Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
General Topics => All things that have nothing to do with Turkey => Topic started by: Highlander on May 16, 2012, 22:46:00 PM
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Following on from elsewhere.
Karennina - you asked
"Why should someone not follow their dreams and overall happiness in life and if things go so badly wrong come back to the UK as a family still intact and use the "state" to get them back on their feet."
I would suggest that one of the reasons is a follows:
I am fully aware of that there are people who play the system and are given, amongst other things, houses. That is wrong.
But I am equally sure that the Local Authority has a very long list of young people who are looking for a home.
Are we really saying that someone who sells their property, accrues substantial equity and uses that to emigrate, should subsequently be able to come back and immediately go to the top of a housing list.
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Too many questions in such a short post.
But to answer one or two, who goes to the top of a housing list? People returning to the UK, having sold their property and p***ed the proceeds up the wall living the life of a lord in the sun, then returned to the UK penniless go to the top of the housing list? I have never heard of that happening.
I get the feeling Karen's point was more "they help immigrants so why shouldn't Brits expect the same support" more than "this is what you can get if it all goes wrong abroad" - but maybe she'll confirm that (or not). As far as I know, your personal situation on arrival from Calis penniless is no different from your personal situation brought about by becoming penniless at a card night in Ipswich.
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Highlander I really do not know the answer to your question as to "who should be given what" in this country, I am merely stating that if things do go belly up for some people who try to change their lives for hopefully a better way of life for their families and worst case scenario it goes wrong why should they not be given some help to get their lives back on track,I am not saying for a moment they should be given any sort of priorty of going to the top of housing lists etc but it is a known fact in the past people from other countries have been able to arrive in Britain who have never worked here,never paid a penny in to the state and get given a house benefits etc, ok imigration laws seem to have tightened up of late but only because mistakes have been realised too much too late.
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I am perfctly aware of the fact that I have ruffled more then a few feathers with my posts on this subject, my intentions have not at all meant to offend/upset anyone, maybe some other members could give their opinions thoughts as to what they think people should be given/ receive.
Myself I am off to bed as I have to sign on in the morning :)only joking folks:D I have a ten hour day looming tomorrow:(
ps is it still called signing on I have never actually done it, just thinking about the movie The Full Monty in what I think was called the dole que when they started jigging to Hot Stuff[|)]
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Karennina - you certainly have not offended and/or upset me in anyway.
I hope you sleep well and that your ten hour day goes as well as any ten hour day can.
I dare say we will exchange views again tomorrow.
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Think this is one where we stand back from for fear of being politically correct, but one subject sprung to mind with me, re- housing, a friend of mine whose daughter was on a housing waiting list, her parents ,grandparents etc , always lived in the same area,was refused the house she was promised, because a foreign family had been given priority over her, she had been on the waiting list for seven years, the family in question , not even a month. her and her husband both work , but financially fall short for a mortgage, the family who got the house are on benefits, Great ! Britain.:P
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When I was in my late 20's I moved back from Norfolk to Essex to be nearer my parents. There was a huge gap in house prices for these areas and we didnt have much equity in the property we had sold. My husband, I and 2 children slept in one room, my Mum in another and my poor Dad who had cancer, in another. We lived like that for 6mths and were told that we would not be entitled to any sort of council property as we had moved from another area and had owned a property. Eventually we bought a house but we were virtually on the poverty line and it didnt go down too well when people from overseas were givien brand new council flats and houses. I dont resent anyone being given a roof over their head but surely each case should be judged on its own merrits. I know this was back in the 80's but the system doesnt seemed to have moved forward.
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I have personally known several people who came here spent all their money and then were rehoused on their return to UK so yes it can and does happen.
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I'm very happy to be politically incorrect - My daughter works along with her partner, both low income earners and no way for them to get on the property ladder unless we sell up and donate a deposit, which by the way will not happen as we need to ensure that we are not a burden on the state in old age. Does she go to the local council ? No she rents privately.......is she a state burden? No she is self sufficient. Why do people feel they are entitled to a council house, what is wrong with renting in the private sector? Also if we started making sure that those in council houses were entitled to one through out the period they are in one -so much the better. I know countless people in council houses who feel its their right and that once they are in it they are in it for life, regardless of whether they actually need one as personal circumstances change. The council housing stock relies on new houses being built rather than the houses being a means of getting people on their feet and moving on allowing new generations to have a house.
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Well how about they check on what you have paid into the system, how much of a contribution have you made by working and then depending on that you may then receive some form of help. If benefits and state housing/renting wasnt so readily available to benefit claimants then maybe the lazy sods would get off their backsides and join the real world and work! They would have to wouldnt they, what alternative would they have?
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My two pennorth worth is that somebody returning to the UK after trying to build a new life in Turkey and failing should be entitled to the same resources and benefits (Housing) as other people entering Britain from other countries. I'm sure their first stop after landing back in britain wouldn't be the Social Security offices like some!
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The whole logic behind a welfare state is that everyone contributes through taxation to support those that have fallen on hard times. It is a sort of insurance policy if you like. When times are ok you pay your premiums through taxes and when things go wrong you can make a claim.
It is a very simple and effective system of community support. The problem is that nowadays the premiums we pay are huge and the benefits the average joe can claim are equally huge brought about by a combination of the following.
* A huge amount of Brits who have never contributed (or ever intend to)to the system claiming everything they possible can from it.
* A huge influx of immigrants who have been permitted into this country with the simple aim to avail themselves of our benefit system. Who can blame them? Often they come from an unsafe environment where they have no home, no schools, no healthcare and all they know is poverty.
* The benefits for some are so much that there is simply no incentive to work nor do they feel obliged to morally or otherwise do so.
The problem is successive governments who have been hell bent on increasing yours and my tax contributions rather than face the more difficult task of righting the wrongs in the system.
Right, I'll put my soap box back in the cupboard now.
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So anyone who heads off into the sunset and returns should be entitled to all the benefits that are available. I do not agree with anyone coming to the UK and jumping the queue whether they are foreigners or Brits. There are many hard working people in this country who pay their taxes and there are many people who through no fault of their own do not have jobs who have had their names on housing lists for many years. These are the people that should be at the head of the queue.
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If we didn't provide it Ovacikpeedoff we would most likely be taken to the Court of Human rights and after spending money on court cases which undoubtably we would lose, we would then have to provide compensation! No win situation!
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I was a civil servant and worked in the job centre for several years. The rules I had to apply to the clients who really needed help were unfair and absurd. The milkers of the system won every time and there was nothing I could do about it. I chose to leave this well paid permanant job, with all the trimmings rather than have my own personal ethics compromised.
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If there is one act that gets up my nose it is human rights. I totally support human rights but it has got to the stage where it is rediculous. We cannot throw terrorists out of the country and we have to give benefits to all and sundry. We seem to be the only country that does,the rest of Europe does not tolerate the crap we do. We need to make it clear that these laws do not overrule local court rulings.
The law is abused and should apply to those with a refugee status and not everyone who turns up at Heathrow. I lived in Hillingdon and we were the local authority that had to accomadate and support all these foreigners.They had priority over local people.What was even worse none of the Heathrow business rates came to the LA it went to Hounslow.
I do not like to see all foreigners been categorised as scroungers as they are not. The vast majority of foreigners in the UK play an important part and many services could not run without them. The NHS and Transport for London are just two examples.The papers seem to pick on extreme examples.I think we should also remember that we invited them in to do the jobs that the local population considered beneath them. Now we are in an economic crisis attitudes have changed.
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I agree Ovacikpeedoff
I'm not sure just how many times I have to say this but I think that giving people who come to this country immediate access to housing IS WRONG.
But I also consider it wrong that people who leave this country for a period and then come back, for whatever reason, should receive preferential treatment as regards housing ahead of people who have remained on housing lists.
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Piscoe, Ovacikpeedoff Your points are valid and I generally agree, but what we all need to reflect is that the system is fundamentally flawed and all the time that this is the case then there will always be unfairness in the system.
Walk down most High Streets/Shopping Centres, tell me that all of those around are on annual leave, shift work, retired, housewives/husbands no lots do not work but manage to live a reasonably comfortable life. I wish I could sit in a Witherspoons from 09.00-19.00 each day with a beer or something in front of me, but I cannot and I like most people choose to work for a living. That does not make me less annoyed when I see it though because it is those who have worked and those who do work that have put in to the system so that these people are able to do this. This applies to those born here and those immigrants, the system is unfair.
If you come back from living abroad and have little of nothing to bring back to start over again then you should get whatever everyone else is entitled to if you feel unhappy about this then it's tough as I say the system is not fair and flawed. If you really want to get yourself going look at the NHS, is what happens in it all fair, no some people have the best treatment/ service imaginable, others have the opposite, is it fair, is it right, no the system is unfair and flawed.
Finally, my parents both worked all their lives and paid in to the system. Because they did work and were able to save during their working lives have been able to save few pounds and have a property if they need care in the future they will have to pay for this out of their savings, unlike those lucky ones north of the border, is it fair, no!!
Must go now blood pressure on the up :-\
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The old expression should still count - if you don't put it in don't expect to get anything out. Unfortunately, we have three polictal parties, who em don't have a set of ba**s between them when it comes to benefits. I work in this business & beleive, me it is quite shocking & morally wrong for someone who has spent all their capital(for whatever reason) or who has never worked or works only miniscule hours to be paid benefits(including Housing Benefit or Council Tax benefit) totalling more than the average citizen who works full time. simply because they have dependants. The sooner this disgusting legislation is brought to an abrupt end the better.You pays your money, you take your chance. The EU has a hell of a lot to blame for this as well as our ridiculous Tax Credit system.Someone said to me recently, that in time of war,a coalition government is formed for the good of the country. Well. as we're in the throws of a financial disater, I think it's about time a line was drawn under this benefits for all mentality and that the 3 parties got their head together & decided that enough is enough & started to look after our own citizens before throwing everybodys hard earned tax contributions to every bleeding heart that asks for it.The people who really need help (e.i the elderly, dimension sufferers,etc.) got can't get it because the well is running dry & fast.Bite the bullet come back with your tail between your legs & get real.This country has been a charity for far too long.
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Just to cheer everyone up...there will of course be fewer social housing units to go around when the government agrees to make it even easier to purchase them thus decreasing supply?
The influx of immigrants is, I suggest a direct result of us opening up markets so we can shift more stuff to other nations, the quid quo pro of such an arrangement is that there is free movement of labour. As far as my own anecdotal evidence goes, I come from Lincolnshire there are many East Europeans, Portugese and others working the fields around where I live and from what I can see doing a good job. I am far more hacked off by the tax dodges of Vodafone, Apple, Barclays and others as well as the scandalous waste of public money on failed IT schemes and the PFI schemes which while kept off the government books as a debt will land our children with huge debts in the future.
My opinion is that the system will not provide that much for the "deserving " poor once the feckless, wanton and indolent have been sorted out. However maintaining and supporting a system where e.g. individuals sit in the City of London and get paid vast sums for guessing the future price of commodities or re-bundling mortgages and turning homes into tradeable assets is what needs sorting. It suits those that own the majority of the assets to see those own relatively few to be finding fault with each other.
Oh and just in case the guessing goes wrong, or the re-bundled mortgages turn toxic it is ordinary families that pick up the tab. I don't see the multinationals paying any more in to the pot.
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Fair point, well made.
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My sister lived in Australia for a while & when her marriage broke up she was desperate to come back to the UK as she would have family support.When she arrived and claimed Income Support she was turned down as she didn't satisfy the Habitual Residency Test.She and her daughter stopped with myself and hubby & she was eventually awarded benefit after about 6-8 weeks.Luckily she soon got a job to support herself & moved into private rented accomodation. I'm not sure if they still have this rule to stop people claiming straight away on entering the country, probably not within the EU anyway.
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The influx of foreigners is not all down to the excellent benefits that they get here. A great deal is down to the failure of the Blair government to pass appropriate legislation on immigration prior to the last major expansion of the EU. Only 2 countries did not pass legislation one was Ireland and the other being the UK.
The problem is that no government has taken appropriate action to stop the abuse of the welfare system. It is not only the foreigners but many Brits are also abusing the system. People claiming disability and they play 36 holes of golf every day or they run the line at footie matches. The punishment does not fit the crime. Steal £60k in a benefits fraud and get a 6 months suspended jail term or a 100 hours community service.
I will be accused of talking like a Tory but there is a case for a full review of the welfare system.People should be encouraged to take more responsibility for themselves. There is too much of go and see the social and they will sort you out.I wonder when the welfare state was formed did the founders ever want to create the monster that it has turned into.
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I understand that opening up new markets brings immigration. But I do not recall a whole new set of markets being opened in Africa,the Middle East and Asia. In saying that I am not at all against immigration. It is actually good for the country. What I have an issue with is those people being permitted into the country with no means of supporting themselves and immediately being eligible for a whole load of benefits.
Once they have these benefits do you think for one moment they have any intention of looking for work? Of course not. If they went to work on minimum wage they would have a take home pay of £214 per week which is a whole lot less than the total sum of their benefits. They don't have to work and if they did it would be wholly uneconomical to do so.
There are two problems. One is the non-existent immigration policy. The whole idea that we could allow people into the country to live on our benefit system is ludicrous. The second is that our very own sponger set are allowed to milk the system for years on end unchallenged. The government often come up with initiatives targeting long term unemployment. The majority of which are long term employed because they choose to be. These initiatives are as about as effective as being savaged by a dead sheep!
Rant over, good day to you all.
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Just for the record as was pointed out to me "my friend's neighbour" has nothing to do with this topic but it was announced yesterday she is pregnant again, god help this third child with a mother like her but yet another amount of money for her to be eligible for from taxpayer's money:(
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We had a very short period (thankfully) of both of us being unemployed about 2000/2001 period. Both of us went very reluctantly to the signing on office. Horrible experience and then got a letter telling us we were not eligible for any benefits and to "look to family for financial support". So, for the record, working and paying your taxes and NI and whatever does NOT guarantee you any support when you need it. WTF...Great Britain??? Seriously???
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In Scotland, you have to be under 25 or over 60 to be deemed "priority" homeless which would propel you to the top of the list. If you qualify then you must take the first place they offer you otherwise you are on your own. Also if you have a drug or drink dependency then that also gets you additional points. I became homeless due to marriage breakdown a few years ago and was told that I could reside in a homeless unit for a maximum of 28 days whilst my situation was assessed. As none of the above applied to me, I was told to "find private rented accommodation" myself. All private landlords wanted two months rent up front and the Benefits Agency would not help. I asked if they thought it acceptable to allow a lone woman in her 50's to sleep rough and they shrugged their shoulders. I find it astonishing that any local authority can just offer houses/flats to people at will. I actually went abroad to work, saved a deposit and moved into a private rented flat. I may add that the Benefits Agency did not give me anything towards the deposit nor did they give me a grant for furniture. I received NO help and NO money. How some people do it I do not know.
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Gosh it is all so wrong, I think that was the point I was trying to make in my original posting on the other thread that how do some people manage to do it, your story Ray sounds awful but pleased to hear you had a happy outcome through your own hard work.
Yes totally agree Janmack Great Britain indeed:(