Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
General Topics => All things that have nothing to do with Turkey => Topic started by: sannyrut on April 25, 2011, 12:56:30 PM
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I say yes.I voted Conservative at the last election because I KNEW that Blair and the man who saved the world,were puppets of the Unions and made an absolute disaster of everything they touched.What did I get?A referendum on Europe-No.Proper and robust controls on Immigration?double No.Throwing out foreign criminals-triple No.Same old,same old,same old.Have we been cheated????This Country is being ruined.FACT.Is it time for an election because of this?
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Us Brits north of the border have an election a week on Thursday ;) :)
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Don't you love it when the little UK-ites come out and moan about being cheated at the polls by politicians. Wake up, really, what did you expect from the Tories: :) and their camp followers(the sorry Cleggites) Honesty :o???
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From what I've seen since election day I think I'd have preferred Brown and Cameron to form a coalition government to keep that snivelling little principle dropper out of my telly...
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I do not know why people keep blaming the Tories. You can predict what the Tories will do. Wehad years of Thatcher and Major and the policies were the same spending cuts and bash the unions. Exactly the same manifesto for the recent election. You knew what you were getting.
The real culprits here are the Lib Dems. They gave up everything they believed in for the sake of power.You see that smug idiot Clegg walking around thinking he is in control. He is not he has signed up to be the Tories lackie. Let us hope that the people remember on May 5th.
I will also be voting against changing the voting system. It is not that I support first past the post, it is I do not want to see more of Clegg's lot in the House of Commons.
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Alright APART from not giving us a referendum on Europe, and no proper and robust controls on immigration, and no ejections of foreign criminals WHAT have the Tories ever done for us? :D
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Blair and Brown - puppets of the unions? What a joke! On the labour front "New Labour" were no better than the Tories and continued with industrial relations legislation designed to obstruct unions in defending and advancing the pay and conditions of workers.
At the same time they governed over a huge redistribution of wealth from poor to rich so we now live in the most unequal society we have had in living memory. I am watching Miliband's performance with interest to see if he can repair some of these policies and convince me to vote Labour again.
OP, in the eighties and nineties the winning party regularly got 42-43% of the vote. Since then party allegiance may have weakened. In the last two elections the largest party got 35.2 (New Lab, 2005) and 36.1 (Con, 2010). It may well be that in the no one party will get past the post under the present system. If we are going to have "hung" or "balanced" parliaments I think AV is probably a better system of determining the balance. ON the other hand if large numbers stop voting Lib Dem will the votes go to big two and give us two party system again? More likely minor parties or abstention, I think.
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Serious answer now to the question. For economic and social policy reasons, YES there should be a General Election now. Cameron, Clegg and Osborne have been reckless with both the economy and public services, and whilst most of us - except for rich - are starting to feel it, it is the poor and the vulnerable are who are feeling it most, and will continue to do so, under what will become a perma-frost of regressive economic and social policies.
Another reason why there should be a general election now is that Cameron does not command a majority in the House of Commons with his own single party, he relies upon Clegg and the his gang of political opportunist. If Cameron was honest, with himself and the country, he should go to the country to seek a single party mandate as Wilson did in 1974, less than year after forming a minority government.
However, for political reasons, I'd say we do not want a General Election now - well not for a short while anyway. The Lib Dems in the Coalition Government are destroying the Lib Dem Party from the bottom up. Despite what is being said by the Leadership, many of the Lib Dem activists have walked away, or are at least sitting on their hands, if you want evidence of that look at the number of Lib Dem candidates standing in next week's Local Election it is down. Never mind how many candidates who do stand will lose because of the un popularity of the Lib Dems working with the Tories. After next week's local results, and of course the AV vote, we'll see the rot starting from the top of the Lib Dems as well, as many of the Local and parliamentary leadership seek to distance themselves from Clegg. Making the Lib Dems look even worse, as a disunited party, a very bad thing in electoral terms.
All of which will leave Labour to become - aside from nationalists and perhaps some Greens - the single voice of the opposition, with a clear run against the Tories. Something Labour has not really had since 1964, and I think this will give Milliband a chance to shine, with the right policies (not necessarily spending commitments)and acknowledgement of some issues in the Blair/Brown years. Shouldn't ignore that there are great similarities between Milliband and Wilson, and Wilson was a winner more often than he was a loser!! Which is why I say No to a General Election now, but General Election late this year early next year. Of course assuming that Cameron has the bottle to call it, and leave his mate Clegg all washed up ;)
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Gentlemen:D[?] this must one of the few occasions when agreement amongst the forum(apart from the openning post)is so united :o.
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Clegg will justify his actions by claiming that he got the referendum on AV - which is probably the most significant event in British politics in decades.
Unfortunately for the many decent liberals out there amongst the rank and file membership and hard working local counsellors he and his cohorts in the higher echelons of the party have abandoned all their other principles leaving many supporters totally disillusioned.
He is a total disgrace and unless the result of the referendum is YES then he has consigned a once honourable party to the dustbins of history.
And as has already been said why anyone expected anything different from the Conservatives with a repeat of their tired and previously failed policies is beyond me.
It was as clear as day, spelt out time and again by Cameron - you only had to watch the three debates to know exactly what was coming. History is just repeating itself; it didn't work then and it isn't working now.
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Westminster politics is between the devil and the deep blue sea at the moment.
We have a Tory party with deficit cutting policies that are right for the country but are being implemented too quickly. The cuts that they are forcing through are savage and are having a severe impact on not only the worse off in society but also the middle class. The Uk has a budget deficit that is higher than Greece and Portugal and needs to be brought under control. All parties agree on that but it is the speed that is done is the major difference between them.
The Lib Dems, the less said about them the better. They have broken nearly every significant policy that they fought the election on. The Tories gave them the AV referendum as payment for support.
The current Labour party is the interesting one to look at. Milliband was basically elected by the Union vote. Only for this support then his brother would have won. For Union support what has Milliband got to give if Labour win the next election.
Are we going to go back to the days that the Unions ruled the country?
The one thing I do know is that I will not be voting for the Lib Dems.
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Vote Monster Raving Loony party. That way, when the country goes down the pan, at least we can all go down laughing.
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Ovacikpeedoff makes an interesting point 'Are we going to go back to the days that the Unions ruled the country?' Perhaps we could answer this question by requesting some supplemntary information like when was this period of time? how did the unions rule the country? where were government and capital hiding during this period? was this something unique to the UK? was there any significant economic factors in play during this period?
In those immortal words .. I think we should be told (and the full story at that!!) ;)
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quote:
Originally posted by usedbustickets
when was this period of time?
Glad you asked this UBT. I thought it was simply my memory loss.
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Remember the time of the 3 day week. British Leyland were striking every week over unofficial teabreaks. Mass pickets and flying pickets. Unions picketing companies that were not directly involved in strikes. If one lot were not stiking then the others were. The unions that kept Callaghan and Wilson in power. The unions that eventually brought down the Heath government.The unions that made the UK the laughing stock of the world.
The unions that took on Margaret Thatcher and lost. She took the unions on and beat them. I did not like the way she humiliated the miners but she was right to take them on. People had a belly full of unions and so much so that they elected the Tories in the next 3 elections.
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quote:
Originally posted by Ovacikpeedoff
The unions that eventually brought down the Heath government.
Was that the Ted Heath who called a general election over the (his) question of whether the country should be governed by him or by the unions. And found out that the electorate had decided it certainly shouldn't be him. Served him right. The dispute that he was getting so aerated about was over long before election day.
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General election, my god, after what Blair and Brown did to the country, yes weve got cameron and clegg (weaklings)but it would take jesus christ and john the baptist to perform miracles to get the country out of the state unelected Brown put us in.
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The labour party were the biggest party after the March election. In October, labour won the election with a majority of 3. The Wilson government managed to bankrupt trhe country and send Healy off to the IMF for a bail out. Yes, the UK had a bail out long before the Greeks or the Irish had one.
In 1979 after 5 years of disaster for the economy Thatcher won a large majority.
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quote:
The labour party were the biggest party after the March election. In October, labour won the election with a majority of 3
Hi OVPO I thought that's what I said earlier? Anyway onto the point of the Wilson/Callaghan government's economic performance. Was that the Dennis Healey going to the IMF after inheriting the mess left by Heath and his Chancellor with the infamous 'Barber Boom' ... and worst still Healey had to manage the economy against the external economic factor of the tripling of the oil price, and a world economy moving into recession? You'll recall of course at that time the UK was a net importer of oil, without the benefit of North Sea oil.
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In the 15 years Between 1964 and 1979 the labour party were in power for 11 of those years. Are we forgetting Harold Wilson's famous statement in that the pound in your pocket is still the same pound when sterling was devalued. Barber did make a mistake when he allowed sterling to float and what happened the pound hit rock bottom. It was also the time that the unions were demanding more and more. Remember the £6 a week wage rise. most companies could not afford it but the unions drove it through. Other economies such as Germany and Japan were exposed to the same rises in oil prices yet their economies grew while the UK shrank.
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quote:
Originally posted by Ovacikpeedoff
Remember the time of the 3 day week. British Leyland were striking every week over unofficial teabreaks. Mass pickets and flying pickets. Unions picketing companies that were not directly involved in strikes. If one lot were not stiking then the others were. The unions that kept Callaghan and Wilson in power. The unions that eventually brought down the Heath government.The unions that made the UK the laughing stock of the world.
The unions that took on Margaret Thatcher and lost. She took the unions on and beat them. I did not like the way she humiliated the miners but she was right to take them on. People had a belly full of unions and so much so that they elected the Tories in the next 3 elections.
When I questioned you earlier on your assertion that the unions ruled the country I was hoping your response would bring some broader analysis to the debate, but unfortunately it hasn't, you have simply realed off a set of headlines. And if I may observe it looks like you have pulled the headlines from the front of the Daily Mail, and so instead of bringing light to our discussion, you have brought heat. The picture you paint is certainly not one I recognise of the time, but perhaps it is when viewed and informed through the prism of the press in the UK.
Your point of the three day week driven by the miners strike has already been answered by Colwyn. I'd just simply add that this was the first national miners actions, since the coal mie owners lock out of 1929, and in 1973 the miners were amongst the lowest paid organised workers in the UK.
However, the overwhelming majority of working people's experience in the UK in the 70s was very different. Almost all never had any contact with flying or mass pickets, or indeed picketing of any kind. And even with a majority of workers at that time being in a union, only a few actually experienced strikes or industrial action of any kind. Indeed there is a higher level of industrial action during Thatcher's government than during the seventies, including many workers who had not taken industrial action before.
Not sure about the unions keeping Wilson and Callaghan in power, but these governments did work with the unions to develop voluntary pay restraint to help the country drive down inflation and recover from the double economic blows of the oil price shock and the Barber boom. Fair to say though that by 1977/8 many workers, particualry in the public sector, were becoming increasingly dissatisfied with pay restraint on them, whilst company profits were booming!
Finally, onto the UK's standing in the world as a result of the unions. The UK was always around average in the developed world in terms of trade union density in the workforce, number of strikes, number of workers taking part in industrial action etc. And when you look at the more 'militant' industrial sectors, such as motor manufacture, construction or mining, the story in most other countries was often the same, and in some cases worse. So we were not so very different in that respect from our European and North American counterparts.
Finally, on the point that Thatcher was elected simply on the basis of the electorate having had a 'bellyfull of the unions' is so partial and simplistic an argument as to be laughable. The reason Thatcher was elected 3 times are many, high on the list was the fractured opposition, the SDP split from Labour, the growth of third party politics (SLD etc.) and amongst the other I cannot forget the judicious stuffing of gold into some voters mouths by the sale of public assets on the cheap through privatisation. Can you really lose when you sell ten pound notes for a fiver ;)
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Every Labour MP was sponsored by one union or another. If the MP did not act in the way that his paymasters wanted then he was in danger of being deselected. If I am quoting from the Daily Mail I think you read the Socialist Worker.The unions elected those that were going to be ministers in a Labour government. If you were not on the neational executive you were not going to be a minister. If that is not influence by the unions what else would you call it. The labour party conferences were dominated by Union block voting.
Britain in the 70s had the highest loss of days through strikes than any other major industrial country..The majority of people were impacted on by union action. The 3 day weekimpacted everyone who lived in the country.
Between 1974 and 79 we had a lameduck labour government that did anything to hang onto power and bankrupted the country in the process.It became so influenced by the loony left that in 1981 the gang of 4 broke away to form the SDP. The reason they broke away was they realized that the Labour party could not win a general election and that supporters were leaving the Labour party like rats leaving the sinking ship.
Tory policies that were so unpopular became more acceptable to the electorate than the Labour party of Michael Foot and Tony Benn. At one stage in the early 80s labour had a 10% plus lead over Thatcher yet they could not win the 1984 election.
Yes, in all of this I did feel for the minetrs and it was a low paid and dirty job that I could never do. I am not a union basher and they do have a major part to play in the protection of workers rights.The unions of the 70s were too powerful, too extreme and too much to the left.
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Yes Ovacick,I agree.I did try and post yesterday about the fact that most Labour MP's,if not all,are sponsored by the Unions.That post got lost somewhere along the line.
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quote:
Originally posted by Ovacikpeedoff
If that is not influence by the unions what else would you call it.
I would call it "influence. I would not call it "ruling the country". Of course Trade Unions have influence in the Labour Party - they did found it after all in order to gain political representation for workers' interests.
Are you suggesting that "business" has no influence over the Conservative Party or that capital (financial and industrial) has no influence over the governing of the UK? Surely not? But this influence is less visible (and less democratic) than that of the unions. It is used, amongst other things, to encourage legislation and policy that increases the freedom of action for agents of capital and decreases the ability of workers to protect their interests against such moves.
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What about the unions in the 1960's.I was leaving school and could have walked into lots of jobs.We had the Caterpillar factory nearby and loads of others,Ravenscraig,Clyde Alloy and many more.Guess what.The Unions,those people who allegedly care for the "workers",kept bringing them out on strike,again,again,and again.There is no Caterpillar,nor Ravenscraig,nor Clyde Alloy anymore,nor the ancillary industries.The Unions were taken over by the people who could not be elected unless they said they were Labour and the sheep followed into oblivion.Their choice,not mine.
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OVP I'm over in Calis / Ovacik at the moment, putting my feet up when I can in between running round setting up the new place. Hence my absence from returning to correct you again on the posts. If you around we can always meet up this week for an Efes and I can explain to you where your politial economy analysis is flawed, and also correct some of your 'facts'. I'll be glad to get the first round in, and then I'll buy some beers ;)
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quote:
Originally posted by sannyrut
What about the unions in the 1960's.I was leaving school and could have walked into lots of jobs.We had the Caterpillar factory nearby and loads of others,Ravenscraig,Clyde Alloy and many more.Guess what.The Unions,those people who allegedly care for the "workers",kept bringing them out on strike,again,again,and again.There is no Caterpillar,nor Ravenscraig,nor Clyde Alloy anymore,nor the ancillary industries.The Unions were taken over by the people who could not be elected unless they said they were Labour and the sheep followed into oblivion.Their choice,not mine.
More to do with the general de-industrialisation of Britain and political antagonism than the unions actions on Clyde. For example was it not the unions in UCS that fought the closures and loss of jobs. Who can forget the closure of the Timex works in Glasgow, and the brave campaign by the owrkers to keep the plant open, and keep jobs. No these and the examples you provide are caused by strikes, that is strikes by capital!
And I do recall Ravenscraig, this was closed by the Thatcher government as part of their war on the unions when the steelworkers attempted to save jobs in their industry after the government appointed hatchet man McGregor, announced the closure of many steelworks, under the name of 'modernisation'. And let's face it Bill Sirs and his members were probably the most moderate of all the heavy indutry unions.
By the way that name McGregor, didn't that come up again only a couple of years later, when he was appointed again by the government to close the coal industry, oh sorry that was 'modernise' the coal industry.