Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
Property For Sale in Calis Beach & Turkey => Moving To Turkey => Topic started by: Rindaloo on November 17, 2011, 20:26:41 PM
-
Since we've moved to Turkey, we have been made aware of so many property scams. Builders, Emlaks and Solicitors that have duped people into handing over cash for a property that will never be theirs. There is a petition online PLEASE sign it http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/protectionforbuyers/
-
I worked for two years on a system that wholly prevented people handing over cash for a property that "would never be theirs" and still lose customers who go for the same house with a different agent because they got them a washing machine thrown in. Good luck with the petition, but I won't be signing it.
-
According to the links to TLF, this petition was started in 2009. When is it due to be presented?
-
quote:
Originally posted by Scunner
I worked for two years on a system that wholly prevented people handing over cash for a property that "would never be theirs" and still lose customers who go for the same house with a different agent because they got them a washing machine thrown in. Good luck with the petition, but I won't be signing it.
It's amazing how fickle people can be, but I am sure many people gravitated to you to benefit from your safe purchasing system. But the fact that some wanted a free washing machine doesn't negate the value of this petition. Surely anything that raises awareness of the scams, benefits all in some way. By publicising the fact that there ARE scams, it warns people to be cautious, might send some prospective in your direction and might help shame the Government into doing something about the crazy system here.
BTW, it isn't MY petition, I am merely helping to spread awareness of it.
-
quote:
Originally posted by Eric
According to the links to TLF, this petition was started in 2009. When is it due to be presented?
There's no set date. Since it has been better publicised, the signatures are going up. I have been told it might be submitted before end of this year.
-
I know it isn't yours - if it was yours I'd sign it ;)
I agree that it might increase awareness and perhaps even cause a change in regulations - but to be absolutely clear, I do not believe there is much in the way of scams. Idiots yes, scams, probably not as many as anyone thinks. The scams are isolated cases we've all heard of - often involving a barman, waiter or other person outside the industry who promises to get a better price and the customer ends up paying a higher price or in some cases the ultimate price - losing the lot.
There are few people more disillusioned with the property market in Turkey than me - not because it is slow but because it is rife with scandal and tales of dishonest people and there is not much kudos in being an estate agent in Turkey these days. Towards the end of my time living there I used to dread being asked what I did, and could feel the life draining out of me as I replied. So I will tell you what I really think.
There are very few "scams". Very few indeed. What we have is the coming together of two fairly inert things that become explosive when brought together - idiot customers and idiot builders/idiot others in and around the property industry in Turkey. I met so many people in the property game out there who have no obvious business skills at all - they called themselves business people but they were actually people who had a business. "Right place right time" types. Agents, builders, Brits, Turks - and this is the problem now. Builders got so deep in debt building, selling, building, selling, building...oh **** nobody's buying. Imagine this situation:
You can't pay the bank and unless you find £40,000 by Friday, you're finished. Do you (a) Lose everything or (b) borrow £40,000 to pay the bank secured on that tapu you haven't signed over yet? It isn't right but that IS WHAT IS HAPPENING. Not scams, self preservation. It stinks, I deplore it but it would be worthwhile writing all this if 1 person gets to understand that the problem isn't scams, the problem is builders getting in too deep and using something that is technically still theirs to save themselves from the banks.
In the courts the banks get awarded the property - people shout that this is a scam at the highest level - IT IS NOT! The bank lent on the basis that a property was security and what else can the courts do than award the property to the bank - it was the security offered up!
Sadly the other side is customers - we all expose ourself to risk and I am no different - sometimes you have to put your faith in someone you don't know very well and I have done that and I have been the person that people have trusted many times. The trick is going for a calculated risk and I do not believe many people affected do - as I said, from no risk to total exposure to potentially losing £90,000 for a free washing machine is total madness, and not because I lost out - it is the actions of an imbecile. I have also noted that customers have followed two trends between 2003 and today:
1. Customers in recent times are generally focused on getting a deal and lose complete sight of risk - for example they are much happier to send the whole amount if the builder gives in to their impressive tough negotiating (in their own opinion, nobody else's) demand for a £5,000 discount and free curtains.
2. As time went on I found slowly but surely you can't tell many customers anything. In the early days people came with a crazy dream and you talked them through it and eventually steered some keys and a tapu into their hands. These days quite often they turn up and they know it all, more than you in fact. I suspect the ones that think they know the most are often the ones who end up with nothing. Because they aren't prepared to listen to anyone apart from the expert - themselves.
Pick the bones out of that lot!
-
I need a drink....
-
.... and Keith knows a really nice waiter....
-
Superb expert insider knowledge from Keith, let's hope anyone considering buying a property in Turkey reads this 1 post. I know for a fact that if I was in the market to buy who I'd use as my agent!
-
Ditto
-
I long for the days of the customers with a crazy dream Mark - taking people from the vague idea that a property near the sea in Turkey would be brilliant if there was only someone who could make it happen, to dropping a set of keys into their hand was probably the best job I ever had. It's just not anything like that anymore for the reasons stated above. I don't see myself as an estate agent these days, thank God, when it comes to real estate I just see myself as a guy with a different way to buy property. I could tell many stories with a whiff of what you kindly describe as "superb expert insider knowledge" but to be honest, while people insist on buying then research rather than research then buying, it's a total waste of my time.
-
We started to look for property in 2002/3 and in that time the internet was still relatively new in the everyday homes. but the search was on for our property, there was no Calis Beach Forum, but somehow along the line I got in contact with a chap named Keith Campbell, he had a small website of properties and I chose a few and emailed off my questions. He was totally honest and told the story of each property, warts'n'all. unfortunately for me when we got to Turkey the internet was not as reliable as it is now, and emails and email addresses were not easily transferable, and I lost contact with this chap, who at the time was working out of the UK. Luckily we did mange OK and purchased, safely.
How times have now changed, many Turkish agents jumped on the estate band wagon, some good and some not so good. With so much info readily available to everyone there is little excuse not to research questions. Keith has gone to the trouble to safeguard buyers, yet still they opt like he says for the washing machine.
-
Keith I was really impressed with your summary of the situation.I was one of the lucky and to be fair there are many of us that have been lucky. Those that have suffered losses are , thankfully, a small minority.
I think those of us who have been going to Turkey for a while have seen the situation where prospective buyers have been taken in by the perceived innocence of the Turkish. They prefer to take advice from a waiter than from someone like you and then they wonder why the whole thing went wrong. When we first started looking for property in Turkey the first piece of advice we were given is that every waiter or bar person is an estate agent and take what they say to you with a pinch of salt.
I cannot explain why we would take such a large risk with our hard earned cash. We would not do it in the UK.Everything that we do in purchasing property in Turkey goes against our basic instincts. In the UK we would not buy a house without a qualified solicitor. In Turkey we will allow the estate agent to do the conveyancing for both parties, we would run a mile in the UK.We give POAs to people we have just metto do whatever they like with the money.When we signed athe contract for the purchase of our property one of our legal advisors at work read the contract and he thought I should be locked up.
Keith, I wish more people would carefully read what you have just written. It is not rocket science it is basic common sense and that is something we seem to lack when we hit the sunshine.
-
Well Gerry that is one of the main points I am trying to get through - that anyone who bought in Turkey in those "boom years" took a risk - you say you did, I am totally honest and I took huge risks too - and where did we get it right and the people who lost the lot get it wrong? Generally I would agree and say we got lucky and they didn't, nothing more. I don't want this topic to become about me or what I do (no honestly :) ) - I hope only to show that the system is loose and open to abuse and as things stand you can find your reputable developer but even then you better hope that your luck is in. I can write up a better system in five minutes but for now, this is what we have.
One of the things I notice in people's posts and on programmes like "Holiday Homes from Hell" is the overuse of terms like "scam", "rip off" and "thief". I do not believe there are any cases of projects in Turkey where the entire plan was to make a project of apartments/villas with the intention of getting idiot foreigners to 'buy' them, then build them, then put them up as security on a bank loan then lose them to the bank - that is a ridiculous scheme if you are looking to rip people off. Forget the bank, just pocket the money and don't build anything - that's a proper scam ;)
I sat and thought one day, if they wanted to, could they do that. Could I do it - just killing time and filling a bored brain - could I get an architect to design me a project that didn't exist, sell it all off plan, take large deposits then bugger off without pouring a single bit of concrete? Answer: No - you don't need the architect, just find an existing site plan for a genuine project in Kusadasi or somewhere else miles away, take people to any old bit of empty land in Calis and point a bit. That's a proper scam. You don't need to worry about all the irritating chores like dealing with architects, getting permissions, buying concrete, reinforcing steel and ceramic tiles - just make it a huge project, get the deposits and run.
So, maybe I have shown that most scams are not in fact scams, they are the result of what happens when people of limited knowledge/experience meet the bursting of a market that yesterday seemed to be a licence to print money. My only motivation to post this is to try and dispel the idea that putting 'bought' properties up as loan security is a great way to get rich quick - it is in my experience the first stage of quite the opposite.
-
We bought in Calis in 2005 and sold last year. When we sold Interturk & Keith sold it for us, the process was reasuring and safe for both us and the purchaser ... only a small deposit held by a third party until the Tapu changed then final payment made and all signed off with no problems.
I can't understand why so many people leave their brains at the airport. I have a friend that bought elswhere in Turkey 4 years ago, just over a year ago we were talking about his property and he told me it was in the name of a friend of his cousins??? I pointed out to him that in law he doesn't actually own anything!!! Now a year on he has found out that loans have been secured on these properties!! Surprise Surprise???
It wasn't a scam, as Keith says - It's Stupid people doing Stupid things that they would NEVER do in the UK.
If we to buy over there again Keith & Co are the ONLY estate agent I would use and if all UK purchasers had their brains turned on, they should forget the washing machine and worry about their hard earned cash. There are safe ways to buy - talk to Keith!!