Author Topic: The release of the Lockerbie bomber  (Read 10963 times)

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Offline Colwyn

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The release of the Lockerbie bomber
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2009, 13:49:14 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by mike A

At last, a balanced post on the subject. Thank you Colwyn.


I wouldn't say my post was balanced, Mike. I come down very clearly on one side. However, since this side hadn't so far been voiced I thought it might give some balance to the thresd. I am sure my view will be a minority one on this forum but that is not a reason not to give it.

As to H's question whether I think similar cases should be treated similarly the answer is obviously "Yes". Kevin suggests we should treat compassionless bombers in a similarly uncompassionate way. I have already said that I am not letting bombers lead me in my thoughts and actions. His second point, about compassion for victims' families, is a more difficult one. I take the view that the criminal law is not there for the comfort of victims (nor their families) hard though that may sound. The criminal law is about the maintenance of society collectively, and the mark of a civilized society is the manner in which it treats its worst, least deserving and most uncompassionate members. If we forget that and decide to adopt the same tactics as the terrorists and treat them like-for-like then we descend into "The Horror" envisioned in Konrad's "Heart of Darkness" (and in the film "Apocalypse Now" that stole Konrad's plot).



Offline stoop

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The release of the Lockerbie bomber
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2009, 14:32:46 PM »
Colwyn - sorry to say this but this was nothing to do with Scottish justice - more the fact that the UK has some serious business lined up with Libya.

I must say though that if it was one of my famimly or friends who had died in that plane then I am not sure I could agree with his release.

Offline Colwyn

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The release of the Lockerbie bomber
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2009, 15:07:58 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by stoop

Colwyn - sorry to say this but this was nothing to do with Scottish justice - more the fact that the UK has some serious business lined up with Libya.

Do you think that spending more time in Turkey is leading you into the Turkish national pastime of building, selling and buying conspiracy theories?

Offline Highlander

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The release of the Lockerbie bomber
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2009, 15:11:26 PM »

"I am sure my view will be a minority one on this forum but that is not a reason not to give it".

Of course.

"As to H's question whether I think similar cases should be treated similarly the answer is obviously "Yes"".

The logical progression of that is that release is automatic in cases of terminal illness with a prognisis of 3 months or less. As I understand it, that is not the law as it stands today nor would I personally want it to be in the future.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2009, 15:12:31 PM by Highlander »

Offline Colwyn

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The release of the Lockerbie bomber
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2009, 16:06:41 PM »
H, I phrased this badly. I was not suggesting automatic release.vI was saying that I think all cases should be judged impassionately against the conditions and criteria of the law and not upon feelings about the character of the convict (obviously vile), the opinions of politicians in other countries (whether Obama or son of Gaddafi), the dogsbodies of the tabloid newspapers, or others. There are doubtless many factors to consider including assessment the convict's current threat to society (and I can imagine many with only a few months to live who could be an extreme threat) and the impact of release upon others likely to offend (i.e. does it lower the influence of deterrance). Not automatic release, but no-one should be excluded from consideration under circumstances of near-death because they deemed less human than others.

H, I imagine that you are of an age to rememebr the imprisonment of the Nazi politician, Rudolf Hess, who had a whole prison to himself until the day he died. At the end even the US Government, in agreement with those of the UK and France, thought he should be released. But inside he stayed because the USSR, as the fourth occupying power,  would not co-sign the release. Compassion is thinkable even for those involved in the extermination of over 6 million people.

Offline mike A

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The release of the Lockerbie bomber
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2009, 17:14:43 PM »
A minority of two Colwyn, it struck me that your post was based on some semblance of reality, rather than hearsay and propaganda.

Offline kevin3

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The release of the Lockerbie bomber
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2009, 17:21:40 PM »
Colwyn.Your views are as relevent as anyone elses,and I admire your humanity.I just disagree with your thinking.For civilised society to succeed the laws have to be acceptable to the law abiding majority.To do this it must consider their views,their fears,and yes,their comfort.In recent years the law has placed itself above the masses and started to dictate to them,to tell them what is,or is not good for them.They are not listening to public opinion,and that is dangerous for a civilised society.Laws will only work if people are prepared to abide by them.The laws of our country are very far from perfect,and if you have enough money,knowledge and influence you can live outside of them.Your posts on this are saying apply the laws to the letter.Public opinion is saying this decision to release the bomber is outrageous.I favour public opinion!! MPs put themselves above public opinion,to their cost.!I believe the legal profession will suffer the same fate.   :)

Offline Highlander

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The release of the Lockerbie bomber
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2009, 17:52:32 PM »
Kevin

You suggest that Colwyn's posts on this are saying apply the laws to the letter.

That surely has to be the case. Scots Law allowed for the release of Megrahi and therefore the Scottish Giovernment was bound to consider his application. I disagree with his decision, but Macaskill discharged his duty in accordance with the law prevailing at the time. The question of whether or not that particular law should be changed is another matter entirely.

I'm not sure that I can agree that Colwyn's assertion that compassion should be thinkable in all cases. Perhaps that would be the mark of a civilised society. I certainly would not have released either Megrahi or Hess.

Colwyn:

Can you clarify one thing for me, which I may have missed. Do you believe that MacAskill's decision was taken on compassionate grounds and compassionate grounds alone.

Offline kevin3

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The release of the Lockerbie bomber
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2009, 18:51:34 PM »
H.Colwyn is saying laws and judgements should be impassionate.I am saying they should'nt be.The legal system,(and some very large salaries)are funded by the law abiding masses.Their views HAVE to be listened to.If Ali al Megrahi has been treated impassionately,Why did the Scottish Justice Minister visit him in his cell??This is the first time in history this has happened.Jack Straw sent a doctor to see Ronnie Biggs.Downing Street admits it has been in "discussions"with the Scottish Minister about this case.WHY,if it is a matter for Scottish law.??If anyone believes Macaskill made this descision on his own they still believe in the tooth fairy.The truth will out in the next few months.Our government has walked over too many people.Someone will spill the beans,and I think it will come from "within"

Offline Colwyn

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The release of the Lockerbie bomber
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2009, 19:02:22 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by Highlander

Colwyn:

Can you clarify one thing for me, which I may have missed. Do you believe that MacAskill's decision was taken on compassionate grounds and compassionate grounds alone.


This is impossible for me to tell; I cannot delve into his interior motivations. If you re-read my first post I applauded the rigour of the Scottish legal system not the actions of any one man. He, it seemed to me, was enacting its tenets because that was what his position required him to do. Perhaps he did it for other reasons. But then he himself might be held to account for this by some other lawyer. It seems to me that the system has worked so that is what I have said. In the same way, I would support the jury system even if I thought a couple of jurors might be a bit dodgy.

But don't you think this is irrelevent to our discussion, H? I haven't introduced any aside as to whether or not al-Megrahi was actually the bomber (although I note that many of those speaking for the families of Scottish victims are fare far from convinced). And, on your side, you have not suggested any conspiracy by Gordon Brown or the SNP or anyone else to deliver a "political" result. We have argued instead over the principle of whether it is right to grant compassion even to the most evil of people. We disagree; but I have been interested by the discussion and am willing to leave it in a state of respected difference.




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