Calis Beach and Fethiye Turkey Discussion Forum
Calis Beach Forum => Calis Beach Questions and Information => Topic started by: tamd on July 15, 2016, 21:54:37 PM
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What's going on ??
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http://www.calis-beach.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=61257.0;topicseen
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Dictators have a shelf life. ;)
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Someone told me a 'joke' to say
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This is no joke live on bbc news right now, military trying to take down the president coup on going in Istanbul and Ankara, all fights into Istanbul and Ankara stopped.
Keep safe people.
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All over then :)
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Malaysian Airways who operate Sabihe Gokcen airport on the Asian side of Istanbul say they have no plans to stop flights at the moment. EasyJet use that airport. Not sure if I would want to fly there at the moment though.
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Anyone been out and about yet
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British Airways have cancelled all flights to Turkey
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British Airways fly into Ataturk airport on the European side of Istanbul so I am not surprised they have stopped flying there considering what is going on.
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Havent been out. We live behind Carrefour ( now closed down) and have hardly heard any traffic.
Heard birds singing this morning and even our neighbours are quiet.
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just been out for the bread
A bit quiet but life goes on in Fethiye
Funny though the tea house at the bottom of our street is normally full of older guys, nearly mt today
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For the cbf members who are not on facebook i have just read a very interesting post on last nights coup i will try and copy the link, it does make an interesting read...
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http://www.dailystormer.com/was-the-turkish-coup-an-erdogan-hoax/
Hope the article is here ok,,,sorry not much of a techy type...
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Although he says he does not like social media he was able to speak to the nation on a smartphone belonging to a CNN Turkey reporter which was pointed at a camera.
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Just to sum it all up:
Erdogan made a miraculous escape. His hotel got attacked just after he left (isn't he fortunate). Hulusi Akar, chief of Turkish armed forces (and one of RTE's best buddies), got kidnapped by coup military but he miraculously was released as well.
How fortunate that those two great leaders made it without any harm.
Unfortunately the hundreds of soldiers that got killed and the 3000 military that got detained weren't that lucky.
I'm no expert but to me it seems that the country is under great threat and the sooner RTE changes the presidential system, the better it is...
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Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson has said the UK will stand by Erdogan (and privately he hopes RTE will forget the poem where Boris described him as having sexual relations with a goat and called him a w*nkerer).
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About one hour ago 2700 judges got fired.
Binali is saying that the constitution should be changed soon to prevent another coup and they will investigate whether capital punishment should be reinstated again.
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Dutchie, I realize that circulating conspiracy theories is one of the most popular pastimes in Turkey - almost as much so as smoking - and I generally dismiss them out of hand. However, this "coup" looks a very amateurish, small-scale affair not anything like previous military interventions in the public life of Turkey. Even if was the coup attempt the Government presents it as, it is certainly playing straight into Erdogan's game plan. What is next? Anti-AKP protesters to be rounded up and imprisoned as terrorists? HDP MPs found to have links with the coup planners and removed from Parliament? Calls for a "Strong Man" to be given powers to save Turkey from treason plots? Coronation of new
Sultan Super President?
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Spot on Colwyn.
Anti-AKP and followers of Fetullah Gulen are being arrested for quite some time now because of their membership of FETO which stands for Fethullahçı Terör Örgütü (Fetullah terrorism organization).
According to the people in charge, yesterdays events showed once more that Fetullah is a terrorist.
Edit: and if capital punishment is reinstated then they will have even more power.
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Examining the detail, I discover the great Bosforus Bridge was seized by 50 soldiers who then surrendered to civilians armed with sticks. Is this the military force that is supposed to defend Turkey against its many hostile neighbours?
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It was a set up I think! Who in their right mind starts a coup not knowing where the man they want is staying?
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They knew where he was staying. They actually attacked his hotel but were 15 minutes too late because he had already left.
Such a coincidence.
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There are a lot of possibilities here and we haven't got enough information yet - if ever.
1. It was an attempted coup just as presented.
2. It was an attempted coup that the conspirators thought was backed by a lot of other officers who got cold feet and backed out at the end.
3. It was an attempted coup that the military high command knew about and reported to the Government and were told to let it go ahead and then crush it.
4. It was a set-up where many lives were sacrificed..
5. Anything else CBF members can suggest.
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6. Fetullah Gulen and Obama were behind it all.
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About one hour ago 2700 judges got fired.
Binali is saying that the constitution should be changed soon to prevent another coup and they will investigate whether capital punishment should be reinstated again.
Please can someone explain to me the supposed justification for doing this? What are people being told are the reasons and what are the real reasons do you think?
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He doens't need to justify anything. RTE does what he wants.
This has been going on for years, nothing new.
3 or 4 years ago thousands of school directors got fired overnight during their summer holidays and they all got replaced by RTE's people.
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There are plans to change the constitution to create a Presidential system with one aim in mind. To ensure that HE remains in power indefinitely and in control of everything. By removing the judges and any other opponents, or voices of opposition by imprisoning them just helps pave the way.
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Welcome back Nichola, good break?
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I suppose I am naive in thinking an explanation for removing the judges would be required. Hard to imagine nobody would question and ask why. I think I understand where this is heading but can't quite see the relevance/importance of the judges specifically in his quest for power? I'm probably missing the obvious - sorry.
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3000 soldiers have been arrested and they will be taken to court.
But this isn't just about the soldiers. It's also about the journalists, teachers, any kind of opposing voice basically.
Nothing better than your own people ruling the courts.
And don't be surpised when capital punishment is introduced again.
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If Theresa May or a member of the royal family broke the law they would be put in front of a judge and punished by the laws of the land. No judge, no punishment by law.
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I think I understand where this is heading but can't quite see the relevance/importance of the judges specifically in his quest for power? I'm probably missing the obvious - sorry.
When the AKP were first elected in Turkey they made a big fuss about the possibility of a military coup. Two huge cases were launched, Sledgehammer and Ergenekon, that led to trials of a great many military officers (including generals), lawyers and journals who were charged with conspiring, as part of a secret secularist organization - "Ergenekon" - to overthrow the government. After many years the charges were dismissed.
What is the betting that the sacked judges include those that made the "wrong" decision and got in Erdogan's way?
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As we were writing about this, another 110 judges and prosecutors have been arrested and their houses are being searched.
Charges are membership of the terrorist organisation of Fetullah Gulen.
Surprise :)
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The leaders of other countries, including ours, should do a bit of soul searching and ask themselves why they are giving him
an air of credibility. Would they allow the things that are happening in Turkey, on a daily basis, to happen in their own countries.??
The red lines of the EU basic principles get kicked into the long grass when they become inconvenient. Turkey is headed in one direction. :( :(
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Which is?
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Which is?
Towards a hard core authoritarian Islamic state with RTE as Caliphate. If he gets his way you can kiss any pretense of democracy goodbye.
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If he gets his way you can kiss any pretense of democracy goodbye.
Erdogan is reported to have said: Democracy is like a train. When you get to your station, you get off. Turkey may be pulling into Erdogan's station.
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If he gets his way you can kiss any pretense of democracy goodbye.
Erdogan is reported to have said: Democracy is like a train. When you get to your station, you get off. Turkey may be pulling into Erdogan's station.
So what exactly does that mean for Brits Abroad?
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Towards a hard core authoritarian Islamic state with RTE as Caliphate.
I'm not wishing to be pedantic, but just pointing out that a Caliph (Islamic ruler) is the ruler of a Caliphate (Islamic area). :)
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So what exactly does that mean for Brits Abroad?
I don't think anyone could give you a definitive answer on that Bernie. Only time will tell.
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Towards a hard core authoritarian Islamic state with RTE as Caliphate.
I'm not wishing to be pedantic, but just pointing out that a Caliph (Islamic ruler) is the ruler of a Caliphate (Islamic area). :)
I bow to your greater knowledge KKOB, but you know exactly what I meant. He wants Turkey to follow strict Islam, to abandon any idea of western, democratic freedoms and to elevate himself to a position of dictator in charge of everything.
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A Caliphate, as I understand it, is an Islamic grouping where nation states are irrelevant and is instead an entire region which is ruled by a single head. Something which Islamic State/Daesh would like to create and which the Ottoman Empire actually achieved. The problem for Erdogan is ... the populations of which other country are clamouring for him to be their leader? His closest soul mates, and fellow Sunnis, are Saudi Arabia but I don't see the Saud royal family embracing him as their boss. Do you? He may have to settle for just being a Sultan and not a Caliph.
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He wants Turkey to follow strict Islam, to abandon any idea of western, democratic freedoms and to elevate himself to a position of dictator in charge of everything.
Absolutely Lee.
Colwyn, if we want to be REALLY pedantic, yes, he wants to be a Sultan, as a Caliph must be able to trace his bloodline back to, and be a religious successor to the prophet, Muhammad (Muhammad ibn ʿAbdullāh).
There's a very interesting 3 part video on the Al Jazeera website about The Caliphs.
http://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2016/the-caliph-islamic-history/index.html
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Colwyn, if we want to be REALLY pedantic, yes, he wants to be a Sultan, as a Caliph must be able to trace his bloodline back to, and be a religious successor to the prophet, Muhammad (Muhammad ibn ʿAbdullāh).
There's a very interesting 3 part video on the Al Jazeera website about The Caliphs.
http://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2016/the-caliph-islamic-history/index.html (http://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2016/the-caliph-islamic-history/index.html)
I'm sure the little technicality of bloodlines can be fixed. After all a succession of Ottomans, whose ancestors lived in Central Asia when the Prophet was about, manged to get the job! I'll look forward to the video, it is not a topic frequently covered on UK TV - unlike Greek history.
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Oh heck what have I started !! I'll leave KKOB and Colwyn to thrash out the finer points and just say that life will not be so pleasant in Turkey in the future if RTE continues with his agenda and who is there left to stop him?
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Don't worry Lee. Colwyn and I gave up thrashing many moons ago.
Colwyn, it's a 3-parter. The 1st is available now and the other 2 will be in the next couple of weeks.
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I suppose I am naive in thinking an explanation for removing the judges would be required. Hard to imagine nobody would question and ask why. I think I understand where this is heading but can't quite see the relevance/importance of the judges specifically in his quest for power? I'm probably missing the obvious - sorry.
In any democracy there are three things that need to be independent of the other. It's called separation of powers.
There is the legislative body - parliament. The judiciary - courts and judges. And the executive - the police and in some cases the army. These three things together are the government.
If the parliamentary body exceeds its powers it can be challenged in a court of law. For example in the UK this government has been challenged several times recently in a coury of law and lost because it has been found to have broken the law. Currently 28 Conservative Members of Parliament are being investigated by the relevant Police Authorities because of allegedly overspending during the 2015 General Election. If there is evidence to support these allegations it will go to court. When (if) they are proved guilty the judges will decide the punishment in accordance with the law.
If there is no separation of powers because there is no independence from the other there is no democracy.
By removing the judges here it is possible to replace them with other judges that are not independent, or to put it bluntly support a certain view point in accordance with the the view of the legislative body.
What this is all about is the plans to change the constitution as I mentioned already and the opportunity being taken to remove those that might seek to challenge or stop that from happening.
By the way Bernie I'm not back yet it's just that for the most part I've only got my phone with internet access and CBF is really hard to see and write on as the text is minute. Apologises in advance for any typos. If only there was a CBF app ☺
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Thanks Nichola, I'm trying hard to understand in my way and just leads to more questions.
So there isn't even a pretence of democracy happening now - nobody will question or challenge the removal of the judges because there is no separation of power?
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Lots of people will question it but it won't do any good. And, if they are on the list, they'll probably end up in prison. Foreigners are safe - for now, and probably for quite a long time yet.
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Theoretically there is but in practice this is being eroded Bluwise
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Off topic but Tapatalk is an app that you can use for CBF (and many other forums) on your phone.
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I am treading carefully on disagreeing with Nichola because I put considerable weight on her opinion. But it does strike me that the theory of the separation of powers is very much a European/American theory; indeed a great many European countries have only come to it in recent years (since WWII). I know the 3 elements was a fundamental component of the UK 'O Level' British Constitution syllabus but what does democracy mean elsewhere in the world? Erdogan has often complained "I've been elected.That's democratic. Still they complain. What more do they want?". He doesn't say that any more because he doesn't care any more. A lot of the world doesn't recognize that democracy requires a free judiciary, or a free press, or even freedom of speech. In short the notion of "civil society" is alien to many countries in the world - and probably a lot of UK citizens don't know what it means either - but they know that democracy is supposed to be linked to freedom - and that freedom rests upon freedom of speech and access to an open legal system. Thinking about it a bit more you realize that a civil society also encompasses trade unions and professional associations, pressure groups, petitions, and - horror of horrors - street protests.
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If it helps Colwyn my husband agrees that Turkey has recognized separation of powers.
He also agrees with the content of my post at the top of this page. That the theory in practice is being eroded.
Separation of powers serve to provide checks and balance to ensure that no one element of government exceeds its authority. Clearly it's fairly obvious that the balance ihas changed and continues to change. There were a lot of changes in personel in the Police service after Gezi and indeed after the 'alleged' free passing of arms and oil across the Syrian border...
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How is all this conflict playing out in Fethiye area? Are the shops open now?
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Nothing closed. If it wasn't for the cashpoint and petrol queues then you wouldnt know.
42 helicopters missing and reports of a 2nd attempt.
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42 helicopters missing
Probably been sold to Daesh ?
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If we assume that these events “ tighten “ and strengthen Erdogan’s position and hold on power what does that mean he will actually do with it ?
We here phrases like “Religious Conservative” and “Executive Presidency” but what are his actual STATED aims for the country. I don’t mean theories, speculation, opinions and articles in the Daily Mail – what has he ACTUALLY SAID his intentions are for domestic social and foreign policies ?
Any one know ?
PS - also exclude any conspiracy theories........
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We dont know for certain but have a good idea.
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Rather than study what Erdogan says in public statements, would it not be more instructive to look at what he has actually done. He has been in power for 13 years now so we have plenty of material to go on. He has closed a number of newspapers critical of the AKP and installed AKP supporters in place of the original owners and editors. He has fired thousands of senior police and military officers and replaced them with AKP supporters. Similarly he has replaced secularist judges with AKP supporters. He has pursued an erratic policy towards the Kurdish population, particularly in the South East blowing hot and cold over social improvement programmes versus military threat. It is claimed that he, his family and his friends have corruptly acquired vast wealth. Is this a factual statement? It certain seems highly likely.
On the other hand, under his leadership Turkey's economic performance has (until recently) been strong and (again until recently) monetary stability has been impressive in comparison with previous decades. Investment in education increased from 7.5bn lira in 2002 (pre-AKP Govt.) to 34bn lira in 2011, compulsory education has increased from 8 years to 12, the number of universities has doubled, and education of girls and women has been promoted. And much else.
In short, as with any politician, you can cherry pick the bad bits or the good bits to suit your own tastes, values or beliefs. What clearly worries people is the increasingly authoritarian tone of his current statements and the actions taken to back them up.
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In answer to Phil's question. One bring back capital punishment. Two issued extradition documents for Gulen and other individuals from the Gulen movement.
And what Colwyn said ☺
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Latest news
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkey-coup-pm-suspends-annual-leave-for-over-three-million-civil-servants-a7142921.html
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A Turkish correspondent on BBC said yesterday that were 10,000 judges in Turkey and, of these, 3,000 have now been sacked. That's a huge proportion and it isn't clear how the judicial system is going to work in the near future.
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I just heard a very interesting interview with Edward Luttwak; the author of Coup d'Etat: A Practical Handbook (1968). His view of the recent events in Turkey is that Erdogan and pals had planned a purge of Gulenists in the military and judiciary. A list of thousands was already drawn up and was to have enacted at dawn on Saturday. However, the information was leaked to some of the people on the list and a coup was hastily arranged. This could explain (i) why the coup was so badly organized and (ii) how the Government were able to target those to be sacked and arrested so rapidly. It makes quite a bit of sense to me and I consider it worth thinking about.
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This is quite interesting....
http://www.yellali.com/news/article/300/what-is-happening-in-turkey
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However, the information was leaked to some of the people on the list and a coup was hastily arranged. This could explain (i) why the coup was so badly organized and (ii) how the Government were able to target those to be sacked and arrested so rapidly.
Colwyn, as far as I'm aware there was no "leak" as such, it was common knowledge within the Military that the majority, if not all, of those suspected to have links to the Gulen organisation were either going to be sidelined, retired or sacked as part of the annual review system during this coming August. As far as I'm aware there were to be no arrests, just a very precise removal of those the government felt to be untrustworthy - mass arrests would have damaged moral within the military, even amongst those considered to be loyal to the regime.
What is starting to become clear is that MiT were well aware of the unrest within certain areas of the military and this raises the question "did MiT actively encourage the plotters?". I don't think I'm the only one who thinks they know the answer to that one!
There is so much information flying about that it's difficult to separate the lies and gossip from the truth - in fact I'm not so sure the "the truth" will see the light of day for a very long time.
This is quite interesting....
http://www.yellali.com/news/article/300/what-is-happening-in-turkey
Yes, you're right - it is interesting. Bet there's not many Erdogan opponents making up the total from street interviews...
JF
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An image of all those journists going to prison, puts a new meaning into "writers block" also of note as I think bojo's grand father himself a journist was murdered outside of a police station by an agry mob, many moons ago.
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https://www.rt.com/news/351995-wikileaks-attack-turkey-documents/
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Now teaching staff are purged!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36838347?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central%3FSThisFB
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This includes 1,500 University Deans. Turkey has 180 universities so that averages out at over 8 Deans per university. If we take the local Mugla University and the very large Istanbul University as examples they have 18 and 17 faculties respectively and that translates into 18/17 deans. So taking out 8 deans is over a third of senior university staff purged as the average trend. A serious hole in higher education.
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This includes 1,500 University Deans. Turkey has 180 universities so that averages out at over 8 Deans per university. If we take the local Mugla University and the very large Istanbul University as examples they have 18 and 17 faculties respectively and that translates into 18/17 deans. So taking out 8 deans is over a third of senior university staff purged as the average trend. A serious hole in higher education.
Its actually ALL deans, at least according to HDN's (http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/thousands-of-public-employees-suspended-after-failed-coup-attempt-in-turkey-.aspx?pageID=238&nID=101828&NewsCatID=341) latest:
"Elsewhere, Turkey’s Higher Education Board (YÖK) has demanded the resignation of all deans on duty at all private and state universities throughout the country. The resignation of 1,557 deans was demanded by YÖK, of which 1,176 are from state universities and 401 are from private universities."
JF
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Now 25 TV & radio stations have just had their licences revoked, stations like Kanal Türk and Bugün TV who were pretty good at getting news out of Turkey when others failed.
JF
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There are still reports that "several" Turkish naval ships are "missing" together with Admiral Veysel Kosele, the commander of the Turkish navy.
Is there a Turkish Triangle ?
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And 42 helicopters
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So what are the theories regarding the missing ships and helicopters.
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That theyre most likely hiding in Greece.
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Plus 2 helicopters containing 25 Special Forces Operatives.
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So what are the theories regarding the missing ships and helicopters.
Well, the 14 missing ships could be in either the Aegean or Black Sea. Seems a bit bloody careless to have mislaid them like that. I wonder what their insurers will have to say about it ? ;)
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What's all this wiki leaks and Turkish government emails About? Now wiki leaks has been hacked..
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Now wiki leaks has been hacked..
I bet they're hacked-off about that. ;)
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Many 1000s of emails have been made public.
On Twitter theyre ridiculing the whole wiki thing as one of the emails is a recipe for Irnak desert ( a semolina based desert)
So its all become a bit of a farce but Im sure more delicate info will surface.
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Interesting survey on yellali
http://www.yellali.com/news/article/300/what-is-happening-in-turkey
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and now this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/20/turkey-bans-academics-from-leaving-country-in-unprecedented-crac/
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BBC New reporting that 50.000 people are now suspended or sacked from their jobs? It is also saying that Erdogan is holding emergency talks with The Security council this afternnon...
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I'm in Greece, aegean island Leros, no sightings of Turkish navy as yet!
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I will ask the more knowledgeable of you that it was mentioned on BBC that Erdogan MAY order a state of emergency.. How does that afftect Turkey? and would it mean The Foreign office stopping flights to Turkey?
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The news I've got is that Turkey is adopting "emergency measures" which, I guess, is subtly different from "state of emergency" which is a situation of national danger or disaster in which a government suspends normal constitutional procedures in order to regain control. RTE would, I am sure, say that he is control of the country but, nevertheless would be very happy to suspend constitutional rule for a while, or longer, to lock up the 50,000 people so far targetted. If he did declare a state of emergency then it would surely require the FO to consider their advice very seriously. If a few/many UK citizens were killed after FO advice that it was safe then it would come under considerable criticism
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Reading the article in the Telegraph leaves me wondering how he can demand that people overseas return to Turkey.
Am I reading it wrong?
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Academics working abroad may well hope to return to Turkey one day. Even if they don't, they have family and friends still living there and the police could make life difficult for them. The two Turkish academics I know who work in the UK return to Turkey each year in the summer. Will RTE let them come back to Bristol?
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I should add that I emailed my two friends earlier today expressing my dismay about what is happening to academics in Turkey and hoping their family and friends are safe. They used to work in a small private university in Istanbul. Despite it being funded by an Islamic foundation (vakf) it is what we would call a "liberal" university. I imagine they are worried for their former colleagues. I don't know whether they will reply, be allowed to reply, but if they do I'll let you what they say (to the extend I can without breaking their confidentiality).
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Not many folks in certain positions using email right now, especially those under scrutiny.
JF
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Thanks John, that's what I expected.
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BBC news is stating that the PM has declared a 3 month state of emergency.(10 pm uk time).
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Anyone know the implications of this yet?
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If you look on the FCO website and look at France, it explains 'State of Emergency'
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But we will have to wait to see how much of this law they will use.
permalinkembed
[–]elkos 5 points 55 minutes ago
Can someone do a an ELI5 translation for English speakers?
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[–]fnsv 9 points 41 minutes ago
TL;DR
1) Limits on the time people can spend outside, curfews
2) Limits on where and when people can gather and how many
3) Searching persons and their vehicles and houses without a warrant and the ability to take anything as evidence
4) It will be mandatory to carry ID papers on you all the time if you are visiting an area that's not your home town
5) ANY printing press may be banned or will require approval
6) Any voiced broadcast whether it be radio, TV or film will depend on approval
7) Inspection of all theater plays, depending on approval
8) Rending persons whom may be thought to be harmful for public peace unable to enter or leave certain areas, or settle down
9) Banning or making all public demonstrations in open or closed spaces depend on approval
10) Delaying the firing of workers for 3 months
11) The ability to halt all activities of any foundation on a case by case basis for 3 months
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[–]HatFullOfGasoline 2 points 39 minutes ago
thank you. and this is all based on the 1980 state of emergency, right? not an announcement of what it specifically means for the next three months?
Some idea of what the last one was like.
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There is a state of emergency in France (just extended). Erdogan is the difference....
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different circumstances as well mercury.
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Any idea of the details of the curfews please? Areas affected and times. Holidays booked for August and September but wouldn't be happy having to be back in the hotel at 9pm for instance.
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There is nothing in place as yet, and the likelihood is that any curfews that are imposed will not be in touristic areas.
The state of emergency may bring a bit of stability in the short term, but no one really knows. Best advice is to be guided by the FCO web site, and make your own personal decisions based on the circumstances at the time you're due to travel.
JF
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I have heard from one of my Turkish academic friends. He writes "we have lost our home country. I don't know whether I would ever go back to live in Turkey again".
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Colwyn, I respect a Lot of what you write on here, I am wandering if you would share your interpretation of the current situation, and what you think it will lead to? Thanks markar
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Just watched Turkish news stating State of Emergency will have no impact on people other than more police patrols and stops and no curfews.
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And one of my Turkish academic friends says that Turkey will emerge from this stronger, more secure and stable.
He urged me to continue living my dream and that I'm safer here than in London.
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I have heard from one of my Turkish academic friends. He writes "we have lost our home country. I don't know whether I would ever go back to live in Turkey again".
And one of my Turkish academic friends says that Turkey will emerge from this stronger, more secure and stable.
Those quotes kinda sum up the issue in Turkey just now, it really is a country divided.
JF
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another development... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkey-coup-attempt-human-rights-president-erdogan-purge-turkish-military-a7148166.html
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I have heard from one of my Turkish academic friends. He writes "we have lost our home country. I don't know whether I would ever go back to live in Turkey again".
And one of my Turkish academic friends says that Turkey will emerge from this stronger, more secure and stable.
Those quotes kinda sum up the issue in Turkey just now, it really is a country divided.
JF
Yes John a bit like Brexit
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Oh dont bring that up again...!!
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Colwyn, I respect a Lot of what you write on here, I am wandering if you would share your interpretation of the current situation, and what you think it will lead to? Thanks markar
That's kind of you to say so, but I don't have any crystal ball here. We will be in a better position to judge after a week's experience of the state of emergency. What strikes me immediately is that the emergency is very narrowly targeted. It is aimed at Gulen supporters. To the extent that Gulen supporters are indeed ensconced in senior positions in Turkey this is likely to be due to his programme of setting up Hizmet (service or duty} schools. These schools have a very strong reputation for academic excellence coupled with a strong sense of public service. They have turned many tens of thousands of highly qualified school leavers who go on to do extremely well in further and higher education. Upon graduation they are then very strong candidates for recruitment into armed forces, judiciary, education, civil service and even journalism. Not surprisingly they are likely to promoted into high positions in their chosen professions.
This may have double-edged consequences. On the one hand ordinary people, expats and tourists are not targets and not under threat in the short term. On the other hand, the purge has already led to the suspension, sacking or arrest of 60,000 Turks who are likely to amongst the best educated and most able in the country. What will this do to the economic and social development of Turkey in the middle or long term? And then, once all opposition is removed, what will Erdogan do next with his increased power?
[P.S. I believe Gulen schools have a similar reputation for academic excellence where they have been set up in the USA and is just one of the reasons which USGov is likely to resist extradition.]
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thanks for your replies its still very worrying as this beautiful country with all its history is in such a mess at the moment and tourists are been put off from visiting. over the past 22 years we have visited many resorts and places of interest hope things settle soon and Turkey will rise from all this turmoil a much better country
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Erdogan, Obama and Plan B.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/21/world/europe/obama-erdogan-turkey-coup-attempt.html?emc=edit_th_20160721&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=48388843
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(https://s32.postimg.org/7o2hi95j5/genuine_50_cal_browning_machine_gun_round_inert.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/7o2hi95j5/)
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“Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority; still more when you superadd the tendency of the certainty of corruption by authority.”“Despotic power is always accompanied by corruption of morality.”
Lord Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton
From 1834 to 1902
Nuff said
BB :(
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Latest advice from UK.Gov suggests a few interesting days in Istanbul: "further gatherings planned in Istanbul: the fans of Galatasaray, Fenerbahce and Besiktas will gather in Istiklal street from 9pm on 22 July; the co-chair of the HDP party, Selahattin Demirtas is holding a rally on 23 July at 1:30pm in Gazi Sehir Parki and the opposition CHP party is planning a gathering in Taksim square at 6pm on 24 July". We will see how opposition rallies will be treated under state of emergency.
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Some interesting reading re the state of emergency
https://attwiw.com/2016/07/21/the-state-of-your-state-of-emergency/
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That link doesn't seem to be working?
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Worked ok for me Bluwise.
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OK thanks, must be my lappy having a hissyfit ;D
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Apologies Anne, it works! Interesting read too.
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Another blow for the Army. The Jandarma will now be separated from the Army and will fall under the control of the Interior Ministry.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/07/turkey-shake-security-forces-failed-coup-160722135138655.html
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Some interesting reading re the state of emergency
https://attwiw.com/2016/07/21/the-state-of-your-state-of-emergency/ (https://attwiw.com/2016/07/21/the-state-of-your-state-of-emergency/)
Yes, interesting perspective - not so sure that some of his facts are correct though, especially his assertions re the 1980 coup and the SoE (suspension of ECHR) allowing Turkey to use capital punishment.
Anyway, it's always good to hear an American having a rant about "human rights", my irony meter kinda went of the scale there...
JF
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John it went were??? ;D ;D
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Has anyone noticed an increased amount of police/ military pressance in the Calis fethiye
Area.
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Not particularly. Why do you ask?
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Has anyone noticed an increased amount of police/ military pressance in the Calis fethiye
Area.
There's always an increased presence during the holiday season.
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Been to Calis 3 times this week, no sight of Police.seen the flower man, and the shoe cleaner. ;D ;D
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No sign of police. Not even the usual Jandarma stop in Ovacik this morning
Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk
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In May our driver and us were stopped on the way from Dalaman ( around by the tunnel can't remember the exact place). That was the only place, didn't see them stopping people's in any other area, which was unusual. I thought there would of been an increase to the normal holiday presence.
Markar
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Not even the usual Jandarma stop in Ovacik this morning
They might be a bit confused about what they do now - chain of command has been stripped from military and they are now part of Ministry of Interior. Almost like a private government army.
JF
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MarKar, that's not too unusual. There have been randomly placed police checks on the road to / from the airport for 2 or 3 years, they're usually by traffic police. I was stopped by one by Yaniklar, produce documents for vehicle + passport & a breathalyser (the reading was zero)
One of my friends, who lived in Ciftlik, was stopped over 10 times in a year!
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Justice Minister Bekir Bozdag said in an interview with Turkey's Kanal 7 television station on Sunday that anyone who suggests the coup attempt was staged likely had a role in the insurrection, which was defeated by loyalist forces and pro-government protesters.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/07/turkey-investigates-coup-attempt-hoax-160724131049911.html
Nobody's explained to me what MY role was.
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It would make more sense to move the traffic checks around than keep them to the same places.
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This is not helpful
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/692730/SAS-troops-poised-to-EVACUATE-Britons-from-Turkey-amid-fear-of-SECOND-military-coup
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So how reliable is the express for News?
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About as reliable as a paper aeroplane is for getting to Dalaman
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I Google it, is on You tube,the star and the mirror...but is this what was on the cards anyway..standby measures just in Case?
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How on Earth could the SAS enter an under military coup country and get the quoted figure of 50,000 Brits out? It's utter nonsense. Why even spend seconds pondering this rubbish.
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Thank you Scunner. :-[ :)
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Yes thank you Scunner I was very worried when i read it earlier...
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It's utter claptrap!!! OK, could imagine a worst case scenario of holiday makers being evacuated, but can hardly see the UK welcoming back ex-pats like me, with everything here, but bugger all in the UK, with open arms. I'm happy to stay put because the UK owes me nothing.
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This is exactly the kind of news they want to spread against Turkey.
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Dail Fail scaremongering as usual : :)
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The Daily Fail are running with a story "according to Amnesty International" that 10,000 plotters are being tortured, beaten and raped.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3705904/Turkey-coup-plotters-tortured-held-stress-positions-denied-food-water-medicine-says-Amnesty-International.html
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They're probably not that far off the mark with that one.
JF
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Well, if it's male rape they're referring to, we could expect to see a number of blindfolded individuals being launched off of high rise buildings soon.
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https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/07/turkey-independent-monitors-must-be-allowed-to-access-detainees-amid-torture-allegations/
JF
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JohnF's link is worth a read...
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Just read it.
Disturbing.
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Can I ask hypothetical question, what would happen if a tourist were to be arrested in Turkey while they are under state of emergency? ( Not that I am planning anything illegal you understand).
Markar
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Suggest you watch "Midnight Express".
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Suggest you watch "Midnight Express".
If its in relation to Turkey, I'd suggest you don't watch Midnight Express.
Pure fiction, shot in Malta and half the characters speaking Maltese...
JF
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But in relation to the real Turkey of today the Amnesty International report is all too credible. When we've seen what Erdogan's security forces do in public under the scrutiny of international news teams including TV (e.g. in Gezi Park) we can imagine what they can do in the secrecy of cells. It is hardly a surprise that the (alleged) coup has let loose these dark and evil forces. Tourists needn't worry unless they are haunted by a social conscience.
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Can I ask hypothetical question, what would happen if a tourist were to be arrested in Turkey while they are under state of emergency? ( Not that I am planning anything illegal you understand).
Markar
Don't you think its according what they were arrested for, what punishment they would get?
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It is hardly a surprise that the (alleged) coup has let loose these dark and evil forces.
They've always been loose. Ask the folks in places like Diyabakir...
JF
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Ah. Didn't know that.
Harrowing nonetheless but obviously nothing to do with Turkey!!
Will try not to get arrested in Malta!
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Iv'e just watched news footage of detainees in Turkey, bound, kneeling and beaten black and blue. Covered in blood.
They showed a very large office building and said civilians were being "interrogated" in the left hand side and
Military in the right hand side. Gruesome.
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That's why I asked a hypothetical question, as in I have or never had any intention of doing anything illegal in Turkey, but in these uncertain times where non supporters of the government 'may' be being tortured ect while under arrest and interrogation and corruption is possibly riff, what are the chances? Say you got caught up in the middle of a demonstration while innocently strolling through fethiye. Would you have the same protection from the Britsh embassy while the country is under a state of emergency.
Markar
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Well they are investigating people who said the coup was a hoax now? according to the press.
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now accusing a US Army commander of involvement in paragraph five here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/25/turkish-foreign-minister-says-purge-of-ambassadors-next/
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Its just the old government blame game that they've been using for the past couple of years now - blame every bugger but themselves. I read somewhere recently (cant find link) that some are even suggesting Putin had something to do with it - that's one that isn't being shouted about in Turkey though, he's now the wee mans best buddy.
JF
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And he is off to visit his new bezzie next month.http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkish-president-erdogan-to-visit-russia-on-aug-9-says-minister-.aspx?pageID=238&nID=102082&NewsCatID=510
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Well, let's hope they don't let him get anywhere near the Big Red Button while he's there.
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Meanwhile, more sackings.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/hundreds-fired-by-turkish-companies-after-attempted-coup.aspx?PageID=238&NID=102048&NewsCatID=345
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To be honest mate, we could fill a multi page thread with those either sacked, suspended or being investigated.
I just lost two colleagues to "the purges". It's really getting close to home, so to speak.
JF
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The International Tennis Federation has cancelled all professional tournaments in Turkey until mid-September. That is a pity. I thought the most interesting tennis match I had seen was when the Istanbul crowd booed the AKP minister addressing them at the end of a tournament - and Erdogan described the tennis fans as "terrorists".
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Human Rights Petition
Amnesty International has just launched a petition calling upon Turkey to repect human rights in its response to the coup attempt. It says:
Dear President Erdogan,
I call on you to ensure:
- Turkish authorities respect human rights as they carry out investigations and release people where there is no evidence of criminal acts and grant fair trials;
- The prohibition of torture is absolute and can never be compromised or suspended. Amid torture allegations, independent monitors must be given access to detainees in all facilities. All detainees must have regular access to lawyers and family members;
- The state of emergency is not used as an excuse to crack down on peaceful dissenting voices or for widespread purges in civil society, media, the judiciary, education and other sections of society;
- Censorship of media simply for criticising government policy is outlawed, even in a state of emergency;
- Workers’ rights to challenge their suspensions or dismissals, in fair and transparent procedures, are upheld.
The petition is available here:
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/actions/turkey-crackdown-human-rights-coup-purge-torture?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=Mass&utm_campaign=Crisis%20and%20Short%20Term&utm_content=Post-coup%20Turkey_ecomm%20links (https://www.amnesty.org.uk/actions/turkey-crackdown-human-rights-coup-purge-torture?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=Mass&utm_campaign=Crisis%20and%20Short%20Term&utm_content=Post-coup%20Turkey_ecomm%20links)
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I've been away and out of wifi contact largely for the last couple of weeks although I have kept in touch via bits of tv news. I have just read this thread but note that nobody mentions what the local Turks think. The march yesterday was obviously fantastically well supported although it seemed to proclaim a desire for democracy as well as peace. My experience of many Fethiye locals is that they are very anti RTE. what seems to be their opinion of the regime currently, anyone know? Thanks.
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They're relieved the coup wasn't successful.
All political parties agree that a coup would have been a disaster for the country so this seems to be the priority for now and even people who dont like him feel he acted in the best way by calling people onto the streets to stop it
Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk
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They are on the streets every night in many towns, cities for Democracy whatever party they support they are all together on this one and celebrating the fact the Coup didnt succeed
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Istanbul today.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37003819
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BBC reporting one million on the streets.
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Great to see there is solidarity against the Coup.
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Turkey's prisons are full to the brim. I am sure that won't surprise anyone who has some knowledge of the country. So where are they going to put all the people arrested as part of the campaign against the "Gulen Terror Group"?
On an unrelated issue (according to the AKP) some 38,000 prisoners are to be released before the end of the end of their sentences.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37103965 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37103965)
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The Turkish government has sacked another 10,000 civil servants over the alleged coup attempt including more academics, teachers, health workers, prison guards and forensics experts. This adds to the 100,000 plus already sacked or suspended. This is as reported by Reuters.
[/size]http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-security-dismissals-idUSKBN12U04L (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-security-dismissals-idUSKBN12U04L)
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Pure anti Erdogan propaganda.
It was nowhere near 10,000 who were dismissed, it was only 9,703.
JF
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There are several very worrying news items being reported in the HDN today, mainly related to the
emergency powers new laws and his Sultanship.
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Aye, it makes depressing reading.
We've just finished a project and the web site, on the front page has a circular graphic of three coloured jigsaw pieces interlocking. At a review meeting last week one of the lawyers pointed out that they were coloured red, green and yellow with a white centre.
Unfortunately in the Turkey of today even using the colours of the Kurdish flag adjacent to each other is tantamount to being a member or supporter of a terrorist organisation.
We had to change the colours.
I'm actually growing a bit weary of it all now.
JF
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And so it goes on... it's the Cumhuriyet's turn now, editor in chief Murat Sabuncu was arrested yesterday along with several other journalist. They even lifted the cartoonist.
JF
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THE President now has the power to pick the rectors for uni's, and after extending the
"Emergency Powers" the government can appoint "trustees" onto the boards of ANY
company, whether the have any connection to Gulen, the coup or anything else.
Now there's a novel way of encouraging new investment into Turkey.
2
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THE President now has the power to pick the rectors for uni's,
Yes, I read that. Do you know whether this applies to state universities only or does it extend to foundation universities?
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The report doesn't make that clear, but can you imagine anyone else getting a say.?
And where are the opposition parties while all these laws and acts are being carried out.??
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400 chemists too
Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk
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15 " TERRORIST " Newspapers shut down plus 3 Media Agencies. >:( >:(
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Its never ending Kevin. I'm just a tiny wee cog in the legal sector in Istanbul, not even there full time, and the number of folks I know who have have been directly affected has been growing and growing over the past few months.
Have they all been members/supporters of terrorist organisations? I haven't a clue. What I do know is that some do not have a political (or terrorist) bone in their body.
It now looks like the death penalty is going to be back on the agenda and that the "presidential system" of government will end up being pushed through.
The death penalty will end any negotiations with the EU and it wouldn't surprise me if that wee chap Putin suddenly found a new BFF in Ankara, irrespective of the disagreements over Syria. I hope I'm wrong.
JF
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Not sure that "like" is the correct response, John but I did it anyway.
However, it appears that EU membership doesn't form any part of his immediate considerations.
I hope you're wrong - I suspect you're horribly accurate in your concerns.
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Let's hope not!
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I think you're spot on John, there's been a lot of coverage and outrage on Al Jazeera
and CNN about it all today. They were referring to meetings he was holding in HIS palace.
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Well, it looks like the men with big guns have suddenly become BFF's:
"Turkish Chief of General Staff Gen. Hulusi Akar and his Russian counterpart, Valery Gerasimov, held talks on Nov. 1 over military cooperation and regional issues regarding Syria and Iraq."
Source: HDN (http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/russian-turkish-chief-of-staff-talk-over-syria-mosul-russian-ministry-.aspx?pageID=238&nID=105645&NewsCatID=355)
JF