Author Topic: If We Could All Vote - Would the Scotland Vote Be As Close?  (Read 8060 times)

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Offline Scunner

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Re: If We Could All Vote - Would the Scotland Vote Be As Close?
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2014, 18:18:01 PM »
Yes, that is where the progression of thought ended for me too.



Offline Rimms

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Re: If We Could All Vote - Would the Scotland Vote Be As Close?
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2014, 19:35:26 PM »

Re: Jim Swift.  Any credibility he had is destroyed by his passion for a No vote.  He is a Tory councillor from a very affluent area of Scotland where the level of deprivation and poverty is way below the average.  His brand of referendum economics is nothing more than Better Together propaganda.

JF

John

I am not accusing you of taking either side on this debate, I don't know your politics and it's none of my business, however, I must say that the part of your response quoted above just about sums up what I see from 'Yes' supporters. Not a word of the six minute presentation given in the video is disputed, let alone discussed, yet the fact that the guy is a conservative councillor is held up as a reason to disregard every word he delivers. If he was a Green Party councillor or a Labour councillor, would it have made a difference to the content?

I honestly have not followed this as closely as I maybe should, being inside the 'Fethiye Bubble' gets you that way, but the reading I have done and the various interviews I've heard given all seem to contain quite a bit of detail (which of course can be disputed) on the No side, yet on the Yes side when you strip away the fervour, you get down to the "fairer independent Scotland" argument, which apart from the independent bit, nobody seems able to explain.

Offline desmartinson

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Re: If We Could All Vote - Would the Scotland Vote Be As Close?
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2014, 06:07:42 AM »
Yes, that is where the progression of thought ended for me too.
Ah!! if only my Maggie were here Keith, she would have sorted this mess out.   ;)   ;) ;   :)

Offline Jack13

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Re: If We Could All Vote - Would the Scotland Vote Be As Close?
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2014, 09:10:11 AM »
steady des. thanks to YOUR
 Maggie we are in this mess.

Offline Scunner

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Re: If We Could All Vote - Would the Scotland Vote Be As Close?
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2014, 10:05:53 AM »
I hated Maggie with a passion but again for the record, the Scottish people who claim they got Tory Governments they didn't vote for, voted Tory nearly as much as nationalist SNP in the last General Election of 2010 (491,000 for Salmond, 412,000 for Cameron). Oh and more than two and and half times either of those for Labour.

Even with that huge Labour win over the border, like for the rest of us it didn't matter who won - they will have got a Government the majority didn't vote for. But the Yes campaign describe Tory rule as some freak hardship. That's democracy, as mentioned by Apollo (the CBF member, not the Greek God).

Offline Toky

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Re: If We Could All Vote - Would the Scotland Vote Be As Close?
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2014, 10:13:26 AM »
We get who we get because of lazy ignorant people who just dont vote, yet they shout the loudest when they dont like things. For years now, there's been a really poor turn out at local and national elections and a lot of it, is apathy.  Well I dont think anyone has the right to moan if they haven't got off their lazy backsides and got themselves to the polling stations. Worry is now, people who haven't voted for years/never, are off to vote now, and from some of them I know, its all for the wrong reasons. IMHO

Offline Scunner

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Re: If We Could All Vote - Would the Scotland Vote Be As Close?
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2014, 10:46:01 AM »
  Yes I agree with all that - the strange thing for me specifically with this vote is that a rarely speak to anyone who will be voting yes, but nearly all the window posters, flags etc are Yes ones.

Seems to me the Yes campaign is a noisy one, and the No a quiet, understated one. This I suppose is quite normal - people get far more excited about the prospect of change than the prospect of keeping things as they are.

The poll that gave the Yes campaign it's first majority was received by Alec as evidence of the turning tide. To me it was just what the No campaign needed - a massive wake up call to all those who want to keep the Union but wouldn't have voted because they thought it was going to be a no vote regardless.

Just a shame the Yes poll brought all the "big players" rushing up from Westminster. They too believed it would never happen till that day and Salmon etc crowed that they were in panic. Sadly, he was right - and it gave just that impression.

But a No it will be  :)

Offline JohnF

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Re: If We Could All Vote - Would the Scotland Vote Be As Close?
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2014, 12:00:07 PM »
I am not accusing you of taking either side on this debate, I don't know your politics and it's none of my business, however, I must say that the part of your response quoted above just about sums up what I see from 'Yes' supporters. Not a word of the six minute presentation given in the video is disputed, let alone discussed, yet the fact that the guy is a conservative councillor is held up as a reason to disregard every word he delivers. If he was a Green Party councillor or a Labour councillor, would it have made a difference to the content?

Well yes, it would.  Substitute the party for any of them and substitute the content to reflect their partys viewpoint and the same applies - they lose credibility.  Maybe we're suffering from propaganda overload here and its bringing out the cynic in me, but to date, I haven't heard, read or watched any honest appraisal of what will happen if its a Yes vote on Thursday.  All Mr Swift has done is regurgitate content (some of which is disputed) already out there from the Better Together campaign. 

For the record...  I am not a Yes supporter.

I honestly have not followed this as closely as I maybe should, being inside the 'Fethiye Bubble' gets you that way, but the reading I have done and the various interviews I've heard given all seem to contain quite a bit of detail (which of course can be disputed) on the No side, yet on the Yes side when you strip away the fervour, you get down to the "fairer independent Scotland" argument, which apart from the independent bit, nobody seems able to explain.

Don't knock the "Fethiye bubble" effect, there are times when it is an advantage - personally we're looking to immerse ourselves in an Andalucian bubble in the near future - the vote on Thursday isn't likely to affect us greatly, however it will affect our children, and our childrens children. 

To be fair, I have spoken to many Yes supporters and they do believe they have the blueprint for a fairer Independent Scotland, but then again, they would!

Unfortunately, like Toky said above too many folks are confusing this vote with the inherent Scottish feeling to want to "stick it to the English" at every possible opportunity and personalities, i.e. Salmond and Cameron.  Maybe we'd be better off with a two legged match at Wembley and Hampden between Salmonds XI and the DC All Stars...

JF

Offline Colwyn

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Re: If We Could All Vote - Would the Scotland Vote Be As Close?
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2014, 15:29:29 PM »

 
I believe that we are waiting for Colwyn to answer Rimms' post.

I answered this question three days ago while Hilary was getting ready to go out for dinner – which gave me plenty of time. Unfortunately, the case laid out was so powerful that, when I pressed the "Post" button, it crashed my internet connection. I concede that the impressive Turkish thunderstorm going on at the same time may have had some role in that as well. I couldn't be bothered to write it again – not knowing you were waiting for this – but here is a bit of a precis {with the thunder rumbling over the mountain again}.

 
To get a better perspective, I'd be interested to hear some of the lies put out by the no campaign. Could you enlighten me and also list who said it and when.


 
Big Lie Number One.
Scotland will not be able to use the £ if it votes for independence. This is utter nonsense from start to finish. No country can prohibit another country from using its currency. England cannot stop Scotland from using the Pound Sterling any more than the mighty United States of America can stop dozens of counties around the world from using the US $ - including North Korea {where most large business will not accept the N.K Won only $, Yuan or €} and Zimbabwe {where is is the only official currency}. This is not because these two countries are such good friends with the USA it gives them special permission to use their currency. Of course, when finally pressed hard enough to be forced to admit that this entire notion was bogus the “No” campaigners then “clarified” their position to say they really meant that Westminster would not agree to a currency union {see below}. This is entirely different but, perhaps hoping that a lot of people wouldn't notice this or wouldn't understand, “No” campaigners repeatedly returned to the “Scotland won't be able to use the pound" theme – the naughty little liars.

 
Who Said it and When? This would be a list that would stretch over many many pages. Just about every member of the no campaign said it, and said it over and over again. So did various Westminster ministers, politicians and puppet civil servants in the Treasury {who shouldn't be involved in this at all}.

 
What About the Currency Union? Following the final collapse of the big lie {when Darling was forced to admit this in the second televised debate} the notion of currency union had to be given great weightiness. It was now argued that it would be a tragic calamity for Scotland if it had a currency which was controlled by another country. What this ignores is that Scotland has a currency controlled by another country today – it is part of the UK package that the “No” campaign is trying to persuade the people of Scotland is so much better them Do you suppose that the Bank of England considers the needs of Scotland when it make policy decisions? Former Governor of the Bank of England, Eddie George, gave the lie to that years ago when he blurted out that unemployment in the North of England was a price worth paying to curb inflation in the South. If the BoE doesn't give a toss about the North of England, how much do you think it worries about Scotland?

Offline scorcher

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Re: If We Could All Vote - Would the Scotland Vote Be As Close?
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2014, 15:30:18 PM »
That's all as maybe JF, but I'm concerned that the cost of my breakfast marmalade might be going south not to mention cake and shortbread rises too!




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