Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
General Topics => The Debating Chamber => Topic started by: Menthol on August 18, 2013, 19:53:03 PM
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Do you believe this?
(http://s24.postimg.org/8qrmzdwgh/hijab.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/8qrmzdwgh/)
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No, after 302 posts you should be able to post a link.
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No, after 302 posts you should be able to post a link.
I tried a different way. It didn't work.
As the actress said to the bishop.
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Strange, it normally does work a different way for Roman Catholic bishops.
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Strange, it normally does work a different way for Roman Catholic bishops.
It was the actress it didn't work for.
Moving on.
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I don't know, I thought hijabs was an injection not in the arse.
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Personally, I believe the "Hijab" to be an invaluable piece of kit, it certainly saved my darling Loz from shovelling a tonne bag of gravel from the back of the truck, as well as barrowing it around to the rear of our bungalow !! ;) 8) :angel:
(http://s19.postimg.org/pps7ex6jj/pic_Lorry_Loader_HIAB_Operator_Training_628450_l.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/pps7ex6jj/)
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Everyone's a bloody comedian aren't they?
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Genuinely funny :D
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Personally I don't think the Full veiled Hijab should be worn in the UK, cycle helmets have to be taken off when entering public establishments,
If a person does wrong how can we the public confirm that the wrong doer is male or female. France has the right Idea, ban it.
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Why do religions (always started by men) have to subjugate woman? It seems to me every religion known has some punishment for it's woman members :(
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Why do religions that contain widespread sexual abusers of boys and young men stand so staunchly against Homosexuality?
Or is that another subject :D
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That religion also treats woman as second class citizens, but agree about the abuse.
Strangest think I know of, from my Jewish friend in Florida is the Jewish belief that woman shave their heads when they marry and wear wigs....
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In Florida or generally?
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So, are we to believe that it will not be acceptable to attempt inject a sense of humour into our new Debating Chamber ? I sincerely hope not, as it brings an entirely new dimension to The Forum. It is a very sad person who cannot laugh at their-self, in my opinion. As regards the "Hajib", "Burka", or whatever it is called by various religious groups, I feel it is an insult to my intelligence to be asked to believe that women who are forced, either by religion, or husbands/family members, to "hide" behind this , are more than happy to do so !
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Humour is the one thing that sets CBF apart from most other forums I believe. It should have access to all sections :D
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Jacqui , I have just googled "Jewish women shaving their heads", (personally,Judaism is my least favourite religion), but I was shocked :o at what I read !! :angel:
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So, are we to believe that it will not be acceptable to attempt inject a sense of humour into our new Debating Chamber ? I sincerely hope not, as it brings an entirely new dimension to The Forum. It is a very sad person who cannot laugh at their-self, in my opinion. As regards the "Hajib", "Burka", or whatever it is called by various religious groups, I feel it is an insult to my intelligence to be asked to believe that women who are forced, either by religion, or husbands/family members, to "hide" behind this , are more than happy to do so !
My comedian comment was me being very typically sarcastic, Gordon.
As someone who looks for (and tends to find) the humour in most subjects, I fully expect the Chamber to be at once serious, humorous and as frustrating as trying to get my Dad not to believe everything he reads in The Mail and Express ....... that was also not a dig.
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Yes, I first noticed it at sale in a shop in N.Y. it was in a Jewish owned shop and I noticed the women where wearing wigs
I emailed my friend in Florida who explained it to me. I was also shocked. However, there was a programme on T.V. recently about Jewish people in England and the lady of the house said she had refused to shave her head.
This in an awful thing to as women to do.. and why shouldn't Jewish men shave their heads as well?? Religion punishing women again.
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Agreed Loz.
During an extremely cold spell very early one morning during the winter Joanna was stopped by traffic cops due to the fact her face was partly covered by her scarf and her hat (in their view) was too far down her forehead.
Being my daughter, she quickly pointed out that there are plenty of woman wearing the hijab so why don't you stop them? Whilst one officer had a little snigger the other didn't find it a suitable comment and wanted to book her. Thankfully common sense took over and she was allowed to carry on her journey.
Seems we have rules for them and rules for us!
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One very deep thought provoking idea Jacqui, Christians look to God as the foundation of the Christian religion, BUT, who is to say that God is NOT a woman ?? If this were the case, it would make a nonsense of your statement that religions are always started by men ! ;) And, no, I am not chauvinistic !! :o :angel:
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Your Not? :o ???
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No, not today ! :angel:
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Just a cloon
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Anne's daughter's story reminds me of a former colleague.
Driving home at 3 in the morning he was stopped for speeding. 45 in a 40 since you ask. He was asked by Plod 1 what he would do if a child had run in front of him. He replied he would blame the parents as children should be at home in bed at that time of night. Plod 1 also wanted to nick him but Plod 2 was laughing too much.
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Re the hijab, last year I was sat eating at a market catering stall when a muslim woman
came and sat near me and she had bought a jacket potato with beans in a tray.She flipped
the veil up over her head and scoffed her meal blindfolded,not a pretty sight.Some of it hit
the target,some didn't but it brightened a few peoples day. :)
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I don't think it is for anyone to say what people should or should not wear as long as it is their choice. I have met and seen intelligent educated women interviewed who choose to wear the Hijab or Burka. They also consider themselves feminists.
The problem lies where the decision is forced on women by family expectations linked to the lifestyle adopted when conforming to religion or whatever; often the abuse of individual or institutional power by men over women.
Doğan told me that when he traveled from Iran back to Turkey on the bus as soon as the bus crossed the Turkish border most of the women on the bus ripped off their head coverings, brushed their hair out for all to see. They were traveling for the most part with their husbands.
Where I would personally draw the line is when women want to be employed in jobs that involve them working with children or similar particularly in schools. Body language and facial expressions are a very important part of the communication process and if the face in particular is concealed then this will hinder the learning process.
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The hijab is an insult.
It is an insult to the women who wear it and the women who don't wear it. It's an insult to men.
My background is as a Muslim woman. I have never been forced to wear anything. I have, however, chosen to cover my hair when in certain company. I chose to do this supposedly out of a mark of respect. When actually, if I'm truthful, it was to prevent embarrassment. Mine and theirs.
The burka or hijab (there are differences but for this post I refer to the full body covering robes and covered face) has absolutely nothing to do with religion. There's not one section of the Quran that dictates a woman should dress in this way. Only a reference to both men and women dressing modestly.
Men chose to force women to cover themselves. This is because women are seen as only sexual objects, placed here on earth to gratify men and give birth. Therefore every nuance of shape, hint of lip or in some cases, glint of eye, must be disguised and shrouded.
Men are so unable to control their lustful feelings and desires, that temptation should be removed from them as much as possible. Women should be only shadows unless they are in the bedroom waiting for their husband.
Women who do not cover themselves in such a way, are inferior Muslim women, far less pious and worthy, or even corrupt Western women, who have no dignity or self respect.
It's an insult to everyone.
Muslim women who declare they are feminists and wear the hijab as a choice are lying to themselves.
They are 'allowed' to be strident and speak out and demonstrate their intelligence because they still dress like a good Muslim woman. They don't therefore offend their families and honour quite so much.
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Very interesting piece you wrote there Menthol and good to hear the views of a Muslim woman first hand.
Thanks for sharing your opinions. I enjoyed reading them. They only confirmed what I have always thought.
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I thought this might be of interest to the debate so we all have a common understanding of the terms used.
Hijab: This is the most common type of Islamic dress, which covers the woman’s body, leaving only her face and hands visible.
Niqab: This type is like the hijab, except it also covers part of the face, leaving only the eyes visible.
Burqa: This type is the least common, and involves covering the whole body as well as covering the face with mesh, so that the eyes are not visible.
The hijab can generally be found amongst Muslim women all over the world, while the niqab and burqa are more common in specific regions.
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A friend of mine is going to live in Saudi for 2 years as her husband is working there. She has to live in a "Camp" She can wear what she wants there. When she leaves the camp she must wear the hijab. (her husband has bought her some, but they all have to be black). She will not be allowed to drive and so will be transported by her husband or by camp bus to the shops and back...
Of course, it's a great opportunity for them to make some money and her husband's company has asked him to work out there for them, but she has decided she does not want to stay any longer than two years.
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I too, would like to thank Menthol for her post.
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Yes, excellent post Menthol, thank you.
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Its great for a bad hair day ;D ;D but saying that so would the wig.. :o
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Re Jewish women shaving the head and wearing a wig when married: (pretty obviously) this only applies to ultra orthodox women - a small minority. Just about every religion has an extreme element - the Jewish religion caters to a broad spectrum of belief and practice: from liberal to reform to conservative to orthodox to ultra orthodox - take your pick. :)
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My friend's sister is orthodox Jewish, (my friend married out so no longer orthodox) and she wears a wig, but she still has her own hair underneath. At home she takes off the wig. I thought she had a beautiful little girl with long blond curly hair but it was a little boy, they don't cut their hair till they're 4.
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How refreshing to read Menthol's post, very well put.
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I never knew about the Orthodox Jewish stipulation of women shaving their heads. I knew that a lot of Jewish women favoured wigs but never really knew why.
I do remember some years ago being regaled by a young lady I commuted with on the train, of her tales of Jewish Orthodoxy and her wedding night in Israel. Tradition dictated that their flesh wasn't allowed to touch and so a 'marriage sheet' is used. This is a sheet with a hole in it and the sheet is then hung out of the window the following morning, complete with vital stains ( :P ) to ensure the community knows the 'deed' was done. I hear a well known adage coming on ......
Thanks guys for your kind feedback. As it happens, I now consider myself an atheist and have for some years.
However, some things are hard to shift.
I still only eat halal.
I don't drink alcohol.
The call of the muezzin is still one of my favourite sounds ever.
I still dress quite modestly. Man and womankind needs to be grateful for this last one, by the way. Mine is not a midriff meant for displaying.
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I am fascinated and interested in all kinds of religions, customs and beliefs. I do get very angry and uptight by all extremists though. I can only respect their beliefs whilst they are not trying to force them on others.
The Burqa and to some extent the Niqab, I find sinister and I would be downright uncomfortable talking to someone wearing one.
Jacqui's friend going to Saudi - I could never live like that and if the custom has to be respected, I just wouldn't go. I do wish her luck trying to acclimatise.
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Exactly why I put in my post the Full veiled Hijab, I have no problem with head scarfs, my granny had a draw full of them, i even tolerate the Sunday drivers who wear Trilby hats, Yorkshire men in flat caps obligatory ;D with head attire we can all still see the person beneath, and if they are male or female, but the full veil should be banned.
France has the right idea, Viva la France!!!
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A friend of mine is going to live in Saudi for 2 years as her husband is working there. She has to live in a "Camp" She can wear what she wants there. When she leaves the camp she must wear the hijab. (her husband has bought her some, but they all have to be black). She will not be allowed to drive and so will be transported by her husband or by camp bus to the shops and back...
Of course, it's a great opportunity for them to make some money and her husband's company has asked him to work out there for them, but she has decided she does not want to stay any longer than two years.
7 years with my lady in Riyadh Saudi Arabia, iwestrn women have to wear an abaya (long black robe) and a scarf rather than a "Hijab". it is like a lot of things not as it seems, it is a Family business run by a Despotic family who steal the Countries resources and use religion to keep everyone in position. The Mutawa -- religious Police--are mental degenerates who shout at women to cover their hair in the markets, drag people out of cars to pray at prayer time --- all shops and restaurants etc must close during prayers -- then half of them can be found on holiday in the Ladyboy bars of Thailand! Anything that threatens the Al Saudos total control is deemed anti Islamic -- horrible place? Well, it can be but we actually had a great time socially, so hopefully they will, if they are on one of the Compounds run by Major British Companies it is like a permanent holiday for the ladies! It is nothing to do with Islam and most Moslems deplore the Saudi regime!
But the whole issue of religion, and this from an ex-lay preacher by the way -- is about Control, it doesnt matter what religion it is it was invented by Man to control! Just consider Christianity, not getting anywhere much until a Roman Emperor needed a way of controlling the people and heard of it, a religion that tells you to do what you are told? That tell you to be humble? That tells you to render under Caesars that which is Caesars??? Bring it on I will convert myself! Not too mention teaching Children at an early age, what is the hymn you all learn "All things bright and beautiful"?? "The rich man at his Castle, the poor man at his gate, the Lord God made each and everyone according to hi state " you lot stay down there where you belong!
All religions have always been about Control, whether the Shaman or the Mullah the message is the same, and women in the World have been singled out for control! But not from the start, but interpretation to suit, such as Islam nowhere in the Koran does it say women should cover their faces or even their hair, it just says a woman should dress modestly, funny that is in Judaism, Christianity etc. but doesn't anywhere say cover your hair or shave your head!
It worked though, people were more law abiding and generally better behave in the UK when religion was stronger, Jacqui you are probably too young to remember but there was a time in most of Scotland you couldn't buy a box of matches on a Sunday! My mother got told off for washing clothes on the Sabbath :)
Hijab, no, because it is about subjugation not religion! But people are easily fooled, after fighting to remove the subjugation women in Iran only wore a Chador (long robe and veil) during Ramadan, rest of time many wore western dress. Along cane charismatic religious leaders that persuaded them that God would over throw the Shah if they wore the Chador and once he had gone and the Ayatollah arrived ---- well, back to the dark ages! Women lost all their rights and stoning to death back as the main attraction at the weekend!
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This has been a very interesting thread. I feel more aware thanks guys
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Regarding the barbarous Jewish barbers, if one reads up on it, ALL followers of Judaism are expected to adhere to strict practises as regards their hair, & NOT only orthodox Jews. All female followers of Judaism are expected to have their beautiful, lustrous locks shorn, in order to appease a silly man called Rabbie, but, like the Quran, there is no mention in the Torah about having to do this ! John Taylors post is perhaps one of the most enlightening I have read on the subject, & I thank him. By the way, if one reads Wikipedia re. Judaism, one will discover that Jews have "square heads". ! ??? ??? ??? ???
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Agreed an interesting and educational thread.
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I don't think it is for anyone to say what people should or should not wear as long as it is their choice. I have met and seen intelligent educated women interviewed who choose to wear the Hijab or Burka. They also consider themselves feminists.
Although I agree with many that Menthol's posts have been strong, I also find this contribution by Nicola interesting. I have chaired discussions on this issue between covered Muslim women, uncovered Muslim women, non-Muslim women and a few non-Muslim men (who tended to keep rather quiet). All of these were undergraduates in the UK. I was impressed with the strength, and pride, of the covered students who asserted their dress was their own choice. Often they also talked, in response to suggestions that they were pressured by their family, of the difficulties and disputes they experienced due to the disapproval of their non-covered mothers. A common view was that an earlier generation saw removal of "the veil" as liberation: they, the new generation, saw putting it on again as their own statement of personal values and freedom.
I realize that the notion of "personal choice" may be an illusion in the context of a dominant ideology but I found I could not simply dismiss their strongly-expressed claims as mere cultural indoctrination.
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As always Colwyn, an extremely cogent point, & elegantly put. Your last point, specifically, "personal choice" in a "dominant ideology" would make an unshakeable example of an oxymoron, within a learning environment. North Korea springs to mind also, but, that is a totally other, different kettle o' fish !
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So woman have the choice do your hair, put on make up and a nice outfit and go out and feel good about yourself. Alternatively do what men want you to do because you are a possession and they are insecure, so put on a drab black gown and cover up for the rest of your life, whilst the man in your life wears what he wants and drives where he wants... Sorry, woman are deluding themselves if they want to lead a subjugated life to please men.
Why do all religions make woman suffer, which religion actually makes men even a little uncomfortable?
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I believe having probably the most sensitive part of my anatomy ripped off by someone with NO medical/surgical training whatsoever, i.e. the local rabbi, under the guise of necessity, in a certain religion called Judaism, would make me "a little uncomfortable", as you put it Jacqui !!
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Jesuits tend to be a mite uncomfortable.
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Most men in the States have this done now Gordon, it's the norm, whatever religion you are. Anyway it's a short period of suffering when you are young and not a life long subjugation.
Also remember in a lot of cultures including African this happens to females usually at the age of 9-11 held down with no pain killer and done with a dirty knife by some old woman then with a lifetime of no pleasure in sex and extremely difficult child birth.
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Thank you for that snippet of information Jacqui.
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I wouldn't say that it was "quite the norm"!, Jacqui, it is ritual disfigurement, no matter which way you "cut it", so to speak. If we males were not meant to have a foreskin, we would have been born without one surely ?? If the god Jehovah that is worshipped by Jews was as omnipotent as they believe, he or she, would have surely wished his followers to be made in his image, no ? Ergo, in the beginning there was no being but God/Jehovah/Allah/Krishna/Shiva, et al, there was no one else around to mutilate them, so, if the "Supreme" being wished his followers to be created in his/her image, why force this mutilation upon them ?? A never-ending dilemma, methinks.
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Most men in the States have this done now Gordon, it's the norm, whatever religion you are. Anyway it's a short period of suffering when you are young and not a life long subjugation.
Also remember in a lot of cultures including African this happens to females usually at the age of 9-11 held down with no pain killer and done with a dirty knife by some old woman then with a lifetime of no pleasure in sex and extremely difficult child birth.
The removal of the foreskin reduces the sexual pleasure a man experiences both during intercourse and other sexual activities such that whilst not as extreme as the "female circumcision" -- (which it most definitely isn't its agonising castration! Barbaric and horrific and we should jail offenders in the UK for at least 20 years) it is still a practice encouraged through Religions based on sexual repressions of mentally maladjusted people. It is often stated that this was done for good health reasons in primitive societies and ancient times, some truth in that, but, except for Saudi Arabia -- it is no longer 1434! I agree with all you say about the weak masculinity of people that encourage the subjugation of women.
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Regarding the barbarous Jewish barbers, if one reads up on it, ALL followers of Judaism are expected to adhere to strict practises as regards their hair, & NOT only orthodox Jews. All female followers of Judaism are expected to have their beautiful, lustrous locks shorn, in order to appease a silly man called Rabbie, but, like the Quran, there is no mention in the Torah about having to do this ! John Taylors post is perhaps one of the most enlightening I have read on the subject, & I thank him. By the way, if one reads Wikipedia re. Judaism, one will discover that Jews have "square heads". ! ??? ??? ??? ???
Well, that's what you get for being an ex-preacher :) You have a sort of inside track on Religion! You would be amazed
how many ex-priests. Vicars etc. actually believe in God and pray frequently but do not wish to "belong" to a an organised Religion! But, we wander from the Hijab, Chador, Burkha subject a tad.
The biggest problem with all Religion is interpretation, and the practises like the covering of women are a total contradiction in Islam, Islam is in fact a pretty tolerant Religion overall, it is these archaic and subjugational practises that alienate the Moslem from society rather than protecting women from advances. In Saudi Arabia it was hilarious to watch the young women (usually married, often to men who were either sexually impotent or just used them with no care or love) in the Supermarket either passing pieces of paper with their private mobile number or the men muttering their number as they stood near them!) and men setting up liaisons, all from within a total black "sack" except the heavily made up eyes! So much for the "Hijab" and "Modesty"! In a land where women are totally subjugated in the name of Religion, covered often head to toe, (In places like Burraidah even the hands covered with black gloves) and the whole sexual repression encouraged by this extreme implementation of Religion shown for what it is! So, what is my point? Well we often hear the phrase "It is written" and Religions often say they "follow the words of the Book" but it isn't in the book! Priests may not marry and must remain Celibate -- not in the Bible, forced in by Pope Gregory I believe in an attempt to increase Control. Women must cover their heads and faces, not in the Koran, etc. So it is not written at all and has no basis, so, women who willingly wear this statement of subjugation are wrong, no if's or but's!
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"So it is not written at all and has no basis, so, women who willingly wear this statement of subjugation are wrong, no if's or but's!"
I utterly agree, John!
If you decide to wear your headscarf because you think it flatters you or it covers up a bad hair day, fine. What you shouldn't do is wear it because you want to make a statement as a Muslim woman, that you are choosing to wear it. Because that really is bullsh*t.
The concept of women covering their heads to prevent men being tempted by their lustrous locks was invented by those very same men 1400+ years ago. If that hadn't occurred, it'd never have crossed any woman's mind to do it.
And just as John has regaled - if you want to get up to some hanky panky, not much is going to stop you.
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Brilliant, thank you now have a title for my book -- "Hanky Panky in Malaz Safeway" :)
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Do you need a Preface, John ? : :) :angel:
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You were already first on my list Gordon! :)
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Brilliant, thank you now have a title for my book -- "Hanky Panky in Malaz Safeway" :)
I'll purchase a signed copy. Thank you.