Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
Calis Beach Forum => Expat & Property Owners Q and A Forum => Topic started by: ArtyMar on September 05, 2013, 11:26:01 AM
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Catastrophe! The worst has happened. Our builder/agent DeskaGlobal has gone bankrupt. We have our land Tapu but not our building Tapu which I have been trying to get for the past year. The electricity for our villa has been stopped - water may be cut soon. We have a honeymoon couple booked for 14 nights from 30 September. They want a luxury villa with private pool, not overlooked - near sea, shops, transport. I said I would try to find something suitable, as we have had to let them down. We too are in trouble as we have booked to go to our villa on 16th leaving on 30th, but we will look for a hotel with pool near Calis Beach. Recommendations for that too, please!
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I'm so sorry to read this.
It really is time the Turkish government looked into these builders.
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Would they really turn down an overlooked one with flights booked and just weeks to go?!
You need to get moving to change your tapu from land to home with living permission. 5 years after initial approval it expires and then things really get expensive.
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I'm meeting our lawyer when we arrive and we'll go together to the Ciftlik Beledisi office and where ever else we need to go. It seems we owe electricity and water bills (at builder rates) and of course, we'll pay additional Tapu fees that our builder might normally pay - anything to get our Tapu!
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Sorry to hear thıs Moıra . If there ıs anythıng I can do let me know.
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Can you not get the bills paid or is the TAPU stopping you from using the house?
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We can use the villa but the electricity box (servicing all 5 villas on the estate) has been removed today (we are told by our neighbours, owners of one of the other villas who are there at the moment) - so there is no electricity- and maybe soon, no water.
We do not have up-to-date utility bills from Deska and as we don't have our Tapu, presumably all bills will be at the higher rate paid by builders. We have paid up everything to do with building, but not utility bills. We have part of our Tapu, the Tapu Senedi (although the numbers on it are different to our contract; Deska says that's because the division of the original larger plot into smaller ones caused the change in numbers so the ADA no and Parsel number are different to what is on our original building contract. We have been told by Deska that we now have the correct Ada and Parsel numbers. Don't know if this is correct or more b-s.
We would pay all our utility bills (if sent!) if we could be sure of getting our full, accurate building Tapu - but don't want to send good money after bad! We have been using the villa up to now but we're due to fly out on 16 September for 2 weeks, with another 2 week let for tenants directly after us. I've returned their money and am looking for alternative accommodation for them.
Problem is, I don't know why Deska have not given us our building Tapu - they say they do not yet have our 'habitation' papers???? More b-s? I've been told that they have another unissued 80+ tapes - but this may be rumour.
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You need to get moving to change your tapu from land to home with living permission. 5 years after initial approval it expires and then things really get expensive.
Scunner from what date does the 5 years apply? The builder began building ours and 4 others on the plot in 2009 - it was supposed to be finished by 30-6-10, but was not finished until over a year later. We paid the last of completion at end of 2011. The land Tapu was finally issued by Deska when we were there in May (I refused to leave the office until it was given). This Tapu reads Tarihi 07/05/2013. Will the 5 years be from that date, do you think? Another thing, our original contract stated that our Parcel details were 79 ADA PLOT 6, but the land Tapu gives the ADA No as 386, and the Parsel No as 3. Deska says the discrepancy is because the original numbers on the contract applied at that time of building whereas afterwards, when the overall plot was subdivided into individual plots, the new numbers apply. Could that be true? Thanks for your help!
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Definitely NOT five years from 07/05/2013 - more likely that is 5 years from the date of approval. That would make the permission 2008 which fits in rightish with beginning the physical build in 2009.
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Hi ArtMar, really sorry to hear of your problems :(
I read recently that an Extension of the Planning permission may be granted, if applied for before the original term expires. There is also a new law which now places the responsibility for paying the costs to issue the Habitation cert back on the builder/developers shoulders.
You need to check at the Tapu office if the position & parcel No of your property, corresponds to the plans they hold on the project.
Good luck.
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What a nightmare for you, I am so sorry. Much as I love Turkey, I am sickened by the authorities attitude to all the people who have similar problems.
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When builders go bust in the UK you are faced with same problems.I wasted many years trying to get monies owed from customers how went down the pan then to see them start again weeks later.. >:( >:(
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I hope this is not going to be another like the Savoyboy saga.
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Quote: (Would they really turn down an overlooked one with flights booked and just weeks to go?!
You need to get moving to change your tapu from land to home with living permission. 5 years after initial approval it expires and then things really get expensive).
Yep!!! 16,500TL from personal experience, no doubt a slight possibility od some ripping off in this figure!
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I hope this is not going to be another like the Savoyboy saga.
I certainly hope not would be such a shame but i have everything crossed for you ArtyMar I hope you get it all sorted at a reasonable price!
Dave
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Thank you, all for your support and especially for tips and personal experience that can help! I'm worried about the 5 year lapse
You need to get moving to change your tapu from land to home with living permission. 5 years after initial approval it expires and then things really get expensive.
as I don't know how to "get moving"! Talking, emailing etc to our builder is useless as they always come up with an excuse. Our lawyer has contacted them to no avail. To sue in court may be long, expensive and ultimately fruitless - we don't know.
Does anyone know a tough lawyer who has had a lot of experience with getting Tapus from builders who don't or can't give them? We've been told that the Tapus (as many as 80 or more) are withheld by the government/officialdom because the company has not paid its bills. We're caught in the middle.
Does anyone know if going to the Beledisi in Ciftlik together with the lawyer, prepared to pay our utility bills even though these are still in the builder's name, and armed with our Land Tapu, might get us our habitation certificate and building Tapu? Deska wants us to pay utility to Deska. Is the Tapu office separate from the
Beledisi? How does all this work?
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Deska wants us to pay utility to Deska.
Deska had gone bankrupt on page 1
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Hi Artymar. I can't answer many of your questions but I can say that there is a lawyer who is often recommended on here when people have this kind of trouble. I know I'd use her if I had to.
Şule Beder
http://www.sulebeder.av.tr/
Good luck.
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Yep Sule is your best bet.Dont pay anything to Deska if they have gone bust. Ciftlik Belediye are for your water and council tax bills . Aydem for your electric. Tapu office is upstairs in the Fethiye Belediye office next to the PTT . Who is your solicitor at the moment?.
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Scunner, I was told by another villa owner on our estate that Deska had gone bankrupt- they said that someone had seen furniture being carted out from their offices- then the electricity to villas was cut. I then tried Deska's main telephone number for 2 days but got no answer (normally it is answered immediately). Then I got through to our letting agent who works for them on her mobile and she said business was as usual - all most peculiar - maybe they are in financial difficulties and operating on a shoe string but not actually bankrupt - don't know! All I know for sure is that we still don't have our building Tapu. Our Turkish lawyer is Hayel Ozenc - hope she is well clued up on Tapus!
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Hi ArtyMar, as Quackers said, please don't pay Deska anything! (I'm sure you won't ;))
I'm not sure you need a lawyer at this stage, what you need is to find out is 'what is the real position' of Deska & your property status. This can be done quite easily with the help of a Turkish speaker with some knowledge of how the Tapu/planning offices work, a court trustworthy Translator for instance. A lawyer will probably only use a 'runner' at this stage but will probably charge you full wack for the info gathered.
I've never heard of your lawyer (that may be a very good sign ;)) maybe someone else has & could give you some feed-back. But if, Deska, are in serious trouble, you'll need someone with Teeth & experience in difficult cases to handle it for you. You'll need to think as you would when engaging a solicitor at home + factor in TIT, what experience/track record do they have in the area You need help with, what cases can they prove they've won etc. And, make a written contract with them 'detailing' what it is you are paying them to do, don't leave room for ambiguity....
Best wishes
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Such excellent advice, Cef. Thank you so much.
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I'm not sure you need a lawyer at this stage, what you need is to find out is 'what is the real position' of Deska & your property status. This can be done quite easily with the help of a Turkish speaker with some knowledge of how the Tapu/planning offices work, a court trustworthy Translator for instance. A lawyer will probably only use a 'runner' at this stage but will probably charge you full wack for the info gathered.
Cef or anyone else, can you recommend someone with these skills? Perhaps someone who could also drive us to whichever places we need to go?
Again, thanks for all your support and advice. I'm afraid this is turning out to be another Savoyboy saga :(
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Been and looked at your villa, garden and pool this morning. All Ok. Gardens llok good, grass has been cut and watered, pool clean and clear and the gardner/ poolman came ın yesterday. Cleaners were ın a couple of days ago. Hope thıs helps to put your mınd at rest a bıt. Water bıll ın meter for 2012 and lookıng at the meter readıng from then ,ıf you have not paıd a bıll sınce Jan you wıll have about 170tl to pay.
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Cef or anyone else, can you recommend someone with these skills? Perhaps someone who could also drive us to whichever places we need to go?
Again, thanks for all your support and advice. I'm afraid this is turning out to be another Savoyboy saga :(
Firstly to be absolutely clear, I repeat this is not going to be cheap and you should make your mind up to that. If your five year timescale since the building project was approved has expired (and my feeling is it has) then you will need to do a bit more than take a tour of different official buildings and office like you would if you did your own residency for example. You cannot do this on your own - you can possibly check up the situation but there's no way you can get your HC yourself but feel free to try.
There will be expenses for which you will get no receipts, if you get my meaning. There will be expenses you will have to pay (SSK being the normal one - like UK National Insurance for all the builders who worked on building your property) which financially distressed developers and builders never seem to have paid - it has to be paid, or no HC, simple as that - and guess who is about to foot that hefty bill.
Snowtop has given you an guide for the cost and as is the way with Turkey, it could be a bit less or a lot more - but the certain part is that although HC is included when the builder dreams up the selling price for the villa (i.e. you already paid once for it), only one person will be paying through the nose for it is going to be you.
All bad news I realise. If you want a recommendation to try and sort it out and get your Tapu, I used Ozlen (Ozergin) who's husband did all the leg work and payments - some official, some possibly not - and they gave me a "maximum possible price" which I paid. A couple of months later I received final tapu, HC and £1700 back. Had they charged me maximum price I could never have found out about the £1700, they didn't need to give me it back and that is one of the reasons (but by no means the only one) that I tell people on here that you can trust Ozlen.
That's not to say your current lawyer can't do it. Similar to someone earlier in the topic, it is not a name I recognise.
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I'm not sure you need a lawyer at this stage, what you need is to find out is 'what is the real position' of Deska & your property status. This can be done quite easily with the help of a Turkish speaker with some knowledge of how the Tapu/planning offices work, a court trustworthy Translator for instance. A lawyer will probably only use a 'runner' at this stage but will probably charge you full wack for the info gathered.
Cef or anyone else, can you recommend someone with these skills? Perhaps someone who could also drive us to whichever places we need to go?
Again, thanks for all your support and advice. I'm afraid this is turning out to be another Savoyboy saga :(
Hi Artymar, I've just posted this link on the 'POA' thread as well: It lists what paperwork you need to be looking for (inc possible extension), always good to have an idea yourself of what's actually happening when like me, your Turkish is confined to simply pleasantries, much less confusing. Volkan has a good reputation in the area :).
My view was for you to gain the basic information on your situation yourself (with help :)), you would then be in a position to decide your next step, if you need a lawyer (that's a probably :(), which lawyer is best & most capable for you/your case. Lawyers, much like, Agents, Restaurant's, Hotels etc, etc, are as good/bad as an individual's experience with them or as the saying goes "As good as their last Sale/Deal" ;).
The only lawyer I've yet to hear any negative comments about is Sule Beder :)
http://voicesnewspaper.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=5913
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Big thanks to you, Cef, Scunner, wonderful Quackers who is so kind the thought of her brings tears to my eyes (and we haven't actually met), and others for all your help! Yesterday I phoned Sule and tomorrow, Monday, she will be doing some searches to find out some of the bad news e.g. how much we may have to fork out to pay Deskas charges that may have been put against our Tapu and habitation cert charges. My previous lawyer, Hayel, came with us when we were out in May, to go to Deska offices and try to get Tapu - we got the Land part but as the numbers are different to our contract, we still have to have this checked. Sule would get a 'map engineer' (presumably what we would call a surveyor) to check these details against the actual land by visiting the villa.
Decided to go with Sule and after speaking with her, have even more confidence, as she seems very professional and her English is good - costly though! Hayel was so sweet and understanding, got email from her today - sure she's honest and would no doubt do a good job, but equally sure that Sule is more experienced. Hope Sule knows whose palm to grease if that is required to help matters along, Scunner ;)
We're poised to hear the worst :(
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wonderful Quackers who is so kind the thought of her brings tears to my eyes (and we haven't actually met)
Ah well if you buy in Koca Calis you get our Quackers as part of the deal :D
Sule is fantastic, you are in good hands. I've seen her in action and remember thinking how glad I was that it wasn't me she was representing against. To use a phrase of my wife's, she doesn't miss and hit the wall. Like a good accountant, the more they cost the better off you are.
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Have everything crossed for you Artymar :)
Good luck x
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I really hope you get a good result. Wishing you Good Luck.
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Thanks, all! It is so good to have your support. Fingers crossed for you, too, Savoyboy.
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Wow Artymar!! You've really taken the bull by the horns. Good for you! I hope it pays off quickly. Rooting for you.
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Thanks, SuzzPuss! Heard a bit of good news from Sule today that Deska has not taken out a loan against our property - yet to hear more after she's done further investigations - what further debts they may have that are holding up the process. :( Everything crossed! It's amazing to me that they don't seem to care about their reputation!
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Oh that's fantastic!! Can she stop them doing it in the future before you've got hold of it?
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OMG! What a dreadful thought! I'll email right away to Sule.
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Will you settle down ArtyMar!
Sule is on it.
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Easier said than done, Scunner!
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Yes I know that better than quite a few. Of course you will worry, but you are in good hands.
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Yes, and it is a comfort to know that one is in the hands of an expert. On tenterhooks to hear further news from her and will only relax fully when we have our Tapu and habitation certificate, as we were promised on our contract :'(