thought they needed family chat time.
It was only when we met up on her next trip in 2005 that she told us that once back in UK her son had claimed Mustafa had hit/pushed him. We were surprised and John did have a go at Mustafa the next time we saw him in town but he denied it. What could we do at that point.
Now suddenly 8 year later we are accused of being involved.
This maybe the first you've heard me say anything about this on an open forum, but it is not the first time I've spoken about it. My son didn't tell me Mustafa had hit him, someone in Fethiye told me a lot later. I couldn't understand (at the time it happened) why my son wouldn't talk to Mustafa after that, hated him & didn't want to be around him at all. I was eventually told how he was kept out at a bar, whilst I had been frantic texting him & you, asking where he was (I only had a pay-as-you-go then). I was by myself in your little villa, as you & John had moved into your new house at the end of my first week there. I didn't know where my 15 year old son was, I didn't speak the language..... later in the evening after I threatened to phone the police that he was eventually sent back!, if I had been staying in a hotel the police would definitely have been called way before then! Now you're a parent, imagine how you would feel not knowing where your son was in a strange country, with people you hardly knew...
5. Back to persuasion again I’m afraid. Contract 2, (2005 ish)
Because of some land/ tapu/ god knows what reason there were delays and the building was late starting and so a second contract was needed.
Carolyn came over and we met for lunch. We chatted about the project, she was going to have a meeting with the builder and her lawyer, I don’t know who else was going to be there as we were not involved. She asked what we would do in her situation.
a) demand her deposit back plus the £10,000 in the penalty clause from the first contract
Or
b) agree a second contract.
Our opinion was you will not get £10,000 compensation from a Turkish builder without a fight and years in court. If she still wanted the apartment and her lawyer had looked fully into what the original problems were and ensured they were all sorted then personally I would go for a second contract.
As far as I know the apartment was finished this time and once it was finished new problems developed but by this time Carolyn and myself were no longer in communication. I have heard various rumours and opinions but do not know 100% what it was all about.
John did tell me he felt the apartment was still a good investment & said I should ask for extra's, including a late penalty clause, this was his best advice.
6 Walking away. (2006 ish)
I did end up walking away from our friendship, it was not something I ever planned to do but I had tried to help but at the end of the day I was just another ex pat with no power. I could ask around for info on the builder but what came back was only hearsay and gossip which I could pass on to Carolyn. If I talked to the estate agent I could only pass on what they said. To get to the bottom of any tapu/builder/estate agent problems a qualified professional is needed, someone like me can’t walk into the tapu office and make demands. So one night after an evening and night of hurtful texts telling me how useless/pathetic etc I was, I sent one text back to say I’m finished, its no longer my problem.
I’m still sorry about taking this action but I could do no more and take no more insults. I felt bad as I knew how cross, angry, frustrated Carolyn was but I really felt the situation was taking over our life.
I had been told that Doganay had 'financial' problems & asked you & John if you heard anything, you totally poo-pood it, said you'd make enquiry's & told me it was a rumour started by a then ex-employee. We fell out after a number of things happened; John told me that they "use different building materials here that take longer to dry out"! (that was the reason I was given for the first delay) It wasn't until much, much later I found out about the planning permissions fiasco & subsequent smaller size of the apartment. A while later you told me things were moving along nicely, a friend who was visiting took some photo's of 'the build' for me about that time, it hadn't moved on much at all! My second trip over in 2005 I didn't tell you I was going & made my own accomodation & transfer arrangements, I went straight to the 'build' to see for myself, I was sat there looking at it when a text arrived from you, again telling me how well it was going................ Not! well at all from where I was sat.
But even after this I never totally abandoned hope of helping Carolyn even if she didn’t know it. It was John and myself who went to Keith(scunner) and set up the first meeting between Keith and Mustafa(Harbour houses). After hassling and hassling Mustafa we managed to get him to a meeting with Keith in the hope he could get Mustafa talking and we still kept trying until we left Turkey but to no avail.
By this time I had met Keith & he did try to help, I know he talked to Mustafa but I don't remember him saying he'd actually had a meeting with Mustafa or that you & John were in anyway involved with any of this.
Despite all our difficulties toward the end of our life in Turkey (2008ish) when I saw Carolyn at the Sunday market in the distance it did hurt not to go over and chat so I did pm her on here and let her know if she ever wanted to meet up for a coffee and chat I would, we did exchange a couple of pm’s and we caught up on family news but we never met up I think we both knew it would not work, sadly no matter how good our friendship was it would never be the same.
The end
I think this addresses the main points made against us on here. Again I think a lot of what has happened over the years has been as a result of other’s interfering. I just wish Carolyn would concentrate her anger on the real perpetrator of why she has not got her tapu be it the builder or Mustafa or useless lawyers. I do hope she gets things sorted and finds some sense of closure.
With the busy life you had, major problems with Cem's birth, you would not have all the details imprinted in your head, as I still do, nearly 9 years on, difficult not to when I'm still paying a mortgage for a property I've never owned.
There are many of us who loved life in Turkey(us included) and the people in general, it felt like home but the bad, the crooked and the plain nasty elements of society invaded our life’s and turned them upside down.
Mustafa did say he had promised his father the apartment I chose (as the first buyer) would be theirs, but I thought I had a good contract & you guys didn't try to put me off when we sat at Gima with Mustafa talking to us about this......... How could he have my apartment as well? There were 12 apts in total, 7 contracted for the builder, 5 for them - Answer: steal them & because of a contract that was not notarised, that was easy for them to do do.
Ulimately the blame lays with the Ergur's & Doganay's. We trusted your advice, but you didn't help protect me or at the very least, tell me how I could have protected myself properly, as good friends & experienced purchasers in Turkey we feel, should have.
This is indeed Elaine - The End:
