Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
Other Local Resorts & Areas => Kayakoy Discussion Forum => Topic started by: KKOB on December 27, 2008, 15:07:30 PM
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On Boxing Day afternoon the Jandarma toured the Kaya Valley delivering Demolition Orders issued by the Governor's Office in Mugla to over 160 property owners, ourselves included.
In short, these orders are for occupiers of the properties to vacate them by the 5th January 2009 in preparation for the properties to be demolished on the grounds that they were built illegally.
On completion of the demolition, the property owner will receive a bill for the cost of the work carried out. However, if the owner demolishes the property themselves, there will be no costs involved.
The strangest part about these actions are that the Jandarma advised one of our neighbours, a surgeon at the Devlet hospital, that once the properties had been demolished, they could be rebuilt and would then be legal . ???
[:(!]
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Bloody hell Kaya!! what is your next move?
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OMG - they can't be serious - can they?
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Surely with that amount of houses involved you can get together and fight it?
I really don't know what to say...
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Good lord Alan :o, I hope you can all get together & fight this decision together.
Did any of you know this was on the cards! or, is it a bolt out of the blue? :-\
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OMG, can they do this? With only one week's notice? :( As cef says, did any of you have any idea that this could happen? Poor you, having all that stress and worry, particularly at this time of year. Though, at any time of year, this is a bloody nightmare. :(
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:obloody hell good luck to all involed.:-\
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we too are part of the 160 that will be knocked down on the 5th but i cant say i didnt expect it !!! there has been no building permition in kaya for about 25years so when we bought our house we should have looked in to it !!!! the first 6 houses are due to be started on monday ??? watch this space we will keep you informed :([xx(][?]
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What a thing to happen! I only hope you get this resolved soon. Will watch this thread for updates.
All the best.
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thanks mate , im not going to let it spoil my new year im havin a massssssive house party so maybe we can do the job for them !!!!:D
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In some countries if a builing has been there so long without permission it is then granted if no-one has objected.Can you not get retrospective permission?
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Hi sorry to hear what you are all going through. We know from personal experience what nonsence they can come up with round here.
If there is anything we can do to help please ask.
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Bloody hell, dont know what to say, except that the turkish authorities never cease to amaze, who makes these decisions? I sincerely hope the situation can be resolved for all concerned.
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OMG, that's a shock! I really hope something comes up to save the day. Best wishes to all involved.
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Sorry to hear this KKOB. Just from your posts it is easy to see that you are settled. I also remember the picture of your house and it is beautiful.
Unfortunately it is not like lego where you can dismantle it and put it back together again to make it legal. I hope the authorities see sense before it gets to that stage.
Thoughts are also with the other folk who are in the same position.
Keep us posted
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:o flippin heck Alan!! what an outrage!!!hope you can do something about it?????????
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my information is there is nothing we can do! but if when they come to demolish us we have started the job (ie knocked down one wall in the house) they will leave us and go on to the next one?! [?][?]
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How kind..
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KKOB - how awful. Wish there was something we could do to help. If the worst does happen and you need a place to stay, just let us know - our little house in uzumlu is yours if you need it. Take care xxx
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Would a petition to the Governor's Office in Mugla make any difference? Also to the local newspapers? This is terrible.
Hope they see sense in time to not go ahead with this action.
Dave
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A devastating piece of news Alan, what a bloody awful start to 2009. Can only echo everyones wish that something can be sorted to avoid this debacle.
Goog luck to all 160 of you.
Ken
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This is Mrs KKOB....Can't remember my own sign in details and am just too worked up to find them.
FriendlyGhost.....PM me Please, would like to know who you are and where you are in the village.
Our House was built by Hanel.......If we take one wall out, we'd probably complete the job for them anyway...Joking aside.....I'd like to know why the effin Turkish government took the tax owed by the builders on all these illegal builds, and then allowed them all to have water and electric supplied to them, just to do this in the future?? How the hell can they even begin to justify this when there's plans to build a big holiday complex right under the Ghost Village. Why go to the huge expense of recently updating all the old electric pylons and cable into the village if they are going to flatten all the houses that are connected to the electric.
And I'd also like to know when they are going to demolish the mosque, because if RULES are RULES then the Mosque is illegal too. They had just started building that in August 2004.
How come there's a supposedly legal building going on opposite the Kaya Vardi Villas, how can there be parcels of land with 3% build permission advertised in land of lights and various websites.
Why has one landowner been told by Mugla authorities that he can build on his plot as long as he incorporates the tiny stone ruin into the new build?
Someone has mentioned that this is just a scare tactic and the next thing we will hear is that we have all been fined AGAIN. The monies presumably going to fund their election campaign, another Kaya resident has said that it's to scare them into voting for the right party at the coming elections....well pardon me but, even if I was allowed to vote, I sure as hell wouldn't vote for a party in the March elections that bulldozed my home 2 months earlier in January.....Ben aptal miyum (spelling).
If you know the village pretty well and try and picture the Valley you will see that if every house and building that has NOT been built on the footprint of one of the 250+ year old places is illegal....then this will practically flatten the whole Valley. Every place that tourists stay in the season is, it would appear by what we have been told, illegal, inc The Istanbul, Muzzy's, Kaya Vardi Villas, possibly the Stables and many many more.
With 160+ homes involved a lot of them are going to have rental tenants in them, low income Turkish family's with children at the school who are going to have to find somewhere to go, How can they afford to find more income, as I don't suppose they will get any rent money bank if they paid in advance, even a few months.
What about all the people who have homes here, who are back in the UK or where ever they live for Christmas and New Year and are not due back till after 5th....
Please excuse the rambling, bad grammar and spelling..I'm not really thinking straight at the moment.
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That is abosolutely bloody ridiculous!
Turkish government at it again... making things up as they please!
If there is anything Ali or myself can do to help please dont hesitate to contact us!
I really hope you get this resolved!
What bloody pillocks!
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Having read Mrs Kaya's post, I feel for you so much, surely they cant go ahead with this, I hope something can be done to prevent this action taking place.
It most certainly does nothing to encourage people to come to their country and buy a home there,cant they see this.
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I can't stop thinking of this issue.
Does the Governor of Mugla not realise that potential buyers of property in Turkey are going to be put off doing so by this outrage?
Does the Turkish Government realise how this will affect the economy when people decide against "the dream" of living in Turkey.
Is this not typical of the human rights issues that are preventing Turkey from gaining entry to the EEC?
If there has been no building permission in Kaya for 25 years how have people been able to get a TAPU? I thought that this was a legal document proving ownership of the property?
As a potential buyer of property in Turkey I will certainly be following this issue & I totally sympathise with those of you who are under this threat.
Dave
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We really feel for all families involved in this debacle, and the timing does appear to be cruel when they obviously aware that this is the European holiday season.
Have you all contacted the Court of Human Rights? offices maybe closed but must be an emergency staff operating, as Turkey are a member of the Court then all matters should be halted whilst in litigation, isn't this the case?
Good luck to you all.
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Thanks for all the offers of support, advise and somewhere to sleep etc. You've all been very kind.
Since moving out here we've had some **it to put up with, with the bureaucracy and rip-offs, but the good times have always outweighed the bad. Despite misgivings at times, we've always tried to be positive about our decision to settle here.
However, at the moment Zimbabwe seems to be a very attractive alternative to Turkey ! ;)
Reading between the lines, this a political move of some kind and whilst I don't pretend to completely understand the motives, (I couldn't understand British politics let alone the Turkish system), it's probably linked to the March elections.
I have a feeling that all these "illegally built properties" are suddenly going to be given an amnesty an payment of a fine or something similar. Thus making the politicians involved in this debacle to appear magnanimous. I can't imagine that any sane government is going to allow the wholesale demolition of houses on such a large scale.
We'll keep you posted.
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Best wishes Alan , any help we can give goes without saying .Calvin
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In order for them to appear really magnanimous would it be worth getting the british papers involved?
That way they might be Magnanamous for free.
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Just a word of warning.... I can remember English ex-pats saying the same thing in Spain.
"This cant happen" But it did! The Spanish grabbed the land. Knocked hundreds of new houses down.
Everyone thought they were legal. The Spanish just made new laws.
Sorry to be doom and gloom, but dont sit and think it wont happen.
Good luck.
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Yep, I understand what happened in Spain.
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Sorry to read about about this post Alan, just lost for words. Bruce & Brenda
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quote:
Originally posted by heather07
In order for them to appear really magnanimous would it be worth getting the british papers involved?
That way they might be Magnanamous for free.
I agree with Heather. The more public this becomes then,hopefully, the Turkish authorities will realise that it is not in their interest to carry out this demolition threat.
The reality is that there is currently a large number of properties in the Mugla area that have not sold. I, as a potential property buyer, am certainly watching the outcome of this issue & won't want to buy in a country that threatens people in this way.
It is surely in Turkey's long term interests to "discover" that they have made a terrible mistake & reassure the people that they will not carry out this demolition or fine anyone.
Do they not realise how financially damaging this would be when people stop buying property in Turkey & also that the EEC is constantly monitoring Turkish human rights issues?
I sincerely hope that this outrage gets resolved soon &, in the mean time, can only offer my moral support & suggest that the people involved make this as public as possible.
Dave
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I was reading elsewhere that this is going on all over the Mugla area, apparently 6400 home are under threat, mostly Turkish owned, even the Mayor in one location.
Baz 8)
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quote:
Originally posted by Diverbaz 1
I was reading elsewhere that this is going on all over the Mugla area, apparently 6400 home are under threat, mostly Turkish owned, even the Mayor in one location.
Baz 8)
So its not just Foriegners that are in this situation...very strange..and with an election coming up to :o
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KKOB,
Unbelievable behaviour and if there is any thing we can do to help please let us know.
Contact the British Embassy in Ankara and the British Press.
The Embassy are extreemly helpful and they could start asking questions in Ankara on behalf of the UK citizens involved. This tends to have a knock on effect through to Mugla and can prove very effective.
Also tell the UK consulate in Fethiye that you are contacting the Embassy in Ankara.
Hit the UK papers with the story as even the Turkish Gov do not want bad publicity.
If I can think of anything else I will email you.
Good luck, from my experience the Embassy is a great 1st port of call and let the authorities in Mugla know that you are all (expats & Turks) going to fight it all the way.
Fi
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Do the lawyers or agents involved in the sale of the houses not have a degree of responsibility for the position that owners now find themselves in?
What are they doing about the problem?
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I have e-mailed the Fethiye Times on this issue. This is a copy:
"I was planning to buy a house in the Calis Beach area next year & live there permanently. I was therefore horrified to read that the authorities are threatening to demolish 160 houses in the Kaya area as they claim that they have no building permission.
I have also heard that there may be thousands of houses at risk of demolition in the Mugla area. What is happening out there? Unless the intention is to scare people away from moving to Turkey & spending there money there then the authorities had better have a very urgent re-think.
I, for one, would certainly not want to live in a country where this could happen, sounds like fascism to me! What type of people threaten innocent people with the loss of their family home?"
May I suggest that others who feel that this issue must not happen, also write to the newspapers. This should be publicised for the outrageous bullying against innocent people that it is.
Dave Gardner.
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Hi KKOB I just can't believe what I have just read. You must be absolutely devasted. I just hope this is scare tactics as was suggested because they want votes in March (funny way of going about getting votes) and another way of collecting money again via fines.
I cannot imagine how you are feeling right now. I hope all those involved can get together and collectively do something to make the government realise what a ridulous and stupid thing to do, and it will In the long run not do them any favours at all.
You mentioned that if you demolish the property yourselves then you can rebuild it and it will then be legal.
Why can they not just give you all retrospective planning permision? And why is it the property owners who have to suffer?. What happens to the builders and Landowners?
I hope with all my Heart that this doesn't happen and you all get things sorted out.
regards
Jacquie :):-\
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I've just received this e-mail. Could be worth keeping an eye on the Fethiye Times to see what they say.
Hi Dave,
Thanks for your email. We are looking into the news story and will post an article on Fethiye Times when we have the full picture.
Regards,
Iain
Editor - www.fethiyetimes.com
From: Dave Gardner
Sent: 28 December 2008 17:07
To: fethiyetimes@gmail.com
Subject: House demolition in Mugla?
I was planning to buy a house in the Calis Beach area next year & live there permanently. I was therefore horrified to read that the authorities are threatening to demolish 160 houses in the Kaya area as they claim that they have no building permission.
I have also heard that there may be thousands of houses at risk of demolition in the Mugla area. What is happening out there? Unless the intention is to scare people away from moving to Turkey & spending there money there then the authorities had better have a very urgent re-think.
I, for one, would certainly not want to live in a country where this could happen, sounds like fascism to me! What type of people threaten innocent people with the loss of their family home?
Dave Gardner.
edited to remove email address
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I want to thank all my neighbours for looking after me. My husband is a marine engineer and he is in India working at the moment. I havent told him what has been happening, because there is no way he can get off the ship. I dont want to worry him if this is all political and nothing happens. The thing that worries me if it does happen is my 3 cats and a 12 yr old blind dog that we brought over from Scotland. My dog would never survive quarantine in UK. Once again thank you for ofering accomadation from everyone that has phoned me
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I am also appalled at the possible outcome of these notices but the facts are that if a property has been built without permission there is a liklihood that it may be demolished. This is not aimed at ex-pats and by the sound of things there are likely to be more Turks that will have property knocked down.
I was one of those unfortunate enough to lose my Spanish property and when we decided on Turkey Kaya valley was the area we preffered 5 years ago. We were offered some lovely plots for building and were buying one when it was pointed out by a friend that there had not been permission to build for years. The ownner of the land said that "you just pay a fine" and it will be OK. I am so glad we didn't listen. It seems that Caveat Emptor applies everywhere.
Best of luck to all involved
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Well have only just read this topic and its bloody surreal. How awful for you all. I just dont understand how the bloody workers in the tapu office dont get hung drawn and quartered as well as loosing their jobs. How can they give you legal tapus when their is no living persmission. Why arent the authorities checking up on these offices and their procedures. Why is the last person down the line- the owner, the one to suffer. Is it because the backhander system is still the law of the land. Why are'nt Hanel Houses and all the other agents who sold the land accountable? You must fight this and if there is anyway that we can help we will. Shall we all come up to Kaya on the the 5th to protest?
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This is copied from Hanel Houses web-site today:
KAYAKOY
Kayakoy
"Kaya koy, an old deserted greek village situated 7km south of Fethiye, was abandoned when its Greek inhabitants were expelled in 1923 after the War of Independence. The locals live amoung the 100s of ruins in this small picturesque village. Some of the stone houses here are available for renovation and so make for an unusual but interesting place to live."
So it should surely be Hanel Houses that the authorities have a problem with & not the property owners. If Hanel built illegaly & are still advertising property development in Kaya then it is well out of order.
I just hate bullies, whether they be individuals or those with authority!
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Alan, I wish you all the luck in the world, this news, is a travesty Too far : :)
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Have you got a Tapu for the building & living permission? If so then surely it's a legal property?
If not then surely it's Hanel who is to blame? I remember looking at a couple of Hanel properties MANY years back & we were told that Hanel would repurchase/swap any properties at the purchase price or higher. Might have just been salesman talk OR maybe at the time when prices were still rocketing? Do you have this option?
Is this yet another building built by Hanel where they shouldn't have? If this is the case then it could be just the tip of the iceburg if the government decides now or a few years down the line to flatten all properties built by them without proper permission. MANY other members on here could be affected.
I really feel for you & hope that this gets sorted - without you having to cough up loads, or anything, come to that! I remember seeing photographs of your property & thinking how idyllic it looked. It's a dreadful time of the year to have this happen - NOT that any time is a good time! I suspect that there will be a few people home in Britain for the festive season that get one hell of a shock when they see this topic.
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Alan -and other affected, can't beleive what I have read. It makes you worry for your own purchase, you think it's all ok but who knows. I truly hope you can make someone see sense.
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Do not know if this helps but this is something happened to em five years ago regarding land in kaya koy,my brothes fiend wanted to buy land there and asked me to call the powers that be in mugla to check it out i made the call and this is what i was told,"any buildings built on land in kaya koy was ilegal,but i was told belive this or not that if he went ahead and built it could be demolished by the government at anytime up to five times on the fifth demolition the building then becomes leagal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The land at kaya also has something to do with the past greek turkish thing I know there is a greek group who still have talks with the turks when it comes to kaya i dont know who they are but might be worth tying to find out at the greek consulate.
Good luck to you all my thoughts are with you.
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Alan and everyone invlolved in this fiasco, I sincerely hope you find some way round this horrid situation.
As for Hanel, I know that Dippey pushed them the whole road and got every penny back from her purchase on Summer apartments due to it being built illegally so this may be a route to investigate further.
Good luck
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Truly awful and I hope you get it sorted. I think we all need to be letting as many UK papers know as possible. I've mailed the Sun with a link to this article.
We can't let them get away with this!
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I agree & have contacted the Daily Record yesterday. Information I am hearing suggests that "Hanel" builders may have been guilty of building in areas of Turkey where they should not have. If this is the case then surely they should be penalised by the authorities & there is no justification in persecuting the home owners.
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yes anne your right and our company did it for her, so alan if we can be of help get in touch. stuart.
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I also think Hanel have a lot to answer for. For years now they have been building on Touristic land and seeming to get away with it. Maybe it's now coming back to bite them on the bum.
This really needs kicking up into one big stink.
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Maybe Hanel should pay a massive fine for all the illegal builds, and then their victims be left to live in peace.
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May I suggest that as many of us as possible contact the news media to highlight this atrocious issue?
Daily Record, Fethiye Times, Land of Lights, all informed plus Stoop has contacted the Sun but I still think that there is weight in numbers so would encourage CBF members to contact the media. It is easy to do via the internet.
Lets nip this one in the bud! It is SO unfair!
Dave
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HH are a huge company, also known as Artev now in Bodrum, but, they are NOT the only builders/developers, their properties are a drop in the ocean.
Out of the 6,400 developers who are they?
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I've just written to the Daily Mail, dont know if it will be of any help, but just felt I had to do something.
Please everyone, write to a newspaper!
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Whilst this is a dreadful situation for anyone to find themselves in,do any of the 6,400 properties involved actually have full Tapu, including permission to build,& habitation certificate? If not, then it seems that under Turkish law, they will not have a case if it goes to court!
Gordon.
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:) Stoop, you know what i'm like on computers, (crap) if its not too much trouble could you sne the link to the Liverpool Echo, its not as local as you might think, and they do ask for stories to be sent in, especially with them doing a article about more people going to Turkey next year.
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quote:
Originally posted by GordonA
Whilst this is a dreadful situation for anyone to find themselves in,do any of the 6,400 properties involved actually have full Tapu, including permission to build,& habitation certificate? If not, then it seems that under Turkish law, they will not have a case if it goes to court!
Gordon.
I can not believe that there are 6,400 properties without the required certification. If there was, then surely there has been a mass illegal action by several agencies? I believe that we can help these people whose homes are under threat by making sure the British media gets hold of the story. What's the danger in doing that? The people already stand to lose there homes. Heads should roll in high places for this fiasco. It is common knowledge, I believe, that one of the biggest building companies was run by a member of the Turkish Government & that this same company have been guilty of building houses where they should not have.
I know how I would feel if it happened to me. We are just coming to the end of a 3 year legal hassle over a boundary dispute involving our house in UK & that was stressful enough. Come on folks, show your support by contacting the press & authorities.
Dave
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:) Well said Dave. ;)
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I think the 6,400 'alleged' illegal properties, are just the ones identified in Mugla...... Lord knows, how many actually exist in total, in Turkey :-\
There have been so many Turkish property 'horror stories', I hope Turkey takes the initiative to correct this further injustice.
Well said Dave [^]. I've amended my previous post & removed my 'personal comments', my apologies to all :-\, it all gets a bit too much to bear, some times!! :-\
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quote:
Originally posted by laffa
:) Stoop, you know what i'm like on computers, (crap) if its not too much trouble could you sne the link to the Liverpool Echo, its not as local as you might think, and they do ask for stories to be sent in, especially with them doing a article about more people going to Turkey next year.
Consider it done Laffa :)
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This is an extremely sad issue causing much stress and anguish and my sympathies go out to all those involved in this diabolical situation.
This is a long shot, but the Hanel Houses 5 year guarantee (on their website) states that should any part of the building develop a fault, this will be repaired free of charge. I think that having no building permission is an extremely serious 'fault'. (If that is the case and there is no building permission).
The fact that the buildings appear to have a very serious 'fault' in that they should never have been built seems to me to be relevant.
Could it therefore be argued that HH should correct the 'fault' in accordance with their guarantee by either:
a) Demolishing the 'faulty' buildings themselves
b) Obtaining the building permissions (which they should have had in the first place)
c) Rebuilding the properties (this would be the 'repair' on receipt of correct permissions
d) If none of the above are possible giving a full refund to all the owners of the properties on the grounds that they have been unable to fulfil their warranty.
Same could be true for other developers who offer warranties on similar terms.
My thoughts are all I have to offer - with best of luck
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My understanding is that there was recently a 6 month ban on non-Turkish citizens buying property in Turkey & that the property market in Turkey has not really recovered from that time resulting in a current over supply of houses for sale.
How absolutely stupid is it then for the authorities to be making this threat of demolition?
Once this becomes common knowledge in the UK & the people in Turkey with a vote realise how damaging this threat is to the Turkish economy at a time when there is an emphasis on selling properties to ex-pats from the UK then, hopefully, the authorities will do the morally correct thing & punish those who built & sold the properties illegally & those who issued the TAPUs illegally.
It happened in Spain, the word on the street is that Turkey is now the destination of choice for retiring to & buying property. NOT if they are going to tear down people's houses!
So, no apoligies for repeating myself.......please contact the media & authorities to let them know that this is not tolerable behaviour.....I love Turkey & want to live there but we will need to reconsider pending the outcome of the demolition threat.
Dave
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There are alot of houses/homes in Turkey referred to as gece kondo translated in english it means night house,many turks came into towns and cities for work etc they then found a piece of land and basically built a building over night and moved in,there are still thousands of them all over Turkey most of theses homes have no legal pape work at all in some cases the Turkish govenement have given ownership to the tenants in othe cases they rip them down! last year in gunlukbasi there were several gece kondo house down by the canal the tenants were asked to leave the poperties and then the powers that be put them up for sale at auction.
Personally I think fo the residents of kaya the best road to go down for now is with local and international press kaya does not need another incident shall we say it will not taste sweet in the tea of the officals.
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This thread appears to be developing into an anti-Hanel Houses campaign.
Whilst we're not their greatest fans, we'd like to point out that as far as we're aware, ours is the only house built in the Kaya Valley by Hanel Houses to be the subject of one of these notices.
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KKOB - I think it's gone that way because you told us the property was built by Hanel - who ARE notorious for (let's face it!) building where they shouldn't & paying backhanders. They then lie & tell people they will get their Tapus, omitting to tell them that they won't get 'proper' tapus/habitation certificates as the properties shouldn't have been put there in the first place. They also omit telling people that possibly their ideally situated property might be bulldosed, if the powers that be, decide in the future that 'tourist land' should go back to having what was intended to be there in the first place - hotels or tourist atractions.
IF you bought off Hanel & they told you the build had permission & was legal then you should go after them. They have a responsibility to you & years back their sales people were telling people that they would buy back properties at the price they sold the properties for.
I know you don't want to lose your beautiful home - who would? BUT if Hanel mislead you then THEY should reimburse you OR sort it out!
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quote:
Originally posted by lindacarl
KKOB - I think it's gone that way because you told us the property was built by Hanel - who ARE notorious for (let's face it!) building where they shouldn't & paying backhanders. They then lie & tell people they will get their Tapus, omitting to tell them that they won't get 'proper' tapus/habitation certificates as the properties shouldn't have been put there in the first place. They also omit telling people that possibly their ideally situated property might be bulldosed, if the powers that be, decide in the future that 'tourist land' should go back to having what was intended to be there in the first place - hotels or tourist atractions.
IF you bought off Hanel & they told you the build had permission & was legal then you should go after them. They have a responsibility to you & years back their sales people were telling people that they would buy back properties at the price they sold the properties for.
I know you don't want to lose your beautiful home - who would? BUT if Hanel mislead you then THEY should reimburse you OR sort it out!
Well said Lindacarl!
I am obviously of the opinion that this issue needs to be sorted asap, the 5th January is only a few days away.
I had no knowledge of any building companies in Turkey but as soon as I started asking questions then Hanel came to the fore as a company known for building on land without legal permission. I also quickly learned about the politics of why this had happened.
I would therefore suggest that, as said above, Hanel should sort this mess out. I realise that there will likely be several companies involved but may I suggest that a two pronged attack is required? One jointly with the other owners affected channeled through the media, local & UK, plus the authorities at Ankara level. The other, a direct claim via a solicitor, against the company who built your house & presumably, who issued your TAPU.
I sincerely hope that this terrible situation gets sorted soon & that you can get back to "normal" living.
Dave
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Representatives from the village have been to Mugla today for a meeting. We'll have more information tomorrow.
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We wait with bated breath for your news. Best wishes.
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Here's a translation of an article that's just appeared in Habeler.com
"Within the Fethiye district of Mugla, in the village of Kaya whose roots go back 5000 years, the owners of 220 houses built without planning permission have been served with demolition orders.
The villagers of Kaya are in shock following the orders. In 1922 as part of the population exchange Greeks living in Kaya village returned to Greece and Turks living in Greece were settled in Kaya. But in order to grow things in the valley the incomers built new houses there and left the old houses on the hill empty. Now it is proposed to create some form of museum within the old empty houses on the hill to capitalise on tourism to the area, and newly built houses in the valley are to be demolished. The orders were served by local Jandarma on behalf of the Governor of Mugla and locals said we have waited for 25 years for a development plan to be agreed for the village in the meantime houses have been built without permission and for that reason out of a total of 250 houses 220 have been served with demolition orders.
To prevent the demolition orders being carried out the Muhtar of Kaya village, Erdogan Kaya and the Muhtar of Keciler village Ercan Gokce have appealed for help from the Governor of Fethiye, Mehmet Ali Karatekeli and the local administration within the governing AK Party.
Karatekeli said that houses had been built without permission because everyone had waited so long for a village plan to be drawn up, and it still hadn't been done.
He went on to say that he was still investigating the background to the demolition orders. Kaya village Muhtar, Erdogan Kaya, in a private session with the press, said he had received assurances from Karatekeli that he would do all in his power to prevent demolition. Kaya said building had been going on continuously for the past twelve years in Kaya village and they were still waiting for the official plan to be put in place. The Ministry of Culture did draw up a development plan for the village 25 years ago, then another, different plan was produced by another Ministry. But a locally agreed development plan is still awaited.
Kaya said the villagers are victims of the lack of an agreed development plan.
Of course they have built houses.
Now you appear out of nowhere, in the winter and say you are going to demolish these houses. 220 householders have suddenly become criminals.
Now the whole village is trying to find a way out.
If you demolish these houses the people living in them with their children will be left out on the mountains.
You say you are going to demolish 12 years worth of building.
We say we demand tents.
But of course no-one can really live in a tent in the winter.
Why has our development plan been delayed for so long? What is really behind all this? We have a right to know.
The two muhtars then proceeded to the office of the AK party where the local leader, having read all the details of the affair, said that he would speak to Ankara."
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flippin heck!!! pass the buck,pass the buck!!!! they need to hurry i think.
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It all sounds like ifs buts and maybe's, hope you get something more positive.
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KKOB - I am really sorry to learn of your plight. I am not sure it helps you if we all get into a blame game. What matters is trying to get the order rescinded. I have never met you but my instincts tell me Turkey is very lucky to have you and your family live there. If you intend to start up a fighting fund let me know I would be pleased to make a small donation. I hope it works out for you. All the best
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Very best of luck to you. You have always been very helpful to us, and if we can be of any help to you, count us in. We bought our properties in Ovacik, and there was a lot of hassle getting tapus back at the beginning, due to the properties being built on touristic land, therefore I too have my concerns, as I did back then. If anybody can supply email addresses, contact numbers etc for us all to petition this and make it known, please supply. Good luck. Sue, Mark, Jo and Paul and families. Oaklands Ovacik.
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Has anything been resolved yet ? What a nightmare for all concerned. Quite often on Turkish news they show the belediye of wherever demolishing illegal builds, usually around the edges of the cities, so this is nothing new. Many of those are really ramshackle hovels and are caught out because they tap in illegally to the electric cables etc. But in Kaya ? Preposterous. Ask the mayor Kerametin, he also knows alot about illegal builds with St Nicholas, there must be loopholes ?! He has a house in Kaya which must therefore also be illegal........
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I'm sure someone has already thought of this but would it be worth contacting the local English written Turkish newspapers (Zaman etc)? Also the Turkish turkish papers if someone speaks/writes Turkish?
I can't help but think it's who you know out here and, of course, money talks. How did the houses be built in the first place. Is there a Kaya belediye? If so were they the ones responsible for issuing the living tapu?
I wish all of the families the very best of luck, I personally would refuse to budge from the house when the bulldozers appeared and make sure the local press were there to witness everything.
Good luck
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Would like to add that if support were needed I would gladly come down on the 5th. Perhaps all the expats could??
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hi its michelle at caspers in kaya there has just ben a meating in kaya at the cay house and ive just been told by the muktar the demolitions are no longer going forward !!!!!!!!!!
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What about fines ?
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not sure ?? also my husband did point out that untill we here from mulga we shoulnt get to relaxed about things !!
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Good point. We've got a feeling too that it ain't just gonna go away.
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:) Just to say, been thinking about you guys all week, hope everything gets sorted for you. ;)
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:) That's good news! At least, a bit of a breather for you all..... [8)]
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Well a "stay of execution" thats gotta be a good sign. Hopefully this will give all you Kaya folk time for more negoations talks etc. Maybe the powers to could formulate THE PLAN FOR KAYA VILLAGE, which WILL INCLUDE HOUSES THAT ARE ALREADY BUILT. Its not as if you are all blots on the landscape!! Just dont get it[?] How long does it take 25years obviously!!!! If it takes another 25years Kaya could then be merged into Hisaranou!!!! and the original planners brown bread.
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Land of lights have published and article
http://www.landoflights.net/haberdetay.asp?id=1276
The last paragraph states only houses under construction are to be demolished.
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Ermmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....................Not quite what we've been told.
From what we understand there are about 10 properties that WILL be demolished because they've been constructed too close to the "Ghost Village", plus 1 that's been built too close to an ancient tomb in Belen.
After the elections in March, we should expect to receive fines which, once paid, will then result in licences being issued and the houses being declared legal.
If that's the case, it should increase the value of properties in the Kaya Valley quite substantially.
Anyway, all that's taken with a very large pinch of salt, and fingers and toes crossed.
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It looks like the authorities are not planning to demolish the existing houses in Kaya Village now so that is great news.
I love Turkey & plan to retire there soon but issues like this are worrying.
The term "using a sledge-hammer to crush a nut" comes to mind, do the people who instigated this instruction have any conception of the amount of grief & stress they have caused to innocent families!
I hope that this is the end of the nightmare situation that the people in Kaya were facing.
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I think my previous posting must have "crossed in the post". So it is not all settled then?
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I hope it's still 'all quiet' for you all at Kaya?
I hear some other areas, have Not been so lucky :-\ 8)
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I feel so sorry for the people across the region for the demolition of homes, some started today and many are on alert, the following link is in Turkish there is a video link at the bottom of the article, this is Datca, Marmaris
http://www.kenttv.net/haber.php?id=10089#
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quote:
Originally posted by albaman
I love Turkey & plan to retire there soon but issues like this are worrying.
The term "using a sledge-hammer to crush a nut" comes to mind, do the people who instigated this instruction have any conception of the amount of grief & stress they have caused to innocent families!
Albaman Turkey, in common with the UK has planning rules and regs. A lot of the 'innocent' families have flaunted these laws and built regardless. Others have bought properties from developers who were fully aware of the lack of building permission but continued anyway and have made a lot of money from it. This is where the blame lies. These purchasers can be considered innocent if they had no knowledge of the situation. This is another case of researching before buying. There are thousands of illegal builds in Mugla alone. Surely you would not advocate the tearing up of the rule books and allowing unplanned building. I seem to remember a planning officer being shot dead in the UK trying to enforce a demolition order.
I understand that my post will upset some of the how-dare-you brigade but I would point out that i have lost a property for the same reason.
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Lucinda makes a fair point but loosing ones house under any circumstances is a tragedy for the persons involved.
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quote:
Originally posted by Lucinda
quote:
Originally posted by albaman
I love Turkey & plan to retire there soon but issues like this are worrying.
The term "using a sledge-hammer to crush a nut" comes to mind, do the people who instigated this instruction have any conception of the amount of grief & stress they have caused to innocent families!
Albaman Turkey, in common with the UK has planning rules and regs. A lot of the 'innocent' families have flaunted these laws and built regardless. Others have bought properties from developers who were fully aware of the lack of building permission but continued anyway and have made a lot of money from it. This is where the blame lies. These purchasers can be considered innocent if they had no knowledge of the situation. This is another case of researching before buying. There are thousands of illegal builds in Mugla alone. Surely you would not advocate the tearing up of the rule books and allowing unplanned building. I seem to remember a planning officer being shot dead in the UK trying to enforce a demolition order.
I understand that my post will upset some of the how-dare-you brigade but I would point out that i have lost a property for the same reason.
I'm sorry to learn that you lost a property Lucinda :(.
I don't think you can compare UK law, with the law in Turkey, especially in property matters.
In the UK, due process would have been followed, very public court hearings, appeals etc, all, before issuing demolition notices. The True perpetrators of these 'crimes' would have been pursued, not, the victims :-\
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quote:
Originally posted by Lucinda
quote:
Originally posted by albaman
I love Turkey & plan to retire there soon but issues like this are worrying.
The term "using a sledge-hammer to crush a nut" comes to mind, do the people who instigated this instruction have any conception of the amount of grief & stress they have caused to innocent families!
Albaman Turkey, in common with the UK has planning rules and regs. A lot of the 'innocent' families have flaunted these laws and built regardless. Others have bought properties from developers who were fully aware of the lack of building permission but continued anyway and have made a lot of money from it. This is where the blame lies. These purchasers can be considered innocent if they had no knowledge of the situation. This is another case of researching before buying. There are thousands of illegal builds in Mugla alone. Surely you would not advocate the tearing up of the rule books and allowing unplanned building. I seem to remember a planning officer being shot dead in the UK trying to enforce a demolition order.
I understand that my post will upset some of the how-dare-you brigade but I would point out that i have lost a property for the same reason.
Lucinda,
I agree that there has to be rules regarding consent for building homes but it appears that there has been a lot of indecision & conflicting advice in Kayakoy from the authorities over a lot of years.
If the authorities had there "finger on the pulse" then the "illegal builds" should have been dealt with years ago, preferably before completion of the homes. For someone in authority to only decide to act when hundreds( thousands?) of "illegal builds" are in existence is very suspect,is there some other motive behind this issue?
If individuals built knowing that they were doing it illegaly then I have only limited sympathy for them, they took the gamble & lost!
If, on the other hand, people innocently bought property from a builder who stated that everything was legal then surely the builder should be made to fully compensate the home owners & should be dealt with by the law.
If deeds (tapus) have been issued to state that these properties are legal & this is not the case then surely whoever was responsible for issuing the papers is guilty of serious fraud & deception?
You state that you have lost a property for the same reason. Do you mean that you built or bought a property that you knew was not legal & therefore accepted that it was a fair thing to lose it? By "lose it" do you mean that it was demolished? I don't want to appear to be picky but think that it is important that you clarify these points.regarding the issue that you raised of your "lost" property .
There is something odd happening when hundreds, possibly thousands, of homes are suddenly under threat. I have my doubts that the right people are being targeted. Individual owners are easy "targets" as they do not have the resources available to deal with these threats.
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quote:
I have my doubts that the right people are being targeted. Individual owners are easy "targets" as they do not have the resources available to deal with these threats
When this situation occurs in England and Wales the Planning Authority will also issue the enforcement notice against the owner.They have to as they have no relationship with anyone else. It is then for the owner to sue the Builder/Architect who has placed them in this position; thats why the latter carry Professional Indemnity Insurance.
There will certainly be a greater period for discussion than appears to be the case here, and if you have a bottomless pocket facility for elongated court procedures.The Planning Authorities here can be quite ruthless particularly where listed buildings, antiquities and areas of special interest are involved.
Its very very sad particularly for those people who trusted their builders and local professionals but I would suggest that "holier than thou" comments will not help the situation.
I would certainly agree with the comments that suggest there may be an underlying political agenda given the upcoming local elections.
I have restricted my comparison comments to England and Wales as the law is somewhat different in Scotland and I do not have a familiarity.
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albaman quite right to throw a light on the fact that many of these homes have been given tapus on which a tax (not neccasarily the right amount) has been paid, also the local authority has taken "rates" in from these properties.
A point to remember is that 1000s of northern based turks have lost their winter jobs in building trade due to slow down on new developments. It might be worth contacting turkish government not in mugla but in anchor ? (sorry bad spelling day) tourist dept, and the office of the prime minister, pointing out that in a world down turn this action would count as an own goal in attracting foriegn investment. best of luck to kkob family and all those effected. a PR campaign may work.
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I know nothing about house purchase in Turkey but assume that a lawyer is involved in the process,so is it not the lawyer's duty to check out all aspects of the purchase on behalf of the buyer?
If the lawyer missed the fact that a building had been erected illegaly surely there has been neglect or other reason on their part making them liable to pay compensation to the buyer.
Or am I wrong?
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As far as I am aware, there has been due process over the last 3 yrs and it is because the due process has ended that the Mugla Governor took to demolishing. The Tapus are for the land only and do not have the houses added I think, which means the taxes and such have not been paid and they probably do not have a habitation certificate. far be it for me to even mention bribes having being paid. The services in some of these houses are not even legal, because some are using water that is meant for watering the land and is not deemed domestic supply, and others are using wells not the council supply. The electric has been put on the land to power the pump for the well and is not domestic supply or is installed for construction and the owners are paying construction rates for electric. How can I know I have not got proper services connected and I know fines have been issued and then be surprised when after the enquiry or whatever that took place came to an end I was told to demolish.
Most people in Turkey do not use a solicitor, that is why a Turk can see a house and have a Tapu in his hand the same morning and if it was not for the military check, so could a foreigner.
If a fine has been incurred then common sense says that a legal problem exists/existed. If you park your car illegally then you get a fine, you do not then think that is ok I will leave my car there now because I have paid my fine. You can by all means listen to people telling you it is ok now and not worry, but it is not and while your car is parked illegally they can keep fining you and eventually tow it away.
In Turkey if you want to challenge something or someone or even the government itself you take them to court and as it takes 3 or 4 years to sort out in court you have a period with nothing happening. If the builders were in fact negligent then the house holders who were fined should have taken the builders to court 3 or more years ago, not wait until now. If I had been fined 3 years ago then I would have had the builder in court asking why he built my property and can I have all money paid to be given back. The reason some people did not is because they bought cheaply and thought once things were sorted then they would make a killing and one of the people that did this and knew that he had bought cheaply is a member of this forum. When I came here a lot of people were saying do not buy in certain areas because the houses were illegal but others were saying that in a few years all will be sorted and the values would rocket and this is the way things are done in turkey so do not worry.
I know this is not a nice thing to say, but people are reading this post and getting the wrong ideas on turkey, because the full story has not been told and if it was then turkey is not as bad as this post suggests. If someone wants to stand up and say that they did not honestly think the house they incurred a fine on was now somehow legal, although they did not have a tapu issued that made them legal by including the house on the tapu and all the services such as water and electricity companies know that you have a domestic supply attached to your house and they are billing you as such, then all so and good.
So if utility companies do not give you supplies because you do not have a habitation certificate, which means your building taxes and things are not in order therefore you are not supposed to habit it, then how can you somehow suggest that what is now happening is a surprise. For those that do not understand the habitation certificate then just do a search on this site for 'habitation certificate' or 'living permission' the living permission or "habitation certificate" is issued on a new build once the property had been passed as habitable by the municipality and it has complied with building control and earthquake regulations.
I am sorry if this offends because I really do not mean it to and tha last thing people in the situation they are want to read this, but you can not go on somehow suggesting that turkey is somehow in the backwards age totally. Turkey is now trying to sort things out with tapu registrations and house purchase laws, but it takes time. The shoddy building contractors and the blatent overlooking of construction rules have been tightened already and are being enforced more and more. Rome was not built in a day so to speak.
I have to ask if a Tapu is isued to an illegal house by the government and someone or other buys it afterwards, then finds out it breaches construction rules because it is built dangerously or does not conform to earthquake regulations, will they still be happy that a tapu was issued, because lets face it if a tapu is issued to some of the houses that are built illegally in turkey, then the day after they will be on the market and sold as quick as the owner can do so and quite a lot would not be a good buy. The new owners would be then on forums saying how dodgy tapus were given out to illegal builds as a political excercise or whatever and they now had homes they wished they had not bought and the tapus should never have been issued to illegal homes, not necessarily my thoughts but how can the government win and it would also set a presedent for other illegal buildings, or I should say unapproved buildings.
Lucinda makes a good point and I would say to Twin Bee that I agree 'Lucinda makes a fair point but loosing ones house under any circumstances is a tragedy for the persons involved' but sometimes the circumstances protect a person from buying the illegal house in the future. albaman says 'If deeds (tapus) have been issued to state that these properties are legal & this is not the case then surely whoever was responsible for issuing the papers is guilty of serious fraud & deception?' The tapus do not state anything is legal they state that you have title to the land and if it has a dwelling on it then the dwelling is included, if it has a dwelling on the land and the tapu only says land then make your own conclusions and find out why the house is not included. Turkey does have a council office and land registry office where you can ask questions before you purchase or it you have issued a power of attorney the person holding that power could have asked for you. Houses here are taxed like in the uk, even though it does not amount to a great deal so a visit to the belediye and a few questions would highlight problems. What people seem to miss is that in the uk you pay for searches etc before you buy, you have a solicitor in uk normally, so why not do the searches here even though it is not obligatory and get a solicitor even though that is not obligatory. I am not about to sit here defending turkey because a lot needs to be done but a lot of information has been available locally about areas with no permissions for a very long time.
John H you are only wrong because you assumed wrong and is largely the problem because people come here and just assume something without checking, but I am not meaning that to be insulting to you because I presume you have not bought here by what you said. I think scunner has said a lot of advice amongst others and given warnings about the buying process and may be one of the reasons he started this forum, I do not know, but it is there. I do not normally post in forums I just read them but I felt I had to post this because what is being expressed by some is not the correct situation and people in other countries will read it and think 'oh my god, I will never buy there' even though I know there are horror stories on here there are horror stories about a lot of countries including uk.
I will say to the original poster and others affected that I most sincerely hope things work out for you because I for one will be sad if demolitions do take place, not only for you but family members as well and hope that inspections can take place to make sure that your houses were built to a safe standard and such then issue tapus so that whoever buys from you eventually will know the building is safe and complies to whatever building regulations. I will also say I do not know the situation of how the original poster bought his property or what knowledge he had when he bought, so my words are not aimed at him or any one person.
Good luck to you all and hopefully 2009 is the year you can all relax and enjoy your home and surroundings without worry.
Sorry if this is a bit long.
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Turkce,
Thanks for taking the time to write such an illuminating post.
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Yes thanks from me too. Lots to ponder on and very balanced and fair I think about issues of general concern. Whether they are relevant to KKOB situation only he will know!
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I'd like to thank all of those who posted and emailed with words of support and offers of help. I started the thread mainly to bring to the attention of the "outside world" actions that were going to have repercussions affecting several hundred people in the Kaya Valley and possibly countless thousands in Mugla Province.
It's been obvious by some of the posts that there are individuals who THINK they know the ins and outs of what's gone on over the years.
Suffice to say, when we purchased the land and had the house built we took advice and recommendations from a number of sources both amateur and professional. We were assured that everything was being done legally.
Now that the threat of demolitions has been lifted in the Kaya Valley I'd like one of the Moderators to lock this thread if possible.
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Not sure I agree with locking this topic, it seems to be quite a controlled debate with possibly more questions to be asked of the authorities, but as it's you.