Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
General Topics => All things that have nothing to do with Turkey => Topic started by: stoop on April 17, 2013, 23:12:38 PM
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Not a single arrest today at the funeral.
Well done!
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Still can't get my head around other parts of the country holding "celebrations" but hey-ho.
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A strange world and even stranger up north highlander heed heeee
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Still can't get my head around other parts of the country holding "celebrations" but hey-ho.
We'd one tonight. All fairly low key but a celebration nonetheless - I've left early as got conf. call at 9am turkish time - but its still going strong.
What's the problem?
JF
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Me neither John - I can't understand it but then again we live in a democracy and as you say 'hey ho'.
Pleasantly surprised that the funeral went off without incident. That's what the world would have seen on their TV set I guess.
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I was down there on business and whilst it was busier than normal it was all very calm and respectful.
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Yep I celebrated too, on the day she went and yesterday. I'm no hypocrite, I think the world's a better place with her going. And if you don't understand it then chances are you never suffered under it or ignored what was going on under her leadership, usually against the weak or the weakened.
Mind you my celebrations are a small price to pay compared to the costs of the funeral that I am being asked to bear as a taxpayer, as well as the fawning nonsense we go from the BBC across all channels over the last ten days. I suppose the thing that sticks in my throat the most is her being given a military funeral - by Royal patronage and a nod from the rest of the British establishment - as I observed elsewhere on the forum, my old man always asked when did she serve when she had the chance when it was really needed during world war two. Like Reagan, Bush jnr. (and indeed Clinton) she dodged military service, and that is why her militaristic stand on many issues was all so much cant.
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UBT whatever my feelings on the passing of MT I fail to see how "I think the world's a better place with her going" has no effect on the world with or without her.
And although this subject has been discused in another topic wishing another human being dead or celebrating it I find a difficult concept to understand, she was a politician elected by the people, you, me all all those who choose to vote or indeed those that choose not to.
Back to the subject, another example of how we as a nation can perform to the highest level on these kinds of occasions, well done to all those that took part.
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"And if you don't understand it then chances are you never suffered under it or ignored what was going on under her leadership, usually against the weak or the weakened."
Rubbish IMO. I lived through it and the horrendous years prior to her coming into power.
However this is not the topic to start a discussion on her politics. If you want that then please feel free to start one. I've said before that people will never agree on her leadership so it's best we agree to disagree I think.
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O,h was it someone elses funeral yesterday then? Eeeeh then there was me and my family thinking all them flags at half mast were for my mam,a 90 year old coal miners daughter from Durham who had her funeral yesterday.
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silkmrs,
I hope everything went just as well. It's never nice having to say goodbye to a loved one - no matter what he or she did with their life.
Just a point on the mining though - did you know that 75% of British coal mines were closed between 1900 and 1978?
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Due to protestors in London the world was not left with the impression that Britain was united in grief. For example, this is what CBC had to say:
Yet some clearly disagreed with the bishop's exhortation not to protest. Some people staged silent protests by turning their backs upon Thatcher's coffin. One man held a banner declaring "Rest in shame." Arguments also broke out in the crowd along the route between Thatcher supporters and opponents.
So, thanks to the London protestors. Well done.
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A very small minority though Colwyn. Didn't even register on many reports at all.
Not one arrest tells the story that the protesters did so without using violence which was one of the main worries I think.
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I don't suppose there were many Thatcher supporters at the Goldthorpe celebrations. The point was not so much about the numbers but about underlining the message. The New York Times summary of their article said (I quote it in full):
The ceremonial funeral with military honors for Margaret Thatcher has divided British opinion, much as the former prime minister stirred passions in her lifetime.
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I agree Stoop, whoever the deceased is there will always be grief from someone, even if it's only grief at the waste of a life, or the life that person should have lived, in those who have gone down a wrong path.
I'm not much bothered by Mrs Thatcher, but I do remember the lights going off every night in my house in the early 70's when I was a young teenager, when I believe Heath was in power, but I don't recall this furore when he died. I do have concerns about the messages this sends out to youngsters, for whom basic respect for others seems in very short supply.
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Of course Stoop my great grandfather was Alexander Bell, the first person to ever get a pit pension, they bought it to the house to him. He lived until 6 weeks off his 102nd birthday bless him. Keir hardy attended meetings at his home. Been spoonfed the mines,the union and the Labour party from as long asI could remember.
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Angela I agree with the messages sent to the youngsters of today regarding respect especially for those who have just passed away regardless of who they are.
Slikmrs I am sure that most people would have wished that you Mam was shown the respect that she deserved. I hope that your day went as well as it could considering the occasion.
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I remember that too Angela. We had the three day working week in the early 70's as well. We had to show customers around our supermarket using torches and hand operated checkouts (they had a handle that could be attached to make them work - one person operated the checkout and another turned the handle).
Also I remember vividly the Winter of Discontent in 1978/9. We had customers fighting over basic items such as toilet rolls due to the drivers strike.
Oh happy days ;)
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I don't suppose there were many Thatcher supporters at the Goldthorpe celebrations. The point was not so much about the numbers but about underlining the message. The New York Times summary of their article said (I quote it in full):
The ceremonial funeral with military honors for Margaret Thatcher has divided British opinion, much as the former prime minister stirred passions in her lifetime.
Thing is Colwyn - it was a labour government that organised the funeral many years ago. I'm not sure but I think it was agreed cross party just like they do with all the funerals for ex- Prime Ministers. The country picks up the bill for all of them as far as I know.
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Thing is Stoop -Her convicted criminal son Mark,who spent her declining years living in a different country is reported to have at least £70 million stashed away in offshore accounts.The bill should drop through his letter flap not ours.She divided the United Kingdom, That's some achievement. !!!
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Why should her funeral not be paid for by the country? Every other Prime Minister is buried at the cost of the state. I didn't particularly like Harold Wilson but never questioned who paid for the Memorial Service at Westminster Abbey.
I also understand her family are paying some of the costs anyway.
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Apparently, the Thatcher family put 2 million into the funeral of their own money. However, whether you liked her or not, she had been out of power a long time and was an elderly lady whoses family where there to mourn her and carry out her wishes for the funeral.
I have to say I am proud to be British when I saw the wonderful show we put on with the funeral. No one does this like the British. I heard this morning that lots of foreigners are now coming to Britian for a holiday after watching the funeral, and being so impressed with Britain.
I would also say lets protest about the money it's costing us to keep Arab Terrorists in this country, or the Aid we send to Pakistan and India (India a country with it's own space programme).
I also remember the 3 day week and the power cuts, having to sit with candles in the evening when the power was put off... What misery that was >:(and something that has never happened again. ;)
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Well Colwyn, I was on my camera position for Sky from 0500 to 1300 just outside St. Pauls and looked everywhere for you to no avail. Be fascinated to know the concensus of opinion amongst your fellow imbibers at your local. Whatever people feel about the whole event however controversial, I felt it was a triumph of organisation and overwhelmingly polite and respectful. I have absolutely no idea of my tax contribution on this but most people there seemed unconcerned about this.
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Apparently, the Thatcher family put 2 million into the funeral of their own money. However, whether you liked her or not, she had been out of power a long time and was an elderly lady whoses family where there to mourn her and carry out her wishes for the funeral.
In which case Jacqui they should have kept it as a private family affair which did not involve the public or the public purse.
I have to say I am proud to be British when I saw the wonderful show we put on with the funeral. No one does this like the British. I heard this morning that lots of foreigners are now coming to Britian for a holiday after watching the funeral, and being so impressed with Britain.
Yes once the proud for being the workshop of the world, now we are proud of being able to put on a good 'show' of a funeral, somethings gone wrong somewhere??
I would also say lets protest about the money it's costing us to keep Arab Terrorists in this country, or the Aid we send to Pakistan and India (India a country with it's own space programme). Wouldn't disgaree there, particualrly as both India and Pakisatn think it is more important to have a nuclear deterent than feed and educate their own people!!
I also remember the 3 day week and the power cuts, having to sit with candles in the evening when the power was put off... What misery that was >:(and something that has never happened again. ;) Oh yes I can remember the misery of it all, we couldn't go to the local discos and mum couldn't watch coronation street ... some misery that!!! You see I remember that it was a rolling black out designed to ensure that people could still work, so the bulk of the cuts was in the early evening.
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Stoop & Scorcher
A recent post from each of you is directed at me and goes on the comment about the tax spend on the funeral. I might, or might not, be aerated by this but (as far as I remember) I've not mentioned it in any of my posts. Perhaps you are confusing me with other critics on this topic? You know, in a generalized "Ah he's one of those!" stereotype.
As far the view from the Masons - I didn't go there yesterday as Hilary and I were on our weekly granddaughter sitting duties. However, I think I can predict, with a reasonable degree of confidence, that the reaction would have been ... divided. Thatcher & consensus? Surely you didn't expect so Scorcher? I was there this lunchtime though. If you want to know what impact the funeral, and your undoubtedly top notch camera work, made on the consciousness of the locals you can look at the poem quoted by Kevin Sowten in the main Calis Beach section - the bit about the hole that is left when you pull your hand out water.
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Why should her funeral not be paid for by the country? Every other Prime Minister is buried at the cost of the state. I didn't particularly like Harold Wilson but never questioned who paid for the Memorial Service at Westminster Abbey.
I think there is a difference between paying for a full blown state funeral and a memorial service. As to your earlier point, the funeral arrangements for Thatch was agreed and it wasn't a state one - even she didn't want it - but Cameron had the whole affair captured and overblown for his own political purposes, not sure it has had the desired effect he wanted on the opinion polls though!
I also understand her family are paying some of the costs anyway.
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I agree with Stoop, she was our PM and as such should have the same funeral as others before her. This is becoming very bitter and personal. She was an old lady who deserved a good send off like anyone else's mum or granny regardless of anything that happened throughout her life. In power she did what had to be done and if it hadn't have been her, it would have been someone else. She wasn't alone, she had a government behind her, most (some secretly) who openly admired her for her balls.
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Not to mention the small matter of having been democratically elected by the British people not once by three times.
PS I have already answered the minority vote issue.
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Scorcher having worked in London for many years it was always my experience when events like this occurred - not those that had a bank holiday - that there was those who came just fr the event - the consensus amongst them was always clear - but for the overwhelming majority in London, living and working, the consensus was clear .......... the whole thing was designed to muck up your day. So the best thing to do was get in early and hope that the event went quickly and without disruption. Now which of these consensuses did you observe stuck in your camera gantry, or are you just being partial in your observations?
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Not to mention the small matter of having been democratically elected by the British people not once by three times.
Not to forget that dear old Harold Wilson was elected democratically four times, and he didn't have all this fuss.
PS I have already answered the minority vote issue.
Yes H you have responded on the minority vote issue, not sure whether you have answered the point though!!
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" Oh yes I can remember the misery of it all, we couldn't go to the local discos and mum couldn't watch coronation street ... some misery that!!! You see I remember that it was a rolling black out designed to ensure that people could still work, so the bulk of the cuts was in the early evening."
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In Liverpool as the rest of the country power cuts where staggered to different times during the day. I remember power going off in the office I worked in as a junior. No light, electric typewriters would not work and we all had to sit and do collating just for something to do. I also remember my Father who was a shop steward in Tate & Lyles when all the machinery closed down and the workers coming home. My Mother's office was the same. So the power cuts WHERE at all different timesand not in the evenings. Yes, it was miserable to come home in the evening and watch the clock until the power went off at the appointed time. It was also a worry for us that my Grandmother was living alone and did not understand why she had no power as the television was her entertainment every evening. We set her up with battery lamps etc, as we where scared she would trip over something and hurt herself.
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I agree with Stoop, she was our PM and as such should have the same funeral as others before her. This is becoming very bitter and personal. She was an old lady who deserved a good send off like anyone else's mum or granny regardless of anything that happened throughout her life.
Lotty you are right even a controversial figure like Thatcher deserved a good send off from her family and friends, but they gave up that right when for their own reasons they over-extended it into the public arena and then expected it to be funded by the public purse, you cannot really be surprised when there is a widespread reaction to the it all, particularly from those who had opposed her and all she stood for.
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Colwyn,
I was replying to Kevin3 with regards to the funeral cost being paid out of our taxes.
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A significant amount if the cost of the funeral was to police all the threats of protester riots. Plus her estate also contributed to the costs. As David Cameron said to David Dimbleby on TV, the funeral was all arranged by Tony Blair years ago.
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USB - the funeral arrangements were made by Blair and his cabinet when Mrs T showed signs of health problems in her 70's.
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As for Wilson. It's a pity his funeral wasn't staged in the conditions his government created in 1978! He'd still be waiting to be cremated as the workers were all on strike! Bodies were piling up in the same way the rubbish was in the streets.
He might have got done round about June I think.
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Going back to the events yesterday - it's heartwarming to hear that the few who protested were drowned our by Mrs T's supporters clapping and giving her three cheers.
She would have loved that I think :)
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Truly touching. :'( :'( :'(
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All political opinions aside it was still for all those around the world who saw some or all the broadcast a moving experience. I am not a religious person but when the choir sang from the angelic sounds of the choir boys and the deep sound of the bass it is still something that is a unique audiovisual experience that that as a country we are able to put on and I think we should be proud of.
Regardless who paid ;) ;)
A lot better experience than watching a false parade of misguided North Korean soldiers who are only in the army so they get fed!
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Truly touching. :'( :'( :'(
That looks like three pipe smoking Harold Wilsons ;)
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As for Wilson. It's a pity his funeral wasn't staged in the conditions his government created in 1978! He'd still be waiting to be cremated as the workers were all on strike! Bodies were piling up in the same way the rubbish was in the streets.
Myth Buster one - only one place in the country where bodies were not being buried - Liverpool - the rest of the country funerals were taking place as usual. Oh and I thought Sunny Jim was Prime Minister by then. Still accuracy was never something that the Thatcherite apologists were good at, but a good old quote from the Daily Mail never goes a miss Stoop.
He might have got done round about June I think.
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USB - the funeral arrangements were made by Blair and his cabinet when Mrs T showed signs of health problems in her 70's.
If true, and there is significant doubt that what was delivered was previously agreed, then shame on Blair and his cabinet.
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As for Wilson. It's a pity his funeral wasn't staged in the conditions his government created in 1978! He'd still be waiting to be cremated as the workers were all on strike! Bodies were piling up in the same way the rubbish was in the streets.
He might have got done round about June I think.
Steady on old son, you don't want to be accused of making political attacks on someone whose death is mourned by his friends and family?
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A significant amount if the cost of the funeral was to police all the threats of protester riots.
Really and where did you get this story? Any way Lotty you should learn that there is a difference between a protest and a riot, the first is people's right in this country, and the second is something the police in London have a poor record in attending. You see its not like it was in Thatchers day when she sent the Met into mining areas on overnight allowances and double time!!
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Of course, Britain's greatest peacetime Prime Minister of the 20th century didn't get a national ceremonial funeral. And neither did the second greatest. They were also great wartime leaders - although not in a prime ministerial role. But then they weren't Tories, were they?
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It was his party even if he wasn't PM at that time.
Try adding Manchester as well :)
I forgot about dear old Callaghan - the man who's government had to go to the IMF for a bail out for the only time in British history.
As someone once said - Socialism is fine until you run out of someone else's money :)
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Of course, Britain's greatest peacetime Prime Minister of the 20th century didn't get a national ceremonial funeral.
According to some she just did :)
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It was his party even if he wasn't PM at that time.
Try adding Manchester as well :) No let's not do that
I forgot about dear old Callaghan - the man who's government had to go to the IMF for a bail out for the only time in British history. Yes and they paid it off too, and left the country in the black, what did Thatcher and her government leave behind in terms of economic legacy?
As someone once said - Socialism is fine until you run out of someone else's money :) Bit like statements such as creating a shareholding democracy where we would all get richer from the privatised wealth creation (M Thatcher) ... only thing is neither happened, wealth was concentrated into fewer hands, and as the Thatcher money trick started to unwind we ended up paying for it by having to bail out the banks, and put the country into the longest economic slump since the thirties.
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According to some she just did :)
They are in error.
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No-ones going to win this, lets all agree to differ. I'm just off now for a quiet cup of tea.
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I wasn't looking to win, but to simply to make a point or two, and of course enjoy myself along the way.... which i have. Anyway I've just had a shout from Mrs Tickets that I have got to come in for my tea, but if I am good I'll be allowed out to play again after ;)
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It's an amazing fact but true Harold Wilson closed more mines in his two terms in office that Margaret Thatcher did in her three.
However, when all the arguments die down. History, as I have said before will mark Mrs Thatcher of one of the great Prime Ministers of our time. I did not agree with all her policies but I have great respect for her and admire her grit and determination, she also was not in the job to line her own pockets like many of today's M.P's.
It's strange now to think how unpopular Winston Churchill was in his time but now he is idolised by many as a great man and Prime Minister.
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An extremely personal question UBT - do you vote in General Elections.
I genuinely will not object if you choose not to answer that question.
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Well there's me on page 2 of today's Daily Telegraph middle picture doing my bit for Queen,Country and CBF. Concentrating on the onlookers for signs of dissent and got sidetracked by events and ever mindful of your kind expectation of me Colwyn.
I hold no brief for her as it happens because I was made redundant from Thames Television in her purge of the unions and she was also very cross about our transmission of our "Death on the Rock".However, as the gun carriage and casket passed and on reflection immediately afterwards I thought how ironic it was that a last gesture to me was to enable me to get paid to film her passing. In truth, I found the event to be very moving and was gratified that her dissenters were sensible in their protestations - I wish her peace.
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An interesting question that I obviously do not know the answer but .....
Would Mrs T have bailed out the banks like Brown did?
I'm not sure she would have you know.
Wasn't it Brown who virtually forced the Halifax/TSB merger causing the meltdown of the latter? Could he have caused it or shall we blame Mrs T?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/4632804/Gordon-Brown-could-have-saved-HBOS-without-need-for-Lloyds-merger.html
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You seem to floundering around to keep the argument going now, Stoop. I don't think any historians will be debating the greatness of Brown as a prime minister. Don't see the point of dragging him in here. What about Stanley Baldwin? Dull day in Leeds, is it?
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Bit brighter in York perhaps ?
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Stoop. Thatcher destroyed manufacturing and engineering stating that Britains future lay in the service industries such as err' BANKING.
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I've had my tea and I am back out to play.
Stoop we got into a financial mess because, as Kevin pointed out there was a Thatcher myth that we could survive indeed prosper as an economy based on services, in particular financial services, then and this is an important point we then started to deregulate the financial sector, so putting the uk economy at double risk, an over dependence upon financial services - concentrated into fewer and bigger financial institutions - and the weakest financial regulation. And unsuprisingly the inevitable collapse happened, as a result of poor economic policy emanating from the Thatcher era, and brown and Blair have to take their share of the blame for continuing with such economic folly.
H yes that is a strange question, and I am not sure why you ask the question unless you intend to suck me in to a further set of increasingly closed questions, but go on for your information I have voted in every election - local national euro referendum - since 1974. You see I see it as a matter of rights and duties, if you have the right to vote it is your duty to vote or at the very least attend the polling station.
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Oh yes Stoop and would Thatcher have bailed out the banks. The answer is a very big yes, what would the alternative have been for her, let them crash or perhaps nationalise them, neither option would she have chosen.
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"Thatcher,the champion of commerce and enterprise" Bullsh#t. Anyone remember Freddie Laker and Skytrain.? The working mans champion,In 1978 he got me from Gatwick to New York and back for £57 and was at Gatwick loading the luggage. Too cheap said his competitors so they lobbied Thatcher, she lobbied Reagan and he forced the US banks to forclose on his loans and shut him down.They tried the same with Branson but Laker helped him see them off. If Laker had succeeded I do n't think we would be paying cartel prices to get to Turkey. A total bunch of Spivs.
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Nothing to do with the DC 10 at all then ?
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"Thatcher,the champion of commerce and enterprise" Bullsh#t. Anyone remember Freddie Laker and Skytrain.? The working mans champion,In 1978 he got me from Gatwick to New York and back for £57 and was at Gatwick loading the luggage. Too cheap said his competitors so they lobbied Thatcher, she lobbied Reagan and he forced the US banks to forclose on his loans and shut him down.They tried the same with Branson but Laker helped him see them off. If Laker had succeeded I do n't think we would be paying cartel prices to get to Turkey. A total bunch of Spivs.
Time to read some history mate - Laker tried to start up Skytrain in 1971. (wiki)However, under intense pressure from the established airlines, including Laker's archrival and next-door Gatwick neighbour BCal, against a backdrop of huge losses and overcapacity on the North Atlantic in the aftermath of the global energy crisis caused by the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries' oil embargo, the UK's Labour government of that era decided to revoke Laker's licence on 29 July 1975.
Read more - it was more to do with the DC10 being grounded for safety reasons, rivals getting together (probably illegally) to undercut him and the fact the company was £250m in debt, that caused him to go bust.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Laker
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Specifically,what did Mrs. Thatcher do, to "destroy" British industry?