Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
General Topics => The Debating Chamber => Topic started by: Rimms on August 29, 2013, 23:11:41 PM
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Thank God our MPs have voted to not get involved in direct military action against Syria. Even though I think it's dreadful how their citizens suffer, surely we can't be the policeman of the planet and we have to learn the lessons recent conflicts ?
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I think it's up to the people to decide their future. If they don't like the regime they should oust it or live with it. I would not have wanted my country to get involved and lose our soldiers to rid Iraq of Saddam, or Gadaffi from Libya.
With all the losses of British life in these places, are the countries more stable and fair since we got involved? And are we viewed as heroes on the streets of Kabul, Tripoli and Baghdad?
No, our men died achieving absolutely nothing.
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Ain't that the truth, sadly.
And where exactly is the Special Envoy - is he walking on water somewhere else.
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The special envoy is currently on a world tour
of his properties.
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Cruising around on some multi billionaires yachts seemingly !!
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If we are talking about the money grabbing dip-sh*t that is Tony Blair that is !
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Have to agree with all of the above. Feel so sorry for the ordinary people but also feel sorry for the soldiers families who have lost their love ones due to our involvement in other countries. We need to set our own home in order before trying to police the rest of the planet. Politicians, listen to the people, stay out, that is to say don't stop any support and aid we can offer but lets not have another needless lost of British life.
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My sentiments exactly Keith.
Only by a thirteen vote majority though were our boys saved from another conflict that has nothing to do with us.
It was a huge relief to hear the news last night.
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The worry is that only 7 backbenchers need to be whipped/threatened/bribed ( what ever they do to get rebels on line) for the next vote and it will be all systems go!
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Damned if we do and damned if we don't.
I too am glad our soldiers won't be asked to intervene but there needs to be a plan B. The world cannot afford to stand by and play witness to a regime that willingly uses chemical weapons on its civilians. I don't profess to know the solution but some form of action is required surely?
Consensus?
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Yes I think definately keep out of this one, let someone else step up for a change, always UK.
And we need to remind ourselves the existence of the UN. Was surprised at the small majority size though
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I agree with you totally, but the sad truth is that after suffering that dreadful chemical attack, thousands, probably tens of thousands of innocent civilians will be killed by Western or American missiles if they decide to intervene with military action. Furthermore, I've heard loads of "should we, shouldn't we" debate yet very little about the objective of such action and more importantly the end game and exit plan. If anyone thinks life for the average person in Afghanistan will improve once the troops pull out then your are deluded. The same applies to Syria, there are millions who support Assad, if he and his regime are overthrown with the help of outside forces, those people aren't going to stand around, they will form terrorist organisations, killing and bombing yet more innocents.
However difficult, the solution to this crisis must be formed, executed and implemented by the Syrian people themselves. The sad fact is that many more will die before that solution is found.
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Was surprised at the small majority size though
But I'll bet not as surprised as Cameron was that he lost the vote.
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Ha ha yes, felt so sorry for him ! ;D
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The UK Parliament's vote was reported in the lead story in today's New York Times. What it says demonstrates one of a great many problems with the proposed, but now rejected, action:
The negative vote in Britain’s Parliament was a heavy blow to Prime Minister David Cameron, who had pledged his support to Mr. Obama and called on lawmakers to endorse Britain’s involvement in a brief operation to punish the government of President Bashar al-Assad for apparently launching a deadly chemical weapons attack last week that killed hundreds.
From the American point of view the nature of the operation is quite clear - it is a punitive strike to respond to breaking international law. However, this was not what Cameron proposed yesterday. In order to claim lawfulness for the proposed action Cameron was forced to describe it as “as an exceptional measure on grounds of overwhelming humanitarian necessity.” A punishment-based intervention corresponds with a quick strike (in-and-out]: a humanitarian intervention suggests, to me, a much more open-ended commitment. Not surprisingly, and in view of previous interventions, many people were worried that we would indeed become embroiled in a much longer conflict with little prospect of any successful outcome. Of course Cameron could have said "Our humanitarian objectives can be achieved by bombing Syria" but, somehow, that doesn't sound quite right, does it?
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Suffice to say that; Conmoron got it totally wrong, as P.M. he failed to gauge correctly the mood of the country, which was reflected in the vote, by his own party. Let us take heart in the fact that the lives of many, many British Service men & women have been saved by this decision. Let America police the world.
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My worry is that by doing nothing will chemical warfare become acceptable and the "norm"?.
Assads backers have proven track records of caring little about the lives of their own people.
World leaders turned a blind eye to young Adolph. Worrying times.
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This is indeed a very difficult situation.
However, I am very happy that we aren't piling into Syria or firing (poorly) guided missiles into their towns and villages and calling the hundreds of casualties 'collateral damage'. Have you ever noticed that the majority of collateral damage is brown skinned? And when you die in a war you did not create, do you care if it was a chemical that burned your skin off or a bomb that scattered your body into infinity?
I do not understand the point of being a member of the UN and then not sticking to UN principles. It's this superiority complex the Brits and the US have. Oh and our war mongering 'reds under the bed'/ 'muslims in the caves' neurosis. And just possibly that Syria is very strategically placed on the atlas.
I suspect Cameron and Obama (what a let down you've been, man) will be throwing their political toys out of the pram right now.
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Leaving aside the special criminal for the Middle East :)
Its easy to rattle sabres by ones fireside, the bar of the Rat and Ratchet or the House of Commons.
A few years ago I stood by my son-in-law's open grave watching the faces of his young family as the Colonel took the folded flag, the medals, the Cap and the Belt from the coffin and presented them one by one to the soldier's wife and three children with the words "from a grateful nation". Kuwait, Iraq, Bosnia, he had done them all as the row of medals showed.
How many of us would support these interventions and wars if one of our Sons was going to have to go? For what? So they could then attack each other as they do?
This is a tribal conflict, and similar to the British Empire the French used divide and rule collecting the minorities of Shia, Alawite and Christian and giving them power as easier to control Syria for them. Much of the Middle East conflict is Tribal, a revolt against the oppression of majorities by Minorities supported from outside! Already Libya is in turmoil as the "tribes" attack each other. This is evolution, and could take hundreds of years. Meanwhile its like breaking up a family fight -- they will turn on you!
This is not Port Stanley, and the rules are different.
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My worry is that by doing nothing will chemical warfare become acceptable and the "norm"?.
Assads backers have proven track records of caring little about the lives of their own people.
World leaders turned a blind eye to young Adolph. Worrying times.
Very different scenario, the Tribal leaders are only interested in the main in supporting their tribes,
and making sure they dominate, rarely do they interfere outside their own Country, OK Saddam invaded Kuwait, but
he actually had some cause -- it was originally part of Iraq -- until western governments wanted a buffer at the Gulf end and found oil there! The only reason Iran gets involved is tribal again -- Shi'a moslem. Assad has never actually tried to dominate another country, his father interfered in Lebanon because of the Alawite and shia tribal issues again. Bit different to "young" Adolf -- actually he wasn't so young, he was in his forties when elected.
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I rather suspect you have a solution to the chemical weapons
issue as well John. Amazing.
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Bashar al Assad was put in charge of Syria's role in Lebanon in 1998 and installed a friend of his as President, and sidelined the existing Prime Minister. He was reputed to have instructed the assassination of key opponents of Syria's interests in Lebanon. His father had put him in charge of relations with Lebanon in order to toughen him up prior to taking up the Presidency.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Han5fgzy4KU
Interesting. An MP speaking the truth and what the public are saying!
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Yes, the MP who met another mass murderer of his own people, Saddam Hussein and greeted him with "Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability".
I wouldn't put too much effort into quoting anything Galloway says.
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I never said he was whiter than white, and I would never vote for him in any way shape or form. He is an absolute t****r in most things he does or is involved in. However, on this subject I agree whole heartedly with what he says, particularly regarding the use of the veto on the UN security council by the USA on anything that criticises Israel.
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I didn't even watch it Eric. He's great at making speeches that are designed to attempt capture the feelings of the British public. Except when talking to tyrannical despots.
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Galloway has always maintained that his remarks were directed towards the Iraqi people. There is some plausibility to that since he was there to discuss sanctions against Syria and the way Syrians suffered under these. But Galloway divides people so there will be many who reject this as BS. Labour MP Tam Dalyell said "in the mid-1980s there was only one MP that I can recollect making speeches about human rights in Iraq and this was George Galloway".
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Interesting, from the Guerilla Economist!
Why Syria? It's not what you think and it's not what you've been told.
Sun Tzu said that "All war is deception." Syria like Iraq, and Afghanistan before it, is no different. Let us look at the real reason why the globalist corporations and banking interests are fixated on this nation. A fixation that started over a decade ago. A fixation that has the potential to lead to a major global war as key world powers are now involved.
If one remembers, in the late 90's, the ruling party in Afghanistan was the Taliban. They have wrested most of the control of the nation from their Northern Alliance adversaries and were enjoying favor from Washington. Then it was discovered that this mountainous grave yard of empires can serve a purpose in running a gas, as well as an oil, pipeline dubbed the famous Caspian Pipeline. Ring a bell?
The objective of the pipeline was to run a natural gas pipeline from Turkmenistan, through Azerbaijan, through Georgia and into to Turkey on to the destined Euro-Mediterranean markets. All the while by-passing Russia and allowing at that time the European Economic Community to be free of Russian Natural Gas and Gazprom.
In Early 2000 there was a meeting between leaders of the Taliban and Assistant Secretary of State, Political Crony and Known Leaker of the Valerie Plame CIA agent scandel, Richard Armitage. Armitage gave them an offer that they could not refuse. Run a secondary pipeline through Afghanistan as well and into Pakistan, out to the Arabian Sea. All facilitated by Unocal and their now famous or infamous, depends how you look at it, employee Hamid Karzai. Unfortunately for the Taliban they refused. Armitage it was reported stated to the visiting Taliban delegation, "You can take the offer either with a carpet of Gold or a Carpet of Bombs."
Fast Forward one year and Afghanistan is invaded, the Taliban overthrown, and Unocal employee Hamid Karzai is put in power as president. The shocking thing is this, If one takes the time to look at the Afghanistan map, large US military bases are on the very path of the purposed pipeline. This as well that some of the proceeds from the lucrative opium trade will find it's way back to US banks which will launder the money in order to help fund Unocal in the purposed pipe building project. Win Win.
So what does this have to do with Syria. Syria is the final chess piece of a move to cut Russia's lucrative lock in Natural Gas and Oil that it supplies to Europe. If this connection is cut in any way it will bring severe consequences to the Russian economy as well as Russia's natural gas company, Gazprom. This is a move that the US stands to gain from.
The trouble for Syria began with two things. First the discovery of natural gas in the Mediterranean right off the coast of Syria, Lebanon and Israel. Read that list again, especially LEBANON and SYRIA, is the picture becoming clearer? This discovery took place about a decade ago, the thing is, though there already exists within the middle east a Liquid Natural Gas Producing power house. That my friends is the tiny nation of Qatar.
Now here is where you need to put your thinking caps on. Qatar is floating in LNG (Liquid Natural Gas) It has over 77 Billion Tonnes in Reserve and that is with a moratorium in place. The problem is that Qatar would love to sell it's LNG to the EU and the hot Mediterranean markets. The problem for Qatar in achieving this is their regional big brother Saudi Arabia. The Saudis have already said "NO" to an overland pipe cutting across the Land of Saud. So what is the oil rich micro mite to do? Simple cut a deal with the biggest bully in the neighborhood, you guessed it, the US.
As recently as May of this year deals have been put in place by Exxon Mobile and Qatar Petroleum International, a $10 Billion deal that allows Exxon Mobile to sell natural gas, through a port in Texas, to the UK and Mediterranean markets. So little Qatar is anxious, power hungry and dangerous, the only thing standing in the way of their aspirations is Syria.
The US plays into this in that it has vast wells of natural gas, in fact the largest known supply in the world. There is a reason why Natural Gas prices have been suppressed for so long in the US. This is to set the stage for US involvement in the Natural Gas market in Europe while smashing the monopoly that the Russians have enjoyed for so long.
Enter Nabucco signed by a handful of European nations and Turkey back in 2009. It was an agreement to run a natural gas pipeline across Turkey into Austria by-passing Russia again with Qatar in the mix as a supplier to a feeder pipeline via the proposed Arab pipeline from Libya to Egypt to Nabucco (is the picture getting clearer?). The problem with all of this is that a Russian backed Syria stands in the way.
Is it not interesting that the main cities of turmoil and conflict in Syria right now, the ones so spoken of in the news are Damascus, Homs, and Aleppo. Coincidentally folks, those happen to be the same cities that the proposed gas pipelines happen to run through. Qatar is the biggest financier of the Syrian uprising having spent over $3 billion so far in conflict. The other side of the story is that Saudi Arabia also finances anti-Assad groups in Syria. You see the Saudis do not want to be marginalized by their ambitious little brother, thus they too want to topple Assad and implant their own puppet government, one that would sign off on a pipeline deal and charge Qatar for running their pipes through to Nabucco.
Hence this is the reason why you have two somewhat opposing factions in Syria. On one side you have the Qatari backed Muslim Brotherhood and it's subsidiaries who have very close ties with the Emir of Qatar. On the other side you have the Saudi-backed Wahhabi AL-Queda and it's subsidiaries. Hence you have various levels of atrocities from the cannibalism of the Wahabis, to the Christian slaughter of the "Brotherhood". These all have Qatari and Saudi fingerprints all over them.
In the background of this den of Jackals is the chief Hyena, the US, ready to spread Love and Democracy not by war but "Kinetic Action". You see as the economy in the US crumbles, Pax Americana is in it's final death rattles, it desires to see it's age old rival Russia knocked off it's energy pedestal in the highly lucrative Euro market. It also is anxious to get a piece of the Natural Gas Pie. Folks you have to understand that Qatar and Saudi Arabia are proxy puppet states to the Anglo-American powers. The US will stand to gain immensely no matter which faction topples Assad. In fact deals have been cut since 2009. Again the problem is Russia stands in the way.
The recent Cyprus bail in was not something that was just a simple bank failures, which was inevitable but it was primarily designed to go after the wealth of the Russian Oligarchs who coincidentally have strong ties with the Russian energy sector. Lucky for them they were warned in advanced by a Cypriot banker and they were able to liquidate before they lost everything. This has not gone unnoticed by Putin. Why do you think that immediately after the Cyprus fiasco Russian warships docked there the following week. This was Putin sending a very strong message to the Western banksters that Russian interests will not be messed with.
Russia is now forced to draw the line, a very hard line in the sand. Syria is much more than losing a strategic port in the Natural Gas rich middle east. It is about losing the entire European region to Middle Eastern and Caspian Energy interests. Russia cannot allow that, this is why they are moving their military assets in place, This is also why resource hungry China cannot have it's natural gas flow interrupted as well and have sided with the Russians when it comes to Syria.
Now, if even 25% of this is true, wouldn't be a good idea for us to get involved in anything but an air exclusion exercise and even think very carefully about that?
Wanchai Ping Fung
(How many know what that is I wonder? :) )
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Bored now !!!!
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Bored now !!!!
It worked then :) :)
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The Wanchai Ping Fung was a chinky on the corner of our street.!
It's now called the Lucky Dragon Takeaway. (an' its crap).
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The Wanchai Ping Fung was a chinky on the corner of our street.!
It's now called the Lucky Dragon Takeaway. (an' its crap).
Wanchai is a district of Hong Kong, there was a barracks close to Wanchai, Victoria barracks, but taxi drivers understood Wanchai Ping Fung -- Wanchai soldier's home, easier! :)
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Interesting, from the Guerilla Economist!
Why Syria? It's not what you think and it's not what you've been told.
Sun Tzu said that "All war is deception." Syria like Iraq, and Afghanistan before it, is no different. Let us look at the real reason why the globalist corporations and banking interests are fixated on this nation. A fixation that started over a decade ago. A fixation that has the potential to lead to a major global war as key world powers are now involved.
If one remembers, in the late 90's, the ruling party in Afghanistan was the Taliban. They have wrested most of the control of the nation from their Northern Alliance adversaries and were enjoying favor from Washington. Then it was discovered that this mountainous grave yard of empires can serve a purpose in running a gas, as well as an oil, pipeline dubbed the famous Caspian Pipeline. Ring a bell?
The objective of the pipeline was to run a natural gas pipeline from Turkmenistan, through Azerbaijan, through Georgia and into to Turkey on to the destined Euro-Mediterranean markets. All the while by-passing Russia and allowing at that time the European Economic Community to be free of Russian Natural Gas and Gazprom.
In Early 2000 there was a meeting between leaders of the Taliban and Assistant Secretary of State, Political Crony and Known Leaker of the Valerie Plame CIA agent scandel, Richard Armitage. Armitage gave them an offer that they could not refuse. Run a secondary pipeline through Afghanistan as well and into Pakistan, out to the Arabian Sea. All facilitated by Unocal and their now famous or infamous, depends how you look at it, employee Hamid Karzai. Unfortunately for the Taliban they refused. Armitage it was reported stated to the visiting Taliban delegation, "You can take the offer either with a carpet of Gold or a Carpet of Bombs."
Fast Forward one year and Afghanistan is invaded, the Taliban overthrown, and Unocal employee Hamid Karzai is put in power as president. The shocking thing is this, If one takes the time to look at the Afghanistan map, large US military bases are on the very path of the purposed pipeline. This as well that some of the proceeds from the lucrative opium trade will find it's way back to US banks which will launder the money in order to help fund Unocal in the purposed pipe building project. Win Win.
So what does this have to do with Syria. Syria is the final chess piece of a move to cut Russia's lucrative lock in Natural Gas and Oil that it supplies to Europe. If this connection is cut in any way it will bring severe consequences to the Russian economy as well as Russia's natural gas company, Gazprom. This is a move that the US stands to gain from.
The trouble for Syria began with two things. First the discovery of natural gas in the Mediterranean right off the coast of Syria, Lebanon and Israel. Read that list again, especially LEBANON and SYRIA, is the picture becoming clearer? This discovery took place about a decade ago, the thing is, though there already exists within the middle east a Liquid Natural Gas Producing power house. That my friends is the tiny nation of Qatar.
Now here is where you need to put your thinking caps on. Qatar is floating in LNG (Liquid Natural Gas) It has over 77 Billion Tonnes in Reserve and that is with a moratorium in place. The problem is that Qatar would love to sell it's LNG to the EU and the hot Mediterranean markets. The problem for Qatar in achieving this is their regional big brother Saudi Arabia. The Saudis have already said "NO" to an overland pipe cutting across the Land of Saud. So what is the oil rich micro mite to do? Simple cut a deal with the biggest bully in the neighborhood, you guessed it, the US.
As recently as May of this year deals have been put in place by Exxon Mobile and Qatar Petroleum International, a $10 Billion deal that allows Exxon Mobile to sell natural gas, through a port in Texas, to the UK and Mediterranean markets. So little Qatar is anxious, power hungry and dangerous, the only thing standing in the way of their aspirations is Syria.
The US plays into this in that it has vast wells of natural gas, in fact the largest known supply in the world. There is a reason why Natural Gas prices have been suppressed for so long in the US. This is to set the stage for US involvement in the Natural Gas market in Europe while smashing the monopoly that the Russians have enjoyed for so long.
Enter Nabucco signed by a handful of European nations and Turkey back in 2009. It was an agreement to run a natural gas pipeline across Turkey into Austria by-passing Russia again with Qatar in the mix as a supplier to a feeder pipeline via the proposed Arab pipeline from Libya to Egypt to Nabucco (is the picture getting clearer?). The problem with all of this is that a Russian backed Syria stands in the way.
Is it not interesting that the main cities of turmoil and conflict in Syria right now, the ones so spoken of in the news are Damascus, Homs, and Aleppo. Coincidentally folks, those happen to be the same cities that the proposed gas pipelines happen to run through. Qatar is the biggest financier of the Syrian uprising having spent over $3 billion so far in conflict. The other side of the story is that Saudi Arabia also finances anti-Assad groups in Syria. You see the Saudis do not want to be marginalized by their ambitious little brother, thus they too want to topple Assad and implant their own puppet government, one that would sign off on a pipeline deal and charge Qatar for running their pipes through to Nabucco.
Hence this is the reason why you have two somewhat opposing factions in Syria. On one side you have the Qatari backed Muslim Brotherhood and it's subsidiaries who have very close ties with the Emir of Qatar. On the other side you have the Saudi-backed Wahhabi AL-Queda and it's subsidiaries. Hence you have various levels of atrocities from the cannibalism of the Wahabis, to the Christian slaughter of the "Brotherhood". These all have Qatari and Saudi fingerprints all over them.
In the background of this den of Jackals is the chief Hyena, the US, ready to spread Love and Democracy not by war but "Kinetic Action". You see as the economy in the US crumbles, Pax Americana is in it's final death rattles, it desires to see it's age old rival Russia knocked off it's energy pedestal in the highly lucrative Euro market. It also is anxious to get a piece of the Natural Gas Pie. Folks you have to understand that Qatar and Saudi Arabia are proxy puppet states to the Anglo-American powers. The US will stand to gain immensely no matter which faction topples Assad. In fact deals have been cut since 2009. Again the problem is Russia stands in the way.
The recent Cyprus bail in was not something that was just a simple bank failures, which was inevitable but it was primarily designed to go after the wealth of the Russian Oligarchs who coincidentally have strong ties with the Russian energy sector. Lucky for them they were warned in advanced by a Cypriot banker and they were able to liquidate before they lost everything. This has not gone unnoticed by Putin. Why do you think that immediately after the Cyprus fiasco Russian warships docked there the following week. This was Putin sending a very strong message to the Western banksters that Russian interests will not be messed with.
Russia is now forced to draw the line, a very hard line in the sand. Syria is much more than losing a strategic port in the Natural Gas rich middle east. It is about losing the entire European region to Middle Eastern and Caspian Energy interests. Russia cannot allow that, this is why they are moving their military assets in place, This is also why resource hungry China cannot have it's natural gas flow interrupted as well and have sided with the Russians when it comes to Syria.
Now, if even 25% of this is true, wouldn't be a good idea for us to get involved in anything but an air exclusion exercise and even think very carefully about that?
Wanchai Ping Fung
(How many know what that is I wonder? :) )
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Thanks John very interesting and not at all bored :)