Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 79203 times)

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Offline villain

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #290 on: November 27, 2018, 14:28:20 PM »
You mean giving up all that sovereignty that Farridge and Co. said we didn't have?

I think we'd better call the whole thing off, don't you reckon?



Offline LindseyMitchell

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #291 on: November 27, 2018, 18:29:33 PM »
Absolutely Villain.
Just seen Farage on the news, who actually believes that Trump is very pro Britain, and that risking having no trade deal would be disastrous.  The man is either stupid, deluded, or both.
1Calis just stated that one of the downsides of May’s deal is ‘we will not have any say in anything the EU decides’. 
So on the one hand, we have the EU as an undemocratic organisation, and on the other, we bemoan the fact that after Brexit, we will have no say in their deliberations.  Surely both can’t be true.
Apart from lightbulbs, can anyone list the upsides of Brexit, because I can’t think of a single one.

Offline villain

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #292 on: November 28, 2018, 15:25:01 PM »
*lightbulbs*

lol.

Meanwhile, on planet Earth...from that famously lefty rag The Economist:

The british body politic is again convulsing. Theresa May has appointed new ministers, including her third Brexit secretary and counting, following another round of cabinet resignations. The prime minister’s own backbenchers are feverishly (if ineptly) plotting to bring her down. The Labour opposition’s position is hopelessly unclear. The cause of this chaos is that those with long-standing delusions about what Brexit would mean have been forced to swallow a dose of reality.

With negotiating time almost up, Britain has the imperfect deal that it was always going to get. Promises of having cake and eating it have given way to a less appetising offering. Yet among Brexiteers, one hopeful fantasy lives on: the idea that, if all else fails, Britain can prosper outside the European Union without signing a deal at all. The idea’s proponents tout a no-deal Brexit as a way to avoid giving ground, or money, to Brussels. They dismiss objections as another round of the alarmist “Project Fear” that Remainers deployed before the referendum.

They are gravely mistaken. It is time to debunk the last, and most dangerous, of the Brexit fantasies.

The notion that Britain should leave the eu without agreeing on exit terms or paying its tab has gained currency. Perhaps two dozen Tory mps want such an outcome, now that a cake-and-eat-it deal is off the menu. Given the government’s wafer-thin majority, this small band has undue clout (see article). Assurances by level-headed ministers that Parliament would block a no-deal exit are constitutionally questionable. The public, meanwhile, are worryingly relaxed about no deal. Polls find that many voters would rather do a runner from the eu than accept the compromise that Mrs May has struck.

The reality is that no deal amounts to a very bad deal, as our briefing this week spells out. It would rip up 45 years of arrangements with the continent that in living memory has gone from existential threat to vital ally. It would swap membership of the eu’s single market for the most bare-bones trading relationship possible. Reneging on £39bn ($50bn) in obligations to the eu would devastate Britain’s international credibility. Reaching no deal on the Irish border would test the Good Friday Agreement that ended a serious armed conflict. And the violent dislocation of nearly every legal arrangement between Britain and Europe would affect daily life like nothing outside wartime.

The myth has taken hold that no deal simply means no trade deal. Proponents of a no-deal exit say it will involve Britain trading with the eu on the standard terms used by other members of the World Trade Organisation (wto). No-dealers argue, correctly, that Britain could eventually adjust to this. It would be painful, but the economy could move beyond industries like carmaking, which would be ruined by the 10% tariffs that the eu would impose on British exports. Consumers would gain if the government took the highly unlikely step of abolishing all tariffs, as no-dealer economists recommend. But protected sectors, particularly agriculture, would wither. And many Leave-voters might be surprised that the price of exit was the collapse of much of Britain’s high-end manufacturing and the demise of farming.

More important, no deal would mean not just no trade deal, but the rupture of a whole corpus of legal arrangements with the eu. Britain would be left without rules to govern the trade in radioactive materials, international electricity markets, financial-contract clearing, aviation, medicines regulation, immigration control and much else. What some Brexiteers describe as a “clean break” from Europe would in fact be horrifically messy.

No-deal proponents counter that Britain and the eu would quickly sign side-deals to mitigate the worst of the chaos—allowing flights to carry stranded citizens home, for instance. But it is unlikely that the eu would do more than the minimum if Britain defaults on its debts. What little goodwill remains would turn to dust. Brexiteers say that shortages could be avoided if Britain threw its borders open to eu products without checks. But eschewing any sort of regulation would be an odd way for Britain to “take back control”, as the Leave campaign promised.

If Mrs May wonders how this dire outcome has come to be more popular than her hard-won deal, she should start by re-reading her own speeches. Her mantra that “no deal is better than a bad deal” was supposed to persuade the eu to give Britain better terms. It didn’t work. But it struck a chord at home. David Davis, her first Brexit secretary, compared the talks to buying a house: “You don’t walk in and say, ‘I’m going to buy the house, now what’s the price?’ So why should it be any different in a big negotiation like this?” The answer is that not buying a house means sticking with the status quo, whereas not signing a Brexit deal means swapping the status quo for a new, very bad alternative. The house-buying analogy works only if the buyer has burned down their existing home and is negotiating to buy the only one on the market.

Advocates of no deal brim with the same misplaced confidence with which they approached the Brexit talks. The grim warnings of what would happen after the referendum have turned out to be overblown, they point out. Britain has not fallen into recession, as Remainers forecast, though its performance relative to other advanced economies has declined. Might the impact of no deal turn out to be less bad than feared?

Perhaps. But the disruption caused by an unmediated exit would be far more dramatic than the economic harm caused by the Brexit vote. The public cannot easily see what they have lost as a result of Britain’s slip from being the fastest-growing member of the g7 to one of the slowest. A no-deal Brexit, by contrast, could have highly visible effects. Essentials drying up, travellers stranded, motorways gridlocked: these things bring down governments and undermine faith in democratic politics. In 2000 Tony Blair’s administration was plunged into crisis when protesting lorry-drivers blockaded oil refineries. The protests lasted barely a week but still forced supermarkets to ration bread and milk, and the government to deploy army ambulances.

It is hard to imagine any government surviving the chaos of a no-deal Brexit, let alone one as weak as Mrs May’s. So far the decision to quit the eu has slowed Britain down, rather than derailing it. Leaving with no deal, however, could result in a wreck.


Offline stoop

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #293 on: November 28, 2018, 17:56:56 PM »
..and when your kids and grandkids get conscripted into the EU Army which we were told would never happen.......

Brexit scaremongering they said.


Offline LindseyMitchell

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #294 on: November 28, 2018, 18:12:41 PM »
Wars with traditional infantry are, I think, a thing of the past.

I think an EU Army would be a terrific thing;  we already work closely with the armed forces of our European neighbours, so why not join forces.  It seems ridiculous that a small, insignificant country like ours should go it alone, defence wise.  Bigger is better, as far as defence is concerned.

I also wish that we would stick to defence, instead of offence;  the troops in Afghanistan are not defending us. 

Problem is, the dinosaurs still look back to the forties and persist with their distrust and suspicion of France and Germany.

Offline Highlander

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #295 on: November 28, 2018, 19:43:02 PM »
It seems ridiculous that a small, insignificant country like ours should go it alone, defence wise.  Bigger is better, as far as defence is concerned.

NATO ?

Offline LindseyMitchell

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #296 on: November 28, 2018, 23:07:44 PM »
Trump doesn’t seem too keen on NATO, does he.

Us having armed forces within Europe is rather like, say, Hawaii having their own defence force when they’re part of America,

Offline Highlander

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #297 on: November 28, 2018, 23:17:33 PM »
It seems ridiculous that a small, insignificant country like ours should go it alone, defence wise.  Bigger is better, as far as defence is concerned.

With respect, I'll try again - do you believe we are alone, defence wise.

Offline LindseyMitchell

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #298 on: November 29, 2018, 08:28:45 AM »
Tricky thing, defence.
I would define it as protecting our country and it’s citizens from invasion or attack from a foreign power or persons acting alone.
In the extremely unlikely event of our country being invaded, I believe our European neighbours would step in, much as we did in France, not so much for altruistic reasons, but because the invaders may pose a threat to them too.  I think America would hesitate as they did in the 1940s.
The recent bombing of and attacks on Middle Eastern countries were in no way to protect us from invasion, and our casual stance on civilian casualties (civilian deaths in this region can be counted in six figures) I believe has made attacks by persons acting alone more likely.
We spend a lot of money on defence (offence) and I believe pooling our resources with EU countries would mean we were a real force to be reckoned with in the world, and save us millions of pounds into the bargain.

Offline villain

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #299 on: November 29, 2018, 11:15:01 AM »
..and when your kids and grandkids get conscripted into the EU Army which we were told would never happen.......


Got any facts to back that up? Try these:

https://fullfact.org/europe/hunt-eu-army/

Turns out that the best way to achieve an "EU army" (your description, not mine), would actually be for the UK to leave the EU, where we have a veto on such a thing. So...

Q. What would be worse than an EU army?

A. Facilitating the creation of an EU Army that the UK wouldn't actually be in.




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