Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
Calis Beach Forum => Calis Beach Questions and Information => Topic started by: GordonA on August 11, 2007, 17:55:30 PM
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I was in Shamrock Bar last night around 10.50pm, when 6 uniformed police officers & 2 plain- clothes officers entered & proceeded to count the youngsters in the bar. The senior officer then had a "right go" at the Turkish barman in charge, pointing out that there were 6 youngsters in the bar ,who were obviously under 16 years of age, which apparently is against the law here? I later had a conversation regarding this, with my friend, Gökhan, who assured me that this is indeed true, and bar-owners can be fined very heavily, & closed down for a time.
Pardon my looking on the bleak side of things, but, surely this could lead to a further down-turn to tourism in Turkey? If a family come here on holiday, surely they would prefer to have their kids near to them at all times, & that means in bars etc. { Always bearing in mind what happened in Portugal]
Gordy.
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Must be a bit difficult to judge in the case of pool-side bars etc. When are the kids deemed to be in the bar and, when just beside the pool ?
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You have just said what I was thinking KKOB. Where is the line? If we have kids in the bar garden, is that allowed? Do we then not allow them to use the toilets because they have to go into the bar??
I don't think Gordy is looking at the bleak side of things - sadly it's a reality! When will the authorities wake up?
Gordy - can you clarify? Were these youngsters with their parents??
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Definately a downside to it, I know many families who go to Calis for that very reason,could it be in light of recent reports about young girls being followed,and were the girls with adults, I have seen teenagers drunk and it makes me worry for them.
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I would assume that whether or not these youngsters were being served alcohol or not would perhaps have some relevance, as it would in the UK?
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Apparently not, now I was not listen closely to Gordon, (no young children just Gordon: :) and I dont drink alcohol) but this is how I understood it.
the policeman pointed and counted 6 or 8 under 16's then said they should not be at the bar, Gordon queried this with the Turkish friend, do you mean at the bar or in the bar, the Turkish translation is a little lost, but it mean in the bar, unless they are having a meal and it is a restaurant.
In the UK (long time now) but the rule was you could have children in the bar as long as they were having a meal and there was a seperate place for this, they could also have a glass of wine with the meal, but apparently what they are saying is, in Turkey NO children in a bar, ask if ok if they are dining and you get the typical answer here of a "shrug" and "maybe"
Now is this the old double standard rising his ugly head, Turkish owned bars, were they raided? or is this because it is a foriegn owned bar?
Or
has there been a problem and a scape goat is being sought. strange that 6-8 officers some wearing protected jackets should appear.
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Scunner's point is a good one (I know it's not like him ;)).
I just wonder, if the police are going to adopt this attitude, where they will draw the line. Will they bar 14/15 year old, but allow 8/9 year olds or very young children in push chairs.
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My kids have been more than welcome in EVERY bar and restaurant we have taken them to, which is part of the reason I asked if it were more to do with alcohol than age alone. Not that they appeared to check who was drinking what [:o]
My opinion, sadly, is that a non-Turkish owned bar will be allowed to do averagely well or badly. 'Popular' is not an option that will be tolerated for long.
Anyone thinking to invest in a bar, FORGET IT! You will never make enough money here. You will not sell enough Efes to cover your rent, and you certainly won't become rich through it!
In order to make good earnings from a bar related plan, work out your annual costs, including all rent and takeover (goodwill) payments , and stick that amount in the bank.
You will never get close to making that amount of interest while trying to earn a living on the 20p profit an Efes brings ;)
So, in short, don't be British running a bar in Turkey :)
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Scunner - I hope you didn't think my last posts was directed at your kids. It certainly wasn't, I was making a general point.
Sorry for "chatting" - just wanted to put the record straight.
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ok this is going off topic but what the hell, it is too hot!
Bars in the UK, to make them work at a profit you have to keep a very very tight fist on the profit margins, 56%GP wet led and at least65+%dry led, then the stock control, I have yet to see any stock control in Turkey, then you have to weigh up the the percentage of take against the staff, then the daily monthly yearly overheads, the business tax and rents in the UK are less expensive than Turkey.
Take all the above on board, and unless you live frugal, and have a very healthy dry (food) outlet and extremely good reliable and trustworthy staff, then yes forget it!!!
Back on Topic.
How will Hisaronu/Olu Deniz cope? or is this an isolated incident, maybe this is Fethiye gripe because they did not get into the top 19 towns to earn the status of Province? (meow!)
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quote:
Originally posted by Highlander
Scunner - I hope you didn't think my last posts was directed at your kids. It certainly wasn't, I was making a general point.
I didn't think that at all John, I was replying as you were so it wasn't a reply to yours :)
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We really need a full clarification of this. I appreciate the possible targeting of non Turkish owned bars and more laxity for Turkish owned. However I suppose my concern is more selfish. As most people know we have built a nice new bar at Violet. The pool table is in the bar, kids like to play pool, the ice cream fridge is in the bar etc,etc. What will the ruling be for bars such as Violet and numerous other complexes [?] This could impact seriously on the rentability of apartments on similar complexes.
Ken
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If these children were on thier own and without parents then perhaps the police have a case. I have seen youngsters (under 16)in bars without adults in Calis. Not sure whether they were drinking alcohol or not though. I think young people are allowed in bars in the UK from the age of 14 as long as they're not served alcohol. This used to be the rule anyway. P'raps it's changed?
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Perhaps our friends at Fethiye Times could find out and clarify.
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in the UK you are only allowed underage persons in a pub if it has a separate area for serving food and they can only stay in that area, they cannot sit in a designated bar area. They are only allowed to serve up until 9pm then they must leave at that time, and don't forget that the legal age to drink alcohol is 18.
I would like to know the law for Turkey as I am coming over on the 29th August for 2 weeks with 4 lads all aged sixteen, it will be hard enough keeping them out of trouble at the poolside let alone the bars LOL so if anyone has more info it would be appreciated.:D
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In my opinon kids should not be in bars, full stop. When they are old enough to drink thats ok but otherwise bars should be for adults and as a refuge from kids.
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Let's hope you never stand for election to the local Belediye then ;)
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quote:
Originally posted by saoirse
In my opinon kids should not be in bars, full stop. When they are old enough to drink thats ok but otherwise bars should be for adults and as a refuge from kids.
I am of the same opinion, unless it is a restaurant, hotel or some kind of holiday complex, we are definitely a split household on this one. ;)
just a little info that always made me smirk, British law at its best. " it is illegal to sell alcohol to a drunk person" so you can legally get them off their trolley, then be done for doing so....lo:D ;)
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There have been many underage girls and boys drinking in the bars this year some as young as 14 my daughter was talking to some ofthem one night they think it's great they can get served over here I wondered where the parents were!
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It's also worth remembering that an awful lot of youngsters now look so much older than they are. Here in the UK we ask for proof of age if in doubt. Is there any such ruling in Turkey? If so has anyone ever seen it enforced?
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There isn't any such law in place here. I agree though that kids today look alot older.
Going back to Loz's point about serving drunks, we never serve a drink to someone who comes in drunk. If they get drunk whilst here, then we have an obligation to ensure that they leave safely. More often than not, that means shoving them into a taxi.
The worst place for under-age drinking is by far Hisaronu. One night, after doing a show at the Ata Bar, we went for a nightcap at another bar. There were three girls dancing on the bar, skimpily dressed and no knickers!! They were being ogled by men and boys alike. At three in the morning remember!! They were obviously drunk. We got talking to them and it turned out that two were fourteen, one was fifteen. Asking them where their parents were, they said "oh, they're p#s**d across the road. What can you say?? I got a clout when I was seventeen for having a beer - and rightly so!
Should us bar owners be punished for other peoples irresponsibility when we are trying our best??
Back to Gordy's original posting, it does seem that Shamrock's is not on the police's christmas card list. This goes back way before it was the Shamrock. They should at least give them a chance.
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I have just been told that there is a 14 year old English girl helping out behind the bar in B52 my daughter had her serve her last night and was very shocked! Maybe the police should be made aware of this?
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I am sure they can find 8 spare police officers to deal with her.
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:)I agree with that, I know its different on holiday but everything in moderation, I have seen under fives with their parents, grandparents, totally off their heads, it looks horrible, and its not clever,WEe saw a similar incident in June, and the adults were arguing, and the kids were crying, not a nice sight.[^]
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Was the Shamrock Bar the only premises visited in Calis that night? Has there been problems in Calis involving young people under the influence of alcohol? Was a specific complaint made to the Police about this particular bar?.
I personally have seen children under 16 years of age drinking alcohol in Calis bars/restaurants/streets/beach with or without adult supervision.
The use of 8 personnel for the visit may seem a bit heavy but possibly they were a dedicated squad,sharing a single vehicle,checking up on places where problems involving alcohol have developed throughout the Fethiye area?
If Calis does not want these officers can Lanarkshire have them please?
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i arrived in shamrock shorly after this happened and some people were clearly shocked at the heavy tactics.i was told that they were then going to check the bars on the prom.Does anyone know if they did for certain?i think families will allow their kids in bars when on holiday and not in uk.its very different.When bar owners are designing bars these days they have children in mind this is why we have pool tables and boys dancing half naked on bars.This is to bring in the families.The parents can enjoy themselves knowing the kids are in the same bar enjoying themselves.Rightly or wrongly .Calis needs the kids in the bars otherwise the parents wont be there and everyone suffers.Just a different way on looking at it.The kids in the shamrock were around 14-16 and not drinking alcohol.
Ron
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[^]Sounds a bit ominous though , has anyone heard yet if any of the other bars wers approached,if the kids were'nt drinking what was the problem. ;)
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Regarding teens dancing knickerless at the Ata Bar, this would have taken place with full collusion of the bar staff and management. The teens should have had their heads stamped with black ink to stop them getting any more alcohol for ther rest of the holiday and the bar shut down for a fortnight for allowing it.
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Thats terrible Dave!
Obviously you get young teens that look alot older than they actually are AND i am all for people having fun on holiday, why shouldn't they!? But not to the extent where they get so drunk that they are putting themselves or other people in danger.
I work in a bar and we are so strict on ID and refusual of service when somebody is obviously drunk - By this i mean to the point where they struggle to remain standing!
In bars in Turkiye, the staff seem to find it amusing when girls/lads get immortal drunk and are making fools out of themselves. I was in a bar in June and it came to the end of the night, around 4am. There was a girl who couldn't have been older than 18 and she was sat on the floor being sick all over herself and she couldn't move. I asked my friend who worked there what she had been drinking and he told me she'd been drinking everything, all night. I myself was tipsy, but this girl couldn't even stand. The staff wouldn't go near her and it got to the pitch where I was propping her up, giving her a drink of water AND cleaning the sick off her! Then the lads just got the hosepipe out! There does not seem to be a point where they stop serving somebody for being off their faces, and that's worrying. Especially when half of these people are underage anyway
Rant over
Sevi
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Not a rant at all Sevi, and Dave I feel exactly the same as you. We have seen it many times over the years, I have seen a 13 year old off her face, and her father frantic with worry because she told him she was going somewhere else, and could'nt believe my eyes when the father was berated for taking her out of the bar, luckily enough he would not let her leave his side for the rest of the holiday,
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Yes that's a good job he didn't let her leave his side, i don't blame him! What these people have got to remember is that they are in a foreign country where they don't really know anyone and think that every barman or waiter they meet are their friends, when they are not. Some staff deal with situations well, but others have seen it all a million times and just see 'another drunken 12 year old' and turn their backs! I have seen it all before too many times and often try and help. It normally ends up with me saying 'where's you're hotel and 9 times out of 10.. guess what.. The answer is 'I don't know'. That's always fun at 5am and all you want to do is go home!
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Regarding the knickerless, it wasn't the Ata Bar but your point is still valid.
Seviyorum couldn't have put it better. Bars have to act responsibly but also, so do the parents! Fortunately it isn't an issue for us but I can see the difficulties other bars have. Perhaps Seviyorum's point about strict ID is the only solution just as long as bars work together to enforce it?
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Its been said that Calis needs the kids in the bar or the parents will not come. There are many places in Calis where a drink can be enjoyed with children in the company. Unfortunately as the night moves on and more alcoholic drink is consumed children can be isolated and left to watch adults over indulge. I do not mean to upset anyone but surely a bar,late at night, is a totally inappropriate place for a child to be,accompanied by adults not.
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Thank-you Kismet, i think that they should be more strict with ID, if i served somebody who is 18 back here and the police caught me (as they send people in) i would get fined £80 on the spot and could get taken to court and fined a further sum of money.
I agree with you John, i really do not think that bars are a place for children. However, i don't think it's too much of a problem when the parents aren't getting so drunk they loose control and it's earlier on in the night. What i cannot understand is when you start getting children in the bar at 1/2/3am in the morning! It doesn't matter if the parents are with them or not, other people are in there getting drunk - Personally i don't think it's right that a child should be in that environment.
I hate seeing prams in bars during the night - That's something i really don't agree with - Why anybody would want to take a baby to a bar is beyond me!
I witnessed an incident last year when i was there for a month. A family bought 5 young children out with them, non of the children could have been any older than 14! The parents got so drunk that they were starting fights within the bar - AND the two little boys with them actually joined in! The kids were 'allowed' to drink efes and have one shot - bought by there DAD so at this point the bar-staff were not aware! That was really shocking and when the staff actually saw the kids drinking alcohol they were stunned!
Then i noticed that the family had rented 2 of the buggy carts - That you DO need a license for. The two young boys ended up having to drive the buggies back to their apartment, they made at least 2 journeys to take everyone (the adults and the rest of the kids) Because the adults were too off their faces to do anything by the end of the night! I couldn't believe what i was seeing !
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I hate seeing young kids in bars late at night, up until a certain time is ok but when theyre still there gone midnight it is just selfish. It's not so bad when theyre young babies in prams just sleeping through it in an outside airy bar, but last year me and my friend were in a bar and a child who must have been about 2 had just been left in her pram by the side of the pool (!!) and when my friend commented to the bar staff on this she was called every name under the sun by the gobby mum who unfortunately overheard her!
I agree that most bars in Calis are an ok place for children to be in the evenings/night but there needs to be a balance/compromise when parents think about their kids and take them home to their beds where they should be.
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quote:
Originally posted by SEVIYORUM
I hate seeing prams in bars during the night - That's something i really don't agree with - Why anybody would want to take a baby to a bar is beyond me!
Couldn't agree more - a late night bar is no place for very young children. Having said, that we saw a young lad (maybe 12 or 13) in Scarlett on a number of occasions last June who was with his parents and who behaved immaculately every time. Never saw him drink alcohol, only enjoyed playing pool iwth his parents and Murat.
PS He played Murat off the table by the way.:D
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I certainly do not agree with under age children drinking late at night or anytime,with or without parents present.Where were the parents when this happened at Shamrock bar[?]Were they off getting drunk too[?]:-\:-\
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Jenny was that the same people that one of the women fell over the pram drunk, she was'nt even bothered showing everything she had even when she was sat down,(put me right off my lentil soup). ;) As was said before if the children and adults are behaving in a proper manner then ok, but they should be asked to leave if they are not, [^]
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I think it might have been the same person Moe! Not nice...
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SEVIYORUM,you pick up my point exactly. Taking children to a bar in the company of adults who drink responsibly can be a helpful introduction to adult life for them. The problem obviously lies with the irresponsible adults who abuse alcohol, but how their behaviour and attitude could be changed is beyond me. Perhaps a harsher line by the authorities similar to that which started this thread is the answer.
I do not know if anyone else has noticed the reduction in police cover in Calis. There used to be a small police post on the riverbank at the bridge which generally had a policeman in it or near it plus there were regular patrols by tourist police on a 125cc Honda motorcycle,two officers on mountain bikes,two officers on a large off road BMW motorcycle plus various marked car patrols and the universal marked Transit van. On recent holidays I have rarely seen a police presence in Calis. Could this have a bearing on the problem?
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I agree with seviyorum and John H.The samall police post is now,as I understand it,an ATM.OMG.The police are now turning out to be the same visible presence as in the UK.:-\
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:) Doubt it Sanny, well not this part of the Uk, ;)
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I bet Madeleine's parents wish they had taken her to the bar/restaurant. That is very hard but to be honest we have taken our kids to bars all over Europe from the age of around 6 or 7. They have never been in any trouble. We have never been in any trouble. They are now 31 and 27 and would probably agree with my reasoning. At the end of the day we must let commom sense prevail. I believe the conduct of the children is governed by the standards (or lack of) of the parents.
Ken
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:)Your right Ken and thats what we are saying, I dont want to open a can of worms here, but some of us know that its not just alcohol these people are consuming, if you had seen the woman we are referring to you would understand, and I am convinced alot of the trouble there last year was related to the same thing, i've seen it at home where the quietist of people can turn into a raging bull and its not nice.[^]
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I wonder,do other nationalities place as much importance on access to bars for all their family on holiday as the British do? Apart from the new influx of East Europeans,who seem to keep to themselves,there are very few other nationalities visible in Calis now. My own recollections are that most bars busy with families and large groups were invariably patronised by the British. This observation based on my own limited travels. Any comments or views?
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:)John I think it is mainly the british, from my experience, there are also alot of Russian and Polish that go to Calis, but they don't frequent the bars, simply because of prices I am told, I have seen them strolling up and down the front of an evening and was told by Bayram in Hamsi bar that they just don't spend and are mainly fully inclusive. ;)
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John/Laffa. I think it is mainly the British. I believe most Europeans have a more liberal approach to alcohol consumption in the early teens. So their kids are more educated in the rights, wrongs and effects of drinking. The Brits see foreign holidays as an opportunity to take advantage where controls are not as stringent.
Ken
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If it is the Brits could it be that alcohol is more expensive in the UK and therefore they go over the top when on holiday?
Booze cruises to France, you never see them advertising "booze run to UK"
Many of the Scandinavians ventured to the UK for less expensive clothes, then made sure they claimed the VAT back on EVERYTHING!
They say you can claim back the VAT for food and drink purchased in Turkey, now this could be interesting, every night request a tax receipt from the establishments, you have to make sure you only frequent the ones who are part of the scheme and displaying the sticker. make your holiday even cheaper to double you alcohol intake, forget where you have left the kids, parked grannies wheel chair, mislaid your purse/wallet or handbag, and not necessarily in that order : :) ;)
(well I thought as the forum is now out no to close businesses.. ;): :) I must be feeling brave, it is the heat addle the grey matter).