Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
Calis Beach Forum => Hotels, Private Rentals in Calis - Questions and Information => Topic started by: Scunner on September 16, 2017, 16:10:10 PM
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I understand a British property owner in Calis has been served with a 20,000TL fine for renting out to holidaymakers without registering the property.
More importantly possibly, the renters were allowed to stay, but only because they could show they only had a few days of their holiday left -
by showing their return flight booking details. The police confirmed that had it been at the beginning of the holiday, they would have been evicted.
So those who believe nothing will happen to them if they don't register, need to rethink. And people who innocently book a private apartment/villa need to see evidence it is registered or they could find themselves out on the street.
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If it wasn't for this forum and a few FB groups, how would holiday-makers know this? There is nothing on Owners Direct, Holiday lettings etc that I have seen and that's where a lot of people head when looking for villas and apartments to rent.
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It is a tricky situation and sites like Owners Direct etc probably don't know about it and it wouldn't particularly concern them either. There is certainly not anything to stop people claiming they are fully registered with the authorities when they are not, and this could lead to innocent renters being turfed out.
I am asking whether there is something (a certificate, form, paper) people can ask to see that proves the property is registered before they book as I don't have any involvement with property in Turkey these days.
I will of course add any new information here.
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Not naming anywhere as it is now history but recently spent a month in Calis in a commercial ( Not Private) rented apartment where we were certainly not registered and in fact for the whole period were never even asked for our passports !
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I'm sure,but cannot prove,our Turkish/German house owner neighbors are renting out their properties without being registered.
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You can let the taxman prove it George :)
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They were very lucky to have been allowed to stay. As I've mentioned before, when an illegal rental is closed down in Istanbul everyone has to leave the property.
Andalucia isn't much different, except the fines are higher - potentially up to €180,000!
JF
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There is a paper the owners are issued with when they register with the police apparently - I am trying to find out what it is called so potential rentees can ask to see it.
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This was always going to be a nightmare. Ill thought out with too many people saying too many different things. Trying to get an official answer is impossible.
It's just another nail in the coffin as far as Turkey is concerned but I guess they will be happy with busier hotels and cheaper houses for sale!
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It certainly makes it more difficult but owners should be registered with the tax office anyway if they are renting out - and registering with the police is a far easier process than that. Then let your property management co look after everything.
The bigger nail coming towards the coffin will be the Daily Mail stories of innocent Brits being slung out by Turkish police. That will put many off holidaying in Turkey, even those considering a hotel.
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It certainly makes it more difficult but owners should be registered with the tax office anyway if they are renting out - and registering with the police is a far easier process than that. Then let your property management co look after everything.
The bigger nail coming towards the coffin will be the Daily Mail stories of innocent Brits being slung out by Turkish police. That will put many off holidaying in Turkey, even those considering a hotel.
That's OK but if you only let family stay then it's a lot of work for the owner... and yes I agree that if and when the press get hold of these stories then it will be yet another, bigger nail in the coffin.
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..and it's not only Turkey:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/839398/Spain-home-fine-British-holiday-rent-nightmare
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Yet I can still find info like this dated this month on google:
http://www.oceanwideproperties.co.uk/faqs-renting-property-turkey/
Answering the question about letting family and friends stay for free:
"No. Only paying guests need to be declared. Owners letting friends and family stay for holidays for free do not need to form a business, inform authorities or be part of the system."
"These procedures apply to those renting their property on a short term basis to paying guests only (e.g. holidaymakers). In short, you have three options; use an agent (the easiest and most straightforward way), set up a limited company or, if you have Turkish citizenship or a work permit, operate under a B&B license."
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Mrs Scorcher here - when we renewed our Intasure insurance we had an email from them alerting us to the new regulations. I also had a call from Owners Direct this week asking me when we were going to resurrect our advert - we suspended all advertising this year because of not dealing with the new regs. Owners Direct said to me that we could not start advertising again until we were legally registered. we are about to do this through property4saleturkey.com who have been hugely helpful and made things very clear for us.
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Thanks Mrs Scorcher - how will Owners Direct know you have registered? Have they asked you to show them a document or anything?
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well they didn't say anything like that - and it's a moot point. I guess they won't want the responsibility. I will have that conversation with them when we resurrect our advert. In any case the process is that we will effectively sublet our property to property4saleturkey.com, they take it under their wing and register it for us, thus avoiding any need for us to set up a company. they handle the tax, KDV etc. We do the ads, collect the rents, provide them with lists/details of renters and rents etc.
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Yet I can still find info like this dated this month on google:
http://www.oceanwideproperties.co.uk/faqs-renting-property-turkey/
Answering the question about letting family and friends stay for free:
"No. Only paying guests need to be declared. Owners letting friends and family stay for holidays for free do not need to form a business, inform authorities or be part of the system."
Still doesn't answer, as in our case, how we're meant to prove that Sian's true aunt is staying without a rental being charged. Especially, due to marriages and re-marriages, she is four surnames away from ours.
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Yet I can still find info like this dated this month on google:
http://www.oceanwideproperties.co.uk/faqs-renting-property-turkey/
Answering the question about letting family and friends stay for free:
"No. Only paying guests need to be declared. Owners letting friends and family stay for holidays for free do not need to form a business, inform authorities or be part of the system."
Still doesn't answer, as in our case, how we're meant to prove that Sian's true aunt is staying without a rental being charged. Especially, due to marriages and re-marriages, she is four surnames away from ours.
She would come under friends then surely?
The hard part is proving she doesn't pay. How do you provide proof of no income from a person staying in your home? Impossible.
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Back to what to ask an owner for evidence of. Thanks to Inspector and Cenk from Interturk for their advice.
1. Tax Registration - called VERGI LEVHASI - they need one, it will have those words and look something like this
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170917/5ccbd193aab77f647f8d257a20155349.jpg)
2. There is no form or similar from the police to confirm registration. Owners can take a screenshot of the completed registration and I have asked if an example would be possible to post here.
But the taxman will also have you thrown out if they find you renting a property that the owner hasn't registered so ensure you see the Vergi Levhasi or don't book.
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Many thanks to Cenk again - below is an example with English translations
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170918/c3dd18ff92b84fa5c050f28d90cca89a.jpg)
Name of Property can be whatever the owners call the villa/apartment
Type of business should read exactly as the example.
No form, no book :)
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We have had friends and family stay at our Apartment since July when we registered and not once have they been asked(by police) where they are staying or anyone came to Apartment to check our registered friends were who we said they were. I thought at least if you registered them then you may get a visit to check.
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When we rented houses or apartments in America a copy of the licence to let the property was displayed on the wall near the front door alongside any rules or regulations applying to the property.
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20 000 Lira fine is for not to register Police ID report system and enter the short term guests.
Police will send file to tax office and tax officers will fine them too (If this is a short term commercial rent)
As Scunner point out you must be sure about registration to police.
There is no licance or certificate showing registration to police yet,but you can ask screen shot of police ID report system.
On Id report system address of short term rental property can be seen.
Here is the ID report system KBS(Kimlik Bildirme sistemi) screen photo sample
(https://s26.postimg.org/q3xz10o45/IMG-20170919-_WA0005.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/q3xz10o45/)
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That's a really good point Inspector - for owners who rent out unregistered - 20,000TL is one hell of a fine from the police but that's just round one. They will then pass all details to the Tax Office and they will fine the owners a second time for non payment of tax on rental incomes and the 20k might well be the smaller one.
Fear the police, but fear the taxman more :o
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Stoop - As far as I can make out.
You can let family and friends stay without declaring them IF you are staying in the property with them only....
If you are not living in the property, then I believe you need to declare them.
We have just bought property and wanted friends and family to have the use of the villa too (without us there) but it won't be able to happen with the new regulations.
I read the 2nd link re the estate agent but I don't think any estate agent would promote when trying to sell a house that friends and family will need to be declared daily if you are not staying in the property. It would not be good for sales!
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is it possible to have someone (family or friends who stay at your place on a regular basis) added to your tapu but have their share of the building set out as a very small precentage say 0.5%. In that way (I'm surmising) they can stay at your place without the owner (99.5%) being in situ because they are named on the tapu? In the event of a future sale they would just get a few hundred pounds.
Too simple?
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Far too simple SteveJ.
To have someone added to a TAPU I think you'd have to go through the sale process and pay the relevant fees and taxes, and where appropriate, Capital Gains Tax.
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but if I "sold" 0.5% of my apartment to my step daughter and I loaned her the funds to purchase a little corner of the building then she could presumably be added to the tapu and then simply pay me back the loan. With such a small outlay I don't think CG tax would come in to it.
I realise that words like "simply" and "think" are risky in this cotext which is why I'm throwing the idea out there expecting it to be shot down in flames. ;D
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but if I "sold" 0.5% of my apartment to my step daughter and I loaned her the funds to purchase a little corner of the building then she could presumably be added to the tapu and then simply pay me back the loan. With such a small outlay I don't think CG tax would come in to it.
I realise that words like "simply" and "think" are risky in this cotext which is why I'm throwing the idea out there expecting it to be shot down in flames. ;D
Not sure "selling" such a tiny amount would be practical. Pretty costly I would expect.
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I can add some background to the 20 000TL fine – but for obvious reasons I won’t be identifying the owner of the property concerned.
The fine was actually for two offences.
In the middle of the year a paying guest contacted the Police to report an alleged burglary and get his crime number for insurance purposes. At the same visit the Police informed the guests that it was an illegal rent and placed the onus on the guest to let the owner know they had been rumbled.
For whatever reason, it seems the (not British) guests did not let the owners know.
A second offence came to light later in the year either possibly the result of a noise nuisance complaint or simply the Police chasing up the first offence. This time the guests did let the owners know.
The owners were in the property later in the year and on the first day after Bayram ended received a visit from the Police with the good news.
After taking some advice from Solicitors etc. the owners decided the only choice they had was to pay the fines and take advantage of the 25% discount ( ! ) offered for early payment.
The fact that the second guests were told they would have been evicted if they had been discovered earlier in their holiday appears to be true.
The Police do not appear to be walking around with clipboards checking every single property – that would be an impossible task. They are simply waiting for the phone to ring about other matters and then taking the opportunity to check the property ( and others close by ).
Two unsubstantiated stories are that there is a web site where people can report possible illegal properties and that the Maliye have been seen walking round with pictures of properties being advertised on the Internet.
If anyone has any doubt as to whether they can continue to ignore the new law they do so at their own peril.