Author Topic: Brexit means Brexit?  (Read 75786 times)

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Offline Colwyn

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Re: Brexit means Brexit?
« Reply #180 on: November 03, 2016, 12:12:47 PM »
Parliament should have a vote about when to enact Article 50 but not about whether it should be enacted
Blimey, you've said something with which I agree! In fact I would go further and say that Parliament should endorse May's March invoking of Article 50. If she hasn't worked out how we are going to proceed by then she'll never manage it. But before she gets her vote she'll have to come to the House to face questioning - Parliamentary Sovereignty and all that..

Offline villain

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Re: Brexit means Brexit?
« Reply #181 on: November 03, 2016, 16:56:46 PM »
Parliament's role is to now form a consensus for Brexit. It's not just about "when" but "how".

May's approach has been totally cack-handed. A refusal to give a "running commentary" and aiming to present the finished Brexit model as a fait accompli whilst simultaneously pressing the "Fire" button is just all wrong. Is Government by diktat what the Brexiters wanted - exchange the so-called tyranny of the EU with our own far more fearsome  variety? I honestly think she's the wrong person for the job. Fox and Davis in particular have proved to be well out of their depth. BoJo is mainly just a cheerleader. May is now forced to show her hand and her intentions (that's assuming she does actually have either)

Assuming the Supreme Court appeal goes the same way (and really, it should), Article 50 will require an Act of Parliament, passing through the Commons and then Lords.

Which brings me back to my earlier point about the Conservative Manifesto, which explicitly states (admittedly amongst other things) that the current administration will "safeguard" our position in the Single Market.  The House of Lords will not oppose the second or third reading of any government legislation promised in its election manifesto. A "Hard Brexit" would probably mean leaving the Single Market and I suggest could well be hotly opposed in the Lords.

A Hard Brexit will require a fresh mandate.

As Colwyn rightly stated previously, many Brexit voters knew what they were voting against, but I would imagine far less knew what they were actually voting for - and I'll say it again - do you want access to the Single Market? Customs Union? etc.  I think you ought to be making your minds up. .

If you don't like the EU, fine. But for God's sake don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

P.S. This is only going to get messier. That was only the first hurdle, and the government lost - there's loads more.


Offline stoop

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Re: Brexit means Brexit?
« Reply #182 on: November 04, 2016, 10:38:53 AM »
From a FB poster. Pretty much sums up what is happening. I just hope the Supreme Court sees sense before we head towards horrible times!


"My take on the judges decision. I'll start with a few quotes:

(sic.) "We will legislate in the first session of the next Parliament for an in-out referendum to be held on Britain’s membership of the EU before the end of 2017. We will negotiate a new settlement for Britain in the EU. And then we will ask the British people whether they want to stay in on this basis, or leave. We will honour the result of the referendum, whatever the outcome."
[Page 75, "The Conservative Party Manifesto 2015" Crown Publishing, 2015]

(sic.) "This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide."
[page 14, 'Why the Government believes that voting to remain in the European Union is the best decision for the UK', Crown Publishing, 2016]

I can't see how the referendum process could have been made ANY clearer. With live in a Parliamentary Democracy, but in this instance, Parliament chose to give THE PEOPLE the vote, in the form of a referendum. The government may have proposed the referendum, but it was Parliament themselves that enacted the referendum. They made the decision to give THE PEOPLE the choice.
Furthermore, the referendum leaflet  (sent to every single household) contained content that had been agreed across ALL the main parties, prior to publication.

It was clear: "The Government will implement what YOU decide".

They can use legal 'airs-and-graces' all they like, but it doesn't conceal the fact that they are taking tentative steps towards overturning what they consider an unexpected and unwelcome referendum result. It's now established that, from a legal perspective, the referendum is NOT 'legally-binding'. To me, the caveats suggest one of two things:

1. Either they were complacent/inept when they were scrutinising the law and drafting up the terms of the referendum.

or

2. It was entirely deliberate, in order to provide a legal 'get out clause' and thus, the intention was never to GENUINELY let the people decide.

Either way, it's not very good, is it? I think irrespective of whether you are pro or anti EU, you should find this latest legal-manoeuvring very unsettling, not for what it can achieve, but for what it represents. It basically ensures that the voice of unelected peers and MP's who wish to defy the wishes of their electorate, will ALWAYS supersede the voice of the people.

They are cleverly trying to "dress this up" by saying that it is to allow Parliament a voice on HOW Brexit is conducted, and not IF Brexit is conducted. Don't fall for this. This is a decision that will give MP's an opportunity to delay and ultimately kill off the result.

The term 'Parliamentary Democracy' has become an oxymoron. The word 'Democracy' comes from the Greek term 'demōs' meaning 'the people', and the definition of the term 'Democracy' is:

"The belief in freedom and equality between people, or a system of government based on this belief, in which power is EITHER held by elected representatives OR directly by the people themselves"

I would suggest that in this instance, the use of a referendum (authorised by Parliament, remember!) gave the democratic choice to the people directly.

This is nothing more than a cynical manoeuvre to SUPPRESS the democratic result. Wherever you sit on the 'Brexit' debate, this precedent SHOULD have you worried!"

Offline villain

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Re: Brexit means Brexit?
« Reply #183 on: November 04, 2016, 10:58:11 AM »
I don't see any problem here. We voted to leave, we're leaving and a British court has decided that we should let our elected British MPs work out the fine details of how we plan to leave in accordance with our constitution. Doesn't it tick every box on the Brexiteers' wish list?

Offline stoop

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Re: Brexit means Brexit?
« Reply #184 on: November 04, 2016, 11:05:20 AM »
Not at all! If you read the post above you will see that Parliament passed a bill for the referendum which in turn passed the power to the electorate. It was decided by the electorate that we should leave therefore there is no reason why parliament should have a vote on Article 50 as the government has a mandate from its people.

It has set a dangerous precedent and is designed to delay Brexit or even scupper it! I only hope it's overturned by the SC.

Offline villain

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Re: Brexit means Brexit?
« Reply #185 on: November 04, 2016, 11:32:23 AM »
So, according to your FB friend:

Prime Ministerial diktat = good

Parliamentary Scrutiny = bad

Judges = bad

Rule of Law = bad



What are that FB poster's proposed terms of exit from the EU? What is the electorate's proposed terms of exit? What is your proposed terms of exit?

Should we have another referendum on Hard or Soft Brexit?

Or should we let Parliament decide the terms?

Offline Colwyn

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Re: Brexit means Brexit?
« Reply #186 on: November 04, 2016, 11:53:11 AM »
Should we have another referendum on Hard or Soft Brexit?

Or should we let Parliament decide the terms?
What makes you think that anyone in the UK will be in a position to "decide the terms"?

Offline villain

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Re: Brexit means Brexit?
« Reply #187 on: November 04, 2016, 12:12:27 PM »
You're right, we have to agree them. A magic wand sure isn't going to do it.

Has anyone read the Court's judgement, BTW?

It's here:  https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/judgment-r-miller-v-secretary-of-state-for-exiting-the-eu-20161103.pdf

alternatively,  there's a shorter summary here: https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/summary-r-miller-v-secretary-of-state-for-exiting-the-eu-20161103.pdf

"The most fundamental rule of the UK's constitution is that Parliament is sovereign and can make and unmake any law it chooses...

...the Crown - i.e. the Government of the day - cannot by exercise of prerogative powers override legislation enacted by Parliament"

- Article 50 will change UK law. If Parliament makes a law, only Parliament can unmake it. It's not exactly a new principle, so why the surprise?

These are The Daily Mail's "Enemies of the State", by the way. How dare they uphold the UK constitution.

Offline villain

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Re: Brexit means Brexit?
« Reply #188 on: November 04, 2016, 12:20:32 PM »
Brexiters who are concerned by a delay to Brexit should not wait another month for an appeal which will most likely fail.

Instead they should ask the Prime Minister to put her proposals for Brexit to Parliament at the earliest opportunity.

Offline villain

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Re: Brexit means Brexit?
« Reply #189 on: November 07, 2016, 11:48:40 AM »
Hands up those who think that the referendum result is binding?

Confirmation of it being a non-binding referendum

(Section 5) “This Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of 2017. It does not contain any requirement for the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative  which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions.”

House of Commons briefing paper No 07212 on the European Union Referendum Bill 2015-16






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