Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
General Topics => The Debating Chamber => Topic started by: Highlander on July 08, 2017, 21:24:27 PM
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Is the harrowing case of Charlie Gard just too difficult to discuss ?
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What's difficult about it ? It's all over the media.
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It's all over the media
But not on here to date which was why I asked the question.
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Not really. Its a sad case and my view is the parents should be allowed to try and save him unless it can be proven that he would suffer by doing so.
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It's all over the media
But not on here to date which was why I asked the question.
So, discuss.
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Is the harrowing case of Charlie Gard just too difficult to discuss ?
It's a discussion forum, as long as the topic is not against the site rules then there is no reason why not. It's up to members to choose whether want to participate in the discussion.
JF
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Terrible sad case but if Charlie is suffering then I think he should be allowed to die, at home if that's what the parent's want.
Nothing to do with Trump or the Pope in my opinion.
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Watching this morning, Charlie is said to be brain damaged, cannot move, cannot see or hear and cannot swallow he also cannot breathe on this own.
I know the parents want him to live. I suppose we would be the same.
However, I think he needs some quality in his life and he has been kept alive for 11 months now.
There is no way we can judge we can only wish Charlie's parents make the right decision for them but more importantly for Charlie... :-[
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Court case tommorow, Ormond street asking for a review of decision. New evidence suggests he can have a better quality of life than originally thought, thanks to the chemist and other people who study this disease and have all signed a letter stating so. #charliesarmy x If the Pope and the President hadn't stepped in they would have been arranging their sons funeral this week. The power of social media at its best,however, is this what you have to do to stop people in authority from killing your kids??? If it was my child I would fight for every breath they could take. Please God they get their chance, this treatment and a Happy Ending. God Bless the little man x
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But the question is, is it prolonging his life or prolonging his pain. Poor little baby.
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I fully realise that this will not go down well but I will ask the question anyway. I honestly believe that lots of people think the same
Would people allow an animal to suffer in the way that Charlie is reported to be doing.
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But the question is, is it prolonging his life or prolonging his pain. Poor little baby.
Exactly lotty.
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But the question is, is it prolonging his life or prolonging his pain. Poor little baby.
Ooops - sorry duplicate :-[ :-[ :-[
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OH MY GOD....charlie is a CHILD, someones flesh and blood and a much loved son....not an animal, or last seasons clothing to be cast aside. He deserves a chance of life. As his mother states, if he was in pain, if he was suffering then she wouldn't want him to suffer and continue..but Charlie is fighting to stay and if Charlie is fighting, then they are fighting. There are photos of a child like charlie that received the treatment that charlie needs and there are pictures of them riding a bike and having a quality of life that no one expected. Why shouldn't Charlie have the opportunity to at least try the treatment?? His parents have said that if he doesn't respond to that treatment then they will let him go. While there is a chance, why shouldn't they fight for it. NAH..you cant be killing your kids because they dont fit into other peoples perceptions of 'normal' For those of us that have lost kids or have kids with incurable diseases, what wouldn't you give for another day with them or keep them here if there was even a small chance of responding to treatment. The other thing is, like the Gards lawyer said, should the same judge who gave Charlie the first death sentence be in charge of deciding if this treatment can go ahead, that doesnt see right..Also remember Aysha King..his parents arrested for taking him out the hospital that gave him a death sentence..now living a normal life, cancer free and back at school and the photo beam therapy that the hospital were so against is now available in the uk.. #CharliesArmy..thoughts and prayers with them all. God Bless little man x
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Bernie - I did hesitate about my last post for fear of the very reaction you made. Of course I know Charlie is a child and not an animal.
Before going further I sincerely do not want this thread to develop into an acrimonious argument. Charlie's plight is not worthy of that. I am expressing a heartfelt personal opinion which I believe others share but may not choose to voice. Something that I respect.
There are photos of a child like charlie that received the treatment that charlie needs and there are pictures of them riding a bike and having a quality of life that no one expected.
As I understand it (and I am happy to be corrected if wrong), the cases sited are different in that Charlie's condition is far worse and more complicated.
For those of us that have lost kids
Been there and very wanted the t-shirt :( :( :(
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I would fight tooth and nail if he was mine. Charlie should be given any possible treatment he can get from wherever IMHO
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Today Charlie's dad shouted at the Barrister for the hospital when will you stop lying..they had said that he can't open his eyes,can't see,doesn't respond..except he does open his eyes, appears to respond to kids stuff on an I pad..His mom posted a picture of Charlie with his eyes open...she put next to it a picture paints a thousand words..If this baby has a chance,however small,shouldn't he be given it, rather than have his life support taken away. Unbelievable to think they won't even try, this child has 10% chance now been given 48 hours to produce drastically New evidence..this judge should never have been allowed to deal with this a second time around.
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I would fight to keep my child alive, but ONLY if I knew he was going to have quality of life.
Haven't they said he is brain damaged? I wouldn't inflict that on my worst enemy.
Poor parents, poor Charlie :(
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So rusty, would you then agree to turn the life support off?
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Yes - I would.
That sounds so harsh, but I think you have to think about the life the child would lead, being brain damaged, blind, deaf etc
Is it kind to allow that to happen?
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I respect your honesty rusty, I personally just couldn't do it
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It is a heartbreaking situation for all concerned :(
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rusty - I would have clicked the Like thingie on all your posts.
But there is nothing "to like" in this.
So suffice to say, sadly, that I agree with them.
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I don't get it..I don't get people's view on turning off his life support without at least giving him a chance to try new treatment..So ok..God Forbid this should ever happen..Say if your much loved grandchild took a tumble at nursery and you were told they were brain damaged, you should remove your grandbabies life support, just let them go. Then you were told if you nipped over to France there was some pioneering treatment that is proving successful and if your grandbaby could have it there is a 20% chance of it succeeding..They might not come out of it 'complete' maybe deaf,sight loss,but able to function..What would YOU do then..Think for a minute and change Charlie's face for your grandchild s face, change his parents for your son and daughter faces..What now..Are you letting your grandbaby go without a chance or are you fighting to give them the only chance or letting them die without even trying it..I know what I would be doing #Charliesarmy.Thoughts and prayers with them all..God Bless lil fella x
This isn't meant to anyone in particular but all of us looking at Charlie's case.
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Nobody really knows what they'd do if they saw a burning building and there were people trapped inside.
Nobody really knows what they'd do if they saw a person drowning.
Nobody really knows what they'd do if they were in the same situation as the Gards.
We all know what we think we would do.
Let's hope none of us are unfortunate enough to be tested.
:)
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Spot on KKOB. No one is in a position to judge Charlie's parents unless they have been there themselves.
Having 4 little grandsons of my own I have, like Bernie suggests thought what I'd do if this was one of them and my gut reaction is that I would fight tooth and nail to keep him and give him every chance of life. However if that would mean him being left severely disabled and with little quality of life, I don't know whether I would feel the same and I pray I never have to decide.
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Absolutely on the nail KKOB. I haven't commented in this thread as I don't honestly know how I would react if I was in this impossible position. I just hope and pray that I never will be.
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Which is why I asked the original question sadler.
It's just impossibly sad. :( :( :(
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Highlander. Yes, I have to say that it so impossibly sad that I can't even start to have an opinion on it. :'( :'( :'(
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http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/449534/charlie-gard-lawyers-ideological-conflict-interest
Did they think it wouldn't come to light flipping disgrace #charliesarmy God Bless Lil Fella ????
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40691478
The most disgusting thing I have heard in a very, very long time.
Who are these people. Let them crawl out from whatever stone they are under and let us see their faces.
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They're just sad Keyboard Warriors who spend most of their time typing with 1 hand.
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Unreal.
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Disgusting, there are some very sick people out there unfortunately >:(
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It's the fact that they make their threats anonymously that upsets me the most.
Cowardly bar stewards in my opinion.
God forbid that they ever need Great Ormond Street's world acclaimed services.
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Yes, fully agree with that Highlander.
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Statement by Chris Gard..Charlie's Dad..like they haven't got enough to put up with..
Charlie's army
I would just like to say that Alasdair Seaton-Marsden is NOT our spokesperson.
Despite repeated requests, he has continually expressed views and put out statements on our behalf (including one just a few minutes ago) which we have NOT consented to and do not agree with. He is not helping us and he is certainly not helping Charlie. All he has done is tarnish the reputation of two parents who have been trying to save their son and we are getting a stream of abusive messages because of it.
With regards to parents being harassed in the hospital, this was Alasdair getting other distressed parents to try and sign a petition which we were unaware of and would not of agreed with had we been aware. We have tried very hard not to involve other parents in our fight for Charlie as we know what a devastating place this can be for upset and anxious parents and they have enough on their plate without hearing about our problems too.
With all the stress we are under, the last thing we need is this man putting out quotes on our behalf which we do not and have not expressed.
We have always acted in Charlie's best interests and we have never slated gosh publicly, in fact we have been grateful to the staff for their care despite some conflicting issues.
All the quotes you read in the media criticising gosh, have come from him, not us.
R
I just want to make that clear.
Further to my recent post, I would just like to clarify a couple of things.
It was agreed that Alasdair would read a statement on our behalf outside The Royal Courts of Justice, as I'm sure you can appreciate, after a very gruelling day in court, it is very difficult to then go and speak to the awaiting press. The statement he read out was run by us first and it was agreed that he would read it on our behalf. We were grateful and also happy with this.
Since then he has obviously got a bit carried away with himself and repeatedly appeared on various tv shows and done radio interviews without our consent and has continually come out with quotes which we would not and have not said.
Please only believe quotes that are from us or our actual spokesperson Alison Smith-Squire.
Thank you.
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Here we go..the final court case starts at 12.30pm. Our thoughts and prayers with Connie,Chris,Charlie and everyone involved in having to make decisions today.
God Bless lil man # Charlie's Army
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The Gards have just stopped their campaign.
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In a statement, GOSH said "the agony, desolation and bravery" of the parents' decision "command GOSH's utmost respect and humble all who work there"
Not much more to be said really other than to wonder what the American doctor's intervention was all about. >:(
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A desperately sad situation for everyone concerned. I hope Charlie's parents are left alone to grieve and all the staff at GOSH can continue with the wonderful work they do every day, without the abuse they have had to endure from people who think they know better. :'(
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Sorry I'm crying too much to get it in right order
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The truth is if Charlie Gard would have been allowed treatment in January he wouldn't be going with the angels today..He WASNT brain damaged then he ISNT brain damaged now..He has muscle depletion..Fly High Little Man you and your parents fought so hard#heartbroken#sleeptight x #charliesarmy
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Quote:
"I remind myself, and others listening to this judgment, that the nucleoside therapy for which the parents had been contending has not even been tried on mice with the same strain of mitochondrial disease from which Charlie suffers, let alone humans"
Just saying......
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Thank God they are letting him go . I know it is sad and they were grasping at straws but hat was what they were doing.God rest his little soul
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Watched Lord Winston talking about Charlie Guard yesterday. He said most babies born with this problem are let go at 2 - 3 months. Charlie was born brain damaged with no hearing and no sight. He had a tube down his windpipe so he could breathe and another down his throat to feed him. He said he was also on daily morphine. He went on to say that no treatment would have helped him and the Americans did not have anything new that the British had. He also said Charlie may not have survived a trip to the States. I know nothing, I am not a Doctor but this brilliant Professor, would not be saying this is it was not true.
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The more I read about the American Professor, the more annoyed I get.
"In a statement to the High Court, GOSH said it was "increasingly surprised and disappointed" Professor Michio Hirano "had not read Charlie's contemporaneous medical records or viewed Charlie's brain imaging or read all of the second opinions about Charlie's condition".
The hospital said Professor Hirano had not taken the opportunity to see Charlie until last week, despite being offered the chance to do so by the hospital in January.
Even though the professor gave written evidence at all the court cases, the hospital said it only emerged last week that he had not read the judge's ruling following the first High Court hearing in April.
The hospital added it was concerned to hear the professor state in the witness box at the High Court hearing on 13 July that he had a financial interest in some of the treatment he proposed prescribing for Charlie."
:( :( :(
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A Snake Oil Salesman sprang to mind when he was first mentioned.
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Question is are they going to allow the family to take him to die ....so sad.... for those of us who have been there know the anguish and trauma that never fades.
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'Great Ormond Street said his ventilator won't fit through the front door of the Gard's house or up the stairs and moving him could risk him suffering pain or a 'distressing or disordered death'.
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I feel they should really just let him go gently now, Hospices are wonderful and sensitive places, they will be allowed as much privacy as they like. He's been through enough. I feel they are prolonging their dispute with medical advice when the end is clearly in sight. Bless this poor baby.
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I feel they should really just let him go gently now, Hospices are wonderful and sensitive places, they will be allowed as much privacy as they like. He's been through enough. I feel they are prolonging their dispute with medical advice when the end is clearly in sight. Bless this poor baby.
Totally agree with you Lotty time to let go
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Charlie is dying Monday..wherever that might be. As gosh have never been to or seen their home, it's amazing that they have decided the equipment won't fit through the door.
The judge will decide on Wednesday where Charlie Gard will die.
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Bernie - because this is such a desperately sad story I honestly did hesitate to ask this but have you seen the house.
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Sadly I think this is now about the parents hatred for the Hospital that has spent months trying to do their best for the tot.
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Sadly that might be the case kevin3. :(
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No just a member of Charlie's Army. That has updates from Chris and Connie.
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The difficulties of Charlie going home are far more complex than just getting the equipment into his home, as was detailed in GOSH's statement to the court.
:( :( :(
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Yes, there is a worldwide search for a pediatric specialist to come help. There have been some responses. You asked had I seen the house, but I don't need to have done,but surely the people using it as an argument in court should have done. I'm aware I have got far too emotionally involved in this case,suppose due to my own situation. The actualities and the media coverage are so far apart I don't think any of us will know the full extent of whats gone on until long after Charlie's gone.
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Getting the baby back to the house with all his equipment and then switching it off may not be the best thing for the baby. He will have no idea where he is and it would be nice to leave him with his parents in peace rather than try and move him and possibly cause him distress.
Someone close to me lost a baby that had no chance of living so I know the pain. I also know what happened to the baby was the best thing for him and for the parents.
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But it's not just the equipment. GOSH cannot provide the specialist IT nurse that needs to look after Charlie nor the IT Doctor to be on call should Charlie need him.
GOSH'S statement to the Court spells out the difficulties in detail.
:( :( :(
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The average domestic doorway is 30 to 33 inches wide. The exception would be a property converted for Disabled living. The
other problem is the parents want him to die upstairs in his bedroom and want to keep him alive for a few days there.The
Hospital, knowing the size and weight of the equipment would not need to visit to know if it was possible. All my sympathy
and prayers are with Charlie. God Bless him. :'(
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And still the wrangling goes on...... :( :( :(
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Tomorrow it stops...well this part of it
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Bernie - I sincerely hope it stops completely tomorrow. (Not sure what you meant by "this part of it" ?
The judge has said that the name of the hospice and when Charlie was admitted would remain private and that surely is only right and proper.
Lets hope the press respect that.
:( :( :(
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Agree entirely Highlander. Surely the parents now just want to spend their last few days with Charlie in private and let him go to sleep peacefully. It can't help anyone, least of all Charlie to keep dragging this through the media circus.
God bless you Charlie x x
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And with all the furore regarding Charlie let's acknowledge the quiet dignity and courage of the parents of Saffrie Roussos who buried their daughter today.
(https://s4.postimg.org/4n8z98o7d/Saffie-_Roussos-funeral.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/4n8z98o7d/)
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What a tragic loss. RIP.
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What a tragic loss. RIP.
8 years old :( :( :( - I can't bear to watch videos of this lovely young girl. Unbearably sad. :( :( :(
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“As you leave the cathedral today, try and be a little bit more like Saffie: ambitious, good-humoured, loving and passionate. The world will truly be a better place.”
Lovely words in Saffies memory, such a beautiful girl that should be here with her family still. God Bless x
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I know the decision has been made, but this is 'My take' on the situation.(as a former health professional)
There is a saying 'Where there is life, there is hope' However, IMHO quality of life should outweigh Quantity of life. I think that the Gards should have thought more about their childs situation, and not about how they feel. I personally would not have put my child through 'A three-ringed circus'. Where is the dignity in that?
Sorry if this has offended anyone, but this little boy is a human being and not 'an exhibit in a side show',
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By the way I had to make the decision to let a member of my family die after they had been in my life for over 14 years. It was the hardest decision I have EVER had to make, but I had to do what was right for them.
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The Judge said to the parents "Your time should be spent with your child, not your Lawyers." Wise words.
I think this will rumble on long after poor Charlie has left us.
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I think that the Gards should have thought more about their childs situation, and not about how they feel. I personally would not have put my child through 'A three-ringed circus'. Where is the dignity in that?
Sorry if this has offended anyone, but this little boy is a human being and not 'an exhibit in a side show',
Didn't offend me in the slightest mary62.
I think many people feel the same way but didn't say so because 1. out of respect for Charlie and 2. for fear of being labelled heartless.
:( :( :(
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I think that the Gards should have thought more about their childs situation, and not about how they feel. I personally would not have put my child through 'A three-ringed circus'. Where is the dignity in that?
Sorry if this has offended anyone, but this little boy is a human being and not 'an exhibit in a side show',
Didn't offend me in the slightest mary62.
I think many people feel the same way but didn't say so because 1. out of respect for Charlie and 2. for fear of being labelled heartless.
:( :( :(
I do have respect for Charlie, but not for the parents who have allowed this dreadful debacle to take place.
I have been told that I am only capable of seeing in black and white, but not grey areas, but to be honest I just believe in saying it as it is.
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I agree totally with you Mary.. I am beginning to lose all sympathy with the parents now.. The cut off for them to make a decision was lunchtime. It is now 4 hours past that.. I really think that they are trying to drag it out until his first birthday in just under two weeks...I cannot imagine being in this terrible situation but Barrie and I have discussed it at length and think that we would have let him go by now...
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I sincerely hope that the proceeds of any book which might appear in the future goes completely to medical research into the terrible disease that Charlie has been struck down by and not anywhere else.
:( :( :(
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I sincerely hope that the proceeds of any book which might appear in the future goes completely to medical research into the terrible disease that Charlie has been struck down by and not anywhere else.
:( :( :(
Ahhh yes....The money. Just what is going to happen to all the cash raised (from decent, hard working people) for his treatment? Will GOSH get it? I may be cynical but I think not.
My feelings are that the Gards have used (for want of a different phrase) their little boy to get the general public's attention and publicity for themselves, and have actually been attention seeking for their own devices.
AGAIN apologies if this offends anyone but this is the way I see it.
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I agree totally with you Mary.. I am beginning to lose all sympathy with the parents now.. The cut off for them to make a decision was lunchtime. It is now 4 hours past that.. I really think that they are trying to drag it out until his first birthday in just under two weeks...I cannot imagine being in this terrible situation but Barrie and I have discussed it at length and think that we would have let him go by now...
As would I have. Shameless people.
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WOW mary62 - you certainly don't hold back.
I would honestly hope that your feelings regarding Chris and Connie are incorrect but I am not 100% certain they are.
We will see in the days, months and years to come.
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I do wonder how many other parents have tragically found themselves in a similar horrendous situation as the Gards and have dealt with it as best they could with quiet dignity and without the glare of intrusive media attention.
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They are setting up a Charlie Gard foundation to help children with the same condition as him.. I personally think that GOSH should get a donation from it but that will never happen.
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Well that's encouraging and very well done them. :)
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I personally think that GOSH should get a donation from it but that will never happen.
I have been hugely impressed by GOSH throughout this matter. They have conducted themselves (under the severest of scrutiny), totally professionally and with quiet dignity throughout and for that deserve nothing but the utmost credit.
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RIP. Little Charlie.. Whether the parents were right or wrong to drag it all out they will hopefully look back and think that what they did was right for them It is all irrelevant now... GOSH have done no wrong in my eyes.. Such a shame and so terribly sad.
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RIP little man. Fly high with the angels tonight :'(
Let's hope everyone at GOSH are now left to get on with the wonderful work they do every day.
Desperately sad situation all round.
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At peace now. God bless.
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I know that Bernie Teyze has started another thread in tribute to Charlie.
But I have just watched footage of members of "Charlie's Army" chanting "Shame on GOSH".
I simply cannot let that go without registering my disgust.
God forbid that these people ever need the services of the world renowned facility that is GOSH.
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Absolutely! >:(
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I put it on another thread as I didn't think it was appropriate to add it to what was been said on this thread. Thought it better to show a bit of decorum and respect to an 11 month old baby that had died, and hoped the vitriol could wait a while for us all to pay our respects.
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Which is precisely why I posted my comments in this thread.
I have absolutely no desire to get into an argument over such a tragic case but I am entitled to an opinion and that is that GOSH did what they do every day, and that is put the interests of their patient first and foremost.
I find the fact that doctors and nurses were subjected to abuse and even death threats absolutely disgusting and I find people shouting abuse at them equally disgusting.
These doctors and nurses always have to remain anonymous and therefore couldn’t answer back.
How must they feel having done their very best for Charlie every day for 11 months to have that level of abuse hurled at them. That is vitriolic behaviour.
I am 100% sure that many of them will be simple heart broken.
:) :) :)
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Thought it better to show a bit of decorum and respect to an 11 month old baby that had died, and hoped the vitriol could wait a while for us all to pay our respects.
[/quote]
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I haven't seen any vitriol on this thread so far: why should it start now?
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Yes Bernie, I see the point you are trying to make, but it's a pity that the section of 'Charlie's army' who have been chanting, verbally abusing and threatening the staff at GOSH didn't feel the same. What point are they trying to make now? Apart from the staff at GOSH who, as Highlander quite rightly says, would have have been heartbroken over these sad events, what about all the other very sick babies and children, and their families, who are being treated there. What effect will this have had on them who are also going through very difficult times.
The abuse of these doctors and nurses is inexcusable!
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I DONT condone any of the abuse either aimed at the family or the hospital. I just didnt think it was appropriate for people to be making unkind comments about the family when the baby wasnt even cold. I dont think the comments towards the family have been fair or true. I think in time, when the truth comes out, people will have time to reflect on their comments and opinions and think differently..or maybe not. Although I was in support of the Gard family, My involvement with Charlie Gard is limited to pressing a request to join Charlie Army support button on facebook. From there I have read and seen different articles from the family, that differ greatly from the ones in the media. On the facebook site, Charlies Army, there has never been anything but praise for the doctors and nurses and all the work they do and difficult decisions that they make. How they work tirelessly for very little reward. However, the view towards hospital management has been somewhat different.. The nurses that looked after Charlie offered to be with him in his final hours alongside the family, but hospital management wouldnt allow it. The family have never, that I Have seen, done anything but praise the care they received whilst there. There are a lot of things said in the media, saying Charlie was brain damaged etc, that werent true, according to the family. I have read lots of unkind words and implications that greatly sadden me. At the end of the day, they were just a young couple fighting for any chance for their only child, who has now sadly passed away, some say needlessly..time will tell.
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Charlie Gard story is being covered by sky news at 3.30pm and again later in the evening.
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Says everything you need to know in my opinion
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/commentisfree/2017/aug/04/it-was-our-agonising-job-as-charlie-gard-care-team-to-say-enough
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Today is Charlie's first birthday and his funeral..speaks volumes.
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Sorry Bernie,and with the greatest respect to Charlie, but "speaks volumes" to what
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Please believe that this is a serious question because I cannot find the answer on the internet:
Has the poor wee fella's funeral been held. :(
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Wel, in my ignorance, I thought it was held on his birthday, but I have no evidence to back it up.
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I believe you are right sadler, it was held on his birthday.