Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
General Topics => All things that have nothing to do with Turkey => Topic started by: Highlander on August 16, 2010, 18:01:39 PM
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Where do you stand on the news that Tony Blair is to give the profits from his book to the British Legion.
For me, it's a grand gesture by a man with blood on his hands which I wish he had kept private.
Changed the spelling in the title to 'blood' :)
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I doubt he'll make many friends whichever way he plays it so he might as well let people know what he is doing. I think it is a great thing to do and it makes no difference to me that it was made public. Good on him.
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Whatever any one thinks of Tony Blair I firmly believe he did what he thought was right at the time, I think he is a decent honest man with a conscience.
Whatever he does people will find fault with.
Mark
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Did he make it public or is it that no-one can do anything without a reporter picking up the story?
At least he didn't keep it.
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Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Glad he chose the way he did.
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I think he is was a power urinated warmongerer that just wanted his name in the hall of fame. Apart from introducing the minimum working wage war is all he did. He should give the whole lot to the British legion not just the profits which he would pay tax on.
Lets hope it goes some way to helping those injured in his wars, no such jestures from his little puppet Brown
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You like him then????
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If you have not seen The Ghost then it's worth a pop. Out on video now I think. Here's an interesting article from Peirce Brosnan who played him:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/film/article-23823995-pierce-brosnan-on-being-blair.do
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He should be answering questions in The Hague not writing books - end of story.
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all i can say is thatcher and the falklands another warmonger
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quote:
Originally posted by puma
all i can say is thatcher and the falklands another warmonger
Disagree - the Falklands people wanted to stay British and we defended their right. Thatcher did nothing wrong IMO.
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I have to agree with Stoop Puma. Not the same thing.
I just think that Tony is still on an a this massive ego trip and everything is about him and nothing else.
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Cherieeeee is the one to watch ;-)
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I can believe that Stoop. I often wonder how much influence she had over our Tone why he was faced with the really big decisions
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totally agree stoop, falklands was invaded and we defended our land. he should be standing in dock charged with war crimes alongside his sugar daddy bush. hundreds of lives lost because of an illegal war(remember no weapons of mass destuction ever found or proved to have any). i think he should also be charged with mass destuction of our own country, but that of course is just my opinion.
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Would that be the Falklands war, where Mrs Thatcher sunk the General Belgrano with the loss of 323 lives, even though it was outside the exclusion zone she set up and going the other way.
To say all Tony Blair did was bring in the minimum wage is rubbish. I lost a sister to cancer because she waited weeks to see a specialist in the 90s I can tell the story because I got treatment within one week 10 years ago.
That said I think Maggie was a great prime minister, as was Tony Blair. Even after a year on strike I still voted for Maggie. But then again I was born a Tory but started to vote on what I thought was right not because where I live, or how rich we were.
This is not a go at any one in particular, but up north we have a saying "if the cap fits wear it"
Mark
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Can't stand the man personally. Don't think he does have a conscience - he appears to be as fake as his smile. Damn good decision to give the money away....he certainly didn't deserve to keep it and if our heros can benefit from his mistakes so they should.
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Agree with you Mark. The point about democracy is that everyone has a vote and with it comes your own personal right to use that vote in your own best interests.After Thatcher, our NHS was in a very bad way, so Blair recruited nursing students on his 'project 2000'. Within 3 years of this starting we had cut down the influx of 'foreign' nursing staff, and had cut the unemployment rate.
If Blair was so bad, why was he voted into power twice?....Although Brown soon stuck his knife in!
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good point from mark and sadness to lose any family member and relations from illness whom they know should have better treatment. but how many parents are there who have lost sons and daughters husbands and wives not through illness but killed in another country thousands of miles away when they should not have been there in the first place, one man is responsible for that, and that man is Tony Blair
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Hind sight and history tells us great things, Des the next time you buy me a pint if we had ignored Adolf you would be ordering it in German.
We will never know what the world would be like if we left Saddam to his own devices, or if we left Afghanistan to look after its self.
I have trust to the people we elect to do what they think is right at the time with the information they have.
Mark
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I think the problem over Iraq is that he did know there were no WMD - he was informed weeks prior to invasion by British intelligence services .... yet he has "avoided" issues questioning exactly why the invasion and war then subsequently took place. His possible financial involvement with an oil company now operating in Iraq is also an interesting point isn't it. Slippery.
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Posted - 18 August 2010 : 10:37:26
I have trust to the people we elect to do what they think is right at the time with the information they have.
But they have been known to abuse your trust.
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The Falklands was totally different. This was an invasion of a British Colony, against the wishes of the British population. This was a war effectivly declared on the UK and we had every right to take whatever action was needed to defeat the enemy. The resolve in which this was achieved so quickly is to be commended.
The fact that the Falkland Island group (VP8) also sits on a large known oil reserve was why Argentina wanted it of course. ;)
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If you are a Tory you hate him....
If you are old Labour you dont Trust him.
I think he made a brave call with the information he was given.
A very Honorable gesture by a good man.
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Fair comment Mark, my round. lol
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Let the British Legion decide - it's NOTHING to do with us. They are a charitable organisation who's support is impossible to quantify, for those troops who sadly need them, what a critically important role they play. If they prefer to muddle through without the reported £4.5 million for starters then it's their call. Unless you work for the British Legion charity, or your legs were last seen in a skip in Helmand province, your opinion on Tony Blair's financial pledge really is less than irrelevant.
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Disagree Scunner - I think we have every right to question the morals of one of our ex prime ministers.
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Do that all you like, but whether our troops should be told they can't have their face reconstructed because they didn't take the £4.5m should be a decision for the British Legion alone.
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I didn't think anyone had questioned the British Legion's decision making in all this. Yes it's entirely up to them if they want to accept the money or not.
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If it's acceptable to you that it should be taken, can it be unacceptable to you that it was offered?
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The offer of the money is the real issue here not whether it's accepted. Blair has profited too much from his time as PM for my liking and this offer just shows what a callous man he really is.
£4.5m to ease his conscience is what it's really about. As I said above - imo it's up to the BL members to decide if they want it or not.
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From The Independent:
"Speakers classed in the industry as "double A" grade earn more than £25,000 per booking, and include international sports stars, retired prime ministers and presidents. Bill Clinton is reputed to earn more than £130,000, while Margaret Thatcher has charged £30,000 ~ The former Conservative Party leader William Hague is the most popular speaker on the circuit, again commanding up to £25,000. But Edwina Currie can only expect £4,000".
I'm surprised you single out Blair.
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I totally agree with you Stoop and with due respect Keith we are not talking about after dinner speakers and income earnt thereon - we were discussing the morality of how the earning of this particular money came about I thought. I'm sure that the BL will decide what is best for its members and my greatest respect for them and their tireless work.
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quote:
Originally posted by barry44544
If you are a Tory you hate him....
If you are old Labour you dont Trust him.
I think he made a brave call with the information he was given.
A very Honorable gesture by a good man.
read beeps post again. he knew beforehand there were no WMD but went ahead, could it be his good pal G W Bush helped him make a decision.
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quote:
Originally posted by Beep
the morality of how the earning of this particular money came about I thought.
I was assuming Margaret Thatcher would be speaking about her time as PM when she was being paid £30k per appearance rather than discussing her favourite recipes. Why are these earnings being considered different to Blair's earnings from his book? Under Thatcher many suffered, under Blair others suffered. Both are making/made big money from talking about it, why is it ok for Thatcher and not for Blair? I am entirely lost by your argument!
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I would go back to the initial topic by Highlander Keith "Blood money or a grand gesture" - we were not talking about Margaret Thatcher at all but the fact that Tony Blair is to give the profits from his book to the British Legion (if they accept them).
It must be accepted of course that a large part of this is actually tax avoidance on his part so it is in fact the British Taxpayer that is making a large part of the donation - not Mr Blair although Mr Blair gets the publicity ;-)
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We are talking about ex-PMs making money from the very fact that were once PM. Could it not be blood money for Thatcher's pocket, from the lives her Government destroyed through the disastrous economic policy that eventually lead to the meltdown of the ludicrous Exchange Rate Mechanism, Black Wednesday, Poll Tax and various other mismanangements that caused great suffering to many people.
Surely blood money to pay £30,000 to Thatcher to tell a room of drunken toffs how people lost their jobs and homes while she was not for turning.
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You seem to have a fixation over Mrs T :-)
Well indeed you could be correct but she didn't invade an effectively defenceless country causing the deaths of 1000s of civilians and soldiers to my recollection but doubtless you will disagree.
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A defenceless country that has not been defeated in 7 years of trying. No, Thatcher didn't invade Iraq, you are correct. John Major did. Or is Afghanistan the defenceless country you are referring to, which has defended itself against the mighty Soviet Union and then the Allied forces?
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If Mrs T was that good why did they dump her?
and as for knowing what information Tony Blair had, only the security services
of the UK and the USA know the full story.
I suppose he was only Gassing his own people because they were defenceless .
Good old Saddam... we miss him.
Its funny it's not a fixation when your slagging Mr Blair.
But Maggie was a saint !
Funny old game aint it.
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Actually John Major did not invade Iraq. The Persian Gulf (Dessert Storm - 1991) war which liberated Kuwait from invading Iraqi forces didn't actually take place in Iraq or effect its citizens. Again, this was a defence of an allied country and once the Iraqi forces were forced back into southern Iraq a ceasefire was called. Remember Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf.
Reference the actual Iraq War - 2003 - The security services have already made public that they knew there were no WMD in Iraq before invasion took place. Why it took place is open to conjecture but maybe we will learn why from Tony's book.
Barry - Mrs T was far from being a saint but I don't see what she has to do with any of this
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quote:
Originally posted by Beep
didn't actually take place in Iraq or effect its citizens.
Over and above at least 20,000 Iraqi military personnel, an estimated three and a half thousand Iraqi citizens perished in the "Persian Gulf (Dessert Storm - 1991) war" as you call it through bombings alone. Ten times more than coalition forces deaths. 3,500 - an irrelevant number as it didn't affect the citizens of Iraq - according to your version of events.
Good old John Major, an angel.
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What..... the security services made everything public and we now know all that happened....... nothing locked away then?
no 50 year rule?
no locked away forever?
Beep.... you have one view other people have another view..
Just because you believe a thing to be true, or you read somthing in the press, dont make it fact.
Democracy.... who'd have it a...!
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In 1991 Iraq was the aggressor into Kuwait and a coalition of 32 nations repelled the invasion. Subsequently in any war there are unfortunately casualties.
This is a quite different set of events to that leading to the Iraq invasion and enforced occupation in 2003 and that you're well aware of Keith but it's always interesting to exchange different points of view ;-)
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quote:
Originally posted by Beep
Subsequently in any war there are unfortunately casualties
Ah, that's a little different to your earlier "didn't actually take place in Iraq or effect its citizens"
I agree, it's nice to have a debate on here and not have anyone resorting to name calling or storming off in a huff :-\
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:-))
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come on guys, time to nip this in the bud i think, this is not a thatcher v blair contest because it would be no contest. everyone knows regardless of their politcal beliefs Margaret Thatcher was the finest prime minister this country has had since Winston Churchill. the topic is blood money, and tony blair is donating it because deep down he feels guilt, but has,nt got the guts to admit it. Des signing off.
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Bait
Scunner (not rising)
Good try Des :D
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Night Des ;-)
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Good topic, relatively sensibly discussed, however it went rapidly downhill with last post by desmartinson. I submit that there is probably many millions of his fellow british people who do not think Thatcher was finest PM since etc.
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Thanks for the compliment on the topic Peter :).
Unfortunately, Mrs Thatcher was not mentioned in the title.
The topic is about T.Blair and his donation of monies from his book.
My opinion is still that he should have done it privately and without ceremony and that he remains on a massive ego trip which started some considerable time ago.
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It would have leaked out sometime and then it's the scandal of the hushed up Blair bribe - the man can't win so he might as well just do it and get back to being liked and disliked by exactly the same people as before he decided to do it.
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I would still have preferred that the risked the "hushed up bribe" option you suggest.
Maybe I should consider the possibility that he is genuinely remorseful and that the offer is his way of showing it.
My problem with Tony is that alot of people "think" that he lied to them over the threat and that, God forbid, there is certain threat in the future, peolpe will not be able to be sure that
they are being told the absolute truth by however is in power at that time.
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Why does the money have to show that he is "genuinely remorseful" for taking us to war? I doubt he is - as a Christian it is quite possible that he is not remorseful about sending the troops to war at all but has the opportunity to ease the suffering of fellow human beings affected by it. Every death and every injury is a tragedy - but the choice to join the British armed forces rather than Currys was made by the individuals, not by Tony Blair.
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quote:
Originally posted by Scunner
1. Why does the money have to show that he is "genuinely remorseful" for taking us to war?
2.I doubt he is - as a Christian it is quite possible that he is not remorseful about sending the troops to war at all but has the opportunity to ease the suffering of fellow human beings affected by it.
3. Every death and every injury is a tragedy - but the choice to join the British armed forces rather than Currys was made by the individuals, not by Tony Blair.
1. It doesn't have to - it just seems that way to some.
2. Surely that arguement would apply if he was a Christian or not.
3. Agreed - the decision to join the British armed forces was made by individuals but surely those individuals should be asked to go to war only when there is an unequivocial direct threat to the nations security
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3. No, they should be asked to go to war as directed by their superiors and Government. I don't think we should be in either Afghanistan or Iraq but that's the job they took.
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quote:
Originally posted by Highlander
Thanks for the compliment on the topic Peter :).
Unfortunately, Mrs Thatcher was not mentioned in the title.
The topic is about T.Blair and his donation of monies from his book.
My opinion is still that he should have done it privately and without ceremony and that he remains on a massive ego trip which started some considerable time ago.
John I don't see how he could have kept it quite, surely the British Legion have to show in there accounts where major donations come from.
Mark
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Mark - a fair point re BL accounts and not one I had thought about.
Scunner 3. Agreed if decided by paliament but surely only as a last resort.