Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
General Topics => The Debating Chamber => Topic started by: johntaylor49 on January 25, 2014, 12:45:28 PM
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If a referendum was held to ask for an extra penny in the pound Income Tax to basic rate payers, and 2 pence to higher income payers for a parliamentary term to fund a massive Prison Building program and additional Policing with tougher sentencing what do you think would be the result? Would the British people rather have more and better prisons or more criminals let off because the prison system is not adequate? Would they be prepared to pay?
Could Prisoners do work of a nature that could pay for their keep?
Answers on a postcard that will fit through the bars --
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The local council here in Wrexham have just granted permission for the construction of a new prison. Already the NIMBYs (many of whom don't live within 10 miles of the site) have started campaigning against it.
I was brought-up near Maidstone Prison in the 50s, 60s and 70s and everyday there used to be workpartys of prisoners going out to do maintenance work on buildings, parks, gardens etc in the area. It was all brought to a halt because of the reduction in staff at the prison.
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How about a penny more tax per pound and make life mean life. I'm in.
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I would much rather they re allocate funds they have earmarked for things like aid for India when they have a space program or some of the funds we pay for Europe than just be taxed extra. I have no faith that the extra taxes would be used to fund what we are led to believe.
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The UK already has more of its population in prison than any other country in Western Europe and has done so for decades. Why the hell should I pay 5% more tax to lock even more people away? Are we trying to get up to US levels of imprisonment? That will be good won't it? We'll be just as safe and law-abiding as they are.
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I would pay tuppence extra in Income Tax if they brought back capital punishment and the birch and hard labour and gave criminals meaningful sentences. Oh yes, and made sure that their "Human Rights" were well violated!!!
TC >:( >:(
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We are having a new Prison built in Peterhead. It's a shame for the people who had lovely views of the sea as now they can only see a Prison, it has devalued their houses by 40% but, they will receive no compensation.
The other thing that has made people in Peterhead mad is, the Priisoners in the old Prison complained last year that the sun was shining through their cell windows and waking them up in the morning. So, they were provided with blinds for every cell,at a cost of thousands of pounds even though the blinds will be useless in a few months time. >:( :o
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A case in the news yesterday.
A man built up a landscaping business and employs 6 people.In the last few years his
premises have been broken into and he has had £18,000 of goods stolen.Last year he
caught two men breaking in.One of them attacked him with a wooden fencing post,he
fought back and one suffered two broken legs and a broken arm.He caught the other
one and sat on him until the police arrived.The thieves were later fined £75 each.
The businessman was locked up for 18 hours,charged with assault,made 5 appearances
in court and yesterday his trial took place.The jury took 20 minutes to throw the case out.
The police and prosecutors should now be put on trial. A total disgrace.
Colwyn.
What is your alternative to locking criminals up.
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Colwyn.
What is your alternative to locking criminals up.
Make 'em live in Bristol? :)
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That's a bit harsh isn't it.!
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The overall crime rate in the UK is the lowest it has ever been since recording began in the early 1980s. (I realize some people hate good news and point-blank refuse to believe it ("It's statistics) but frankly I can't be bothered with such drivel.) So what's the big problem? Too many people reading the Daily Mail I reckon.
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But do you know how they've come up with those figures ?
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Yes.
But if you don't here is a simple introduction.
The Crime Survey for England and Wales measures the extent of crime in England and Wales by asking people whether they have experienced any crime in the past year.
The survey has measured crime in this way since 1982 and is a valuable source of information for the government about the extent and nature of crime in England and Wales. The Crime Survey for England and Wales is the new name for the British Crime Survey. A separate survey (the Scottish Crime and Justice survey) measures the extent of crime in Scotland. The survey is conducted by TNS-BMRB on behalf of the Office for National Statistics.
The Crime Survey records crimes that may not have been reported to the police and it is therefore used alongside the police recorded crime figures to show a more accurate picture of the level of crime in the country.
In 2012/13 around 50,000 households across England and Wales were invited to participate in the survey. Three quarters of households invited to take part actually did so and it is thanks to this cooperation from the public that the survey can provide the robust information needed by government to understand the nature of crime in this country.
This website contains more information about the survey for people who have been invited to take part.
(http://www.crimesurvey.co.uk/images/cs-logo.gif)
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Hang 'em High!!!
As for surveys!!!! There are lies, damned lies and then there are Statistics.
Being an ex-civil servant (based in Bristol), with experience of making the "facts" fit, believe me.........
TC >:( >:( >:( >:(
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But if you don't here is a simple introduction.
Oh, I know how and why the figures were made up compiled. ;)
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Yeah, yeah, very convincing. When questioned thousands of people who had their cars stolen, houses broken into, daughters raped, etc lied and said that they had suffered no crime. And the moon is made of green cheese. And astronauts never landed on it. You wouldn't be DM readers would you?
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Colwyn - just one question from me. Do you think life should mean life?
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Yeah, yeah, very convincing. When questioned thousands of people who had their cars stolen, houses broken into, daughters raped, etc lied and said that they had suffered no crime. And the moon is made of green cheese. And astronauts never landed on it. You wouldn't be DM readers would you?
So, you obviously have a problem with anyone who disagrees with you by accusing them of being a "DM" reader. Get a life Colwyn, y'know, other people do have a right to express their opinion without having someone "labelling" them to make himself seem more important or to have himself feel good, about himself.
But of course, you will obviously have some "witty" repost
TC
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Part of having a debating chamber is to allow adults to argue and disagree in a respectful way TC, I may be alone but I don't think telling people to "get a life" fits in with that.
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Stuff the figures lock them all up I'll pay a Penney in the pound.
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Colwyn - just one question from me. Do you think life should mean life?
[I thought I replied just after you posted this but obviously I didn't complete the job properly].
In the most extreme of cases, the most appalling of crimes, I absolutely agree that people should face a whole life sentence. And the European Court of Human Rights agrees with me. I think the legislature/judiciary representing 30 years as a "life sentence" is ridiculous and brings the law into disrepute. Sentencing should be open (which I think it is) and also transparent (which I don't think it is) and life should mean life.
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other people do have a right to express their opinion
Yes, you're right I was a bit snappy. Not necessary
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Mr Scunner,
Part of having a debating chamber is to allow adults to argue and disagree in a respectful way TC, I may be alone but I don't think telling people to "get a life" fits in with that.
I wholeheartedly agree and would apologise to Colwyn for this remark if it caused offence, however, I do no do so for everything I remarked upon.
TC
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But Tuzlachap the question is...are you a DM reader??? >:( :o >:(
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I would much rather they re allocate funds they have earmarked for things like aid for India when they have a space program or some of the funds we pay for Europe than just be taxed extra. I have no faith that the extra taxes would be used to fund what we are led to believe.
Well said. Get our own house in order first.
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Pete16
DM reader?? yes I am. :-[ :P :-[ :P :-[ :P
TC 8) 8) (despite the rain)
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I was brought-up near Maidstone Prison in the 50s, 60s and 70s and everyday there used to be workpartys of prisoners going out to do maintenance work on buildings, parks, gardens etc in the area. It was all brought to a halt because of the reduction in staff at the prison.
I lived from the early 50's to the early 90's in Rochester, near Maidstone. Rochester was the location of the first UK Borstal and every weekday without fail during the 50's, 60's & 70's there would be work parties from the Prison active in the area such as clearing the roads & paths of snow, tending to grass verges etc. there was a farm connected to the prison on which those 'Borstal Boys' interested were taught the rudiments of animal welfare etc. Sadly, as KKOB said, due to staff reductions these activities ceased, the farmland was sold & housing built. 2 doors from us lived one of the prison officers based at the Borstal and he used to tell us about some of the earlier boys incarcerated there and how many of them turned their lives around after a spell there, he said it changed so much and the attitude of the inmates deteriorated after the changes.
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This seems like a good idea to me. The article is old but I'm fairly sure it hasn't changed much.Sorry couldn't seem to copy the link. :-[
TURKEY
Open prison in Dalaman making big profits
MUĞLA – Doğan News Agency | 12/5/2007 12:00:00 AM | Mustafa SARIiPEK
An open prison near the Aegean town of Dalaman has started earning big profits. Dalaman Open Prison, which undertakes agriculture-related activities in the Aegean town of Dalaman, made
An open prison near the Aegean town of Dalaman has started earning big profits.
Dalaman Open Prison, which undertakes agriculture-related activities in the Aegean town of Dalaman, made YTL 2.5 million in revenue and YTL 641,000 net profit in the last 10 months.
This year it plans to make YTL 3 million in revenue and a net profit of YTL 800,000.
There are 150 insured prisoners out of a total of 245 in the prison, which was established on a plot spanning 3,600 square meters in 1942.
The prisoners feed 178 big cattle, 478 small cattle, and 78,560 poultry, as well as produce 200 tons of citrus fruits, 540 tons of wheat, and 210 tons of maize annually.
They bake 1,000 loaves of breads in a day. There are also workshops such as carpentry, restaurant management, construction, and aluminum works.
The number of productive and corrective prisons like Dalaman should be increased in the process of the legislative system's modernization, said Akif Celalettin Şimşek, chief prosecutor of the town of Fethiye.
Prisons should be places where people take up a profession and are rehabilitated, he said. This system will also help prisoners when they finish serving their prison term, since they learn a profession so they can adapt to life outside prison more easily.
As the number and variety of the professions increases, its contribution to the state budget will increase too, said Şimşek.
The prisoners are also glad to work where 150 insured prisoners earn YTL 90 a month and a bonus once a year. They can make unregistered telephone calls during working hours and they have five days vacation, the frequency of which depends on their total punishment.
Recep Gökmen, 52, one of the prisoners, said he is happy to work as a farmer where he learns a job and contributes to the states' interests.
ilyas Kayahan, 54, another prisoner, said his life in prison is better than life outside, because he drives a tractor and does husbandry. Some customers of the prison restaurant said the menu is great.
The prison also has a football team, and a theater group where social life is supported by sports and art activities.
The prison's social activity expert, Sibel Ok, said the prisoners have performed plays in several prisons and were appreciated. They are close to professional actors, said Ok.
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Lotty, it's nothing new to the UK. There were a number of prisons and borstals that used to be run in this way but many were affected by the staff cuts, health and safety legislation, human rights laws etc etc
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Looks good to me Lotty, maybe the UK should take a step back in time 8)
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Phew, I had a feeling this topic might raise some interest but never expected such a response!
So many views, and yes of course I had strong feelings about it.
Prison should be more about rehabilitation than just punishment but very much on an iron fist and velvet glove understanding, and it can work for many. (Living proof is Australia --- you didn't get sent there for stealing a loaf of bread because you were hungry as Australians like to pretend --- you were a repeat offender -- excellent book "The Fatal Shore" about the real Penal Colony! Most people in our prisons do come from underprivileged or corrupting backgrounds but that doesn't mean that minor criminals cant be rehabilitated. We haver heard references to Borstal Boys doing well etc. (as a young soldier my Drill Sergeant had joined the Army from Borstal) and there were 5 boys from approved schools in my Company. But the understaffing and overcrowding mean that minor offenders are locked up most of the time with hardened criminals which is no place for rehabilitation.
Perhaps the Dalaman model could mean we don't have to fund the extra Tax for long which is why I thought of one parliamentary term.
Interesting the thoughts on the death penalty, I have always felt we would never get a referendum on that as no Government wants to be known as the one that restored it, and because every Government knows it would be a resounding "Yes" Vote!
Life means Life, and death for heinous crimes that could not possibly involve miscarriage of justice or insanity? Wish I knew how to set up a "vote" here -- be interesting to see the result as our own little opinion poll --- anyone every been "polled" by the way? I have only ever been asked about my views on the BBC Radio :) I never believe any polls personally, they ask 2500 people in Surrey and say its the view of a Country of over 50 Million!
John
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I cannot stand the thought of my hard earned taxes going into such a failed scheme as the British Prison service, particularly the privatised one. Does Prison work? I.e does it stop people from reoffending once they get out..no it does not, at least in the majority of cases of ex offenders. So come up with a workable alternative and I will listen, but methinks some people want offenders sent to prison for punishment, not as a punishment in itself.... Which is why they are so frustrated by the whole thing anyway.
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I never believe any polls personally, they ask 2500 people in Surrey and say its the view of a Country of over 50 Million
Any polling company that did that wouldn't stay in business very long. Which is why they don't do it.
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Yes.
But if you don't here is a simple introduction.
The Crime Survey for England and Wales measures the extent of crime in England and Wales by asking people whether they have experienced any crime in the past year.
The survey has measured crime in this way since 1982 and is a valuable source of information for the government about the extent and nature of crime in England and Wales. The Crime Survey for England and Wales is the new name for the British Crime Survey. A separate survey (the Scottish Crime and Justice survey) measures the extent of crime in Scotland. The survey is conducted by TNS-BMRB on behalf of the Office for National Statistics.
The Crime Survey records crimes that may not have been reported to the police and it is therefore used alongside the police recorded crime figures to show a more accurate picture of the level of crime in the country.
In 2012/13 around 50,000 households across England and Wales were invited to participate in the survey. Three quarters of households invited to take part actually did so and it is thanks to this cooperation from the public that the survey can provide the robust information needed by government to understand the nature of crime in this country.
This website contains more information about the survey for people who have been invited to take part.
(http://www.crimesurvey.co.uk/images/cs-logo.gif)
What poll is any use if it does not include Scotland?...England and Wales pah !!!
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I believe Scotland has a different legal system. At least so the people that live there tell me - time and again, and again, and again, and ........................
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What's the use of a poll that invites 55,000 households in England and Wales to take part, and then when just three quarters of them do, they call it a Crime Survey for England and Wales ? At a rough guess I'd say that the households polled constitute less than half a percent of the population.
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It wouldn't matter if they polled the entire population some people still wouldn't believe the results if they went against their prejudices. I can hear them now bleating "It was a rigged question! They asked people at the wrong time of day! People didn't understand the survey!".
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So Colwyn, do you believe the figures ?
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Surveys are not a matter for belief, that's for religion. If you mean do these figures give a reasonably accurate indication of what is happening to crime in this country - yes I think so. 55,000 is a huge sample population and 75% is a great response rate (any commercial pollster would your arm off for that all the time). The questions are reasonably factual: they are about things that actually happened and people tend to know when they've been robbed, beaten up, and so on - we are not dealing with dodgy matters of opinion. And these surveys have been conducted for over 30 year so I think people know what they are doing with them. I think the survey is very important since it can be compared with the police-reported figures on crime which are, at best, dubious. It may also curb the more extreme of police reporting malpractice. Without the Crime Survey we would have just the police reports to inform us of what is going on. Oh, and the "news" in the Daily Mail and what our mates said down the pub.
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Or of course there could be the view that no matter how suspicious the results looked people could believe them because of their prejudices?? I don't think that anyone has any faith in any figures from any Government any more :)
Scotland is an interesting point Jacqui, as yes the Legal System is different and many would argue better. ( I saw for myself how good the Education system was as all my Grandchildren jumped a grade when they moved from Edinburgh to Chester!) I have always loved the verdicts, Guilty, Innocent and NOT PROVEN! I love that, everyone knows you did it but we cant prove it! I remember Lord Denning (former Master of the Rolls -- the most senior Judge), in saying that he was opposed to sentencing rules being subject to offences and government rules, as he felt his job was to see that Justice was done, and that isn't possible when you cant give a lenient judgement or a very harsh one based on the crime and evidence.
But Justice having been done, if it has, then do we want to reform the Prison System, and if we do, are we willing to pay for it? Perhaps the reason we lock up more people than anyone else in Europe stems from the fact we are the most badly behaved, dishonest Country in Europe, and our system creates hardened criminals rather than rehabilitating the minor offender? Perhaps our Prisons should advertise like Universities do, (those colleges of Further Education and Polytechnics that call themselves that these days), only instead of "the best for Physics" it could be "Where housebreaking is an Art"??
A lot of interesting views, shall we have a Poll?? :) 1st Baron of Wem excluded for Voting of course!
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Yes education is better in Scotland. I found this out when I had a job in the local school and any children coming up from England had to be moved down a couple of classes as our kids where way ahead.
Also Scottish qualifications seemed to be well accepted and welcomed at English Universities. We discovered this when my daughter applied to go to Uni in England.
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I may be wrong but I also believe a much smaller percentage of people go to University in Scotland but take the route of work and combined study?
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Perhaps my last comment is "not proven" :)
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shall we have a Poll??
Why are you calling for a poll when you don't believe them?